"My Name Is Nemo and I Don't Do Small Talk"

[01:40] Paul: So today I am talking with Nemo Achong. He is the founder of Empjoyment and just an incredible person I have discovered over the past year who shares very similar missions in bringing the human side of work alive. And I think he's somebody I've learned a lot from. I'm really excited to dive into his story today. Welcome to the podcast, Nemo.

[02:10] Nemo Ashong: Paul, it is an absolute pleasure to to be here. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

[02:16] Paul: So you described yourself growing up as somebody that was mostly focused on music and fun and mostly just a silly person. What was that person like?

[02:29] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, I mean, let me, let me ask you a quick question on that. I'm going to answer this here. How real can I get with you today?

[02:35] Paul: Let's do it. I want, I want your full self. That's what you're about.

[02:39] Nemo Ashong: So That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And this is something that, Paul, it's kind of happening in real time. It's a place that I'm exploring a lot right now. Silly, fun, you know, music that really is Nemo still, right? But there was so much more.

So here, getting real with it here. I grew up right outside of Camden, New Jersey, which was, when I was growing up, the number 5 most dangerous city in America. Good times out there. But I'm an African American male and, and really an African American, first generation out of Africa. And my parents, they did really well for us, but they had to wake up at 4:30 in the morning to get to work and come home each night at like 9:30. So growing up where I did, what was interesting was that I wasn't quite African and I definitely, and I also wasn't American.

So when I say African American, I don't mean like Black or anything. Right. And so what, what me growing up, I found that I actually didn't really fit in with the, uh, the Black community around me, the friends that were there, the people that were, that were like my age there. Um, and I was really fortunate to get into the gifted program very early in my, um, in my childhood. So it put me with a completely different set of people, um, on a regular basis. I was lucky.

My— where I grew up was really multinational. We had people from all over the world. It was actually really quite, quite great. Um, but I found when I was out there that like I needed to find my own way. And look, I'm talking about this now as an adult. At the time, I just made it.

I just made it work.

[04:23] Paul: Yeah.

[04:23] Nemo Ashong: Uh, but you know, I had to find my own way of being able to to find a way to belong, right? It was like, I didn't really, I didn't quite fit in with the Black Americans, didn't quite fit in with the Americans, and I wasn't quite African. And I was just never really in a spot. I really had my own place. And what I found was that being silly, being fun, having the music allowed me to really be able to be integrated in any world that I ended up being in. The interesting thing about that here, and I'm just going to go straight for it, Paul, you let me know if— Yeah, go for it.

But, you know, the interesting thing about it here is silly fun, all this kind of stuff here. It really was for me just an opportunity to find a way to make sure that I can stay. Here it is. My number one greatest fear is being alone. And what I found is growing up, there was a certain thing about me that if I didn't kind of turn on, people would be intimidated by me. People would— there was like a fear that would come from it.

So I actually learned at a very young age, I'm someone who really radiates joy. And I'm actually so thrilled about this. I'm so fortunate to have had these experiences to come from it. But my joy comes, I have a huge smile. People like, they're like, you light up a room. And that's intentional, right?

Because I had to learn very early, how do I, how do I like, how do I help you not feel intimidated by me? And I can't even just have you be like neutral to me. Like if, because I'm afraid of being alone, I want to be able to bring you into my world. All right.

[06:05] Paul: Yeah.

[06:05] Nemo Ashong: And so this, this fun silliness all kind of came as a manifestation of like, how do I, how do I help you embrace me into your world as well, right?

[06:14] Paul: How early were you aware of that, just walking into a room? I mean, that, that must take such incredible energy to need to know I am walking in a room and I need to instantly help people feel at ease. Of course there's the positive side of that, but it also takes a lot of energy from you.

[06:33] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, I, I— there's two things that are going on. I'm thinking right now as to how early I was for to that awareness. I think that— I feel like it was something that was instilled in me growing up, you know, like, you know, you're not like those families that you see on TV, like, you know, and there's something I experienced myself just trying to find my way in. I actually don't have a really good sense as to what it was like as a child to really do this. It's something I've now come to realize now. But what's really interesting is that the energy drain continues to this day.

It's actually very— and now I'm actually aware of it, where what's been happening— it's really fun, Paul. Like, I say it's fun because I get to experiment with me. I'm in control now. But, you know, nowadays I can— I used to always walk around with a smile or come into a room and just like be that burst of energy, you know. People are like, wow, I really feel— I feel filled with energy when you're around. And it was because I was expending my energy on their behalf.

