From Rugby to Writer & Book Influencer: How Ben Mercer Reinvented Himself

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I'm talking with Ben Mercer, somebody I first connected with in 2019. I believe I met him through Kehe's community in a Slack group. He ended up taking my course, uh, Reinvent, which was a very early experiment I was doing, but was really excited about his journey, uh, after leaving rugby, uh, which he, he, which he played professionally early in his career. He was trying to chart a new path, uh, creating online, writing and exploring.

Uh, Ben's done a ton on his site now. I thought this would be a really interesting way to introduce him. He does writing, content strategy, ghostwriting, voiceover work, workshops, live reading, branded content, and sports consultancy. He's recently exploded on TikTok as sort of a book talker. Is that what you guys call yourself in the business?

[02:09] Ben Mercer: That is how we hashtag ourselves.

[02:11] Paul: Yes. And doing a ton more. Really inspired by his journey. I recently read, I started one of his Early books, Fringes, about his time in rugby. Recently just finished Endgame about how do you make a transition after sports. So he's a self-published author as well.

So much to dive into today. Welcome to the podcast, Ben.

[02:35] Ben Mercer: Hey, thanks for having me.

[02:37] Paul: So the question I always start with is exploring what are the scripts you grew up with that sort of told you this is what you're supposed to do as an adult? Now, you took an unconventional path. Pursuing sport pretty early in your life, but I'm wondering what were the scripts you grew up with around what you were supposed to do in life?

[02:59] Ben Mercer: Luckily, I'm a listener, a regular listener of yours, Paul, so I knew this was coming and I was having a think about it. And actually, my parents are both doctors, so, uh, we, we grew up with, you know, that's pretty traditional career path. It's sort of predicated around just working really hard from what I saw of it. You know, they were working long hours. And my mum was a GP, so general practitioner, kind of community doctor, someone who's super available to sort of the local community in Bristol where, where my parents went to university. And my dad was a surgeon, so he was someone who was getting called in in the middle of the night and sort of, you know, when things came up, and then having other stuff sort of scheduled throughout the day.

So he's someone who wasn't getting a lot of sleep. And I suppose the sort of work that they were doing seemed very— it seemed tough, it seemed like really rewarding, um, it seemed very linear and kind of obvious in a way. But they, they never kind of pushed doing that on any of us. I've got a brother and a sister as well. And, um, the, the other scripts and work, I suppose, came from our education. So we all went to quite an academic school in Bath where we were— yeah, where we grew up.

And, uh, everything was sort of you know, get good grades, get to a good university, and you can take that degree and really do anything you want. It was sort of pre-2008, um, yeah, pre, pre all that happening. And when I saw the older guys at school, you could kind of get a degree in English literature or geography or whatever, and you could take it to the City of London and go and work in finance or consultancy or anything like that. And, um, I suppose midway through our university studies, that that sort of promise ceased. But yeah, I think the sort of the scripts around work were very go to school, get the best grades, go to university, get a degree, take it to the city or to law or to medicine or whichever one of those careers you want to do.

[04:56] Paul: That's fascinating. I graduated in '07, so I sort of entered the working world before this global financial crisis, and There was the sense when I was in school that you could kind of just figure things out. Like if you're a smart person that went to college, you'd be taken care of, like everything would be okay. I think in '08 with the mass layoffs and how long it took to recover, I think people started re-questioning those scripts. What was that like? 'Cause that was halfway through university for you.

[05:30] Ben Mercer: For me, it wasn't such a big deal because I'd gone to English Lit, which was my kind of main interest. And, you know, in my mind I was always like, well, I could do a law conversion or I could go into kind of consulting, but I was always going to give professional rugby like a bash anyway. So while I was kind of seeing friends who were ahead of me in, you know, in these things, maybe they were first, last in, first out with some of these big banks, or some of my friends when they graduated were struggling with internships and sort of doing a lot of unpaid work trying to get their foot in the door. But for me, I, it was, it wasn't something I had to kind of contend with. Immediately, if anything, I was a bit, oh, I feel quite lucky that actually I'm going into a sector that's completely unaffected by, by those events.

And it was all, you know, once I finished uni, I couldn't wait to get into rugby and start doing that. So it was quite exciting. It was more a sort of observation case, I think, for me.

[06:24] Paul: When did you first become interested in— I mean, I know you were playing rugby, but when did you realize, oh wow, I— this could be a thing I could do?

[06:35] Ben Mercer: It was probably when I was about 15. So I was, I was one of those kind of irritating kids who was pretty good at most things. I was super sporty and I was super, uh, academic. So I was always juggling, playing loads of different sports, but rugby was definitely one of the ones I had the most aptitude for. And when I was 14 or 15, I got a letter from Bath Rugby, which is the local kind of— it's a Premiership top-flight team in England, but Bath's quite a small town and it's a rugby town, so it was quite exciting. And although there's loads of kids, you know, who get this letter and they kind of get 100 kids down and start filtering them down into a bit of a smaller cohort, but once I got that letter, I was like, oh, okay, so someone else thinks I've, I've got some aptitude for this beyond my school rugby.

And then it was from then it sort of seeded the idea that it could be a possibility, even if it was still like a few years off.

[07:25] Paul: Yeah, and it seems like you had some success early on. What is that like? Like, you're graduating college, university, and I mean, is there sort of a free agent market? I don't understand rugby at all. I'm an American. So yeah, talk to me about how you actually make that transition.

[07:46] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it's, it's quite unofficial. I think with the US system, there's very clear And I know people are starting to do slightly different things with college sports, but it's very much like high school, college. You know, if you're a real good NBA player, you kind of do one and done, don't you? You do like one year where you barely do any academics and you go into the draft, but rugby's much more unofficial. And by going to university, and I actually went up to Newcastle, which was the other end of the UK from where I grew up, I was kind of out of the system I'd been in and I was in a kind of bigger pool of players up there. And I was playing for a lower division club team on the weekend and I was sort of training with the Premiership team up there I could and doing a lot of, uh, like my own sort of— I didn't have anyone planning my career at that point, I suppose.

Um, I knew I'd be there for 3 years for my degree, and at the end of it, or towards the end, I got a— I got an agent. And to do that, I, I asked my old academy manager, like, I need an agent, you know, who do you, who do you like? And he was like, oh, this guy seems all right. So I spoke to him and, um, Yeah, he, uh, I flew down to meet a director of rugby in Plymouth in the southwest of England, and he picked me up from the airport and we went off to meet him in a motorway services and had a meeting, which was pretty weird. Um, uh, he, he asked me some questions. He'd seen some videotapes of me playing, and then he ended up offering me a deal after that.

So, you know, I was like, yeah, all right, you know. So, you know, my university finished and I had, you know, the week or two drinking but I had to sort of fabricate a holiday so I could go home and, uh, and just run, run for a week so I didn't turn up in disgraceful shape. And yeah, then I went down and started work straight away. So I suppose my university just finished, and then I was, you know, 2 weeks later I was in my new job. But I was super excited.

