#111 The Art of Self-Management - Claire Emerson on Quiet Achievers, Her Unconventional Path, Finding Digital Mentors & Overcoming Procrastination

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I am talking to Claire Emerson. She is a project consultant and writer, loves helping business owners execute their best ideas. She's the creator of The Flourish newsletter, and recently, I think, the creator Implement, uh, my course, a free 10-day email course on how to apply what you learn without procrastination poisoning your progress. Uh, I love that.

I think almost everyone, uh, deals with procrastination, including me. So excited to talk about that and some of the, the skills you use in terms of like self-management and things like that. Welcome to the podcast, Claire.

[01:49] Claire Emerson: Thank you. It's great to be here. Nice and early.

[01:54] Paul: A question I often start with, and yes, Claire is in Australia. So we're across the world here as well. So a question I like to start with, and maybe we can learn a little bit about Australia, maybe it's similar to the US, maybe not. What were some of the stories or scripts you grew up with related to, okay, these are the things I need to do as an adult, or as I grow up to be seen as a good person, a successful adult?

[02:22] Claire Emerson: Um, I think the first thing is just to like actually hold a job. Um, and we had very sort of— I had a very just typical view of what, um, a successful job is like, you know, like 9 to 5. That's what my mom did. Um, my dad was a bit different. He worked in, um, he was like a carpenter joiner, so he's like a production manager. Slightly earlier, he was the one who went to work early, got home early enough to cook dinner, and my mom was, you know, quite late because she worked in the public service.

But, um, I think that's— that was sort of all I really knew before— well, I mean, definitely before online business, because that was game-changing. But I think I also veered off the path a little bit because I entered into hospitality quite early, and that gives you a really different view of what work is. And I guess anytime you can get any sort of service experience is going to be really valuable. And I think, um, even though I didn't choose the same path as my parents, it was definitely, you know, you work because you have to, not necessarily because you love what you're doing. And that's not to say that they didn't, but there was definitely— I'm not, I'm not 100% sure that, you know, they were absolutely fulfilled from their jobs. But I didn't really think that that was sort of part of it.

And I think certainly not— I never considered writing to be any sort of pathway that I would ever choose or could pursue. You know, like it was— I just didn't understand at that point what or how that could make you money and sort of, you know, live the similar lifestyle that I grew up with and, you know, have kids and a family and like how to how would that even factor in? Like, it would not have even crossed my mind. It was like office job, because that's the sort of stuff that I already knew about. And that was because I always worked sort of office, hospitality simultaneously, because I think I liked that, um, just that difference in my, in my routine. And always sort of having a little bit of, um, hospitality brings a certain flavor to your life, definitely.

Like, it's it's a very different environment. So I think it was, it was really good that I was able to stumble into that pretty early on.

[04:49] Paul: Yeah. What was the specific environment you were doing for hospitality?

[04:54] Claire Emerson: I started in a hotel, so I was actually— I did this, it was called a SNAP apprenticeship, but I would— it was like the first one that our school had ever done. And essentially you get like a day off school and you got to, like, if you got the placement to begin with, um, so basically you got the day of school to go and work for the day, um, and like they gave you credits towards your— I guess you'd call it a diploma or high school certificate or whatever we had there. And, um, yeah, you got to do less subjects, so I loved that. But it was actually the fact that I actually really liked hospitality. You got to meet a bunch of different people, you got to do a bunch of different jobs, um, and I think Early on in hospitality, you're— I, I don't think anyone's all that amazing at their job because it's service and you're sort of just doing it to make money.

But I think the longer you're in it and the older you get, perhaps the more mature you get, it's, um, you can really make it your own. Like, I, I used to love running a busy Saturday night, like the food pass. Oh my God, like, give me that pressure any day. And it's very very flow-inducing. Like, um, you know, you're really in the moment, time passes quickly, and you just do your thing. So it's— it was a really— I think that's probably part of why I liked it so much, because, you know, when you get to exercise your strengths, that's when flow happens.

And a big part of sort of running a restaurant or a busy bar or something like that— critical thinking, good judgment— I mean, it's it's— there's a lot going on and you got a lot of people to please. So I think it was, yeah, a really great environment to hone skills that I didn't really think I would ever get.

[06:41] Paul: Yeah. How did you end up in corporate finance then?

[06:45] Claire Emerson: Corporate finance. So alongside any of my hospitality jobs, I always had what I thought was, you know, the real job, right?

[06:53] Paul: The proper office job.