Right. Um, and recently I've been playing around with just like, if I'm not feeling it, yeah, not feeling it, you know, just walking into the room and being there. Um, and it's— I, I appreciate your awareness of like the energy, um, consumption that it takes. Like it's not It's just really, really interesting because there's a version of me that a lot of people experience and take it to be like, oh, this must be who he is. He must be. And it's like almost one-dimensional and it's full of joy.

One day, like the times where I'm not going to say I take it away, but the time where I don't lead with that joyful energy, the people that come up, is everything okay? Is everything going on? Is everything all right? Someone the other day came up to me. I wasn't leaving. I was having a conversation with him.

And he said, you are intimidated, Nemo. I don't know if you know this, but you are intimidated. And Paul, that was like the thing that I was trying to avoid, like through my childhood, through my college days, and while working as well.

[08:44] Paul: Right.

[08:44] Nemo Ashong: You know, it's been really interesting now to be in a place where I'm like, Okay, I am intimidating. Even my joy intimidates people. So like, I'm not like, I'm at a place where I was like, let's just embrace it. Let's go with it and say, sure, now what?

[09:04] Paul: Well, I think sometimes people, so people are naturally comfortable around people that are down, right? I think that everyone just wants to check in. Are you okay? Things okay? But it's interesting you mentioned that people are uncomfortable when you're bringing a lot of energy, right? And I think it's a deeper fear of just being scared of like letting yourself be that inner child, right?

[09:32] Nemo Ashong: I think there's definitely something to that. I think there's something. So this has been over the last year in particular. I've really been stepping into understanding more about this, understanding more about the energy that I bring, cultivating and choosing to do that purposefully. It was something that I was accidentally doing without— or subconsciously doing, you know, and some things that come up is like there's a power. I will use the word power.

There's like of being impervious because I'm allowing myself to be so free to enjoy life to that extent. Right. And there's something about that that's like, whoa, wait, hold on. Like, you're really— you're really enjoying this. You're a grown man that smiles with more than just his teeth. But when you smile, we actually feel that you're happy.

Yeah. What's that about?

[10:23] Paul: Yeah, and people can see it. I've noticed it that I've always been a happy person, I think, at least presented that externally. And I think especially carving my path over the last year, I've really, I think I've found a different level and I can be like calmer and not showing that external happiness. People can just feel it from you. It's kind of hard to explain, but I definitely resonate with what you're sharing, right? People can just see, even if you're not smiling, but also if you are, like, okay, this is genuine.

There's something deeper there. This guy's onto something. He doesn't know where he's headed, but he's tapped into something that brings him alive. Which leads me to the question, like, what is bringing you alive these days?

[11:16] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, what's bringing me alive these days is actually helping more people to just be fully expressed. I work as a coach, I work as an entrepreneur, and I create experiential learning opportunities for people, um, really within the realm of them being able to be more authentic, to be more unique, and to be more powerful. And I say those three things here really intentionally. So in life, I'm on a mission. My mission is to bring together a truly inclusive and empowered world.

When I think about true inclusion, it's like you have to— at some point, inclusion starts to break down because there's 7+ billion people on this earth. So it's like, how does this all work? How can we all feel included if there are The only thing we have in common is the fact that we're different. Like, that's the one thing that's universal to everyone. And so for me, what I'm about is using that, using that difference there and saying, great, what if we— what if that was the best thing about being human? The best thing about being human was the fact that we were different, right?

How do we celebrate that? How do we value that? When we think about what is the purpose of inclusion in the workplace, what's the purpose of inclusion in life? It's the fact that, like, we can build upon each other's skills. I don't need to be you, Paul, to like be able to benefit from being around you. Right?

There's things that you do that are so specific to you that like are so natural, so easy. Like that to me is like when we're really being inclusive, we get to that point. We allow a level of collaboration that goes beyond just innovation. It's like innovation is a natural side effect. It's a natural occurrence. Diversity is a natural occurrence from there.

Right? So it lights me up to really help people value themselves first and foremost. And that's important to me because of the empowerment part. So I got involved in diversity inclusion back in New York City when I was working at a tech company. And one of the most pivotal moments of my life actually happened while I was there. There was affinity groups and there's a group for the Black people of the organization and really supporting that.

