Noel Boyland On Building A Career & Life That Matters

[01:00] Paul: Welcome to The Boundless Podcast. I'm Paul Millerd, and I created this podcast because I'm passionate about making sense of the future of work and having conversations with the innovators, creators, and thought leaders who are carving their path in today's fast-changing world. You can check out the podcast and more on boundlesspod.com. Noel, so I'm excited to talk to you today. I think you're somebody I've looked up to for a lot of wisdom, and you've worn many hats in your career— leader, you're now husband, father, and have also been a leader in the health and wellness space and also pretty involved in the conscious capitalism space. So, welcome to the podcast.

I'd love to start with just turning it over to you. I did a brief intro of you, but how would you introduce yourself?

[02:02] Noel Boyland: Okay. Well, thank you, Paul, and I'm flattered and honored to be on the podcast. I will say that I always get concerned when people say they think you have wisdom. I wonder if that's code for saying that they think you're old. But if wisdom comes with age, I'll take it. Yeah, I would describe my background as eclectic.

I had spent the first 20 years of my career for the most part at a human capital management consulting company, consulting mostly to large corporations on their human capital management programs, but did a smattering of consulting to nonprofit organizations and actually Taft-Hartley Union Trust, which was quite interesting. I think one way I'd characterize where I came from was based on a little television, 8 episodes of a snippet about the '80s. And I came of professional age within the '80s. And one of those snippets was on Greed and Wall Street. And it occurred to me the environment in which I graduated from college and came of age, it was very much during some of the exuberance of the '80s. And certainly, in retrospect, looking back and seeing some behaviors that I'm not awfully proud of my cohort.

But in any case, that's when I kind of came of age, and I think that had a formative and a real experience on me. I spent 20 years, as I said, in large company human capital management consulting. For the most part, I found it quite enjoyable and learned a lot, and fortunately worked for a firm that was very caring and ethical. So despite the times we grew up in, I think I was at a great at a great firm. But as, as, uh, as those 20 years were, were nearing a finish, I, I didn't feel like I was growing, um, much as a professional. Um, I had a, I had a health issue, and I kind of had a midlife crisis, as some would call it, at the age of 41, and kind of wanted to re-examine, um, where I might, uh, go with my life.

Um, I then kind of went rogue, as some might say. I worked with a buddy and ran an outdoor adventure guiding business, certainly not for the commercial benefits that that would offer, but it was fun to be outside and sharing my love of the outdoors with others. As, as a few years of that kind of elapsed and my daughters became teenagers and college was looming, it kind of became clear that I would have to go back and make a real contribution to the world. And I looked to marry my love of the outdoors and of health and well-being with consulting. So I started up an organization, a small consulting practice to help companies improve improve health and well-being among their employees.

And not long into that effort, it became clear that, you know, to be effective and for an organization to be effective in helping employees with employee health and well-being is they had to really approach this from an organizational culture, an organizational behavior perspective. So that brought me into, or back into, because my consulting was there also, back into the organizational culture, organizational behavior space. I, after spending some time consulting with organizations on employee health and well-being, I worked with an organization that focused on ethical conduct and how culture affects ethical behavior. So I spent about a year and a half with that organization in that world. And a couple months ago, went back off on my own and I'm working on couple of different and interesting projects that kind of meld a lot of, uh, a lot of what I've done in the past.

So that was probably not the Reader's Digest short answer version, but that's kind of the background.

[06:59] Paul: Oh, that's great. And welcome back to the freelance world. So looking back, uh, early in your career, in many ways you followed the default path. But I'd love to hear if there was— did you have a different perspective on things? Did you kind of know you were going to do something different down the, down the road, or was it really that health challenge that spurred it for you?

[07:25] Noel Boyland: You know, that's a, that's a great question. You know, what was it? And I think, you know, we're all kind of want to create a narrative, um, that is both simple and maybe flattering in a way that drives us towards It always makes more sense looking back. That's right, that's right. It's right when you have the, the luxury of ignoring certain circumstances and focusing on other circumstances. I think there were kind of a few things that, that really drove— that really drove, drove it.

I would say the, the first, um, the first was, is even, even from the beginning, I was kind of very mindful that, um, I didn't want to get on the treadmill of, of work and look up when I'm 60 years old and, and kind of realize that all this time had elapsed and, and I wasn't all that, um, sure that I, I kind of pursued the things I wanted to pursue. So I think from the beginning I had that. And, and interestingly, I think it had some— it had some effect on an otherwise fast-rising career within the consulting firm that I was at, is when I would bring those issues up, um, yeah, I was kind of— people looked at me funny, you know, in a hard-charging consulting world. I don't think that they want to be reminded that they're on this, uh, this treadmill. So I think I had that from the beginning, you know. The other, I guess, big influences were, uh, 9/11, um, you know.