[09:34] Paul: Yeah. And what did that feel like? It must have been pretty exciting to do that as a profession.

[09:40] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it was really, it was really exciting. And I think, you know, I was 22, I think, and it was something I'd had my eye on for a long time. And this was the first time I was seeing some actual money, you know, reasonable money for it in my bank account. Like, not loads, um, you know, a couple of thousand a month kind of thing. But I was just like, yeah, this is it. And, uh, I was, you know, super pumped.

I was learning every day. It was, it was quite stressful, you know, because suddenly you're in— the guys are, you know, your age and younger and all the way up to 35-year-old kind of seasoned pros. And no one knows who you are either, so you've got to turn up and make a good impression, like not only with your performance but by, you know, trying to be a good bloke and not rub anyone up the wrong way too early and keep your head down.

[10:25] Paul: It's always so interesting to talk to athletes because sports is— it's brutal, right? It's— you're either good enough or you're not, um, or you can find some sort of like role player sort of role, but it also has a finite time period in which people, most people can play most sports. Maybe like golf is something you could play longer, but how were you thinking about it? Were you just really present and enjoying the, the youth of it and trying to focus on the year, year-by-year challenge of trying to compete?

[11:03] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. When you're, when you first start and you're young and you feel invincible anyway, and um, you know, I'd never— I'd, I'd gotten hurt, but I hadn't gotten hurt too badly by then. And, and I actually, I got lucky, I never had to kind of have an operation at any point. But, um, I think I was quite, I was quite happy to be out of studying as well. So I took the opportunity to kind of really throw myself into the rugby, and I was like, I'm going to give it a couple of years, really concentrate on it, and not think too much about what's next. And, and the other thing is you you are super tired.

So it's like, you know, you, you go and train and you come home pretty early. Like, some days, you know, you might be done by lunch, or maybe by 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Or sometimes we'd, we'd come home at lunchtime and have another session in the evening, so you'd have a nap because you're that tired. So although you've got a lot of sort of free time, quite a lot of it you are exhausted and you're just sort of waiting for the next opportunity to get flogged by someone. So it's, uh, it's always hard to sort of carve out the time and the space to think about even addressing the topic, let alone doing anything else. I, I think a lot of guys do just sort of prefer not to think about it.

[12:16] Paul: Kind of reminds me of the career world in the same respect. It's like nobody really wants to think about what they're doing and their trade-offs, but then that can obviously catch up with you. I imagine not many English majors in, uh, rugby?

[12:33] Ben Mercer: No, um, I think back in the day, like before it went professional, rugby had a kind of really diverse reputation. So there'd be, you know, guys, guys who worked in the trades, you know, like on, on sites, or there were guys who were lawyers and doctors and whatever else. And there was such a mix of people. But I think once it got professionalized, it was that, that sort of variety has probably been lost a bit. But yeah, I didn't come across anyone else who was, uh He was an English Lit major, but there was, there was a guy on our first team who was— he was a super smart guy. I think he did, uh, I think he'd done philosophy at Cambridge or something.

And, and yeah, so there is still sort of space for the odd, uh, there's a lot of weirdos and they kind of manifest in a lot of different ways, I suppose.

[13:14] Paul: Yeah, you wrote something in your book Endgame: no one starts playing sport for the money, they do it because of how it feels. I love that line so much because I think in more traditional careers, a lot of people think they do things for the money and they get pulled by the money. But in sports, you can't really, I mean, just practically in rugby, you're not making tons of money, but you're just more aware of why you're doing it. Maybe talk a bit about what that, meant to you?

[13:51] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it was definitely— I absolutely loved it, you know. Um, not, not the very first time I played. I think my dad took me down to a rugby club when I was 6, and, and he wasn't, you know, a rugby person. His school didn't play rugby, so it was more just a case of, oh, I wonder if he'll like this. And I didn't actually love it then, but as soon as I started school and playing with my friends, I, I loved it. And then I think at 13, 14, I started to get good, like And, uh, and yeah, I was completely obsessed with it.

I'd watch, I'd watch rugby all the time. I'd look at what the best guys would do, and I'd think, okay, I'll practice, you know, that little, that little skill next time I'm training. Or, um, I was completely sort of happy to devote my attention to it. And, and it feels great. There's so many ways it feels great. So it feels great to be really fit and really strong.

You just sort of, you feel powerful when you're running, and that's a nice feeling. And then when you do something good, there's this like rush of adrenaline. Maybe in rugby, it's my role was all about trying to break the opposition line. And if you managed it, you know, you kind of cut through and suddenly the crowd goes up and all the attention's on you and everyone's sort of running at you and yelling at you to try and, you know, get you to pass to them. And so I always found it incredibly thrilling. And then rugby's obviously a sort of combat sport really as well.

So there's the sort of physical challenge element, which is like, you know, Maybe you're fatigued, or maybe it's a, a guy who's much bigger is running at you and you've got to put him down. And that's actually like pretty exciting to take head-on. And particularly, yeah, when you're younger and you've got sort of fewer thoughts about your self-preservation, you're like, you know, you're happy to go for it.

[15:29] Paul: What are the range of sort of missions people have in sports? We, we were talking before we hit record and you were saying how some people just aren't all that interested in it. It's just what they do. Um, and some people love it, they live for it, they want to be the best, things like that. Talk to me about like the diversity of missions and motives you saw.

[15:53] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I think when you're younger, and like I said, everyone's— everyone starts playing because it feels good, and then they get good and they start getting praised for it in all sorts of different ways. And I think everybody, a bit like a traditional, traditional career, it is very sort of levelled. So it's like, well, I'm in the academy and I want to get a first team deal. And then once I've got that deal, then I obviously want to get into the first team. And then once I've done that, maybe there's another division to move up to, or maybe I want to get selected for the national team, is obviously the sort of top, the very sort of pinnacle. And so everyone is, at the beginning at least, is very focused on sort of getting to the next level, whatever that means to them.

And, um, but then I think once people get kind of their ambitions dashed, or they get a sort of dose of realism, or maybe something else happens in their life, and maybe they're 25 and they just think, oh, this is actually just really good work for me right now, and I'm thinking about, okay, how can I kind of take my next career steps? How can I kind of play well but not get injured? Where, where's my next deal gonna be? So I think there's, there's a sort of arrogance of youth element in a way that it's like, yeah, I'm going to be the best. And then it's sort of how obviously only, only one person can play your position in that national team. So at a certain point, you're gonna have sort of realized it's unlikely, and then you're going to start thinking about, if not an ex— maybe an exit plan.

Maybe it's, uh, rugby is very good for kind of networking So, some guys will sort of, on the way out, they'll go and take a part-time deal in somewhere like Hong Kong, and then they'll get introduced to people there. But there's a real— it's quite hard to ascribe, like, one motivation to people because the characters are so different and their backgrounds are so different that quite often, people are sort of eyeing up completely different things. We had a Czech— when I played in France later on, we had a guy from the Czech Republic who was super smart. You know, he spoke— I, you know, 6 languages or something like that. He was doing his master's degree, he had his rugby coaching badges, and he had a wife and a son. And he really used the year as a sort of deload year on his way out.