And I was walking down the hall one day and someone came up to me and said, "Hey, I'll see you at the meeting later on." And I'm like, "I have literally no clue. We have no projects together." He's like, "Oh no, the Black Alliance, I'll see you there." I'm like, "Absolutely not." I used to run away from those things because I'm like, realistically, this is not— it feels uncool of me to say this. So I'm going to say it because I'm practicing that. I was like, are we self-segregated? We have a chance to really be a part of this. Are we self-segregated?

And I watched the movie. The movie was called White Like Me. And when that movie came out, it was part of the Black History Month celebration. When I watched it, it was the first time I was like 29 or 30 years old. It was just not that long ago. It was the first time I really saw like, wait, there's actually like systemic oppression here.

Like there's things out here where it's like the system is set up in a certain kind of way. And I was saying that as an African-American male in a tech company. I was saying that as an African-American male who used to be an actuary. And what you may or may not know is that 2% to 3% of all actuaries were African-American. 2 to 3% of all people in tech were African American. I sang in a barbershop chorus that was way less than 2 to 3%.

And I'm not in Singapore now, like, you know, so in watching that movie, I was like, wait a minute, I'm really not supposed to be here. Like, I don't understand. Like, realistically, I'm really not supposed to be here. Like, the system is actually set up against us here. And what came for me, it was like, hey, but I am here. So if that's the case, what do I want to do with it?

And I started getting more active with some of the— really what happens, I started realizing that I'm in a place where a lot of other people can't speak. Right? I'm one of the few people who might have a voice in a place where a lot of other people may not. And it started to get to me. When I would go to some of my other colleagues and small things were going off that they had control over. They'd gone to all the right schools, they'd gotten the right jobs, they were living in the right places, you know, they were making enough money, all that stuff there, right?

And yet when things would start going wrong, they really weren't stepping up to address it, right? You know, they weren't really— they weren't really stepping up to address it. And what I felt, and this goes back to the whole, like, draining of energy part. There's another part of it all there where it's like, there's one part of it being, Nemo, you're too much, right? You have a whole lot of energy. And the other part of it is like, Nemo, we need you to give us energy, right?

So the Nemo, you're too much part kept— I kept rubbing up against that, right? Where there was like a certain way I was supposed to be. Because if I was any more than that, other people would feel less than, other people would feel— the word triggered comes to mind— intimidated, all that kind of stuff. So that's what's firing me up now, is to help create space for people to bring all of themselves there and to help elevate and empower others to be able to step up into like all of who they are so that everyone has room to just be.

[17:11] Paul: Yeah. And so this is, this is a super complicated thing, right? I think, uh, how do, how do you separate basically a company experience, like the challenges of being your full self in a company versus some of the things you might also be facing as a minority in those companies? Like how do, how do you separate those two things? How do you think about that? I know you've thought like so much and deeply about this, like, like what's happening with like diversity and inclusion.

I think a lot of people reach out to me like from minority backgrounds and be like, Paul, like, what do you really think about this? This is messed up, isn't it? And like, what is— what are some of the challenges? What are some of the things people are missing with some of these diversity and inclusion programs?

[18:08] Nemo Ashong: Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to speak from, from just my own perspective here. And like now I'm working as an entrepreneur, so I'm out of this directly. But I spend a lot of time with people who are still working through this and some of the things that come up here. I think, I think the word, the word diversity right now is, is, is the, is part of the problem.

And that feels really edgy for me to say that. But I think it's like the focus of it. Even the question that you posed originally, like, how do you separate like the work context from like the rest of the world context? And like, that's a divide. And that's the point. Like, that divide there is the problem.

You know, that divide of like, when I think about how diversity and inclusion is typically handled or in corporations and corporations that are working really hard at this, that really do care about this, like, It's coming from the diversity part first. So what happens is that we have, you have a global body and they're separated into various, these are different identities, right? And what I have found, so what I found, let me just be more specific about this. Like there might be a Black network, there might be a women's network, it might be an LGBTQ network. What I found from that is that that's awesome. That's wonderful.

And it's— and there is an actual place for me. However, there isn't a lot of space within each of those groups, right? Each of those different groups there have been divided and they're all different silos. They all kind of sit alone. And there's some things around like, how do you bridge over from intersectionality, from being an ally and so on and so forth? But they're inherently like different divisions that sit as their own separate pillars.

And for me, the place, the opportunity that we have there is really around what I would call like the umbrella inclusion, right? So what is there an umbrella thing that kind of goes across all everything that allows room to connect all of us regardless of whether or not you identify with a specific group regardless of if you're facing those issues directly, so on and so forth. Because the challenge that I found and I keep running against is that the diversity conversation right now, or the inclusion conversation, diversity inclusion conversation, is not very inclusive. It's not very inclusive and it's really hard. It's one of those things where I feel that there's a right way to go about doing it. There's a right way, there's a right thing to say.