[06:54] Claire Emerson: The proper job. The office job. Now, for the most part, I only ever worked them part-time. I was just— I've always been against full-time work for some reason. Well, not for some reason, I know why.

[07:07] Paul: But is, um, is part-time work more prevalent in Australia?

[07:12] Claire Emerson: I don't know. I mean, in my life it was because I would always either pick that kind of job or eventually sort of whittle it down into, I can do what you need me to do in part-time hours, you know. I think that was a big a big thing for me later on because that really helped sort of work-life balance or whatever you want to call it. But I got into corporate finance because I just started off with, you know, admin jobs, and then I think from there I was able to get a bit of, um, you know, I'm good with numbers and spreadsheets and technical stuff, and I think that sort of came across along with my written communication. So I was able to get an accounts job, like no qualifications here, like this is not anything I've ever pursued professionally, but um, just applying for, for jobs as I went. And I think it was the accounts.

I used to work for a company called Mac Ones. This was before Apple had stores, so these were like Mac One stores, and that's where they sold Apple products. And I was just like an accounts clerk there and did reconciliations. And I think that sort of led into having the right qualifications for a more well-paying government job, which is again, you know, what I saw as what I supposed to do, because that's— it's kind of— I lived in Canberra, capital of Australia. That's where all the parliament people are, and that's where a lot of government jobs are available. And, um, yeah, it was essentially just— it was just that.

It was just that sort of trail of admins through to accounts up to a finance officer. I was at the same time as a finance officer, I was the travel coordinator, but that ties in a lot with finance in a agency. So it was just a lot of spreadsheets and reconciliations. But, you know, I like parts of that job.

[08:57] Paul: Yeah. When did the cracks in that story or path start to show up?

[09:03] Claire Emerson: I think— I mean, all throughout, I kept trying to study, right? So I was— I tried TAFE at the very beginning. I went back to sort of like a, a pre-university course thing. Did that, got into uni, did uni for a semester, left uni, you know, attempted again to— yeah, I went back to TAFE. I was doing animal husbandry.

[09:31] Paul: Um, what is TAFE?

[09:33] Claire Emerson: Uh, so like vocational school. Um, yeah, like a, you know, like a trade school. Yeah, there you go. I think that's probably closer to what you guys call it. But, um, yeah, so from like, I was— that was always peppered throughout, you know, that, that stream of office jobs and random hospitality working. But I would say, I think, and I always use it because it's, it's quite obvious, is that it was when I got my dog.

You know, I'd always wanted a dog when I was younger, and I got a dog, and then I was like, I don't want to leave my dog at home, right? So Granted, I wasn't having an amazing time in my job. It paid the bills, it was part-time, I still got to— it was quite flexible. My husband worked hospitality, so we had pretty good hourly overlap. Um, I still worked weekends sometimes on the door and that sort of thing, so it was, it was fun and social, and I still was enjoying that part of life. But there was just a— I think it was just felt like a big hole like, I just, like, creatively there was just a void.

And it was, um, and while the dog thing was the catalyst, it was, that's sort of what made me start to think about, well, you know, what do I want to do? Like, how do you, how do you create a career? Like, I, like, I had no idea what I want to do. I did not want to apply for another job. I didn't want another corporate job. I hated, you know, I didn't want to work in finance.

Like, that was just random that I got into finance. And, um, I think it was right around the time where I was just like, you know, like to go out or to get ready for work, I would, you know, do my makeup and stuff and I would watch all these like YouTubers, like, you know, like just beauty blogs and stuff just to see how you like, you know, I always loved like, um, applying makeup. I grew up as a dancer and we did that a lot. So like I was really drawn to this. I was like, wow, these girls are making like money that way. And I thought that was really cool.

And I think that's really where I started to delve into, like, what is all this with this opportunity here? And so I, um, from there, you know, it was a bunch of Instagram and Google searches, you know, it just sort of, um, it's just started to unravel from there.

[11:44] Paul: But, um, any initial books or people that stood out?

[11:50] Claire Emerson: I would say So I really— I found this, this one online teacher or, you know, like, course person before I sort of knew anything about online courses. Um, and her name was Anna Macko, and she owned this— her brand was Loving Not Working. And she sort of, sort of taught like the whole laptop lifestyle deal, you know, gave you a bunch of business models and that sort of thing. And that really started it. Because I learned so much just, just about, you know, what online business even is, like e-commerce, service, you know, SaaS, whatever, all of that. And it was like just like this light bulb that went off.

