Melvin Varghese: The Creator Therapist | The Pathless Path Podcast

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I am talking with Melvin Varghese. I am super excited to talk to him today because I think he is someone that is very aligned with me. We're both girl dads and trying to design lives around our family and trying to figure out what that really means, doing the weird work that we're doing, which doesn't really come with a plan even if we wanted one. He is a licensed psychologist who moved from practicing, uh, on his own and I think part of other institutions to working on his own as an entrepreneur, uh, for other online therapists and health professionals.

Creating all sorts of stuff. He has an amazing podcast where he talks about these ideas, shares his journey, and he's been doing that for, I think, 8 years now, which is just impressive. I love people who stick to that long game, and we're going to talk about his whole evolution, what he's up to now, and riff a little on what it How do you do this path with kids and a family and the trade-offs? Welcome to the podcast, Melvin.

[02:19] Melvin Varghese: Paul, I'm really grateful for you, brother, and excited for today's conversation.

[02:24] Paul: First question we always ask: what are the stories and scripts you grew up with that were sort of guiding lights about what you should be doing as an adult in the world?

[02:37] Melvin Varghese: So, you know, I have South Indian parents, right? And stereotype of typical Indian parents are, you know, there's kind of 4 options, right? Career-wise, which is doctor, lawyer, engineer, although I heard the 4th option recently, which was failure.

[02:56] Paul: And so that's a complete set.

[03:01] Melvin Varghese: That is the complete set. So yeah, what, so, you know, my— I remember early on, like I was originally supposed to go to medical school, be a pediatrician. And then, you know, I did well up in high school. I struggled a bit with like AP Chem, AP Cal. And then once I got into undergrad and we took those classes, I was like, oh my gosh, this is not how my brain thinks. And I let go of that and ended up psychology major and then went and, you know, the PhD route, which was still a ton of work.

But so I don't know, like, I guess I'm a doctor but not an MD, right? Which is like really— I mean, which I'm obviously grateful for, but there's actually a subtlety sometimes I feel like in, you know, in Indian communities sometimes, but not all the time.

[04:00] Paul: You've talked a bit about how you not only felt you had to be good, but you had to be excellent at everything you did growing up. Talk to me about that. And was that internalized just on your own awareness, or was that imposed too?

[04:17] Melvin Varghese: So, I mean, the little bit of backstory on this was, you know, my parents immigrated to the US in 1989, and prior to that, they had multiple opportunities to come to the US, but my dad was a lawyer in India. My mom was working as a nurse and they had life pretty much figured out, right? They had our family there and all of those different things. And so they kept delaying the immigration process and they kept saying like, we want to just table coming over to the US because we're just not sure. We're not sure. And then I think in '89, the US government was finally like, can't just keep tabling.

Like, you got to make a decision or lose this opportunity. And so I mean, my dad had, you know, in his like mid-30s, right, decided, you know, uproot and, you know, come to the US. And so I share that because, you know, English is not my first language, right? So I remember finishing first grade there, starting second grade here, and I started in English as a second language classes. One of my most vivid memories was, you know, walk— coming out of the plane and we were staying with my aunt and my cousin who I'd never met before. He asked me something around like, I'm guessing it was like something around, do I want pizza?

And I remember the word pizza, but obviously I had no idea what pizza was. I had never actually seen cheese in my life until then. And so all of that to say, I internalized that, you know, I'm the oldest sibling, so I had to make it work, right? Like my parents sacrificed a lot, right? And they, you know, would always tell us like, we came because we wanted to give you more opportunities. You know, we wanted you guys to have education.

And it's a wonderful thing, yet it puts a tremendous amount of pressure to not mess up, you know?

[06:15] Paul: Yeah, it's such a, it's such a common thing you hear with people that immigrate to the US.

[06:22] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[06:22] Paul: And, um, you, you often hear the, like how much pressure that puts on kids, right? Do you think there was a positive side of that too?

[06:32] Melvin Varghese: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's like, I don't know. I mean, there's like, you know, there's stress, there's distress, and then there's eustress, right? Like, so I think there were situations where it was more eustress, right? Like it motivated me to want to accomplish things. And generally, like I would say it was very positive, right?

In terms of I was very disciplined, you know, and I wanted to accomplish things. But I think that the biggest trade-off I think has been that my identity got wrapped up in what I was doing and in my accomplishments. Right. But the positive is obviously strong, like grateful for the strong work ethic. Right. And I don't think my parents did this on purpose.

But, you know, many, especially elementary, middle, and most of high school, pretty much we went back to India every summer. And I think I was in 6th grade when I first flew unaccompanied from Dallas to to India and growing up 2 or 2 and a half months in India every year, you just gave you a different context, right? Like you live in the US, look where you might be, where people are here, right? And I don't know, I was just— I don't— again, I don't think my parents did it on purpose, but I think it was— it gives you a different framework, right?

[08:00] Paul: Yeah. And did you see we, we struggled to have good food, especially in the '90s?

[08:05] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. Right, right, right. Oh my gosh. Yes. Yeah. Now looking back at all those commercials that we saw, it looked amazing.

Like, right.

[08:17] Paul: Yeah. What, what was it like in Texas? I mean, I know you were in Texas.

[08:24] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[08:25] Paul: I think the stereotype of Texas is like a very white, conservative place. But living here, I've been surprised at how diverse it is. And it's sort of a place that's been growing for a very long time. There's all sorts of different immigrant groups across the state, especially Hispanic immigrants. How, how was Texas growing up?

[08:51] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, so I had a very similar experience to you as well. I remember even early on when I took those ESL classes, just seeing like lots of different ethnicities. The school, I remember, especially the high school that I went to was very racially and socioeconomically diverse. And it did, I remember like having friends and family from out of Texas being like, do you guys, you know, ride a horse to school? Whatever, right? I'm like, no.

And you know, like it, there were all those stereotypes, but I found the same thing. I found a surprising amount of diversity and actually a surprising amount of tolerance now looking back. And again, I couldn't connect those dots or even understand that language at that age, but it's what I found, so.

[09:42] Paul: [Speaker:BEN] So you went into college, you thought, okay, I might be a doctor, which is also just crazy that people decide that at 18. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I quote unquote grow up.