He was like, I'm going to retire next year. So he was signed for us because he was this like big unit and he was going to be really physical and a big kind of cornerstone of the team. And the guy spent the whole year on the exercise bike and like rehabbing his neck, which was a bit damaged from his career, and he lost about 12 kilos in the year. And, you know, he sort of ended up in the B team, and he didn't care, because he was like, "Well, I'm just, you know, I'm ticking all my boxes, and that's it." And everyone actually quite respected it, because you see so many guys get a rough deal that you're like, "Oh, actually, someone who's kind of gamed the system a bit and is having a kind of pleasant last season." You're just like, "Yeah, fair play to you, pal." That's awesome.

[18:50] Paul: It seemed like France for you was a sort of, transitional shift to thinking about your rugby career? And you can tell people how long your rugby career is. I think it was like, I don't know, 7, 8 years. Is that right?

[19:06] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it was. I mean, I always think about it kind of from the end of school. So I had a year after I left school, and then I went to university. And while I was, you know, I was at university, but then I was playing rugby for a bit. I'd get a match fee on the weekend, so I was getting paid like a little bit of money by the time I was leaving university, but then I sort of went full-time after that. And then I had sort of 3 seasons in England, and then, yeah, 3 or 4 seasons in England, and then 4 seasons in France.

So France was in my mid-20s when I was sort of— I had this dose of realism and was like, right, it's going to be very difficult for me to get to where I'd like to go with this. You know, how much sense does it make to keep banging my head against a brick wall, and I was kind of assessing some of these part-time options when I got a call to go to France. And I'd actually always had the ambition to go there and play, and I thought I could learn the language and, you know, have a bit of an adventure. And it definitely turned out to be, you know, quite an experience. But, um, that was really exciting as well. So yeah, you're right, I went down like a level in, of rugby, but I was kind of prioritizing some of the other things I'd get out of being there.

[20:16] Paul: Yeah, it was entertaining reading Fringes. I really— I love sports, but I don't know anything about rugby, so I'm learning about all these terms. I'm learning about all your teammates. You had such a wide range of teammates. It was also sort of a team that had been sprung up. They didn't really have major facilities.

It was kind of a— it feels like a scene made for a TV show or something. Maybe talk a little bit about what inspired you to start sort of paying attention, taking notes, and writing about the experience there.

[20:52] Ben Mercer: Well, I think I'd always, like, low-key when I was a kid, my things were definitely sport and books, and I was always reading, and I was reading on buses. And if you're just a big reader, then I think you probably start thinking, oh, you know, I'd like to do that one day, you know, I'd like to write a book. And in my mind, I would always write an adventure story. I'd write some— a novel of of some sort. But, uh, I, I wouldn't say I was like harboring my experiences with that in mind, but I think I was always someone in the team who, who liked telling stories. And if we're sitting around drinking beers, I was always someone who would happily kind of be a bit of a raconteur, I suppose.

And, uh, yeah, and it was just— it's part of the way you pass the time as well, is sort of rehashing the small things that happen every week or in the game. And it's how you all sit around and entertain each other. So just in France in particular, it's such a kind of idiosyncratic place that all these weird things were always happening. So you were kind of constantly in the group being like, oh, remember that time and when that happened? And I've always had a good memory for kind of the sporting details as well, a little bit. So I didn't take notes, but it was something I was sort of— yeah, I don't know, I was always telling people about the sort of odd things that are happening, I suppose.

[22:11] Paul: Any, uh, experiences still stand out as memorable experiences?

[22:18] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it's difficult. I, I think the first year we were there was really fun because, like you said, these, these wealthy guys had taken over a team and gotten them promoted up a level the year before we got there, and we turned up with this quite renowned English coach, and nobody at the club expected us to be good, like staying in that division would have been a good result for us. But we came in with a kind of new style, and we were, as foreigners and kind of people that could speak to the coach, we were people who were quite key in translating that message to the French guys. But that was the year where there were fewer foreigners, and we were really— even though we couldn't speak that much French in the first place, we're just playing such a fun style of rugby.

And we were going away to these teams who thought we were going to be useless and then sometimes beating them on their own patch, which actually in France is like a big deal. Like, the whole thing is that nobody expects to win their away games. And so I think it was that first year because we were a bit of a surprise. And like you said, we were a bit of a kind of ragtag outfit with all these misfits from around the place. And that one team turned up on their bus, you know, and they're fully sponsored and they've got, you know, Beats headphones and sunglasses, and they sort of had a real swagger about them. And they came into our ground and We're all stood there drinking coffee out of plastic cups, and a few of the lads are smoking.

And then we end up putting, you know, like a big score on them and coming up with this sort of statement win, I suppose. And that was very cool. And I think the first year, because it was all so new, it was just a real kind of tour around France to all these odd places and just, yeah, and just flinging the ball around. So it was super fun.

[24:01] Paul: You wrote this line in Fringes about— I think you were talking about people drinking, and it, it could have been a throwaway line, but you wrote, sometimes people also just drink because to deal with being disconnected from society. Uh, now in like rugby in France, um, you're away from your homeland. Is there something there? I mean, I mean, you're in your own sort of bubble. Uh, how, how did that show up in people's lives and being on these weird paths that don't really translate to how the rest of the world is operating?

[24:39] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I think alcohol is a real— it's, it's a real kind of connector in rugby in particular. And in France, they used to call it the third half. So the game is obviously has two halves, but they used to call the, the troisième mi-temps was the third half, which was where you get drunk together. And when we couldn't speak to people in particular and we were in a new place, one of the ways that we got to know the place was to go out to the bars and sort of hang around and try and speak to people in our pigeon French, you know?

But I think there's definitely a sort of— Yeah, there's definitely a slightly lonely element to it as well because your conversations are limited, but you almost are trying to kind of break the ice and— The, the drinking is also when people get injured and they've got nothing else to do, it's a very easy thing because normally you can't go out that much as an athlete, but once you're injured, you're sort of forgotten about a little bit. So sometimes it's the guys that aren't involved will kind of just take the opportunities to do a bit more drinking, but it, it can easily kind of get out of hand. Um, yeah, I think France, while they're kind of super um, they're quite reserved in some ways, but actually they do have quite a big drinking culture, you know.

And there's two universities in the town, so there's loads of students out and about all the time, and the bars stay open pretty late, so there's a lot of opportunities to, to do that.

[26:04] Paul: In France, when did you start thinking about the post-rugby chapter of your life more seriously?

[26:13] Ben Mercer: I suppose later it was always in the back of my mind, and I think the last season I played, I was turning 30 that year, and 30 is pretty old for a rugby player, and I was sort of getting to the point where I was thinking, oh, this isn't going to go any better, and it could start going worse, and to kind of approach career change and starting again at 35, which I— well, I'm 36 now, but I think to do it later on I thought would have been more difficult. So I started thinking about it kind of prior to the last year, and I definitely did sort of sign up for the last year because the project that we had with the team was kind of coming to fruition. Uh, but I think during that last year, I definitely thought like, right, I'm, I'm out of here.

