#119 Goosebump-inducing Waves of Knowingness - Jonny Miller on grief, friendship, living abroad, founding a company, remote work, Rolf Potts, David Whyte, poetry, and finding work that matters.

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I'm talking with Jonny Miller. Welcome, Jonny, a really good friend. I've gotten to know her the last 4 years. We are both in long-term leases now after wandering the globe for several years.

So it's exciting. Needed to talk about the feelings behind that, um, our paths, share some notes. I'm pumped to dive more into, uh, your path. I think it's such a cool thing to be able to do an interview like this with somebody you know, a friend. I almost think more people should do this with their friends. But welcome to The Pathless Path podcast, Jonny Miller.

[01:50] Jonny Miller: This is— thank you, Paul. It's It's great to be here. And yeah, it does feel, for me at least, really good to be grounded and in a place I can call home for the first time in a long time.

[02:02] Paul: I thought a good question to start with would be, were you exceptionally curious as a child?

[02:12] Jonny Miller: Good one.

[02:14] Paul: This is the question Jonny asks on his podcast.

[02:17] Jonny Miller: No one's ever asked me that before. Yeah, I do think that I was, and I think to the point where it was almost annoying for my parents and certainly teachers at school. I think I was always probably asking too many questions and trying to kind of like, why are we learning this? What's the point of this? And I really, I spent a lot of time reading and I spent a lot of time looking at the Dorling Kindersley kind of encyclopedias with maps and I loved reading about stories of adventure and National Geographic, dreamt of travel and going on these big kind of adventures when I was young. And I think some of it did kind of die down a bit when I was in high school.

And it's almost been a journey over the last 10 years to try and reclaim that in some ways. Hence the podcast.

[03:13] Paul: Yeah, you, you wrote a poem, or I think you titled a book of poems you published, Remember, Forget, Remember. I could be messing that up slightly, but it was such a powerful frame for me, which is that life is really just a process of remembering things, forgetting them, and then remembering them again. So what does that phrase mean to you?

[03:38] Jonny Miller: I think that my experience has been of whenever something comes through that feels like a kind of a powerful insight, it's usually something that I've heard before, but then just forgotten. Um, and I think that that phrase applies to, um, the cycles that Kelly and I go through in our relationship. It applies to things that I remember. In terms of work. And usually it takes some kind of like pain or challenge or something to be like, oh yeah, this is why this thing was really important to me. And I think that's just the way that we go through life.

And I guess it's almost like a spiral. And I like to think that when we remember again, it's like a little bit more deeply. And And I think I've also been coming to appreciate the forgetting phase as well. It's easy to kind of beat yourself up and like, oh, but I thought I learned this before. But actually there is something about the remembering and the forgetting and then the remembering again, which feels powerful to me.

[04:49] Paul: What happened in high school?

[04:54] Jonny Miller: Oh, quite a lot. So I went to a British private school. It was very strict, I would say. There were lots of rules that I considered to be stupid. We kind of wore ties and blazers and took ourselves a bit too seriously, I think. And it was just, it was a very strict and rigid environment that was, you know, very geared and optimized for getting you into like a fancy university.

Cambridge or Oxford in my case. And yeah, I think I struggled to make friends honestly and to connect and I got good grades, but I wasn't really happy. And I left just not knowing what the hell I wanted to do, but only just with the certainty of I didn't want to go on the path, the default path that a lot of my friends were heading towards to become you know, getting jobs as accountants or lawyers or things like that, I'd met people who were older than me and they didn't seem fulfilled or happy. In fact, many of them just seemed a bit dead on the inside. And I was like, I don't want that. There has to be more to life.

And I think I watched a lot of the Do lectures and kind of found stories of people, I guess, who were on The Pathless Path of sorts and had found a way to make it work. And so I almost kind of clung to these stories and these narratives of like, there must be another path that just isn't clear. And I'm not being presented from the kind of standard job fairs that you go to, where you really have like 4 options. You can be a lawyer, a doctor, an accountant, and that's about it, or a management consultant.

[06:42] Paul: Did you go into college with this mindset? I mean, that must have been pretty difficult.