And if you say the wrong thing, depending on who you're talking to, it can go in any direction. All right. And so it's full of contradictions and paradoxes. You know, it's like, and I'll give you an example just to make it concrete. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this, Paul, but like, hey, this is my issue. I have to fight for my own issue.

Like, don't come in and try and tell me how to solve it or tell me what to do. Right? There's that, that's one side and I'm oversimplifying it, but let's, let's put that out as one. And on the other side of it is I'm the victim in this case here. How can you expect the victim to be the one that has to come up with a solution? Right?

So we have both of these things happening simultaneously. Like they're both very valid, like positions to have and dependent, like dependent on the group, dependent on the person, dependent on the time of day or dependent on the situation. And yes, it is situation specific. Um, like there's different— like, it's like, how do I handle it if both— if I'm not supposed to do something and I'm supposed to do something, what am I supposed to do? All right, so yeah, I love your thoughts on that. I have a lot of— I have a lot of these things.

[22:16] Paul: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so interesting, right? I think— I'm sure you've experienced this as an entrepreneur— is it's basically constant experimentation with bad ideas until you figure out which ones you should abandon and then evolve them to slightly better ideas. But in the corporate world, it's very— and I think a lot of businesses, rightly so, are very risk-averse, right? And culturally, the conversations are risk-averse as well, which means there's enormous cost to saying the wrong thing. Except saying the wrong thing in the short term may be the only place to get to a slightly better place. And it's, uh, it's— but it's such a subtle balance, right?

It's, uh, it's so hard to manage that in a lot of modern organizations.

[23:09] Nemo Ashong: So can we play with that for a bit there, Paul? Because I'm not sure if I truly believe it.

[23:12] Paul: Yeah, no, challenge me.

[23:14] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, you said that— you said that there's, there's such a cost to saying the wrong thing, and I, I think that there can be I think that right now there is perceived cost, maybe. Yeah, there is an actual cost. But I think where I want to come from it is like, does it need to be? Like, does it need to be as a fact? Is this a universal principle of life that you need, that there needs to be a cost for, you know, speaking your truth or having a difficult conversation? You know, and I think that's like, it's one of the things that that I want to put out there, especially for all the listeners out here and for us in this conversation around like, what are the quote unquote facts?

What are the hard lines that we see around how life in corporate world is supposed to be that really have been manufactured or that we ourselves just in the statement of this are perpetuated? Right. And so I want to catch that language there because it's like, It felt to imply that like it's going to be hard no matter what. It doesn't need to be. Yeah, it doesn't need to be.

[24:20] Paul: That's such a good challenge. I wonder if it's, uh, it's almost something deeper around— there's such a fear of being uncomfortable in the corporate world, and it could be more to do with that than— yeah, I like that challenge because I don't think cost is the right language. 'Cause when you frame things in cost, you turn it into an analytical thing, right? And then we start quantifying, we start turning people into numbers, we start looking at diversity metrics only and stop having those conversations. So I like the challenge around the language.

[24:59] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, yeah. You're onto something though. You're onto something really real. And I think, I think part of this is, this is where I talk about being empowered. This is where I talk about being empowered and really, and like I asked the question, like, are you serious around it or not? And this is where I talk also about the energy, right?

Because in a lot of different places, like someone has to speak up around it. If there's like, someone has to speak up to it. And I'll talk about this in the corporate sense. I'll talk about it first from like, purely like the social part around like identity and such first, but then I'll talk about it from like actually dollars and cents and the cost to the organization of not doing this, right? So what I find is that a certain few people end up taking on like the banner of like having to like represent others, right? I have a colleague of mine and a friend, he's a friend before a colleague, that we were talking and he's like, look, I'm out there.

There's only 10 people that are, 10 Black people in our entire organization. And there's all these subtle things that keep happening, you know, where I am the one that has to like go out and like put my foot down. Right. And what's happening is that because he's standing up for some of the things that he's seen taking place within his organization. And it's an organization that people around the world know. Because he's standing up for that within his group, he's being labeled in a way that's like, hey, there's some career-limiting moves that you're doing.