Fortunately, um, for me personally, I wasn't downtown. I was working Midtown at the time, uh, but my children were 5 and 6 years old And I was at that point in my life, I was probably working as hard as I ever worked. And that was kind of a real bunch of cold water in my face saying that, you know, you can, you know, you don't know when the, you know, the clock's up and you better make sure that, you know, you're doing, of course you're doing things to pave the way for the future, but you also have to make sure that, that every day is a good day. So that was an item. My old consulting firm had bought another consulting firm, and that merger didn't go too well. And I was very much in favor of the merger, but that kind of unraveling of that merger was tough for me personally because I saw a lot of growth coming from that.

Nicely, our firm offered a sabbatical program. So, I took a 12-month sabbatical, a 12-week sabbatical in 2005. And that was another opportunity to kind of pause and reflect. And I think that kind of really iced that something would need to change. And then I had a health issue in 2007, which, you know, knock wood, obviously turned out well. But that really kind of was the final kick in the butt.

So it's kind of a series of things. All of them look unfortunate in the short term, but I think there's a lot of positive that came out of those.

[10:46] Paul: Right. So it sounds like the '80s going into the working world, you kind of had this outsider perspective of what is everyone doing? Why is everyone so worried about making so much money? And then that kind of really bubbled up around 9/11, and, uh, you started reflecting deeper on maybe there's a different path or a different second chapter in my career.

[11:09] Noel Boyland: Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, right, and they, they don't happen all at once, those realizations, but they kind of, you know, fester in your mind and, and, you know, and grow in, in my mind anyway.

[11:20] Paul: Definitely. Yeah. Do you have any specific self-reflection you do? Do you go through anything formal, or is it just kind of stepping back and getting distance?

[11:32] Noel Boyland: Yeah, that's good. Another good question. For me, I exercise a lot, and I do a lot of solitary exercise. So I do trail running in the woods and hiking and mountain biking and road biking. So, so that's kind of my meditations, often are out in the green space. With the heart thumping and with kind of forced distance from all your electronics.

So I would say those are probably the points of best personal reflection for me. Also, fortunately, I have kind of friends and acquaintances like yourself who are kind of half a step removed from my day-to-day life. Real thoughtful people. And yeah, I get so much out of those relationships and they really add to my self-reflection as well.

[12:30] Paul: Well, thank you. Yeah, how do you think about building community as a freelancer? Has that changed since you've left the corporate world?

[12:42] Noel Boyland: In terms of building community as it affects me or just in general?

[12:47] Paul: Or even— I mean, when you're, when you're working in a big company, right, you have a lot of people who are just in your circle that you spend time with every day. And when you go out on your own, you kind of need to cultivate that a little more. Has becoming a freelancer changed that for you? Have you, or have you always been someone that's kind of developed those relationships?

[13:07] Noel Boyland: Yeah. Good. Another good question. Yeah, I, I would, um, Yeah. I mean, you know this and I'm sure most people who listen know this is if you're in the professional world and you're working, you're working pretty hard and your circle is of people that are fairly like you and orientation is fairly similar. So there's this effort you have to make to break out of there.

Now, That probably has been one of the best benefits of being so enthusiastic about cycling is that the mountain biking and road biking world is made up of a much more eclectic group of individuals. So that kind of forces you to kind of think about things from others' perspective. So, that had been beneficial. Also, a big reason why I got involved with Conscious Capitalism, I'm co-chair of the New York City chapter, is also for that reason is how do I embed myself in different groups of people, some that might think of the world in very similar ways for me. I don't know. I hope that they don't in a lot of ways because I think that's really important for personal growth and for making our world a better place.

So yeah, so I, you know, as a freelancer, I think it's real important to kind of find communities of people that might have some characteristics like you, but also that have some characteristics that are not like you. You know, I think that's again real important for personal growth and for helping our world.

[15:08] Paul: Fantastic. So, I'd love to hear more about the conscious capitalism work. So, you've been doing that for a while. Where do we stand right now? Zero to conscious, how is capitalism?

[15:22] Noel Boyland: Well, among you and I and listeners to this podcast, I'd say we're pretty good. I don't— Are we getting better? Is it—

[15:33] Paul: Is it getting worse? Is it getting better?