[09:56] Melvin Varghese: But yeah, it's a crazy— it is. It's a, it's a crazy pressure, you know, like how does one know that, you know, at that age?

[10:05] Paul: Yeah. Do you know what you want to be when you grow up now?

[10:09] Melvin Varghese: Oh, what I'm doing now? 100%.

[10:11] Paul: That's awesome. And is it mostly because— and I've heard you talk about this and I love it. Is it mostly because— do you measure success around, okay, how am I, am I spending my days how I want to be spending them?

[10:25] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, I think in the early, you know, I'm 8 years into this like creator entrepreneur journey and I think in the initial days I measured it by revenue. But I think these days, especially after our daughter was born, I started looking at a more holistic view and I started designing it more around the life that I wanted to live. And I think this has been one of the hardest things because, you know, in the online space, right? Like there's such an emphasis on revenue and this sort of like, I don't know, this strict like lifestyle that really didn't honestly resonate with me because I'm not that like flashy. Like I kind of want a simple, boring—

[11:11] Paul: You don't need a Lambo?

[11:13] Melvin Varghese: No, not yet. Not ever. Not forever. Apparently this is a thing I heard. Side note, not with Lambos, but with planes. There's actually entire companies that create where you can like rent a plane for an hour to do.

It's like crazy. But no, that like never resonated for me. And I think once I, you know, I know we'll talk more about this, but I think having— being a man and raising and having a daughter, I think it puts so many things into context. That living for her and wanting her to have the opportunities that I have had because of my own gender, right? That became a bigger why for me. And yeah, so, but I don't know that, I don't know, I mean, I'm 41 and then, you know, we also had, you know, our daughter when I was in my late 30s.

So I think part of it's also just the wisdom of age too, you know?

[12:14] Paul: Yeah, definitely. We just had my daughter. I'm 38. My mom and dad had me when they were in their young 20s. It's, it's sort of a different game you're playing. I feel so blessed to have made so many mistakes when younger and really figure out a lot of these things.

And we'll definitely dive into that. I wanted to take a step back first and give the listeners a little perspective of your journey. So you decided to pivot into psychology, you ended up going to do a PhD, you you did a couple postdocs as well. Yeah. Where was your head at, at that time when you were doing the postdocs? Were you thinking, okay, my goal is to do my private practice, I'm going to make a good living doing that, and that's it?

Was that the mindset at that time? Because I think it was early 2000s, right? Yeah.

[13:06] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. So at that point it was like, like, yeah, early 2000s, 2009, 2000 to 2012. So, you know, I did my clinical training at Bandy and I had a job offer there. So I was going to work at the university at the counseling center, either at the counseling center or at the med school, and doing like therapy primarily, a little bit of assessment. And my vision was to do that and then do like private practice on the side or like maybe teach a class at a community college or something like that. Entrepreneurship wasn't even on my radar.

Again, you know, I don't, I don't fault my parents at all because I think they did what made the most sense to them and they did what they thought was right. And they thought they chose a path or they encouraged a path because they thought this was the safest. Like, my gosh, we have left all our people you know, left our country and what's the most best way and what's the most safe, right? So I've never taken a business or marketing class ever. You know, it's all been like just learning. So that was the path.

I mean, and it is wild because I just passed last year was my 10 years of getting licensed, you know, and I just think about how even in the span of 7 years, how much my career has evolved, you know, because at— I know the 2012 Mel would have been like, okay, I was going to be like a training director at the University Counseling Center or something, you know.

[14:46] Paul: Yeah. What started to plant a seed that a different direction was possible?

[14:51] Melvin Varghese: So I think throughout my life now, I look back, I think there were always seeds or markers there. Just to even share like a little story. My— I grew up primarily with my maternal grandparents and, you know, they lived— I remember they got like a refrigerator maybe in the '80s, right? But they had this room in the back of their house, which is like a storage room. So they would store grain and all of that kind of stuff in the back. And it's also where my grandpa kept like all of his tools.

And it was right next to the kitchen. So I spent a lot of time in that room. And I think particularly so my grandma could kind of keep an eye on me, but they basically gave me like hammers, saws, you know, wood, like nails. I mean, I must have been 5, 6 at most. And I mean, I think about that now, but I think there was just this, it fostered in me to always create and be a creator. And I think now looking back, anytime I have felt constrained or limited my creative potential, I think there was always a subconscious part of me that wanted to, to break out of that.

Yeah.

[16:09] Paul: I find a lot of people that take these paths, there's always stories like that. When you look back, it's for me, I was writing on the internet when I was young, I was building websites and then I went and got a career. 'cause that's what you were supposed to do.

[16:23] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[16:24] Paul: And then I'm, I'm a little older like you and slowly it was, oh wow, I can do those things I loved doing as a kid.

[16:32] Melvin Varghese: Mm-hmm.

[16:33] Paul: And actually pursue this. Um, what, what inspired you? What were some of your first experiments? I don't know if the podcast was your first experiment leaning into that or were there others before that?

[16:46] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, so I always had like little side hobbies, so like, You did website design. I learned how to like build computers and overclock them and all of that stuff, you know, to—

[16:55] Paul: Did you subscribe to PC Magazine growing up and stuff like that?

[17:00] Melvin Varghese: Listen, Paul, I didn't go to that level. It sounds like you may have.

[17:03] Paul: I did. I didn't build the computers, but I was just so nerdy about it. I loved it.

[17:08] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. But I think that's what I— but listen, my nerdy moment, like obsessively reading about, you know, every NVIDIA video card and, you know, how to maximize the whatever GPU or whatever on it, right? So I had moments like that where I was learning about computers. There was a season where I was like really like into landscape photography to the point where my parents, while I was in my PhD program, they were worried that I was going to drop out of my PhD program because I was really into photography and I wasn't really considering it, but I just thought there were all these hints that I was just— there was a creative part that needed to emerge and but I never put it together.

I— we can definitely talk more on this, but I think there was always this part of me and maybe part of it was like disappointing my parents or what would like sort of the Indian society, like our, you know, our community think like if I actually did something atypical, right? And so I always got to that edge and I just never actually took the leap. Yeah. What actually made me do it, I think partly was honestly moving to Philadelphia. Part of it was having a very supportive partner. Part of it was privilege, right?