I was like, wow, there's so much that you can do. And of course, you know, I struggled implementing and I struggled finding what I actually wanted to do within that. But it was crazy. And the one thing that led me to pretty much everything else from that course is that she mentioned one of Copyblogger's free ebooks at the time, which is called, um, I think it's Headline Hacks or something like that, how to write, how to write magnetic headlines. And that is what turned me to Copyblogger. And honestly, from there it was learning from Brian Clark and Sonia Simone.

And I mean, that was sort of, that really was the start because I've now worked with both of them. I partnered with them on product products, or I have a business with Sonia. And, um, you know, it was— yeah, it was, it was from that little nugget of information from that one first course I did that sort of led me into the world of content marketing and finding mentors who really sort of spoke to me and were doing the things that I thought that I could possibly do eventually if I got over all of my hang-ups. So yeah, it was long, but I got there.

[13:45] Paul: I want to pause, so I definitely want to dive into that. I want to pause first. You mentioned you started 3 businesses and one kind of took off. I'm guessing the one was the writing. What were the others you experimented with?

[14:00] Claire Emerson: The first one was e-commerce, because that when I did that girls course, it was the one that made sense to me, right? I already knew what e-commerce was. I was a shopper, of course, you know, I knew what eBay was. It's just that I had no idea about making a product, about, you know, marketing it, all of that stuff. Like, granted, I did— I loved the making process, right? Like, so actually, like, doing all of that operational work is stuff that I love.

But I was so shy about the marketing, self-promotion. I mean, that stuff still gets me. Selling stuff was my issue. And I think it just wasn't something that that first e-commerce you know, sort of, it was where I probably got into like the most sort of, I mean, I call it, I call it my student debt now, but it was, you know, where I sort of spent money where I probably shouldn't have and made a whole bunch of mistakes. But I really was like hardcore learning at that point. And I still had my job for the first sort of 6 months to a year.

And then I sort of did a you know, screw this, and wrote 4 hours a week and left the building, probably prematurely. But it was, um, yeah, I think so. That was, yeah, that was the first one. The second one, it, it was, um, it was okay. Like, it, it, I, and I never created a product or anything like that, but it did get me, um, you know, my first sort of clients as like a VA project manager type type deal. Whereas— and it did also lead to then working, um, yeah, with Brian Clark for— which is Unemployable— and further brands.

Um, so that was, that was great. Um, but again, it took me a while to actually feel comfortable writing, feel good enough to put work out there, um, to implement the things that I learned. Hence my course, which, you know, you figure it out, but, um, it it took a long, um, it felt like it took a really long time to sort of get to a point where I, I knew what I wanted to do and which audience, you know, I really sort of enjoyed serving. But, um, yeah, I mean, I don't regret the first two sort of tries. Yeah, I mean, you learned that I could have done with less, you know, spending. Yeah, I still love e-commerce, don't get me wrong.

Like, I, I know I can figure that out eventually. But yeah, a little bit more time and resources I think is required for e-commerce rather than like, say, service. Like straight up, I think I should have gone that path first.

[16:47] Paul: What, what impact did Tim Ferriss's book have on you? It sounded like it was pretty powerful.

[16:53] Claire Emerson: You mentioned it earlier, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm a big Tim Ferriss fan and I'm sure there's many of us, but I think it was the idea that— I think it just, it really grabbed me because I, as I said, I'd always tried to work part-time, and I think just that idea that you didn't have to slog it out, you could create your own sort of lifestyle. And whether or not that's a huge income or not is, is, you know, obviously up to you. Your personal standards and how much security you need there. But it's— I think I just, I loved, um, I loved the idea that you could control, or at least have that freedom and flexibility around your work, and it could— you could do creative things that you enjoy doing and still make money. Um, gosh, it's been so long since I've read it that I, I've probably like lost the actual thing that like made me want it.

But I think, you know, what spurred me to leave my job was when he's— I think he's got this little script in there and he like says to go ask your employer whether you can, you know, like change your hours. So I was already working part-time, but I wanted to work a few days at home, which was like unheard of back then. No COVID times, no, no forced, you know, remote working, especially in an agency like a government agency, much more red tape. And so I asked and they were like, no. And, uh, they wanted me to actually, like, straight up, no. Um, but they actually wanted me to come.

We had moved from my hometown Canberra to Sydney by that point, and I took my job because it was a, an agency that sort of had offices everywhere. Even though my team was still in Canberra, I took my role to Sydney and just did it semi-remotely because, you know, the team wasn't there and we would talk, um, just on the phone or whatever. I could do my job pretty easily without everyone around. And so when I was like, can I work some days? And they're like, no, and you're gonna come back to Canberra. I was like, uh, so that was sort of the end of that.