You're taking such extreme, like, it feels like you're taking very extreme measures to be able to get your point across. And these are conversations that we are engaging in, but it's like, what the alternative right now, like, A, there's not a lot of space to like learn how do you navigate standing for what you believe without having to go so far that it's like, okay, now you can hear me, right? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Do I have to scream for you to hear me?

Okay, if the only way you can hear me is if I'm screaming, then I'll do it. And so I think there's this element of some people are playing the game. It feels like for me, my thing is what if all of us played it? What if all of us saw it and said, you know what, this isn't right and I'm not going to stand for it right now. Or let me at least— this isn't right, can I at least call out that this is not, this is not working? All right.

Um, so I bring that out from like the social side of things. Any thoughts on that?

[27:37] Paul: Yeah, I mean, not to mention, just hearing you describe that, it sounds like this person has two full-time jobs.

[27:44] Nemo Ashong: Yeah.

[27:45] Paul: And that's just a lot in itself.

[27:49] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, and it's like, it's like defender of defender of like your job and then also defend and also it's a lot.

[27:57] Paul: Maybe he wants to live his life outside of work too.

[28:00] Nemo Ashong: Exactly. No, actually, I, I texted him right before, before we got on here because I was like, hey, we need to talk because I like, there's a lot of things I find out. He's like, I'm still in the office. Yeah, it was 11, it was 11 PM Eastern Standard Time. He was still there. Um, So I say that from like one side of things here, which is like, okay, there are people that are out there within the work context that are pushing for things.

And look, I don't want to talk about it from the standpoint of like all corporations are awful or anything like that. It's not that, right? It's just the subtlety that's involved of like knowing of the amount of work it takes just to like make it safe, just to make it feel safe, right? And from an organizational standpoint there, What we're missing then, what we're missing from like the corporate dollar and cents portion there is the ability for someone to bring, to really feel that they can bring all of their experiences to the table. The ability for someone to really feel that they can present a new way of going about it because in their community and their experiences and the things that they've done, they've seen it work out differently.

We lose out on the ability of leaders, emerging leaders and existing leaders being able to challenge the, challenge the status quo, challenge something in a meeting that really should be challenged. You know, or at least explored. It doesn't need to come off confrontationally. But it's that idea of, are we creating a generation of leaders and a generation of people who will be able to really engage in dialogue and feel confident enough in themselves to respectfully invite other ways, other perspectives, other methods into the pool of knowledge to bring in other ways of looking at a situation? And are we creating space for them or do they need to go out and create it for themselves? Right now, it's like you kind of have to create it for yourself.

And I think a lot of people can probably think of like that person in the office that like always seems to be standing for it or that person in the office who seems to have like no patience or no empathy. And then they're just like, you know what, I can't anymore. Right? It's because they have been and they're like, I'm done. It's now your turn. Yeah.

But it feels unsafe. It feels unsafe. And it's like either we make it safe or you learn how to still express yourself and stand for what needs to be said. And this doesn't need to be around like race, gender, sexual orientation. It could just be having the difficult conversation that needs to happen with the team member or with your team or whatever it is to help you move forward. And it's like, we aren't having those difficult conversations.

And it's leading to— and the context in which having a difficult conversation or a meaningful conversation comes up, it's usually at career suicide. Right.

[31:26] Paul: And the crazy thing is nobody there aren't people that don't act like— deep down, people actually want these hard, deep conversations. I used to have these conversations, I was in companies with people and be like, oh my God, it's so refreshing to just talk about these things. And it's like, why isn't this more the norm? Yeah, it's powerful stuff, Nemo.

[31:52] Nemo Ashong: Can I speak to something around that real quick here?

[31:54] Paul: Yeah.

[31:55] Nemo Ashong: Just so that people can take something concrete from this and say, look, if this is what you are feeling or if you would like to have some more of these conversations, like, I'll just offer something based on my own experience that can help you create that space.

[32:10] Paul: Yeah, definitely.

[32:11] Nemo Ashong: Okay. So for me, what I found is like the number one— there are two things. So the first thing is just Making this, making a decision to be that kind of person and being that person. Now, there's no one, no one else is going to give you permission to do it. No one else is going to like— everyone else is waiting around to see. And this is the difference between being a leader and being a follower right here.

Right. And so it's so it's up to you first and foremost, and giving yourself that permission. I can't give you the approval. Like Paul, like there's nothing that we can do. No one can say, hey, you like, it's up to you to decide that, hey, actually I'm going to start playing this game. And the game is open to anyone, so feel free.

We'd love to have you. We're playing, we're having fun out here.