Like my, you know, my, my partner is a professional, so we had the privilege of that, you know, dual income and health insurance and all that. Part of it was, I mean, I, so there were, you know, kind of two events. So, and I will talk more about our daughter, but like the first event was in 2015 when I was working in a group practice doing clinical work, fee-for-service. So, you know, if you see clients, you get paid, if you don't, you don't get paid. And I, you know, typically had really good show rates, but The Northeast got hit with a nor'easter. And you know, when you grow up in Texas your whole life, you don't— your understanding of snow is like, I don't— like, what's a nor'easter?

Like, we'll be fine, right? I mean, 30 inches of snow in about a day and a half later.

[19:19] Paul: Oh, this was— this is like March 2015. Yeah.

[19:23] Melvin Varghese: Yep.

[19:23] Paul: I remember this so vividly. Boston got the most snow in one week.

[19:28] Melvin Varghese: Yes.

[19:28] Paul: And my car literally became an ice block. And that was the last time I owned a car.

[19:35] Melvin Varghese: Like, I'm done with this. I'm done with you, Boston. I'm done with the car.

[19:42] Paul: Pretty much.

[19:43] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. But that's what happened. And so I ended up canceling about 22 clients because, I mean, telehealth wasn't a thing. I could have called them, but half my clients were panicking because they're, you know, like covered in snow and worried about You know, how are we going to power lines and everything else down? And we were saving up for the 20% down payment on our first home. And I had this moment where I said, oh my gosh, this is going to be my career if I don't take the typical employment route.

And I think that realization coupled with, you know, whatever that sort of work ethic that emerged In the early days, I woke up at 3:30 a.m. to record podcast episodes, and then I would take a shower at 7 and then get on a 7:50 or like 8:10 train to go to Center City, see clients for an entire day, come back by 6-something and repeat it.

[20:44] Paul: So that, that's pretty incredible. What bring alive that determination? Like, what, what was keeping you going? Were you just like, I need to make a change?

[20:58] Melvin Varghese: I think that that Nor'easter was what broke my creativity loose, like all of those different things. And I, I, I don't know if that explicitly like thought at the moment, but I would, I felt like You know, you're a creative person and you can do some stuff, but it's also very low risk too, right? Like, but also when you've had 20, you know, like $1,000+ of lost income, right? And you're like, oh my gosh, is this going to be my career? Like, I don't know that, that, that moment, that's what really propelled me. And then I realized I just, like, I love therapy, I love clinical work, but do I love it to the level that I love what I do now?

I don't think so, you know?

[21:52] Paul: [Speaker] Yeah, and talk to me about your wife. It sounds like she's been very supportive. How specifically, what, like, what stands out when you think of her support? Because I know this is so powerful and it's something I'm trying to talk about more, because Angie's support for me has just been so powerful for me. Really just accepting what I'm up to completely. Maybe bring that alive a little bit more, specific stories that stand out around that.

[22:24] Melvin Varghese: So I can share like two. So, you know, we identify as Christian and we actually met on a humanitarian trip to New Orleans. So we spent a week down there helping rebuild that community center hit by Hurricane Katrina. And so like her heart is very full of like service and a desire to help others. So when I like presented this podcast idea to her, like, and I, and I said, you know, I, I think this podcasting thing could really take off. I don't know.

I don't even think half the people know what a podcast is, right? This is 2015. But she said, you know, why don't you try it? Because you just, the worst case is it doesn't work out. And the best case is like it, it helps people, right? And so if she hadn't said those words, honestly, Paul, like, I don't think I would've started, you know, I would've just found some way to like rationalize that, you know, I just either gotta find another job or, you know, do something else to make it kind of work.

So that was like one, I think the sort of second one was, you know, when I got my first like negative review on the podcast, that was really hard. Cause I mean, you know, people like us, right? Like that are like, I think just genuinely kind people and we put our heart and soul into what we do. And then to have somebody on the internet that has presumably never met us, right? Like I remember my first—

[23:57] Paul: The haters never actually listened to the episodes. They just like react to the title or Yeah. The concept of what they think it is. But yeah, it really hurts early on.

[24:08] Melvin Varghese: It does. It does hurt.

[24:10] Paul: And now I'm like, eh, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

[24:13] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. I am too. I think we, I've gotten more immune to it, but that first one, like the person like likened, it was a great image actually, but it just kind of hurt still. They like likened my episodes to like a sandwich or something like full of fluff, but not substance or something around those. I was like, it's a great visual image. And that kind of hurts.

So yeah. But when, when I, when I got that review, I mean, she was just so encouraging. She was like, you know, the longer you do stuff like this, it's definitely going to happen. So.

[24:46] Paul: Yeah. How'd you come up with the name? Was that the name from the beginning? It's such a good name.

[24:53] Melvin Varghese: Man, like when I get asked this question, like—

[24:57] Paul: Selling the Couch, by the way.

[24:59] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. I want to give like a really like, yeah, I knew what I was doing. But to be honest, I was thinking the word couch, right? And I kept looking at like instantdomainssearch.com and trying to see like what are the words lined up? Couldn't find anything that was that interesting. And then literally in the shower, like I'm, you know, going through and I do this like dumb thing where sometimes I'll write on the tile, right?

Just in my hands. I haven't gone to the marker level yet, right? So I'm like couch. Thinking of like, you know, two words before or after. I was like, sell, sell the couch, sell, selling the couch. It's like selling the couch.

It's a good one. So I literally put on my towel, dripping wet. My wife's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I gotta go buy a domain. I gotta go see if it's available. So I go and lo and behold, selling the couch is available.

But what I didn't realize is my niche is now going from clinical to online income, right? And the symbolism of selling the couch like that has— that was pure accident.

[26:08] Paul: So yeah, it's at the beginning you probably thought, okay, this is the way to make money as a licensed therapist and then you sort of planted the seeds for your future metamorphosis of moving on from that. And yeah, yeah, it's such a— I love when names just flow like it's something I hear and it makes sense. People might have different meanings to it, but it just, it just works. It's, it's beautiful. And talk to me. So I couldn't find your early episodes.