And I didn't give too much thought as to what was next, but I was sort of putting the feelers out in different directions and considering another year of rugby and maybe another place. But I just, I just didn't fancy it in the end. So I was like, well, you know what, I'll kind of get back to the UK and reassess when I'm there. So it was definitely in that last season.

[27:18] Paul: It seems like you underestimated how hard this shift would be. You quote somebody saying to you, it will take longer than you want it to. And, uh, you had this other quote which, from Derek Furlow Jr., um, sports is just a temporary stage for permanent purpose. And I think this is something I think a lot about. I left my path willingly, but it was also way harder looking back than I expected because there was this sort of like mourning of that past identity. Like, I didn't love it as a life anymore, but I actually enjoyed parts of it a lot.

Uh, it's really hard. Um, and I think these off-ramps like it's almost a blessing in sports that it forces you to think about these things and take off-ramps into reinventing yourself. But yeah, what, what was expectation versus reality for you?

[28:16] Ben Mercer: I— yeah, I— the thing was, I had no— I, in a way, I'd given myself a lot of optionality. I hadn't done a degree with any specific outcome, uh, or, you know, or career in mind. And I'd sort of always thought that I'd do— develop some skills, but I actually didn't have anything I could sort of aim at. And I think you're right, there were things that were more kind of— well, I didn't miss the activity of playing sport, and every time I kind of re-engaged a little bit with rugby, I actually didn't enjoy it that much. But it was definitely the environment and the rhythm of the life and the challenge and the teamwork and that sort of thing.

And you're right, you said— I think the main thing was suddenly you're very solitary when you've been constantly in a, in a busy, loud, sociable place that where suddenly you're like, okay, I am now on my own, um, you know, scrolling on my computer looking for something to do. I think that was the main thing, was just going from a busy place to a not busy place. Uh, and I'd have thought in your old role, you know, like where there's always a challenge, there's always something new, there's always meetings, there's always events, and then suddenly to have that kind of pulled out from underneath you is like, right, well, I, I was actually hanging not just my, my work hours, but also a lot of my social hours were sort of facilitated through work, and now it's all gone.

[29:43] Paul: Yeah, it's— it was definitely hard my first year. I remember being just very lonely. I think the way we met was me trying to actively join online communities to find the others, so Yeah, it's something you definitely have to do. Was that something you realized upon leaving? Okay, I need to make new friends.

[30:04] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I was, I was also just like, I knew that there was a lot I didn't know about, and particularly about careers, and I was like, right, I'm going to challenge all my own assumptions. I could always dislike, uh, networking events, or even though as a sociable, quite outgoing person, I was like, oh, I hate the idea of that. And I was like, oh, if I dislike that idea, I should probably challenge myself. And even if I do hate it, then it's a bit of a kind of personal growth exercise. So I was going to like random meetups around Bath and Bristol and listening to talks on things. And yeah, and one of the things I really liked— and, um, and you were obviously an early adopter of this as well— was the kind of online communities, the Slack communities, people on Zoom giving, uh, like webinars and things like that.

And it was all pre-pandemic, so it wasn't something that most people in my experience, were aware of. And I was like, oh, these places are really cool, people are really like friendly and nice. And Kayhee is obviously someone who is really friendly and nice, and that was the community where we met. But, you know, it was— that was somewhere. And, you know, and your stuff was also something else where people was talking about this kind of career, the career as a kind of abstract idea, but with some sort of specific ways that you could think about it. And I was like, well, I can't I don't find this anywhere else, you know.

I don't know where this is apart from here, so these people seem nice, so I'm gonna go with it.

[31:28] Paul: That, that was sort of my reaction too, like 2018. It was like, this, this seems interesting. These people are weird, all sorts of different paths. I'm just going to lean into this and see, see where I end up. So did you ever think about going to law school or following a more traditional path, or I did actually.

[31:47] Ben Mercer: I've got a— yeah, so I was at— and I can't remember what the event was, but I was at an event around London and I bumped into a guy who, who had been probably 3 or 4 years ahead of me at school, and he'd been a really good junior athlete, a hockey player. And that's a sport where there's not much money in it. So he'd kind of gone to university, done law, done very well, got into one of the big firms in London, and then like latterly he's kind of in venture capital now, I think, but as a sort of legal advisor to VC fund, I think. But I bumped into him, and, uh, you know, in some ways he was a bit like me if I'd not gone and played professionally. And I said, oh, you know, I've been thinking about this, and I did some work experience when I was 16, like, what do you reckon? And he just said, I'll stop you there.

And he's like, do you have, do you have a deep interest in the law? And I just said, to be honest, I've got no idea. I would say probably not. And then he said, I've got an intern, she's come from the EU, I think it was, it was the EU or the UN. He's like, she speaks 7 languages, she can do all my work, and we don't pay her anything. And I just thought, okay, I'll leave, I'll leave the law, you know, I'll leave that to the, the, you know, the EU grads.

[33:07] Paul: Yeah. And so what, what was that first year or two like? You talked about I mean, you went through a lot of changes too. You said in the year after I stopped playing rugby, I experienced income anxiety, ended my long-term relationship, and felt anxious about the future. Quite a, quite a fun mix.

[33:28] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I think so. Part of the reason I was sharing those things as well is because these are things that statistically affect athletes, like, you know, overwhelmingly, like over 50% of athletes will feel those feelings. But I think part of the problem, and I suspect, you know, similar with other kind of elites or prestigious careers in, you know, um, in quotation marks, is that everyone there has beaten the odds to do what they're doing. So a bit like how everybody thinks they're a better than average driver, you know, you're— you see a statistic and you're like, yeah, but you know, that's for normal people, like not for me. And, uh, and all those things happened.

I mean, obviously I wasn't earning Uh, you know, I'd lost my— I finished my contract and, um, and then I was sort of doing piecemeal work online and in person, but it wasn't, you know, it's not a lot of money that I was bringing in. So I was trying loads of different things and I was happy to, to do that and to experiment with different roles. So I, I worked for a, a friend's dad's bike business, which he, you know, was minimum wage, and he was like, but I'll, you know, I'll show you how the business works and you'll learn a little bit about, you know, running a business like this. I did some freelance writing stuff online that I found on places like Upwork. I did a project management gig for a friend who basically had 3 or 4 of these projects going on, and for his kind of least important one, he was like, oh, I can employ you to do this.

You'll actually be doing me a favor because it's not really worth me doing, but it'll be quite good. We'll get to work together and you'll learn a few things and get a bit of cash. I was like, yeah, sure. So that was quite a fun gig, but, um, I was in a very, like, experimental phase. And after— yeah, the— probably about a year after I left rugby, me and my long-term girlfriend broke up. And, you know, she was still living in Europe, so it was quite— it was suddenly had become a lot more difficult to hang out.