[33:02] Paul: Nemo's looking for more players.

[33:04] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, well, that, that's, that's what lights me up. I, that's my entire business. That's my entire life, to get people to play the game because I'm tired. I'm like, I'm, I'm pitching and I'm hitting and I'm running the bases and I'm catching, going out to the outfield. I'm like, yo, yeah, you're on my team. You're the one that's going out to drinks with me afterwards.

What are you playing? Step up your game. Let's go. So the second thing here, I'll give them another thing that's really tangible. And the other thing there is agreements. So that has been one of the most powerful things for me.

Being able to set agreements with people. So Paul, I'll start talking to people and I'll realize that the conversation went from just being a regular conversation to either the opportunity for depth or the borderline of something difficult. And what I have been leaning into is a practice of this year. It's not that it's easy. I've let you know, disclaimer, it's not going to be easy. It gets easier.

Your nervous system will literally kick into fight or flight. Fight, flight, or freeze might happen there.

[34:12] Paul: Yeah, right. Sure.

[34:13] Nemo Ashong: For you or the other person. And you know it because like your heart starts beating, your hands get like sweaty. We have our— we know when we're in those situations because we feel it. And so now what I do is I have a practice of saying something along these lines. Hey, really quickly here, I'd love to respond to that last comment here. But before I do, there's a few things I just need to be able to like really say what I feel needs to be said here.

Is that all right if I like create some space and create some agreements with you? I want to just make sure that that works first. I ask for their permission. Now they get a chance to decide, hey, do I want to— Nemo's saying, I want to take this game, I want to elevate this game, or I want to deepen this game. Am I willing to go there or not? And they get a chance to say yes or no.

This is important. If you're listening here, you have to be open to either one of them. You have to be open. If you're, if you're saying it like, I'm just saying this to— I know you're going to say yes, let me go forward, or even if you say no, I'm still going to say it— it doesn't work. But it's, it's one of those things where give them the opportunity to say, do you want to keep living your life as you have, or do you want to like actually get, get access to information that is not available to you right now? And let them choose.

[35:27] Paul: Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely going to take that from you. Yeah, I, uh It's— I love that because it acknowledges it, kind of gives a pause and says, okay, let's, uh, tackle some deeper stuff, or let's just stay surface level and maybe go deeper another time.

[35:43] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, exactly. And, and you can keep adding different agreements based on what you need. Like, for me, I'll say what I need here is I choose to hide nothing and hold nothing back. Is that okay? Yes or no? I choose to serve rather than please.

Is that okay? That one usually gets people. They're like, oh crap, like, do I want to be pleased? Like, like, I like— and I tell them the last one is, I have a track record of having life-changing conversations, and at this point I refuse to have anything less than that. Are you open to this being a life-changing conversation? And usually those three are enough for me to then go out and say something like, what I'm getting from you is a lot of resistance to this idea and I'm not sure where it's coming from.

Like, in terms of all the merits there, it really seems like a sound idea. I just really want to open up a discussion around like what's actually happening here because all the points that we're talking about don't add up to the reason why you're— why there's so much resistance on this. What do we really need in order to get your buy-in? What do we really need in order for this to like really serve you as either a customer or manager or whatever it is? But I just want to create the space for us to talk about thing that isn't being talked about right now. I don't know what it is, but it feels that we haven't really gotten to the heart of the issue.

So can we just— and it might be just me here, but I'm really feeling it, that there's an opportunity that we're missing.

[37:11] Paul: I love that. I'm going to pause here for people so they can go in the show notes and set up their call with you because I think some people are going to want a conversation with you. I think it'll be awesome.

[37:25] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, please, please do. I will be very open to these, to these conversations. Like, I set aside time and I, and I will serve you. I would like— we, we will really have, we will really have a conversation that will, that will change your life. So please go to the show notes. And can I give them my website?

[37:41] Paul: Yeah, I'll include it of course at the end. But yeah, what's the website?

[37:45] Nemo Ashong: The website is Empjoyment. So it's like employment with more joy in it. Just go to mjoyment.com, click around some of the things. There are opportunities to come and talk to me. There's different ways to experience me. And yeah, I think— and let's help keep this real because there are real things that you're going through.

And notice that even in that example, there was no context of anything that seemed like inclusion, but it's like the ideas themselves, there was people's ideas that didn't seem to be included. It felt like there was something that needed to be penetrated through. And so just being able to create that space there I'd love to have a conversation with anyone around this, and I'd love to invite anyone to practice, practice what agreements mean for them and how that actually could work for them. Awesome.