I wanted to listen to them. I think you only go back to '98. Episode 98, but what were the first couple episodes about?

[26:56] Melvin Varghese: Oh, I'll have to fix that. Yeah. So the first episode was an intro one that I recorded 7 times because I didn't know how to edit albums and it was in GarageBand. So I was like, I gotta get this perfect. And so that was the first one. The second was, oh gosh, this is another story.

So It was a colleague here that I found out was local and he was a sports psychologist who was doing what they call like nutrition or weight training programs for athletes. Like he was selling these like digital versions, right? This is 2015. And I came to find out he was in Philadelphia and I reached out to him and I was like, hey, I'm launching this thing called the podcast. Like, I want to interview you. Would you be open to this?

And he's like, sure. And I was like really starstruck, right? And then he ended up coming to, coming to the house because he was like, I can just drive over there. So we literally, because I only had one mic, right? I've got one, you know, $50 ATR 2100.

[28:08] Paul: And the best starter mic there is.

[28:11] Melvin Varghese: Best starter mic. Best starter mic. I've got an ironing board, right? So I stick the ironing board in my little home office, stick the ATR right in the middle, and I was like, okay, Corey, I'm going to ask you a question and then I'm going to point to you and then you come over and talk into the mic and then you point to me when you're done. We did this for the entire episode. So it was basically about his journey.

And so the early days I interviewed a lot of therapists about how they built their practices, the lessons they learned. It was very scripted because I learned podcasting from like John Lee Dumas. So he had a very set format. And so in my mind, I thought that's the same way I should do a podcast. So I would have these standard questions. What's your favorite, you know, business book that's inspired you?

What's your favorite quote? What's, you know, so those were a lot of those episodes. And then I think my first solo episode was I think I talked about like my, like what I had learned from like a month of podcasting or something. That was, that was generally it. I, I didn't listen to the first, I would say, 60 episodes of my podcast for a number of years because I was like, this is so cringe. I don't know about this.

[29:27] Paul: Yeah, that makes sense. The, the early phase of creating. I try to tell people that are starting, there's sort of two phases of creating. Phase one, you, your only goal is to just ship a lot of stuff because you need to get through the period where you feel bad about what you're posting and you're worried about what people say. Now, what often happens in phase one is you realize nobody's listening or following. So quickly you start to realize, oh, nobody's listening.

I actually want people to realize this. And then you can kind of move on to Phase 2 and figure out, okay, what is the rhythm? How do I keep this going? How do I play long games like that? Yeah. Um, do you have a sense for when you shifted to your own Phase 2 in, in my made-up framework?

[30:19] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, I would say right around the 1-year mark because I pretty much recorded an episode every, and you know, when I had taken these podcasting courses, they had some, said some version of that, like you're gonna hate the first several recordings, right? But the first year I recorded pretty much every single week except the, like, the week between, like, right before New Year. And I was like really, like, very close to burning out and I realized I just couldn't sustain it. So that's where I made this transition from phase 1 to phase 2, which was, do I need to be podcasting every single week of the year? No, let me just like, let me try to think long-term sustainability versus like short-term. So this was again like a multi-year process, but I eventually went to podcasting 8 months of the year and it would be like, you know, basically 3 months on, 1 month off, 3 months on, 1 month off.

And then this year I'm going down to 7 months of the year. And then potentially next year, maybe only 6 months. But on the off months, we do replay episodes. But I'm designing it. So we basically take our most popular episodes and then we replay them on the off months. And I let people know, hey guys, you know, we're on break from the podcast and but please enjoy, you know, a replay from one of our most popular episodes.

[31:48] Paul: So I love this. It's something I've been thinking about. Uh, my, I haven't really designed this. I've just sort of stopped for a month or more at the time. And I mean, there's no episodes. The thing is I, I've never gotten emails before, but now I have a, a bit more listeners.

What have you noticed? Is there any cost to that in terms of following or things like that?

[32:12] Melvin Varghese: The, the taking a break, you're saying? Uh, yeah, I can, while we're talking, I can actually pull up some stats. Actually have some real stuff here.

[32:19] Paul: Live stats. I love it. We are connected to the internet and we are bringing in the data, people.

[32:25] Melvin Varghese: So I, um, I had never taken a sabbatical from the podcast and I took that last, from last November through April. So November, December, January, February, March, and then April. So this is, I recorded my last episode in November 2022. That month had 22,437. And from December to April, no, like replay episodes. So I'm just going to get ballpark.

December 21,000, January 28,000, February 23,000, March 23,000, April 24,000.

[33:04] Paul: So negligible. You're not growing, but you're not shrinking either.

[33:09] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, exactly. And for me, I don't know, like I know people differ on this, but like after some level, the download numbers are a little bit of a vanity metric because ultimately it's about making sure the right people are listening to your podcast versus, you know, like all people.

[33:29] Paul: Yeah. Which is a great thing about podcasts that people don't realize. It's a very intimate relationship and Often when people are big fans of a podcast, they love all of it, right? And your niche specifically, you don't need that, like, tens of thousands of people. Yeah, 1,000 people listening to an episode is incredibly valuable for you because you're talking to a very specific person. You're their lens onto entrepreneurship, right?

Like health. Health professionals want to figure out all this stuff, but through your eyes. Did you realize that at first, or was that a slow— I'm implying you understand that, which I assume you do, but—

[34:20] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, I think now I do, 8 years in. I don't think, you know, to be completely honest, Paul, like, because I didn't take any, like, business classes and I was figuring out stuff, like, I had a really hard time internalizing that people saw me as an expert, even though like I was doing the stuff that I was sharing. So yeah, that's been a journey, but I think you're spot on. Like, I mean, I get really nice emails from listeners saying, you know, I've listened to you for a lot of years. You know, literally there was somebody left a review, said, you know, I think about like when I'm struggling with something, I would, I think, what would Mel do in this situation? Like, that's an amazingly beautiful thing, you know?

And that's why I love podcasting because of, I don't know, there's just no other medium that I know of, like, where you get that level of intimacy and connection because you're literally in the ears of folks, right? And it's just something really powerful about it.