Uh, so there was, there was that as well. And I kind of felt after a year, I was like, well, I've spent a year now, like, what have I kind of got to show for it? And I think I, on the surface nothing, you know, like it's probably in a worse place. But actually, kind of for myself, I challenged myself in a lot of different ways and learned that I could, you know, spend time on my own. I'd like learned a lot more about careers. I started putting myself out there with making little bits of things, you know, content online and dabbling with writing and doing some courses.

So it was like, in another way, I was quite far ahead, but it was a, it was a sort of It was difficult to feel like that at the time, for sure.

[35:59] Paul: Yeah. What ways did retirement change you that you didn't quite expect?

[36:04] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I mean, it makes you kind of reassess your attitude towards lots of things. I think lots of guys, you know, put weight on, and I was like determined I wasn't going to do that. So I was like, right, I need to figure out strategies for these things because obviously other people have been telling me what to do with my, you know, physical health the whole time. So it was small, it was kind of ways like that. But I think I, I became a lot less afraid of asking people for help. I think to kind of email people and ask them for advice, or even just ask people I actually knew, you know, for some help.

I, I engaged like with a career coach, um, in the year after I retired, and that was pretty interesting. So I wanted someone who was objective, someone who didn't have any opinion on me whatsoever, any preconceived ideas. And I became a lot better at kind of analyzing myself, I think, in that year. And yeah, and I just became a lot more used to my own company. I was like, oh, I actually— I like my own company, you know. And I started doing, you know, things like going for walks.

And later on, I started doing things like long-distance running, which I always hated. And then the other, the other thing was I used retirement as an opportunity to start learning to surf properly, which was something else I'd always thought I liked the idea of but never had the time or the kind of, you know, lived anywhere near a wave. And, um, and even though it was very intermittent, I actually quite enjoyed being bad because I was always very competitive when I was a kid, and I, I was like, I hated being bad at things. But surfing, I saw it as an opportunity. I was like, oh, you're so bad at this, you know, it's going to be great because you're going to improve like really quickly. So that was interesting because I was always like, you know, someone who was, yeah, very like, I want to be the best at this.

But I was actually quite happy to be like, no, no, I'm, I'm where I am and I'm just gonna kind of approach it in that manner. And I, I actually have found it really enjoyable to kind of keep on that learning journey with it as well.

[38:07] Paul: When did the idea to write a book emerge?

[38:10] Ben Mercer: I think so, I, I wrote an article Towards the end of that first year of retirement, towards at the end of the rugby season, and it was real clickbaity.

[38:21] Paul: It's the LinkedIn article.

[38:23] Ben Mercer: Yes, yes. You know, something like I read this one, it was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. Um, but it felt like a big deal because that was like the first, here's a piece of writing with my name on it, on my, on a social profile. Here it is. And there was a really good, you know, it's really nice reception to it.

And then off the back of that, I got a, um, a bit of blogging work for a rugby website. And the pay was terrible, but it was, it was good because it got me in the, in the practice of like pitching stories and having ideas. And, and they, they never said no to anything, but I, I would, you know, write the story. But then I— it meant that I started generating all these other ideas, and I was just writing them in, in Google Docs as as practice, really. And it was more through that process that as I was doing it, I was like, oh, I've got a lot of stories here. And, and then the, the kind of concept for the book started to form.

So I would say it was, it was once I actually started publishing, you know, these posts, that was what really kind of started turning the wheels, I suppose, and, and generating the ideas. And the concept kind of came out of it. It was like, okay, I've got these stories. And then I was starting to think what would someone— what is a different perspective? And it was kind of life away from the elite level. But actually, I was like, if I set it across the time I was in France, then it gives it a kind of obvious chronological block.

It's not like, here I am, age 6, at my— you know, you know, it's not my whole life story, it's just this 4 years. And then I can kind of slot in all these different opinions and stories into that time frame. So Yeah, it was definitely the, the process of publishing.

[40:08] Paul: Yeah. At the end of that LinkedIn piece, I was reading it a couple weeks ago, it said, you said, your team will move on without you, you need to move on without them. And reading this, I was just thinking to myself, I wonder if this was just him like hyping himself up to like really lean forward and bet on himself.

[40:28] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it probably was. Yeah, I think it, I think it probably was. And sometimes, you know, I'm sure you've, you've felt it too. It's like you've not done anything like that with your name on and you just think, oh, but you know, you've got to, you've got to finish the piece. And I just thought it was a nice little soundbite, I suppose, as well. So I was like, there you go.

[40:48] Paul: It's funny, I, I started writing on LinkedIn as well in 2015, and that moment of writing that first article is so vivid. It's so visceral in my body, so much fear. It was like the silliest article. I remember I was just summarizing some other articles. I'm just like, people are going to make fun of me. People are going to think I'm stupid.

And I liked how I felt after I put it. And then people started reaching out to me and it was like, oh, I like these people that are reading my stuff. I should keep writing. And it's funny how just choosing to share can really change the trajectory of what you end up doing. Um, so, and it seems like you've been on a similar journey. I mean, you're sharing a lot now, um, especially on like TikTok and Instagram.

Um, talk to me about how that connection to like— yeah, go ahead.

[41:47] Ben Mercer: Oh, sorry, I was just going to say, I think LinkedIn, particularly when you're first getting going, is like quite a good place to do it. And I think The flip side of what you said is how much someone will get from your little piece of encouragement if they're sharing something. I think just even just a like, or if you just comment, you know, anything, if you're that creator and it particularly if it's early days, you know, every little comment like that means the world to you, doesn't it? And you're like, oh wow, and then, you know, it spurs you on and you don't know where it's going to go. But I think it's both ways. It's like it's both, uh, the writer and the reader, or, you know, whatever your medium is.

But I think there's a Zadie Smith essay I like a lot, which is, which is about writing and, uh, Fail Better. And I think it is, and it's about we need better writers, but we also need better readers. And yes, when people read, it's like, if you, if you can encourage, then, you know, it'll just precipitate even better stuff.

[42:45] Paul: I love that. How— what were your expectations around the book. I mean, I know you decided to self-publish, which is— I'm a big fan of people that self-publish on this podcast. Um, talk to me about that decision and kind of how you were thinking about the book when you released it.

[43:06] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I mean, while I was writing, I suppose, and I really liked the idea of self-publishing partly because of the speed, and one of the things I wanted from the book was almost just a proof of some agency, that I was someone who could do a project like that and finish it. And, you know, quality aside— and obviously I wanted it to be good— so part of it was almost as a sort of, I was going to use it to get more work of some description, probably involving writing. But when I sort of really committed to it, I thought it'd be silly not to. Um, I'd gone quite far down the self-publishing rabbit hole, and I was kind of involved with your stuff, and it was about, you know, sharing your work online. And I got into kind of Seth Godin, and he was talking about self-publishing. And there's Peter Levels was another one who had his like year, his blog where he was doing experiments every month.

And then one of those experiments has ended up being Nomad List and, you know, and whatever. But it was, it was all very like, put it up there, get your work out there. And I thought Nevertheless, be silly not to speak to a traditional publisher just in case. And I spoke to a couple of different agents, and one guy who's a big, a good sportsbook agent said to me, he was like, I think this is like pretty good. You can, you can definitely make it better, but you're in a small market which only really comes out for big names. So he was like, look, I'd encourage you to, to make, to improve it, and then I think self-publishing would be a good route for you.