And, um, yeah, I gave my 2 weeks and sort of, yeah, left. Then we got— we went— we got married and went on our honeymoon and then came back and was sort of like, okay, what do I do now? And tried, you know, I got a I got a client or two but still had to work hospitality on the side, which is never a bad thing. It was just, you know, I guess just wanted to— I just wanted to make it. And it was, it was a lot— it was longer than it, than, um, I anticipated, and I'm sure longer than my husband anticipated. But, uh, we got there.

Yeah.

[19:41] Paul: What does make it— what does make it mean, or what did it mean to you then?

[19:48] Claire Emerson: You know, earning a livable income that, that, like, but doing the creative work that I like, you know. And that's, that's really all it was for me, to have the freedom and flexibility to, you know, manage my days how I wanted to, create, you know, create my weeks how I wanted to, um, and be able to do the work that I enjoyed. Which at the time I probably still wasn't 100% on, but I, I knew that it was certainly writing was a part of it. Um, yeah, it was just a matter of getting over the procrastination.

[20:22] Paul: What would you do different now, uh, if you had to approach that initial period?

[20:28] Claire Emerson: I probably wouldn't try e-commerce to begin with, that's for sure.

[20:32] Paul: Do you think— I mean, you said you learned a lot though. I mean, do you think of some of the lessons you learned, or is just you wish you did it different?

[20:41] Claire Emerson: I think I still would have learned a lot even if I didn't do the practical side of the e-commerce stuff. And I, so I, I don't, I didn't mind learning about all the different business models. Like, that was actually like, I loved that, that, that, that initial learning was like what set me off to like, as a reminder that adult learning is fantastic when you're choosing what you're learning, right? Like, and that's what had never worked for me previously. Like, I was just sort of trying to pick a course that the thing that was already offered at university or at TAFE or whatever, and it was never fitting into actually what I wanted to do. But I think I've lost my train of thought.

What was your question?

[21:24] Paul: It's okay. Yeah. I mean, just what would you have done differently?

[21:28] Claire Emerson: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, yeah, I don't regret learning like everything there was to learn about like in that really big course, cuz it was one of those really big courses where they just sort of teach you everything. Right. And because I was drawn to e-commerce, was— I— that's why I did it.

It wasn't because I, I— that was any sort of like big dream of mine. I just, I just wanted to, to figure out how to do it. Whereas I think if I had looked into that service model a bit closer at the time, rather than sort of— so I feel like I skipped over it because I was like, oh, I don't think I can offer a service to someone. But really, that's so much easier than trying to build some, you know, massive e-commerce brand that has to— where you need product and you need, um, you know, customer service, you need shipping, you need all that, all of that, like inventory, everything. Whereas service is just me, you know, helping someone out essentially. So I think that's— if I could redo it, I would still learn it all, but I would choose a different model for my practical element, I think.

[22:34] Paul: Yeah.

[22:34] Claire Emerson: Um, because I think I would have— I, I would have gotten there Perhaps quicker, but you know, it is what it is.

[22:44] Paul: Yeah. When did you first discover, uh, Brian Clark and Sonia Simone? You said Copyblogger had a big impact on you. How did you, like, it seems like you had a really thoughtful approach to basically finding what I've called like digital mentors. Uh, how did you think about that and like how did you end up turning that into a gig?

[23:05] Claire Emerson: So like I said, so I had the, that, that one course gave me that little nugget. So the ebook. And so obviously from there I downloaded the ebook. I was immediately on Copyblogger's email list. Um, loved everything that they wrote. Like I have, I have all of their ebooks printed like in my, one of my drawers, like every single one of them.

I used to, I used to read them at work. Um, don't tell anyone that, but, um, It was from there, I think, you know, I, I probably spent a good 6 months being a quiet little mouse and not saying anything, but then I just started to do the, the, um, I guess it was just like a natural form of networking. Like, I had never really sort of thought about it in any way, but, you know, I replied. Um, you know, I just, you know, I would reply to emails, I took their courses, and I was a student, and I was trying my best to sort of interact, not be as much of a lurker as I had sort of been in the past. Um, I remember joining Twitter very— I think I can't— I don't know how— I think it's like 7 years for me on Twitter now, and Twitter's not big in Australia, so it was— and back then it was like even less noise than like it is now.

So it was just a very easy avenue to sort of talk to, like, you know, reply to Brian's tweets. And, and sort of— sorry, wasn't as active on Twitter, but Brian used to be on there a bit. And I remember I asked, like, I think they, they offered to, you know, who wants to ask a question for the podcast, you know, send it in. So I did that, you know. So my name started getting a little bit of recognition. And I guess I just was trying to, you know, get them to know me.