[35:19] Paul: Yeah, it's, it's very unique. I was, I was riding around on the bike this morning listening to your episode. About your reflections. I think this was a month or two ago about your sort of awakening of moving away from becoming this successful entrepreneur. I think early on it seemed like you were very drawn to this idea of becoming like a 7-figure entrepreneur, right? Talk to me about that.

How, how did you decide you wanted to aim at this? Was it other people you were following? Was it just something you didn't have another way of seeing success?

[36:02] Melvin Varghese: To be completely honest, like, I, you know, one of the things I really have struggled with in my life is I feel like because I didn't go the medical school route, there was like a disappointment with my parents, even though I got a PhD. It's, you know, So there was this, I think, subconscious part of me that I like disappointed my parents, disappointed my community, all of that stuff. Like I wasn't achieving something and financial is often the metric. So I looked basically at like what are the highest paid positions could make and let me just aim for that, you know, and aim even higher so that like nobody can question it. And it's so superficial. Like when I think about it now, I don't even think it was like a conscious thing, but that's where I kind of landed.

But I think as I've gotten older, I've realized there's so much more nuances in there, right? Like generally high income, right? Especially in traditional W-2 work means a lot of sacrifice of your own time. You know, your employer owns your time. All of that kind of stuff. And I just didn't see any of that stuff.

[37:19] Paul: Yeah. And so we'll definitely dive into that. When, when did it shift from doing a podcast on the side, um, to, oh, this might be something that could take off? I know you didn't end up leaving until the pandemic.

[37:34] Melvin Varghese: Yep.

[37:34] Paul: But, uh, when were the first like, oh my gosh, this stuff is taking off and how were you making money?

[37:43] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. So the early days, so before I started the podcast, I think I had put some feelers out like in some Facebook groups and a company had reached out to me that was basically creating— I forgot what it was like a website design service, I think, or it could have been that or electronic health record for therapists. And they were like, hey, have you thought about sponsors on the podcast? And at that point I told them no, because not that the money, but it was more like, I'm so new to podcasting and I guess there was some gut feel in there. I was like, I feel like introducing a sponsor at the beginning when I didn't have any sort of loyalty or recognition, I felt like that might devalue what I was saying or even, you know, or yeah, like degrade the brand in some sort of way. So I declined that.

I launched in March 2015. Pretty much, I would say from April, I started getting emails from other therapists asking how to do this podcasting thing. How did you launch your podcast? How did you get in this like new and noteworthy thing? What did you do? And so I remember like, gosh, this is You know, and this is a whole side thing, but like when I was working at the group practice, like, you know, I was getting like reimbursed maybe $40 to $70 a session, right?

And I was like, you know what, I want to like double that, right? Or at least double that. So I charged, I can't remember if it was exactly like $150 or $200, something around in that ballpark. And people were willing to pay it. And I was like, oh my gosh. So, but I quickly realized I was just doing the same trading type for income, but just done more higher, right?

So in November of that year, I launched a podcasting course for— by, well, for— I called it initially for health, wellness, and fitness podcasters because I was so scared to niche my course down, even though therapists were my primary listeners. But we had 8 buyers at $297 for that course. And that's when I realized that there could be potentially something there.

[39:59] Paul: Yeah. What I've seen is it doesn't matter the dollar amount as much. It's just that, oh wow, people, this is something I created. I genuinely put it out there and people are buying this. This, this vote of confidence is so powerful. Yeah.

[40:16] Melvin Varghese: Yep. And I think I'm a big fan of this because it it's exactly what you said. It propels you to do something like you— it propels you and gives you a courage that you probably wouldn't have on your own, right? Like you've got one-on-one consult. Oh gosh, this is amazing. Now I'm gonna, you know, thinking about a course and people are saying like they want to know more about it and what should be in the course.

They're telling me what should be in there. Like, you know, we've got beta pricing and oh my gosh, people are signing up. Like, Yeah, 100%.

[40:51] Paul: So pandemic happens in 2020. You are working in an office still. Talk to me about what happened over those few months and what came next.

[41:04] Melvin Varghese: So I was down to 1 day of clinical work. Again, I'm the example of like very slow and deliberate. Like I literally pulled back like half day at a time.

[41:13] Paul: I love that, though. I think this is something I talk about in my book, is that this, like, leap— when was the moment you knew and took this bold action? It's fake. If you dive into people's stories— and this is really what I'm trying to do with this podcast— is it's this long process. It often takes 10, 15 years of this small thing, that small thing, then this happened. And then often the trigger at the end is just like, oh yeah, I was headed in this direction anyway.

Now it's finally time. I did 99% of the work.

[41:47] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely not as glorious as sometimes it's made out to be. And then I think that perspective also negates the nuances of people's lives, right? Like, so for example, for me, we had just bought our first home. So there was like mortgages to think about.

And, you know, we were like thinking about having a child, right? So a lot of budgeting stuff. And so it just didn't make sense, you know, at, on any sort of level for me to make that kind of leap. And in fact, for me, you know, I've struggled part of, you know, we started our conversation talking about the cost of like the work ethic and all of this, but I think part of it for me has been a struggle with constant anxiety, like persistent anxiety. And I got to, I think, a level— if I had made that leap, just the proverbial leap, I think my anxiety would've flooded me and I don't— I think it would've crippled me. So I needed to do this in slow, intentional, bite-sized pieces.

[42:49] Paul: Yeah. I love examples like this because it tells people, oh, the courageous leap is the thing people do and it gets celebrated, but there are other models.

[42:59] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. Yep.

[43:00] Paul: And for, for me, the off-ramp was freelancing. So wasn't in love with freelancing, but it was, okay, this is something I can do to make money. I have no idea what's coming next, but I'll just buy some time and figure it out as I go. So 2020, you go all in on this. Talk to me about the shift from aiming at this 7-figure entrepreneur sort of model toward your framework, frame of thinking about this, which I really love, is more like healthy business. I love the word healthy business as opposed to just thinking about money.