[38:31] Paul: So were there conversations or moments in your corporate career that said, okay, there's a path for me probably beyond the corporate world?

[38:44] Nemo Ashong: Um, can you elaborate on that? I want to make sure I'm getting to the heart of the question.

[38:48] Paul: Yeah, so you worked in the corporate world, right? You worked as an actuary, you worked as a consultant, you worked in tech. And did you ever picture yourself carving the path you're carving now, or did it kind of evolve over a series of steps?

[39:11] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, so for me it was definitely an evolution. I've been doing entrepreneurial work since 2013. I remember my roommate in New York came into the room and said, hey, we've been building an app to connect people to share rides together. And he's like, now I want you to go ahead and be the marketing person. And I went around and I got different companies and different organizations to put our logo up on their website. And it's like, hey, share a cab here.

And it was just really, really cool to be like, Wait a minute, before I called, they just had a website, and then I called them and now they have like my logo up there. What? It's amazing. Yes. Um, and then Uber came like 5 months later. It was like, okay, and we're done.

[39:54] Paul: I was, I was waiting for the, uh, and we didn't invent Uber.

[39:58] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, so we did not do that there. Um, so I had, so I had been— but that got my— hit me with the entrepreneurial bug. Um, and I had been building an online business specifically for actuaries to help them with their exams, uh, for a while. And my thing was I'm not— I'm someone who doesn't work on— here goes the step-by-step thing that you need to do. We're in an information age. You know what needs to be done, even if what needs to be done is to go onto Google and type what needs to be done.

Like, it is— that is never the issue. It's never the issue. Right now, especially for the people that I play with, it's a mindset thing. It's a thinking process, ability to see their blind spots. And so when I got When I decided to become a full-time entrepreneur, I was actually going to do one of the same things where it's like, oh, I'm going to create a business and that business is going to be called Empjoyment. It's going to be about empowerment, enjoyment, and employment.

And it's going to help non-technical career changers get jobs at tech companies. Because that was my past. That was my experience. And about a month into it, I went out, started a podcast, did all this stuff around it. It's— there's still great content around it. But I realized, I'm like, wait a minute, I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to help people get into tech.

That's not it for me. I want to help people feel joy in their life. My way of feeling joy in my life was to, to switch and get into this role. The other part about it that was really important to me was that, like, it was a new possibility. I was an actuary for 6 years and taking exams and all that. And then it took me 2 months to get into the exact role that I wanted, doing learning and development within, within a tech company.

You know?

[41:40] Paul: Right.

[41:40] Nemo Ashong: And I realized there's a level of possibility out there that like a lot of people didn't see. What's been coming up, Paul, you and I were joking about this a little bit beforehand, but I'm constantly evolving. I know that right now, the mission that I shared with you about bringing together a truly inclusive and empowered world, that's a large enough mission for most of the things that I'm doing to be encompassed in it. Did I know I was going to be a coach when I started out doing the entrepreneurial path? Yes and no. I knew I was going to be bringing together a community of people.

I knew that I would be getting them to relate and to talk about things that mattered, things that they couldn't talk about in other places. And now I'm actually bringing that back in. I spent the last year just doing one-on-one coaching, and it's been— it's something I'm like, I need to reintroduce something that allows it to be a little bit more inclusive, to have membership, to have a community where people can still come together and get access to get an experience with Nemo and get an experience of themselves. So this thing has continued to evolve. I know it's about experiential learning within this space, and belonging is a thing for me. It's what I believe.

It's like, it's my big thing in the world. And it's no longer coming from a place of, oh, I don't know if I fit in. It's no longer coming from a place of like, I'm a young child and growing up outside of Camden. And I'm like trying to find my place. Now it's from a place of I actually realize that I experience the most growth. I get to experience more of me.

I get to be more of me when I'm in places where I'm not supposed to be. When I talk to people like you, Paul, who challenge me, like, like I get the sense from you, Paul, that when I show up, you're like, yeah, Nima, bring more of that. I want to explore that even more. As opposed to like, hey, you know, we keep it light here on this podcast, you know?

[43:30] Paul: You know, like, hold on, like, I feel like I've tried to keep it light, but I don't, I don't know how to do shorter. I have—

[43:38] Nemo Ashong: I literally had a Facebook post that I go back to talking about agreements, right? Uh, and about things being uncomfortable. I have to, I have to walk my talk, right? That's, that's one of my big things. It's model the world that you want to see, right? So I can't expect anyone else to do it if I'm not doing it myself.