I remember taking a writing course and they said sort of like one of those first initial steps before you're going to get any sort of, you know, traction is that like 3 people in your sort of niche or your area should know you, like should know your name. Does they need to know you personally, but they should know your name. And I think that's sort of what I took to heart and really tried to do it in a very genuine, non-creepy way. Like, I've never been great at sort of sales and self-promo, but yeah, like, just actually building like actual relationships, not just to get something, was always, um, a lesson that I, I took to heart. And, you know, I, I lived it. Like, that's how I first got my first article with Brian on Further, was I asked him on Twitter if I could send him some idea, like, ideas by email.

So that was sort of like that, that little— I don't know, I guess, um, yeah, a little piece of contact so that when he got my email, it wasn't just, you know, some fan email. It was actually a purpose, and you need to look out for it. Oh, sorry. And that was, um, yeah, that sort of started it. And because I knew because I had spent so much time just being like a consumer of Brian and Sonia's content from Copyblogger. I knew a lot about, I guess, the weaknesses and stuff that they shared about their own journeys and how they work.

So I— when I did eventually ask Brian if he wanted some help, it was because I knew where I would be able to fill some of the gaps that he like I knew what work he didn't enjoy, I knew what he avoided. He's never been strong in sort of systems and ops where, you know, that's where I can come in quite easily and take over. I was always definitely someone you can hand something to and I'll do it. So yeah, I took advantage of that.

[27:01] Paul: Yeah, seems like at this phase of your life you started taking a lot of self-assessment too. Do you have one or two that stands out and, uh, some of the lessons you learned?

[27:14] Claire Emerson: Yeah, so the one— I think the one that was the biggest aha was— it's called the Kolbe-A Index by Kathy Kolbe. And essentially it showed me why I researched so much, why I sort of, and why I would spend so much of my energy doing that and not necessarily implementing how I wanted to, right? So it was like a good and bad thing. I was like, damn it, that's why I procrastinate so much doing this specific thing. But also, how can I lean into that strength so that when I am doing the work that I want, you know, I'm getting into flow states and all that sort of stuff. So that one shed some real light on just how I worked and why I did what I did, and, um, really gave me sort of ammunition to figure out how to defend against those weaknesses, right?

And, um, you know, it gave me, um, I, I, I was pointed to that particular test from one of, from a business coach I had who also introduced me to Kanban, which is the board you can see there. Yeah, which was a game changer for me as well. So just that visual tactile element to figure out what you're doing, rather than writing out a million to-do lists that you never look at again, which is a big thing for me. I can write a to-do list with the best of them, I will never look at it again because it's just either stuck in a document or a book or um, whatever. Whereas the visual aspect of the board and the way that that flows, it just like sung to me. And, um, doing that Colby assessment really showed me, um, why it worked so well.

Um, and just the analysis from that was just— it was eye-opening. And I think that really spurred my love of all things psychometric testing. And the second one I think would be the VIA Strengths Survey. So that's VIA's, um, value— it stands for Values in Action, basically. So, and that's from Martin Seligman, who's the author of Authentic Happiness and Flourish. Um, so he's— he does a lot of work on strengths and positive psychology, and I love his— reading his work, and I love, love, love diving into positive psychology and, you know, what we can do to exercise our strengths.

I mean, find them, discover them first, exercise them, and just literally like weave them into your week so that work is enjoyable. You get into flow every now and then, and, um, just you get to— again, you get to exercise the things you're really good at, and it's It's been, it's been again, another eye-opening test and gave me some really good insight into, you know, who I am, why I am. So yeah, I think for me, self-awareness, self-discovery, those things are just foundational to anything that you want to pursue.

[30:36] Paul: Awesome. What do you think? So many people do these digital Kanban boards, but Uh, they've never worked for me. What— yeah, what do you think is different about doing it just out there on an actual board?

[30:53] Claire Emerson: Well, so I mean, the first thing is, is that as soon as you attach to your phone or a device, you're, you're distracted by something. Whether or not you can remove the distraction and go straight to your digital board or not is, is obviously, sorry, is, um, is going to be, uh, yeah, right? Like, maybe you're really good at it. Some people are, and they wouldn't need the physical, right? They're just great at to-do lists, like, really good at looking at that sort of thing. And good for you.