[43:45] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. And to like close the loop on that previous question, I was down to one day of clinical work. And, you know, we learned about COVID-19. I was doing assessments at this clinic and about 2 weeks in they were like, hey, Mel, like, or Dr. V, can you come back in? Because, you know, there's just, we were so like slammed.

I was in, I do these assessments in probably like a 10-foot by 10-foot room, no windows, no ventilation, 100% guaranteed I would've gotten COVID. I wasn't worried about me getting COVID, but my partner, has asthma. We, you know, our baby was an acute baby, had some breathing issues early on, and I was like, there is no way I'm gonna, you know, like, no amount of money is worth, like, you know, potentially, like, losing a child or, you know, any of those things. So that's what caused it. What shifted for me? So it is like, I think the transformation started happening in 2018 when our baby was born.

So We actually weren't sure we could have our own kids. We struggled with almost 2 years with infertility. And I, every screening, Paul, like every, I mean, you understand this, like every screening, everything was perfectly normal. And I was getting ready to go to Podcast Movement, which happened to be in Philadelphia that year, Monday morning. And it's like 5 in the morning, like I'm brushing my teeth, My wife screams, come out, and there's like water all over the carpet. And I was like, what in the world is going on?

And then like it clicks, we sprint. I mean, like drive. I've never, I don't even remember that drive. Drive to the ER. And it's like 30, 32 and a half, or they said, I think 32 weeks, something around there. They basically tell us they get, we have to stay there until the baby's, until at least 36 weeks.

At that point, they'll do emergency C-section and get her out. We lasted about 4 days and the baby was having, uh, basically the placenta was collapsing on the baby. And so the baby was having difficulty breathing. And so there ended up needing to be an emergency C-section on that Thursday morning at around 3:00 AM. And I remember sitting. I mean, it's always like this, like what you think of the movies, right?

Like I remember like cold, that hospital white lighting, right? That's the worst. It's worse, right? And very like, I literally by myself in this, there's 3 chairs there. I'm in this hallway. They said I couldn't go in during the delivery because there was emergency.

It was too high risk. And I remember them saying like, the baby's out. Then I don't hear the baby crying. I don't hear anything. I don't hear my, like, I mean, my wife's at this point, like under, under, right? So, and then it's like the longest 90 seconds of my life.

And finally I hear the baby crying. Come to find out they had tried to give my wife to sleep and the med, it didn't work. So they had to give, I guess I didn't learn all this, but these, the beds actually rotate different ways and to make the, like the, I don't know, blank name, but like make her go under and it, the baby ended up getting some of it. And so that was what the delay was. And I shared that because, you know, at that point, 7 and a half weeks early, 3 pounds, 12 ounces, barely the size of a football. I mean, I have some early pictures.

It's like she was like literally, you know, that big. And 2 and a half weeks in the NICU, saw her, like visit her every day. And then followed by a year and a half of early childhood intervention because she had low muscle tone and couldn't sit up on her own. So I just share all of that because in 2020, what made me stop focusing on revenue actually happened in 2018 because I realized how close, how precious life was. And we can all have it taken away from you and the things that we think are the most important, you know, I mean, my, literally my wife could have died and my baby could have died. And so I just thought, you know, I want— I always wanted a daughter and I wanted to design.

I just thought, you know, what if I stop measuring everything based on revenue? But what if I start more measuring it based on the quality of connection that I have with my, my wife and with our baby? And so I immediately dropped to a 4-day workweek. So we did daddy-daughter days on Fridays. First year and a half was all PT, like early childhood intervention stuff. So, yeah, we have videos of this where, you know, they are literally teaching these kids like how to do stuff, right?

So, I mean, there's one exercise I would do where I would prop her up against a wall and I would be like, I say it emotional, but be like, you know, like a foot away and I'll be like, come to dada. And then she'd like have this fear and then she would see me and then she'd walk and then we'd go back like just a little bit further. And then, you know, and then we'd try that again over and over. So I don't know, when you do all of that stuff, it just, it puts life into perspective. It puts business into perspective, you know? I mean, what is the point of accomplishing all of this, right?

If we, and be fully present with the people that we love the most. You know, that's at the core of it for me.

[49:39] Paul: So yeah, it's— wow, I appreciate you sharing that much. I think— I mean, we were very lucky with like a healthy delivery and a baby, but I mean, just— she's 12, 13 weeks now, and you just understand like what a little kid means. Like, it really is everything. It has made everything so clear for my wife and I around how, like, really doubling down on how we are already trying to build our life. I think before it was a vague sense of we want time and freedom in our life, and now it is— this is the actual way we want to spend that time and freedom.

[50:27] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. Yep.

[50:29] Paul: How have you designed, like, how, how do you spend your weeks around spending time with your daughter, maybe in the first couple of years and how you're doing it now?

[50:40] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. So this will be, she just started preschool. So this will be our first summer. So this will be a new experiment here. But the first, first several years, so, you know, I just have this thing where like I love like home-cooked meals, right? So we would have home-cooked meals, a lot of time together.

Fridays were always daddy-daughter days. So those PTs, once she like kind of graduated, we moved them to, you know, my whole thing was to give her lots of experiences over stuff, right? And so I thought, okay, what are some realistic experiences that we can give? Because first started like at the park, like daily trips to the park that moved to like arboretums, then to museums. And what I really wanted her to do is a couple of things. So one is like learn to love nature and, and then learn to like not sort of be dependent on like tech, right?

So we actually tried for a season where we like did the iPad thing and then we either noticed like there were some subtle changes in her behaviors. And so I was like, you know what, let's not do that. So we've kind of not done that. I mean, she watches TV, you know, a couple of times in the morning a week, but it's on the TV like we used to watch, you know, it's not on a thing. And then once it's done, she knows once one little, you know, thing of Super Wings or whatever is done, you know, we're done, right? And other than that, I mean, it's a lot of reading.

We're doing So my parents had this thing with my brother and I where they would take us to the library every week. We'd have to get 7 books and I carried that same action. Yeah. One for each day of the week, you know, 8:00 TV watching in Indian households. Come on now. So I, but I carried that tradition on with her.