So that was nice because it gave me an answer quite quickly. I was probably a third of the way into it, into like composing it, but I thought, right, okay, I know what I'm doing now. And it was just sitting down and getting it finished as quickly as I could. And I actually just loved that bit of it as well. I was super energized by the actual writing and then jigsawing it together and You know, that both the kind of the composition, but also, yeah, the, the problem solving of slotting bits into a, to a narrative that makes a bit of sense.

[45:15] Paul: I love that. Yeah, it's so similar on my end. Like, I hear about people struggling to write books, and it's hard in a certain sense, but it was a project I just loved. Like, trying to like hold all these pieces in your head and then trying to like stick the landing. I actually find that really fun. And, um, yeah, I, I think I definitely would have hated having to work with a publisher just because of the longer timeline and, yeah, having to inject their opinions in that whole game.

[45:44] Ben Mercer: I think sport, sport is obviously something that's so immediate as well. And that, you know, I wasn't long out of that environment and it was like you do things, you get feedback immediately, and then you can start making them better. Whereas, like you say, something with such a long lag time you're just like, oh, you know, do I really have to wait this long? Is that really how this works? And I just thought, you know, even though it wasn't on the table for me, I was really pumped to get this done. And I think as well, there was an element with sport, you always have to be picked, you always have to be chosen, you know, week to week.

Like, you both have to be picked to kind of get a contract in the first place, and then you're constantly trying to you know, get in the team and cement yourself. But here I was like, well, I don't need anybody, you know, like actually I get to pick myself and I'm just going to do it myself. And I really liked the idea of being in charge of something. And, you know, whether it was good or bad, at least I'd been in charge of it, you know.

[46:42] Paul: And the books are doing— I mean, that book specifically did pretty well. Did that surprise you?

[46:48] Ben Mercer: Yeah, it did. Yeah. Um, I, I made it available on Amazon, and I kind of made the ebook available for free on that for the first— well, for a couple of days. And I just needed some downloads and to get some reviews. And then I didn't have any kind of real social following, so I was just pestering people on Twitter and, uh, and, you know, cold emailing people. And then I think that there was a point where, after it'd been out for a few months and it sold a few hundred copies a month for the first 3 months, I think it was.

And, uh, and then the pandemic happened. So all the people who'd been quite positive but hadn't had the time were suddenly like, oh, send it to me now. And it really felt like there was an inflection point when I, when I got to about 25 reviews on Amazon. I think the Amazon kind of algorithm started turning in my favor. And I, I went on there to, um, to find you know, to get the link to the book to share with the journalist. I saw it was number one in the rugby category, and I was— we're in lockdown, and I was just sat there, just sort of burst into tears, you know.

I was like, oh my God. Oh wow, it was really amazing moment. And I was just sat there, you know, on my own with my laptop.

[48:00] Paul: Well, what was that feeling? Was it just, oh, I could make it as a writer, or I feel seen?

[48:07] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I think it was this— I think it was a bit of relief as well. And, uh, and yeah, that I was just so pleased that something I'd put all that effort into. It felt like it was for something. And even though I was proud of what I, what I put together, and I'd had, you know, some of my friends look at it and give me some good feedback, and that was just, oh my God, I've, I've actually done something here with this. And that was— and like I said, because I'd done it myself, it really felt like a huge deal to me.

[48:38] Paul: Yeah, you also created your own imprint. Uh, was that before that book or after?

[48:43] Ben Mercer: No, no, that was, that was further down the line. So for the second book, because I was collaborating with some other guys and everyone was kind of taking some ownership in, in the project. So I needed a, a body to be able to pay everybody the royalty out of it. And when I looked into it, and Joanna Penn, if anyone's interested in this stuff, so she's, she's at creativepen.com, I think. But, um, she's a really good resource for people who are trying to self-publish. And she had something where she'd done a similar thing, you know, she'd collaborated with another writer and had set up this imprint in order to be able to, you know, distribute it.

So I was like, okay. And then I started looking into it and looking into ISBNs. And because I'd self-published through Amazon, they give you an Amazon kind of product number for your book. But then I think there was a suggestion that maybe then they do actually have some sort of residual publishing rights of some description, like, to your work, which, which makes some sense when you think about it. And I just thought, oh, I'd actually love also to get that book back under kind of my complete control. And so the imprint also gave me the opportunity to kind of do a second edition where I corrected a load of the sort of outstanding errors.

I got it professionally proofread, like, properly. And, um, yeah, and, uh, then I kind of got it back and republished it under my imprint, I suppose.

[50:07] Paul: Yeah, what I'm actually, like, selfishly curious about that— I was thinking of spinning up my own imprint. And the reality of these things is you basically just need to come up with a name and then buy the ISBNs from whatever service provider your country has. But like, is the listing on— because I think your book Fringes still says it's serviced by Amazon. Is that just something that stays like that over time, or can you just change the thing on your existing listing?

[50:38] Ben Mercer: I think what happened to me was then they're almost— there's almost two versions on there. So there's a certain version of Fringes which is the old one and has used and new, I think, uh, rather than the kind of print-on-demand version. And then there's a sort of fresh one where I managed to get them to link my reviews over to it, and then that has the sort of the, the updated second edition which is under the imprint. But you're right, it's actually— setting up an imprint sounds like something that's quite complicated, but if you've got a sort of a company, then you can, yeah, like you said, make a name for the imprint, make a logo, um, buy the domain, and have, I think, an email address attached to it. And then that will let you buy ISBNs.

So, and the name of the imprint doesn't need to be the same as the name of the company, so you could have a kind of your own company and call your imprint whatever you want, and then that would be, that would be absolutely fine.

[51:37] Paul: And so you, you've written a few books now. You ghostwrote one, um, helped a group around the— I think it was the Athens Olympics, the British, um, 4x100 team. And you wrote another book recently, Endgame. How do you think about writing and books sort of as a business now? Something you could make money from?

[52:03] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I think, I think it's a bit of a, bit of a volume game in a way. I think like to really make your living from it completely, you've got to have that, right, what's the next one, and, and kind of keep being generative and improving every time. Um, I'm a little bit like you. I, I find the— when you talk about your sort of strategic thinking around these things and that you don't like to be too strategic about it. And I feel like that too. It's— I'm not an organized person necessarily.

Like, I'm quite disciplined when I decide to do something, but I'm not someone who's super organized with my calendar even. So it's like the idea of setting a sort of James Clear-esque marketing strategy months in advance, I find very challenging, which is probably more reason to— I should try. But, but yeah, I think, yeah, it's like trying to kind of have high-ticket things to do on the one hand and then keep doing the things that really interest you on the other with the books and then hope that they resonate with people.

[53:10] Paul: Yeah. And for reference, James Clear's technique for his book Atomic Habits, and clearly he's had success, but I'm not sure it's just because of the launch. He went on 100 podcasts in the first couple of weeks of the launch. To do that, however, he said he had to reach out to 300. And when, when I think about that, I'm just like, I want to take a nap.