[15:37] Noel Boyland: Yeah, I think, I think it's definitely getting better. You know, if, if we were to be having this conversation 10 or 15 years ago, we were, you know, to be talking about organizational culture, there would probably be a lot of people who would not really know what the heck we're talking about. So of course today most people hear organizational culture, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Now everyone, I think, A lot of people think about it very differently, which is good and not good. But it's in the vernacular. So, I think people are thinking about it.

I think capitalism in general, put aside for a second conscious capitalism, leave it into it is it's taken a hit on the chin since 2008, I think, and understandably and rightly so. The data I've seen and certainly the experiences I've had suggest that the younger generation of folks are not as enthusiastic about unfettered capitalism as perhaps I was in the 1980s. So I think that there is a kind of a growing— I don't know if distrust is the right word, but You know, and I don't think— I think cynicism is a little strong, but I think there's a real willingness to kind of reflect upon the fact that while most would agree that capitalism has done a darn good job as an institution of helping pull ourselves out of a life of scarcity, that it's created this other life that while it isn't one of scarcity for most people, it is one of scarcity for some people and they're being left behind.

It is one that has, you know, created some real strains on the environment and the climate. Um, it is one that has created some, you know, societal strains. Um, so I think, I think it's, it's, uh, people are, are looking harder at capitalism now. And, um, you know, not necessarily throwing it under the bus, but, you know, um, what's working, what's not working, and kind of how can we reformulate our approaches so that things work better for everybody, not just for those who've kind of made it to the top of the capitalism mountain.

[18:11] Paul: Right. And what are some of the good examples you've seen of companies that are really thriving doing things in a different way?

[18:23] Noel Boyland: Yeah, I think the ones that stand out most in my mind are organizations that have done a good job of including their employees and caring for them as kind of part of a family, that employees are not just tools or instruments towards creating profits for shareholders, but that the purpose of the organization, is also to create, is an institution to create good for others, for other stakeholders. So organizations like, I think The Container Store always kind of stands, stands out there where that's, that's a home for, many people to work on a retail floor. To do work that they feel proud of and passionate about and to be paid a wage that probably many of us would say, yeah, yeah, that's fair. So they don't feel like they're kind of being used as tools.

So I think that's kind of one organization and there are many others out there that treat employees that way, but sadly, There are probably more that don't. So I think that's, that's an example, at least from the kind of employee stakeholder perspective.

[19:52] Paul: Yeah, I definitely have seen it too. I think that it's an exciting time. There's companies like Managed by Q starting up in New York that are really trying to take a different approach. And I think the more and more examples we see, we kind of see, okay, maybe there is a different script that's possible for organizations.

[20:09] Noel Boyland: So Definitely. Yeah, I would say another thing that I think is kind of particularly noteworthy on that was, um, I think it's Lawrence Fink, who's the, the CEO of BlackRock. Um, I read in the newspaper this morning that he kind of came out on record that they're now going to be evaluating, uh, companies in their portfolio, um, not just based on profitability from purposes of shareholders, but how they're contributing to society. And that's heartening. Now, I hope that's more than just words. But in an age where many of our historic institutions have eroded over time, religion obviously being one, there's not many institutions that individuals place faith in.

And I don't mean that in terms of religious faith. I mean, in terms of goodwill faith. And the institution of business, which I think has been steady in the Gallup polling, and big business has been— trust in big business and that institution has been in the 20% range, I think between 20% and 25%. Faith in small businesses, I believe is in the 70s percentage range, but it would be really nice for people to feel trust and faith and confidence in business as a stabilizing social institution that helps us achieve some of our dreams in this world and doesn't unnecessarily get in the way of achieving those dreams for other people.

[22:07] Paul: Right. Yeah. I, I think I actually saw some data from Edelman. They do a trust survey and I think people are looking more towards business than I think compared to academia or government institutions. God knows they're doing better than Congress.

[22:27] Noel Boyland: So the bar is, the bar is low there, but definitely some big opportunity.

[22:34] Paul: Um, if you could shift one thing organizations are doing today, uh, just be— I know you go pretty deep into the research and science and, uh, there's still a big gap of what companies are doing and like what the science tells them what to do. Um, but from your standpoint, what would you have every organization do? Like what is the wake-up call, uh, they need?

[22:57] Noel Boyland: Hmm. Um, Yeah, I've been kind of thinking about this. I would say everything from a board level down to an executive management level to middle management level to an employee level, there should be a periodic kind of reflection and self-scorekeeping that happens. So periodic, you know, I don't know, a couple times a year for argument's sake. And so what would that what would that reflection and self-scorekeeping look like? And I'll kind of bring back conscious capitalism here.