And so we do, we do library days after school. It's on Friday. And then we have this little thing where she picks her books, then she, comes and cuddles with me in one of the library couches and we read one of the books. And we also— a new ice cream shop opened up so that after library time, it's ice cream with Daddy. Then weekends, I mean, like, it's just us and with our loved ones, you know, we try to— I think we're— so there's a couple of things we're really thinking through is like, one is, you know, Ali talks about this, right? Like the skills and the universal toolbox.

And I love that phrasing because What I'm trying to do is help her develop skills that are translatable beyond a major so that they compound over time. And so we're still really early on. But, you know, some of the things that I want is teach her how to build a computer, personal finance, coding, art, learning how to draw and paint some sort of music, definitely sports, because I grew up playing basketball. But not in a way that's— and I don't know, like, again, this is such a grace. Like, I don't know that I have it all figured out, but I don't want it to become obsessive. I want her to think more holistically.

Right. And I think that's the major stuff. One thing we've recently been talking about, I haven't— I may not have time to implement it this summer, but we were thinking about just grabbing like an Airbnb for a month in a random city. So first starting in the US and just immersing her there in that culture and, you know, doing the camp there or, you know, for a month because it's just that's such a different experience than like, you know, a weekend trip or a 5-day trip. Right. And then coming back and then eventually over time, more international.

[54:29] Paul: I love that. I highly recommend that, if only for your personal growth. I think Angie and I living in other countries, uh, has been so powerful. Just, I mean, just going to a grocery store in a place that's not yours. Yeah, you start noticing the world in a different way.

[54:49] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[54:49] Paul: And, uh, we're actually doing this this summer. We're going back to Taiwan for 2 or 3 months. Oh wow. And yeah, it's— we're just so excited.

[54:59] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[55:00] Paul: To like bring our daughter. Of course our daughter won't remember this trip, but we can kind of see it through her eyes and helps, helps me connect as well to Taiwan, which increasingly feels like an important home and place for me. But yeah, We're definitely looking to do that. I think what we should probably do in the future is just get all the creator dads in one place.

[55:29] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[55:30] Paul: For a month.

[55:30] Melvin Varghese: 100%. That would be amazing. Like every future startup like emerges outta that weekend, right?

[55:40] Paul: Well, this is, this is a really interesting evolution 'cause our paths are very new, right? They weren't even legible until the early 2010s. Intense. And now there's more and more people doing them. There's people like you and I. I've been doing this for 6 years, um, you've been doing it for 8+ years.

And people are starting to have families because that was always the knock. Yeah, you can do this, what about when you have kids? Yeah, it's like, well, we're all figuring it out and finding out as we go. Um, yeah, but it's really cool to see more, especially men, doing this. I think for me the men I was surrounded by in the corporate world were just like, yeah, family first. And then they're putting in 80 hours a week and you're like, hmm, I'm like, not my interesting version of family first, right?

So yeah. And I think it's hard at the same time because if you're like me, I love what I'm doing, right? And when I don't do it, I sort of miss it.

[56:42] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[56:43] Paul: So yeah, it's a constant balance. Right now we're basically just taking it day by day and seeing what there's space for, seeing what there's not space for.

[56:52] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. And I think especially in those early days, I think that's definitely the right approach, you know, because I think the counter to that is often imagining what you should be doing, right? This sort of mythical, like, I'm supposed to be doing this and then like feeling like you never measure up. And I think that's not a good headspace, I think, for anyone, you know.

[57:12] Paul: Yeah, this is why I spent 5 years writing about detaching your identity from work and sort of memeing myself into my own ideas, right? So, so it was a good preparation. Uh, I think you've gone through a similar shift too, uh, around not seeing yourself. Um, you had— the way you put it was selling the couch is something I do. Not who I am. How did you make that shift?

[57:39] Melvin Varghese: Well, a lot of therapy, a lot of spiritual work. I think one, first and foremost, I think it's really hard for people like us that have achieved, right? And, you know, in terms of either degrees or like professions, how did I make the shift? I think part of it is You know, like my podcast, I never— Paul, like, to be honest, like, if I could get like 100,000 downloads in like 10 years, I would have been like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Right? And now you average that, I would say every, what, about 4 months or so.

Right. And I, I kind of like— again, this has been very slow. I thought like getting up to there, you get up to that level and you're like, oh, this sounds, this is a little anticlimactic, right? And then you're like, maybe it'll be cool after 500,000. You get up there and you're like, it's awesome and you're grateful for it. So I think I've started over time, I think I started to detach myself from the outcome, but more process on just more work on the process and getting better at the craft, you know, um, and I think I much more enjoy that, you know.

[59:02] Paul: What are some of the tools you've been able to apply from the therapist toolkit to your current journey?

[59:09] Melvin Varghese: So when I was doing therapy, you know, I worked particularly with a lot of like high achievers, very smart people, and one like common theme that would often come up is this sense of emptiness, especially when they are— have been used to like succeeding so much and then they like, quote unquote, fail, right? Whether it's like bad grades or they didn't get a promotion, whatever it is, right? So I think one thing I took away is like, I don't know, like putting our entire identity on achievement, right? And letting the ups and downs of our self-worth get get wrapped up in that, I think it's such a dangerous game to play, you know? So I think that's one. I think another lesson I think I learned from therapy is, I mean, honestly, like letting go of the result, you know?

I took a lot of, like, I was trained in ACT, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, so which has a huge mindfulness component to it. And, you know, there's like this image, you know, there's this story they always like say, you know, like, Imagine your thoughts like leaves running, you know, going down a stream, right? And I think there's a lot of applicability to that, right? It's only when we get hooked with our thoughts that, and we make real meaning out of our thoughts that we usually get like, you know, hooked. And so that's like a big thing for me. It's like, I don't know, like I heard this phrase, like, and it's probably a little bit of cliché phrase, but like, don't get too high with the highs and don't get too low with the lows.

And I think that's what I think I've gotten better with. I'm grateful for it. I'm like really humbled by it. And yet at the same time, it doesn't make me the whole of who I am.

[01:00:50] Paul: What's the work that when you stop doing it, you, you miss and you crave doing a bit more of?

[01:01:00] Melvin Varghese: I think like online creation in some sort of way. Because I love like, again, in bursts, right? Like we have a lot of systems and, you know, stuff like that. But like, if I don't do that, if I don't meaningfully produce content to get what I'm feeling or thinking about, I think there's like a void that I feel. Yeah.