[53:32] Ben Mercer: Yeah, yeah, no, me too. I, and I think that's what's been nice to see with The Pathless Path as well. It's like how, um, you know, and while you, you know, you're very generative yourself and you're on, you've been going on some podcasts particularly more recently, but it really did feel like something that was organic and really kind of gathered moss And I think that's really, that's really cool. And I think that's also just how a hit book works. Like, a hit book does work because people tell people. It doesn't work necessarily because it gets marketed everywhere.

And I think— I'm not trying to do down James Clear either. Like, I loved his, um, you know, I was a big reader of his blog and stuff prior to Atomic Habits, so he was someone I found really inspiring. Um, but it's just he seems like someone to me who's super kind of on it with these things, and I feel like I'm not.

[54:22] Paul: And I think people have a challenge of, like, they can't actually run the experiment of what if James had published the book without all the podcast interviews. The fact is the book only succeeded because it was a good book, right? And then there are other things like timing and, um, sort of just like luck of the world that you can't quite control or understand. But it's impossible to run that counterfactual. And I think like I sort of look at my life as art sometimes, and that's probably the most egoic thing you could ever say. But it's like my question is always like, well, what if I didn't do any of those things?

What will happen? And so it's like sometimes it's like a reckless stance, but I sort of just don't think a lot of these things matter, like blurbs on books, like crushing a launch, getting printed books in bookstores. Like, I just want to— I only have a certain amount of energy, and it was like, I just want to put the energy into writing and that's it. And I think that can work. And I, I think that's the thing people miss when they see people like James Clear. It's like to have a successful book, you need to do this.

Um, or they could just take our approach. You, you orchestrated a global pandemic so people would have time to read your book. Um, and me, um, the pandemic helped people question their relationship with work. So I guess there are two approaches, right? Um, crush the launch or time your book around a pandemic when people are feeling reflective.

[56:10] Ben Mercer: No, that seems sensible. Yeah, I think if, if you can, if you sort of predict, predict these once-in-a-lifetime events, then yeah, your book's set up for success. But if, you know, if you can't, you better be good at launching.

[56:21] Paul: Yeah, but I call it these two modes. It's almost like I launch energy versus long game energy. And this is probably a good transition to talk about your TikTok stuff. For me, I I knew early on I wanted to be on this path and stay on it for a really long time. Like somebody offering me a job, $500 grand, like I'm easy. No, I enjoy my life too much.

So knowing that I'm going to be curious about these things and sharing over the long term, it doesn't actually matter for me to optimize for success in any one year. All I need to do is not run out of money. And it seems like you sort of figured that out early on too, is 'Oh, I like being on this path.' Maybe it was similar to kind of the flexibility you had while working in rugby, um, and you kept experimenting. And one of those experiments was TikTok. So you've become a bit of a booktoker influencer. Uh, talk, talk to me about this.

Like, how did you stumble into that?

[57:25] Ben Mercer: Yeah, no, um, to your point, I think the staying, staying in the game thing is so important. It's one of the kind of Taleb things, isn't it, with trading? It's like the only the only way to lose is to lose everything at once. And as long as you're still, still in it— and that's how I've really felt about developing this stuff. And it wasn't as a result of the book, but it was a similar thing where I put a load of content about retiring from sport on my website and did some interviews with some of my old teammates. And it was just like a bit of fun.

I'd learned, you know, a couple of skills that I might be able to sort of sell to other people, and there'd be a bit of a sort of body of work that I start building on my website. And then off the back of that, I got a job at a startup which helps athletes transition from sport into careers, and they made a head of content role for me, which was something they, they hadn't had. They'd had just people doing their social media. And, um, and I did that for 2 years, and that was a part-time role. So I did that, you know, while I was doing that, the book took off, and I was doing kind of freelance stuff as well. But after 2 years, I was a bit like, oh, you know, I think I've kind of done what I'm going to do here.

And I'd like to kind of get on and, and do something else. And because the books had been so energizing, and I'd really loved the experience of doing them, but actually not having any social presence had made the whole thing a lot harder. And when I was playing rugby, I'd always been quite reticent to sort of go on social media. And now I think that was a bit of a mistake, you know, a bit of a mistake, because I think one of the things with social media is you you, by its nature, you look at what everyone else is doing and you think you have to do it like that as well. But actually, I could have done it as an athlete and shared all the books I was reading, and that would have been weird and unusual and probably quite cool. But I just saw what everyone else was doing and didn't like that, so decided not to do it, which was really shooting myself in the foot.

But anyway, I, um, I thought, right, I, I need some social presence. TikTok's got this whole book thing going on it, uh, you know, the BookTok stuff. And I'd gotten used to hosting these like, uh, private webinar, like, online events for athletes for the startup during the pandemic. So I'd kind of gotten used to being on, on camera in that, in that way. And I thought, right, okay, like if I do TikTok this way, I'll just read a passage of a book I like. I can share the books that I actually like to read, which aren't anything to do with sport.

They're sort of, you know, literary fiction and non-fiction of various types. I'll be on camera, I'll be narrating, so maybe that's some other sort of type of work that I could get into. And I'll just see how it goes. I'll do it for 2 weeks, so I'll do a different book each day, and I'll just hold the book up and you know, bring it down and read a passage and that'll be it. And the first post did really well. It was Sally Rooney's Normal People, which was a series that had been going really well in lockdown, and it was a book that I, that I really liked anyway.

And then after that, it just started, yeah, get— getting its own momentum. And then once it got to about 15,000 followers, I started getting— people I knew started sending me screenshots that people had shown them and they were like, what are you doing? And I had to almost come out to my friends and family as a TikToker.

[01:00:48] Paul: You could write a book about that, how to come out as a TikToker.

[01:00:57] Ben Mercer: Yeah, that's a good idea. Thank you. Um, no, I went around to, you know, went around to my friends who'd recently gotten married, and, you know, they'd been off doing married people things. And I went around and they said, oh, what's new? And I was like, oh, I'm a TikTok star. And then they were like, oh, have you done— have you downloaded the app?

And I was like, yeah. And then I had, you know, about 15,000 followers, and they were just like, oh my God, you know, oh my God, like, what are you doing? And, um, and yeah, I think as well, because I'd been able to do it kind of away from any of my friends seeing, then I'd felt a lot more kind of at liberty to, to try it. Whereas if I'd been doing on Instagram where everyone could see, I think like, you know, there'd have been a lot more kind of mockery. But because it, it kind of hit a sort of small bit of success already, they were like, okay, that's weird, but clearly people like it, so that's fine, you know.

[01:01:52] Paul: And it seems like you're having fun with it. I mean, you, you write about this in Endgame, like you wish you knew about this positive version of sharing ideas online. Um, and from the outside it looks like, oh, Ben is not turning this into a job. He's just having fun with it and going with the flow. Even I think now I saw you had 137,000 followers, which there's probably some pressure to like cash in on that. But like your latest posts are just like random thoughts about bookshops or books.