I'm not that person. And for the most part, I don't think a lot of people who are, who are looking for the perfect to-do app are that person either, because the problem is that they're not doing what they said they wanted to do, and they're just, rather than actually doing the work, they're avoiding it by trying to find a better way to do the work, right?

[31:46] Paul: Yeah.

[31:47] Claire Emerson: For me, Kanban, a physical Kanban, was just like having your tasks like literally screaming at you in your face to get done, things you've already decided on. You know, you're not redeciding, you're not reprioritizing every time you sort of sit down to your desk. It's literally right there. What, what you'd already planned at the start of the week, do it. And the, the better you get at breaking down your tasks, the easier it is to obviously start them and finish them. And with Kanban, you just get better and better at creating tickets.

So like each Post-it is one thing and it, and it's one thing only, you know what? And getting to that point where you know what done looks like for every single task you have. And that comes down to even how you write a ticket and how you, yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, even just the words you're using on your Post-its to signal that, oh, this is what it will look like when it's complete, rather than one of the, I guess, one of the examples I always use is the blog post. So if someone comes to me or they're showing me their board or something and they go and they've got write a blog post on there, on their board, that is literally— it is the worst thing to write, especially if you're a perfectionist, you procrastinate, anything like that.

Like everyone knows how hard it is to write, especially like it depends, like everyone's probably got different sections of writing that are hard, but for me the outline, the draft, like it's the worst. Like, I will— I'm not still to this day, I still want it, but I have a really good system now that helps me move through each stage. So I'll— I can show you how we go. Can you see that? Yeah. Now, so this is a, this is a new blog post ticket for me.

Now, each one of these, probably when I was getting started, used to be on a separate ticket because that is how you needed to look at it, like a single element that you complete, you know, today within 50 minutes, that's what you need. So it's— I call it HODEEP, which is lovely. So that's headline, outline, draft, edit, edit, exfoliate, polish, right? That's the system. I learned that system from, or adapted that system from Pamela Wilson. She used to work as the editor for Copyblogger, and she has her own business now.

I think it's Big Brand System is her brand. But breaking that particular task down was, I would say, probably the most impactful thing I did for my writing. Because regardless of what courses I took, it didn't matter what I learned, it didn't matter what my skill level was, I just, I was not doing it. Like, I just was not implementing. I I was not— I just wasn't writing. But for me, as soon as I get past that draft stage, like, I'm excellent.

Like, I feel excellent. Like, I— it's— I will edit until the cows come home, you know? Like, I can— I'm an editor as a sort of like that, that top-tier strength, whereas the drafting side of things, I definitely live in the land of this is crap, I am crap, you are crap. Yeah, so Breaking that down was huge for me, and Kanban made that just so much easier to do because I could, you know, you pull your ticket into the today column, you pull it into the done column once it's finished, and that momentum just keeps you going. Just the act of pulling tickets across your board, like just that, like that really small thing changes how you work and how how accomplished you feel. And you get this whole column at the end of your week which has everything you've done.

So you're not just deleting things and forgetting you even did them. You're giving yourself credit. You're, you're looking back at how far you've come. You're not always thinking, oh, this is what I still have to do, because you've got both sides visible, right? You, you know what? Yeah, you've got stuff to do, but look what you've done.

You know, I think that's— it's an excellent reminder. So it's, yeah, Kanban for life. I mean, I've been using it for 6 years, so it's, it's a big system. Like, it's a massive system for me.

[36:15] Paul: What, what are some other ways of like reframing procrastination or getting things done? Like, what, what do you think is really driving procrastination for many people?

[36:27] Claire Emerson: The first thing, and it's what I teach in, um, the 10-day the email course I have, my free email course, is that the first thing you really need to see for yourself is that you are procrastinating. It's, it's so easy to think to not like— like I had to actually discover what procrastination actually was. Like I had to figure out that this is why I'm not, not making the progress I want because I'm procrastinating. I'm putting this off. I'm doing all this stuff, other stuff that I feel more comfortable with. Like, you know, like operational side of things.

That's really easy for me. Organizing is really easy. The admin side of things, really easy. But I wasn't marketing. I wasn't selling myself. I wasn't, um, you know, writing so that I could build my reputation and credibility.

And those things were what was going to move the needle, right? But you have to understand, like, for me, it was— it's— I think it's really key to understand why you're procrastinating. And usually the big three are: it's fear, perfectionism, or entitlement. So, you know, fear— you're scared, you just, you're scared to do it, you don't want to fail. Perfectionism, you don't think you'll do it right, so you don't start at all. And entitlement is that you wish you didn't have to do it, or you wish someone else would do it, you know.