I'm modeling it in everything. And one of the things I had was one time on Facebook I just wrote this. So just allow me to reintroduce myself. My name is Nemo and I don't do small talk. And, you know, I got some laughs, I got some likes. They're like, yeah, definitely, I get that.

And then people came up to me in conversation a couple of months later and they're like— and I would start bringing up stuff like, whoa, Nemo, like, that's way too late, like, way too soon. And I would literally stop and be like, oh, sorry, hold on. You're not on my Facebook. I got you. Allow me to reintroduce myself. My name is Nima and I don't do small talk.

That's it.

[44:29] Paul: Yeah, I think, I mean, we met up in Singapore and you're living in Singapore now. And I think that was what I enjoyed most about meeting you. I think it took us about 3 or 4 minutes to get into it. I actually got feedback on some of my earlier podcasts. They were like, it's great that you're asking the deeper questions, but you can't kick off the first question of like, what matters most to you in life, right? You need to like, you can do it with the right people, but it's easy if you, it's better if you like add like one question to build up to it a little.

Yeah, kind of scaffold. And I've found that effective just in terms of asking questions. It's not like, what matters most to you in life? It's like, tell me a time when you were challenged first, right? And then get to the deeper stuff.

[45:20] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, and it's interesting. It's like the stories are important, right? The story parts are important because it helps keep it real, right? And I'm actually working with someone right now who is one of the most important people on my team because she helps me take all of my energy and distill it in a way that other people can really get, right? So I describe it as like if I'm a fire hose, She helps me take that fire hose and all the pressure, everything that's out there, and turn it into just the most concentrated drop so that when people get it, they're still like, there's a deluge of flavor and emotions and refreshment, you know? But like, I don't have to be any smaller.

And one of the things that she talks about is like, how do you prepare people for that, for the level of depth? So it could be, question number one really could be, like, you know, what matters to you most in life? It just might be that in the email beforehand when they're coming on here, it's like, just so you know, the first question is this, like, be ready. But I think, yeah, I think there is an element of preparation. So, and nowadays I try and make my preparation being like, hey, you know, this is Nemo. Of course I'm going to go here.

Like, You should be prepared.

[46:39] Paul: That's awesome. So I'm feeling there's probably a follow-up conversation here, and I'd love to continue exploring some of these topics with you. I think you, you challenge me as well, and I think we get a lot out of this and looking forward to hearing, like, what people— feedback about this conversation. But if you If you were to like, what's the message you like to leave with people you either have conversations with or you do a lot of videos where you're just talking to people and being your full self? Like what is that drop? Like what is that message that you're trying to convey to people or what's the one thing you might tell someone who's listening to this today?

[47:29] Nemo Ashong: Yeah, thank you for that. What comes to mind and what doesn't leave me is this message: be more you. Be more you. You don't need to be you. There's a lot of pressure on that. I think a lot of people are like, go out, be you, be yourself.

It's like, we still don't know, you know. Like, I don't know who I am, right? The thing here becomes, if anything here, just choose every day to be just a little bit more of yourself in any given moment. So going back to that place where if you felt that there was that discomfort in the conversation or something feels off, be more you and call that out. And in doing so, what I'm finding is that, like, when you choose to be more of yourself, that gives someone else a little bit more permission to be more of themselves. And it's like it continues, it has this virtuous cycle, this continuous wave effect.

It doesn't mean you need to blow yourself out of the water. Don't put yourself in a place where you're like, your fight or flight gets completely triggered. I'm talking about this here because I've been working on this for really my entire life. And in the last year in particular, I've been spent a specific time cultivating my energy, cultivating what does it take before Nemo gets— Nemo gets afraid, you know? And when Nemo gets afraid, what does he do, right?

And but what I would say is just overall, as a general practice, if you can allow yourself to just show just that 1% more of you, or let that 1% more of you make the decision as opposed to what you think you should be doing or what you think the environment calls for, I think you'll notice a significant shift in both your own fulfillment, your personal joy, and the amount of space and leadership that you create for other people just by being yourself.

[49:29] Paul: I love it. Thank you, uh, so much for your openness and, uh, different kind of energy, I think, today. And, uh, it's a pleasure to talk with you.

[49:41] Nemo Ashong: It's a pleasure to be here. I would love to do a part 2. So let's see. Let's see what you all think. You let us know if we should do it. We'll come back on.