Are you still having fun with it?

[01:02:29] Ben Mercer: Yeah, I definitely had a bit of a lull. So it's like I do, I post as often as I can, you know, I try and do every day. And then I do live reads as well. So particularly earlier in the week when, you know, you're not, you're not so much out and about in the evening. So I'd sit down and read live from various, various things. But, uh, yeah, I do actually really enjoy it.

And I think to your point, I'm just, I'm not trying to put too much pressure on it. I'm just trying to kind of stay in the game, see where it goes. And actually the last year was kind of the best year I'd had since sport in terms of earning money, but also in terms of like the variety and the kind of the cool work I got to do. I got— people would kind of offer me weird projects or, you know, bits of kind of standard influencer sponsored post sort of things. And I've also tried to kind of keep the any brand associations like reasonably kind of yeah, I don't know, high ticket in a way. So people like working with TikTok directly or with Amazon or BBC or people like that.

So I'm like, I don't want to jump on anything yet. I'd rather kind of forego any immediate like benefit and see where it could go rather than, you know, try and milk anything too quickly.

[01:03:49] Paul: Yeah, I think that's a big challenge for people because as soon as you start building an audience, there's opportunity to make money in 100 different ways, but 90 of those are things that you're going to either waste time on, distract yourself, or sort of like sell out and sell out your audience as well. So I think this is a lot harder than people think. But what, like, what are some of the revenue streams? Like, how do you think about it now? Yeah, like maybe if you're open, like, what does it actually cost to like work with you?

[01:04:22] Ben Mercer: Um, yeah, I, I think it sometimes depends on the client as well, but the fees break down in a few ways. There's normally, there's normally like a standard fee and then a usage period, and maybe they'll pay for exclusivities— you can't work with a rival for a certain amount of time— and, uh, and then if they want to put ad spend onto a sponsored post, then, then you can negotiate percentages depending on, you know, how much they want to spend boosting your post. Um, so it's quite hard because I don't, I don't have anyone managing that for me, and that's a lot of stuff I've had to learn on the fly as well. And, um, I'd love, you know, if anyone did want to manage me, that'd be great. But, um, yeah, there's, there's that. That's the kind of normal stuff.

And then I've been lucky enough that TikTok reached out directly, and I've been working with them on kind of retainers. So I've been I worked on their official book club last year, which was really good fun. So it's me and 4 other creators on there, and we'd read, you know, we just do a book club but on TikTok, and then we would broadcast the meetup live at the end of the month. That was super fun. And then I'm doing another project with TikTok at the moment, which is judging their book awards, which is quite funny that I'm doing that at all.

[01:05:38] Paul: But then I gotta get my book in that.

[01:05:42] Ben Mercer: Yeah, you should. Then, um, there's another really cool piece of work that came to me. There's a guy who's following me, he runs the German Fashion Council, and they've got a program for young fashion designers who have sustainable kind of brands that they're working on, or sustainable credentials. And they have a tie-up with the Prince's Foundation over here in the UK, and they have a learning year. And he was like, do you want to do like a book thing for us? So I do these like book workshops where I'm just like, here's some books that kind of deal with creativity, sustainability, the idea of craft like overall.

And, you know, you guys read them, let's, you know, share what you think about them and we'll chat. And you're just like, how good, what, what a fun thing to get to do for money.

[01:06:25] Paul: That's amazing. I love this so much because, yeah, I mean, it's— the coolest thing is seeing somebody that when you were little you said you just love reading and playing rugby, and now you're just reading and having fun with it and able to make a earning from it, basically because you kept betting on yourself. The thing is, most people quit. Um, and, uh, yeah, I imagine sport probably helped with that too, of like actually just sticking it out and trying to play the long game of getting better and better and keep doing experiments. Yeah.

[01:06:58] Ben Mercer: And I think the other thing that sport's quite good at, even though it's by its nature competitive, is you realize that there are other people who are better than you. Like, you know, you're in the gym with your own team and, you know, that guy's stronger at this and that guy's fitter. 'at that,' and 'that guy's faster,' but it's like, okay, that means actually they're nothing to do with me. I'm never gonna manage that, but what can I manage myself? And then you see the other person almost as someone to learn from and, and enjoy rather than someone to try and beat. And, you know, that's not to say you're never feeling competitive, but I think you, you do get a sense of like what your qualities are like very clearly.

And like you said, the kind of persistence to to stick at things. And I think the other thing— I got a good piece of advice recently that was like, keep doing what's working is the other thing. Is like, if people like something, you know, it— you might just get bored, but actually if you don't get bored, you know, there might be something on the other side. So don't underestimate, you know, like that, I think. And the, the other side of it is like you said about betting on yourself, but sometimes people have asked about you know, maybe they want to take their career in a new direction. And I've probably kind of parroted or like bastardized some of the things you've said.

And, you know, I had someone who works in law be like, oh, you know, I'd like to get into sustainability, like, what do you think I should do? And I was like, I think you should write 2 or 3 blog posts on a sort of sustainable legal issue and put them on LinkedIn and then start sharing them with people who work where you'd like to go and ask them for their opinion on them. And they were just— they just didn't believe me, you know. They were like, oh, that— I don't think— I don't think that would work. And I'm just like, I mean, it might not, but equally it might, you know. It's like, I think doing nothing won't work, like this might.

Um, so I think there's a lot of people who just convince themselves that it won't work even before they start as well.

[01:08:57] Paul: Yeah, there's probably a joke in there about like men will go pay for a $150,000 grad degree and spend 2 years of their lives to avoid just posting 2 blog posts sharing what they're actually interested in. But it works. Like, I don't think you're bastardizing it like that. It is that simple. There's still a massive arbitrage opportunity because most people are not doing it. And yeah, it's a great playbook and it's, it's cool to see someone like you that like didn't have the business background actually sort of prove it works.

And that's why I think your story is so cool.

[01:09:32] Ben Mercer: Yeah, thank you. No, it's, um, it's, it's definitely super fun. And I think the other thing is, like, with the latest book, with it, it's more of like a handbook. So how I see it at the moment is I, I get to do the TikTok stuff, like, it's both fun and kind of brings in, brings in some money in a couple of different ways. And, you know, there's more things I think about doing with it, you know, maybe more audio type stuff, or maybe doing some, some podcasting or something like that. But then on the other side, it will give— hopefully it will give me the, the time and the space to do more book projects.

And then those can be, you know, like, I'd be open to working with a publisher maybe, but like, equally it would need to be the right thing. And for something like Endgame, I'm like, well, there's clearly no publisher is going to care about this, so I'm just going to do it myself. And, um, yeah, and to have that kind of space and ability to devote the rest of my time to doing that, and because I love the process and because it's by its nature it's a bit more kind of solo and a bit more inward looking, I get to kind of be super outgoing on the one hand and super, yeah, like kind of concentrated on the other, which is really nice.

[01:10:40] Paul: That's awesome. Well, I appreciate you sharing your journey today. Is there anywhere else you want people to find you?