And, um, those three things, figuring out sort of which bucket— and you probably take a little bit from each bucket, like everybody sort of has a little bit of it all swirling around, but there's usually a pretty big one um, or, or two. For me, it was really perfectionism is— was a big thing for me, and I've had to overcome that by, you know, breaking these— those big tasks down and making sure that you could actually do it, like start it and then finish it. Um, but certainly understanding why you're procrastinating, and from there figuring out the, the next course of action that I, that I sort of— I send people through is, is to— okay, cool, you know, sort of what problem is. So take a look at yourself.

And so that's where I then lead people into some self-awareness and figuring out the things that they love to do and remembering what they've done in their past that they loved and had success with. And that sort of takes you out of the, oh, I'm really crap because I procrastinate, into, oh, maybe if I did this or, or, or sort of took, um, or did this in this way instead. Like, you can change your approach to, to just suit who you are and how you like to operate, which I think is, is, um, really super beneficial. And then at that point, you're— I think it's, it's easier to build the habits and systems that are going to support you, um, because they need to be tailored to you. You can't just adopt somebody else's system and expect it to work for you because it, it might not. You're not the same person, you don't have the same strengths or weaknesses.

And you really— yeah, I just think those, those two things, understanding why you procrastinate and, and then digging a little deeper into who you are, are really good starting points. And they're really easy starting points, to be honest. Like, it's— everyone wants easy. Those two things are so easy to do. And yes, what comes next is kind of difficult, like the right, you know, building habits, building systems. But you find one or two really great ones and you're, you're really going to set yourself up to be significantly better than you were, you know, 6 months ago, that's 6 weeks ago even.

So yeah.

[40:07] Paul: Cool. What does the quote, fear is not a bad thing, indifference is, mean to you?

[40:14] Claire Emerson: So I love— so that the book I referenced there is Brianna West's 101 Essays That Will Change the Way You Think. And I think, you know, I've always read and found, um, fear and anxiety such an interesting topic, um, because fear has, you know, held me back a lot. And I, you know, I suffer from anxiety, and I think it's, um, so important to have ways to move through fear and to, you know, lift your mood when you know, that sort of mentality is bringing you down. But I also— that, that particular quote, um, or I don't think that was a direct quote, to be honest. So the other— I'll, I'll share with you what she writes in. She says, you think that being uncomfortable and fearful means you shouldn't do something?

Being uncomfortable and fearful means you definitely should. Being angry or indifferent means you definitely shouldn't. So fear shows that you care, and caring enough— I mean, if you've read The Practice by Seth Godin, he talks all about it. Like, if you care enough, then that means that you should be doing it. It will be scary and it will be hard, but you just have to do it anyway. You have to do it scared.

You have to do it even because— even if it's hard, it will be hard. Um, but the fact that you have fear is an excellent sign. Whereas if you didn't care, like you're just indifferent about you know, what you're doing and your job or whatever, that, that is that middle ground, that, that's, that's where it's not, it's not great to live. And so you're better to, you're better to be surrounded by fear than surrounded by indifference, I guess. Like, it's why I, I love that so much. And I've spent, you know, I, I spent a lot of time sort of trying to figure out ways to, you know, again, I've dug deep into positive psychology.

So a lot of the practices from there, you know, journaling, breathwork, meditation, you know, just walking, um, you know, giving your time, giving yourself time and space to think, and, um, all those sort of positive practices that help you, you know, get your mind right, get your emotional state right, get your energy right. They, they help you build intentional confidence, and it's— that's, um, and, and they give you courage. To sort of get to that next level where whatever was stopping you, whatever, whatever fear you had, you can sort of move past it.

[42:48] Paul: Yeah. What do you, what do you care about, uh, most right now in your work?

[42:53] Claire Emerson: I think I, I just want to get to a point where, you know, I can provide for my family. Like, my husband is probably the, the breadwinner still at the moment. Um, I'm still I feel like I'm still bouncing back from post-baby, but it's, it's been a great, you know, sort of 2, 3 years. It's just, um, right now I, I— so I've just started a, a role with a contract role with ZipMessage with Brian Castle, who's— yeah, and, um, that's been fantastic. So I think taking on a little bit more of a leadership role within a bit of a team. Like, for a very long time, I thought that that's not necessarily what I wanted, but I think that was, again, just sort of fear stepping in the way or thinking that I probably couldn't do that or I didn't have the expertise when really, you know, I'm pretty good at what I do.