Conscious capitalism, one of its tenets is stakeholder theory, which is developed by Ed Freeman at the Darden School at University of Virginia. And this is back in the mid-1980s. And stakeholder theory is kind of a bit of a rebellion to shareholder primacy theory. Of which Milton Friedman was kind of the force behind. And shareholder primacy theory says that, said, hey, it's about the shareholders. Do whatever you have to do to maximize returns to the shareholders.

And stakeholder theories suggest that if you focus on as many wins as you can for the various stakeholders, those being employees, customers, society, suppliers, and the environment, as well as some others like the media. If you focus on as many win-win-wins as you can for those, then in fact we'll have a better world and shareholders will do just fine. So this reflection, I would say, is that all of those different levels within an organization is that they should take out get away from the day-to-day business and say, how are we helping customers' lives be better? How are we— and what are we doing well and what aren't we doing well? How are we making our employees' lives better? What are we doing well?

What are we not? How are we doing it with suppliers? How are we doing with the environment? How are we doing within our communities and society at large? And I think that that reflection, which again is probably in tune with what Lawrence Fink of BlackRock said, I think is helpful self-reflection. And I think there are things that all of us could do that are not that heavy a lift that would make the world better through that type of self-reflection.

[Speaker:TREY_LOCKERBIE] Right.

[25:39] Paul: Yeah. I mean, it's such a challenging issue. I've dug deep into the shareholder primacy view and it was shocking to me to find out that it actually didn't emerge until the 1970s. And before that, shareholder primacy was seen as kind of an absurd idea. So it's still relatively recent. So we're still early in this game.

So hopefully there's opportunity to change. But it's hard to conceptually shift people from something that seems so obvious and simple. I mean, it makes common sense, right, that you would maximize shareholder value. It sounds good. But in reality, you can actually get better outcomes by prioritizing all the stakeholders first.

[26:25] Noel Boyland: Right.

[26:25] Paul: Yeah.

[26:26] Noel Boyland: I think, and I, you know, and I wonder, I mean, you, you took a, what few people do is kind of this academic, um, real long view of, of, of, uh, of this. Um, you know, as an example, you know, I grew up in the '80s and wasn't oriented towards this. So, you know, all I kind of knew was this shareholder primacy world. And I think a lot of people did also. So even though the tradition is, you know, in some ways not that old, it's so deeply embedded within so many people that, yeah, it is a tough shift. And it'd be interesting, I'd be interested in having, you know, at some point this discussion with you, but, you know, was shareholder primacy, was it really kind of just a way of kind of trying to simplify an otherwise more complex thing like stakeholder theory.

[27:21] Paul: Well, that's what I think it was. I wrote about this in one of the articles I wrote over the summer, but digging into it, it was— I think the academic's name was Jensen, and I can link to it. But the argument was that it would be a better outcome, right? I think the challenge was it was a really sticky idea in terms of people kind of latched onto it. I don't think there was any nefarious, we're going to get rich off of this. And then when you linked up shareholder value with some of the ways they shifted executive and equity compensation, everything kind of exploded.

But it was actually pretty interesting. I read the small book called The Shareholder Value Myth. And it goes back into the legal history of it as well. There was a legal case where the owner of the Cubs wanted to— I think they were trying to get him to play night games, and he said he didn't want to. And somebody sued him and said that it would make more money for the minority shareholders. And I think the courts ruled that they actually didn't have to do that.

And it was the first ruling that said you don't actually have to maximize shareholder value. And it's still the legal standard. You don't actually have to maximize shareholder value legally unless you are selling a company. So in that case, you actually have to maximize the price. So it's a pretty fascinating industry history. And I've been asking people if they think it's a legal obligation to maximize shareholder value, and most people do think yes.

[29:03] Noel Boyland: Yeah, yeah, the meme is so deeply embedded in our minds that, right, despite kind of a more kind of complex and nuanced view of the, you know, it does have such momentum behind it, but maybe through our good work we can help to balance that.

[29:28] Paul: One step at a time.

[29:29] Noel Boyland: That's right.

[29:31] Paul: So I'd love to shift to just some quick questions and start with the first one. If you, if you were giving advice to somebody starting their career right now, what kind of advice would you give them?

[29:47] Noel Boyland: Uh, I, I would say that there's probably a few things. Um, I would say for most of us, um, the richness of our relationships is what will not just drive long-term kind of personal satisfaction in life, um, but it also, um, will open up many opportunities for you to pursue commercial things that are most interesting to you. So, um, I know we only have a limited capacity as humans to, to keep, keep relation, to build and keep relationships, but always be open to kind of learning from others and building relationships, and especially with people who are different than you. So I would say that's kind of the first thing is, you know, make sure you spend effort building relationships and with people not like you. I would say The second thing is, is always do what you say you're going to do, become reliable.