[01:01:25] Paul: Do you have any path role models?

[01:01:28] Melvin Varghese: Pat Flynn is one. Smart Passive Income because I think, I think he models really well like being a parent and doing the entrepreneurship thing. So that's one. I mean, I really like Rachel Rogers, you know, particularly because there's just not a lot of like people of color entrepreneurs. So Rachel Rogers, We Should All Be Millionaires. Yeah, I mean, those are like the, the 2 kind of big ones that are coming to mind.

[01:02:01] Paul: You know, what stands out about Pat Flynn's parenting?

[01:02:05] Melvin Varghese: He lives out what he preaches, right? Like, you know, his whole brand is Smart Passive Income, right? And on the surface, that looks like another one of those like salesy, slimy, like, you know, I'm making, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? But Then when you look at his life and, you know, he, at least what we can see, right, on social media and these things, right? Like you see like how invested he is with his kids when he talks about, you know, being on the podcast, like on his podcast, how he records around the kids' schedule. I think he started a, you know, a new channel with, with his son on the Pokémon stuff.

Yeah. So I think that's like stuff like that's cool and You know, and I've gotten to meet Pat a couple of times and he's like a genuinely seems like a very kind guy. So I like that, you know, I really admire how grounded he is despite that level of influence and success. Yeah, that's the stuff that I want, you know, sort of modeled and what I want to think about.

[01:03:13] Paul: I love that those sort of role models are so important, and I'm constantly looking for people that are on the dad path ahead of me. So definitely looking at people like you as well. But, um, what's, what is your ideal day now?

[01:03:30] Melvin Varghese: Oh, um, so I'm not going to bust out the Excel document here, the color-coded one, but, uh, you have a color-coded document? Yeah, I do. I have a color-coded schedule. So Monday through Thursdays I work, right? Like, so each day is themed because I realize I can only kind of focus on one thing. So for example, Tuesdays tend to be podcast and content creation days.

Monday, Wednesdays are deep work days, usually related to our mastermind. Thursdays tend to be like our mastermind days. The mornings from— again, I've had to like flex and figure this out and Right now, right, summer, I think we'll throw an interesting wrench into things, but 9 to 1 is my deep work times. I usually have like uninterrupted time, 1 o'clock to 1:45. I grab a hike every single day. I do a 3-mile hike.

We have a park that's like 5 miles away. Perk of living in Pennsylvania because the temperatures are wonderful at 1 PM, you know. So I grab a hike, then I come back, grab a quick shower, do a 25-minute power nap. I take a nap 7 days a week. I grab— yeah, I grab a 3-mile hike 5 days a week that turns to 6 miles on Saturdays and Sundays. And then I go— we usually go pick up our daughter from school, drop her off at grandparents' house who watch her for a couple hours.

And then right, like right now in about 20 minutes, I'm going to go pick her up. And then I am on daddy mode. So I will usually give her a bath. We usually cook a home-cooked meal. So I'll do that. And then it's the 3 of us for the evening, lots of reading, and then hanging out, playing.

And then I wrap up my wife's— these are the little things, right? Which you just so appreciate having an optimal spouse, right? Like, so from 8 to 8:30 every day, my wife's like, just go do what you need to do, kind of wind down, because she knows how my brain works. So I have this acupressure mat that I lay on every night and I listen to like Jay Shetty on the Calm app. And then I do like a 5-minute journal thing just to kind of get everything out of my head. Then I am in bed, honestly, by like 8:30, 8:45 at the latest.

And then I get up at 4:50, usually get a workout in, like a HIIT workout. Again, this is not possible in the early days. This is only after the baby starts sleeping through the night, but it's pretty much my routine.

[01:06:22] Paul: I love that. It's, it sounds like you basically aim to do about 4 to 6 hours of work a day. Is that about right?

[01:06:29] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:30] Paul: So 4 days a week, you're working about 25 to 30 hours a week.

[01:06:36] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, exactly. And those last 2 hours of the day, the 3 to 5, it's what I call it learning time. So I basically thematically learn different things.

[01:06:45] Paul: Oh, I'm in your learning block.

[01:06:47] Melvin Varghese: You are?

[01:06:47] Paul: Oh yeah, yeah, you are.

[01:06:48] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, you are my learning bot. It's okay. I can make exceptions.

[01:06:52] Paul: I have to teach you something now.

[01:06:55] Melvin Varghese: Yeah. Come on. You have like 2 minutes to do this, but I'm learning like different stuff that I'm interested in right now. I'm learning how to write like better prompts on ChatGPT and, you know, on Midjourney as well. I've got one day for online course learning, one on podcast learning. And that's pretty much my days and then weekends, lots of time with family, lots of time doing, you know, adventures.

We just made it out to Lancaster, Pennsylvania last weekend and pretty much it. I like a simple, boring life and I realize that more than ever now.

[01:07:32] Paul: It sounds delightful to me, to be honest.

[01:07:35] Melvin Varghese: Yeah.

[01:07:36] Paul: So yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[01:07:39] Melvin Varghese: No, it's your— I mean, it's— you're right. Like, that's a great word. And I think that's been the biggest thing for me. It's like, what is a delightful life? And I think that's a question all of us should ask, right? And versus just assuming like this is what a delightful life should look like, you know?

[01:07:55] Paul: I love it. Where can people learn more about what you're up to? Where can they find the podcast, the other things you're working on if they want to learn more?

[01:08:03] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, absolutely. So the website is over at sellingthecouch.com. These days I'm writing a lot on LinkedIn, so you can definitely search for my name and find me on LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, I mainly just write about my journey as a course creator and a podcaster and, you know, sort of the real life sort of lessons I'm learning along the way.

[01:08:24] Paul: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. Excited to continue to follow your journey and learn from you and glad to have connected with another girl dad doing the creator life out there.

[01:08:38] Melvin Varghese: Yeah, absolutely, Paul. Feelings are mutual. And I really am just grateful. I feel like this is the first of many conversations. So I really do appreciate you and thank you for, you know, being such a good model for, for many of us as well.