So I think being a writer, I think, has really— doubling down on writing changed like the trajectory, essentially. Like, that was just that one thing, you know. If you can, if you can be, if you can build your writing skills in whatever way— maybe, maybe you don't write articles or that sort of thing, but written communication in general, right, is going to get you really, really, really, really far.

[44:21] Paul: And I think, um, it's such a powerful thing in today's world.

[44:24] Claire Emerson: It is. And I think So yeah, I guess right now what's important to me is to keep that writing, those writing skills developing. So getting a chance to write and be creative, as well as having that little bit more connection in my work. Previously, I've just had a sort of a bunch of clients and I just do the work. And as a writer, there's not a lot of interaction. I just sort of, I write and give it give it over and it's done.

Whereas now I'm sort of in that phase where I, I want to sort of, you know, talk to Brian and, and have, um, you know, conversations about, about growth and strategy. And so that's been really, um, fun. And I've got— so I do this 3-word exercise from Chris Brogan and Rob Hatch every, every year. So you give yourself 3 words that sort of mold the rest of the year. And so this year's was, were: provide, distribute, and direct. So direct was really, it was, I wanted to take up that sort of leadership role and be more in like managing and directing, which is essentially what this role with Bryan is giving me the opportunity to do.

Distribute was, you know, I need to up my self-promotion and distribute my own work and sort of make that a habit. So I've been on and off with that one. I'd say it's probably— I need some work. And then there's the provide. So that was the other word, and that was really, you know, I want to— whatever it looks like for me in my world— to feel like I'm contributing and, um, yeah, providing for my family. So I think those three things specifically are where I'm at, and they're— yeah, they've been great words, to be honest.

So they sit on my screen. I look at them.

[46:12] Paul: I love that. Where, where can people find out more? Like, what— is there anything you want to share with the audience specifically?

[46:22] Claire Emerson: I would say everyone should take my free 10-day email course. You know, feel free to unsubscribe directly afterwards. But it's those lessons that I share are like, I am so proud of that. I mean, I could call it a product that no one has to pay for, but it is, it is probably my, my, some of my best work. And it was, you know, even if you're interested in sort of the automation behind it, like, you might have a look at that. Like, so I get a lot of comments on that too because I use— I'm a student of Brennan Dunn, and so I use, um, ConvertKit, do some sort of fancy stuff with, um, self-pacing.

And, you know, you can sort of make your way through it by answering writing worksheets, and I love it. Like, I, I look at, I look at the content myself, like, constantly. Um, and yeah, I've had excellent feedback from it. It's, it's, it's, I think it's a really good, um, foundational sort of course to have a look at if you're struggling with procrastination, if you're someone who loves taking a bunch of courses but is struggling with implementation, or you're— you just want a few starting points for systems or new habits or self-awareness, and you need some pointers. Like, it's, it's very— like, there's practical, there's theory, there's— it's— I really like it. I, I'm terrible at self-promotion, but yeah, that is— if you want to see any of my work, go there.

It's at importermycourse.com. But it'll also, it's also on my website.

[47:56] Paul: So yeah, I just spent a lot of time reading your writing. You're, you're a very good writer. I think, uh, you definitely have a lot to offer people, so I'll hype you up.

[48:07] Claire Emerson: Thank you. Yeah. Well, you said Amanda suggested me and so she actually, the, the way I met her, she took my course and she reached out afterwards and she was like, thank you so much. It was great. And I was like, cool. I didn't even know her.

She was not as Twitter famous back then. I can tell you that much. She was still awesome. But I was sort of, I've known her through her big massive growth. So that was really cool. Like, I like to, like, I gotta put her face up there on writing testimonials, I think.

Yeah.

[48:40] Paul: And I think that's the magic of the internet. And if you can just bravely share and keep putting yourself out there, eventually people are gonna wanna support you anyway. Way, right? And then that sort of can take care of that. I don't really like self-promoting either. Um, I like creating.

Um, when it comes to like talking about what I'm creating, I'm like, uh, I'm okay. Let's just like create new stuff.

[49:05] Claire Emerson: Yeah. And I mean, I think the podcast for you is obviously such a great avenue for you to perhaps meet people who are better at promo than you are. Definitely. I think that's always, I've always, um, sort of wanted a podcast for myself to have that, but, um, yeah, one day, one day. I've upgraded my mic now, so maybe I'm on, I'm on track.

[49:26] Paul: Fantastic. Well, this is a lovely, uh, conversation. Uh, I'll let you start your day in Australia. Thanks for, thanks for chatting with me today, Claire.

[49:38] Claire Emerson: Yeah, thank you so much. It was great.