I think in the professional world there's this notion that if I'm the smartest person, I'm the most valuable person. In my experience, 98% of what we need to do is, is not all that complicated, but we need to be reliable. So be reliable with people and you'll be trusted. And if you're trusted, it's, you'll feel better about yourself and be able to be more helpful to others. And then I would say the third thing, it's kind of playing off that, is just be clear with your commitments with people. So it is part of kind of do what you say you're gonna do, but just, Be clear.

Say if you have a discussion and someone wants to follow up, say, hey, if I connect with you on Friday on that, does that work for you? Or you can even be loosey-goosey if you feel like it's not exactly a hard deadline. Say, I'll try and connect with you on Friday, but if I can't get to it by then and it's early next week, would that work out? You know, in my experience, that if you conduct yourself that way, then people will look to you for help and will trust you, and you'll feel better about yourself. And of course, there will be some commercial benefit to that as well.

[32:29] Paul: Good stuff. See, you do have some wisdom.

[32:33] Noel Boyland: It's unsexy, but it's, uh, yeah, I think it is helpful.

[32:38] Paul: And for somebody that's thinking about taking the leap much like you took the leap into the freelance world or doing something a little more entrepreneurial, what would you tell them to think about?

[32:50] Noel Boyland: Good. I would say maybe this actually is a fourth item from the prior one and I think it plays into the freelance world is live beneath your means as much as you can. The money that you make is certainly valuable because it puts some food in your belly and a roof over your head. But beyond that, the real value of the money you make is it gives you flexibility to pursue the things that you really love to pursue. So, one, while you're— if you feel like you're making more than you really need, save it. So that you can be a freelancer, right?

And, uh, you know, you, you can pursue those things. Um, you know, I think is— I think if you do that, then you have a chance as a freelancer of kind of making it. Um, it's really, really tough if you don't have, I think, some financial, uh, wiggle room, uh, to move. So, um, I don't think I really answered that question. I think I added a fourth one to the prior question. You know, as a freelancer, yeah, I mean, as a freelancer, I would practice those same four things that I suggested there.

You know, build your networks, have humility, follow through on your commitments, don't be afraid to make commitments, and live beneath your means. Boy, am I sounding old?

[34:25] Paul: I like it. I mean, I think that's good advice for anyone. And then final question, what are one or two books or— I know you're a big reader. What are one or two books or other reading that you would say everyone should read to understand how organizations operate, how people thrive, how people are motivated, anything like that?

[34:50] Noel Boyland: That's— narrowing that down is hard. There's a lot of good ones. I would I would say for me, probably the book that might have had the most— I'll name kind of two books. The one that I think might have had the most turning point for me is that I'm not sure how much of it is the book versus where you are in life when you read the book. But it's The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. And so the subtitle is The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Religion and Politics.

And so John is a great psychologist, moral psychologist, philosopher. He weaves in a lot of philosophy, behavioral science. How do we come to the decisions we make? And in this particular book, why can't we move off of the decisions we make? Why do we get so entrenched? In our camps.

And I think it was, you know, in a world where there's more and more polarization and there's kind of a number of kind of technological and technological factors that I think are driving that polarization, I think it's real helpful to understand what those moving pieces are, how they've led us to where we are. And I think it kind of leaves us with a real sense of humility in terms of how we look at things, whether it's business or politics or religion or what have you. So that, to me, was a very important book. The other one is a little bit probably more micro-oriented but also kind of very helpful. And it's probably also that because of now where I'm spending a lot of my time is Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational. And how our minds are set up to, in many cases, make decisions that are really not in our best long-term interest.

And how do we kind of, how can we cope with that? How can we kind of engineer our environment so that we will do things that are in ours and others' best interest? Evolution has certainly been our friend in many regards, but it hasn't been our friend in terms of, In some instances. I think that's a great book. And all of Dan Ariely's writings I think are extremely illuminating in terms of why do we do what we do even though many of us know we're making bad decisions and what are some techniques we can deploy that would help us out there.

[37:46] Paul: Yeah. I love it. I think for me, those two books have been a big influence on me as well. So, it sounds like we have a lot in common.

[37:54] Noel Boyland: Yeah, you bet.

[37:56] Paul: Uh, well, it was great talking to you today, Noel. Uh, thank you for your time, and, uh, it was fun.

[38:01] Noel Boyland: Okay, yeah, and, uh, you're welcome, and thank you so much, Paul, for, uh, for spending, uh, spending this time with me.