[06:47] Jonny Miller: I almost didn't go to college or university, as we say. I had the real good fortune of doing what we call a gap year, like a year out after school. And that was probably one of the best years of my life. I spent 11 months traveling around Australia, Southeast Asia, parts of Indonesia. And it really just like opened my lens and world view up to things that I'd thought kind of were possible, but never really believed in some ways. And so it was actually my uncle who kind of convinced me to go and to give it a shot and to say, you know, at least like try it and see how you get on.

And I think I went in with the mindset of like, of knowing what the opportunity cost was of this, like, amazing real-world learning experience that I just come from and went into the first year with this kind of desire to make the most of it, like joining lots of the groups, kind of studying philosophy instead of economics, which I'd applied to. And yeah, I think I was a little bit also weird in that, but I tended to connect with other people who'd taken years out and we'd share our travel stories and things like that.

[08:03] Paul: Yeah. What's the, what were some of those experiences that opened your imagination during that trip?

[08:10] Jonny Miller: I think, well, firstly, I read Rolf Potts' book Vagabonding, and I had that with me. That was kind of my Bible for when I was traveling. And I, I fell in love with travel, with travel writing, and specifically learning to surf, I think was like a real catalyst for me in the sense of I'd never really committed myself to any sport. I was generally good at sports, but I just did it for a while and then gave up and did something else once I reached a plateau. But something about surfing was a way that I could connect with the ocean, connect with nature, and the, the process of going into bigger and bigger waves and kind of building my confidence in that arena, I think, gave me confidence in other areas as well. And it was also an excuse to go to remote islands in Indonesia.

I went to an island called Nias where no travelers would go, but there were these amazing world-class waves there. And so I ended up going to a lot of places that were kind of off the traditional tourist path. And I think that helped to just open me up to different ways of being, different ways of living, seeing and landing in Bangkok for the first time. And I'm sure, as you know, like the first time you go to Southeast Asia, it's like, whoa, it's like there is a very different way that you can orient yourself on this, on this world. And it just questioned a lot of assumptions that I, I think I had.

[09:38] Paul: Yeah. Leaving, leaving the US for me, I didn't do it until I was 30, but I think going to Asia, it is so different enough that it disconnects your default scripts that run in your head and you end up like—

[09:55] Jonny Miller: it's Shadowthems.

[09:56] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. You end up scriptless and you're basically just like wandering around doing stuff, but you're not mapping it to anything, any idea or story of what you're supposed to be doing. And there's really no coming back from that, right?

[10:13] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah, completely. It really I mean, I felt like that year in particular just changed me in so many ways. And I had the travel bug for many years after and kind of continued to seek out interesting places and start a travel magazine at university when I got back. And then ultimately started a travel startup with two equally obsessed travel friends.

[10:41] Paul: And you saw Ralph Patz speak in London. I believe. I think you told me about this and it was a powerful moment for you.

[10:51] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, I interviewed him for Mapsia as well, which was like, it was one of the highlights of my startup career was getting to interview this real hero of mine who I just really appreciated his perspectives and his like deeply thoughtful lens on everything, not just travel. I think for him, like, travel is a lens to explore what it means to live a good life. And yeah, I think his philosophies have stayed with me in many ways.

[11:26] Paul: Yeah. What was it like connecting with somebody like that? That, I mean, I think the internet has been great for this kind of like flattening people and realizing, oh, I'm just like someone like Ralph. He's not like this special person. He's an incredible writer, right? Wrote an incredible book.

but, um, in some sense, like, we're all kind of marching to a similar beat, which just doesn't happen to be the default story.

[11:55] Jonny Miller: Yeah, totally. Um, I, I think in the case of Rolf, I did put him on, on the pedestal to some degree. Um, but it was, it was great to kind of, I guess, very validating that the questions that I asked in this interview, which was about his relationship with Paris, were really well received. And I think that my, in some ways, my reflections allowed him to phrase his experiences in a slightly new way. And that in itself was really powerful. And then later on connecting with a guy called Al Humphreys, who I'd also idolized as a kid.

He's done all these amazing adventures and going on like a micro adventure with him outside of London, and just realizing that he really was an average guy in many ways and actually quite shy and introverted, which kind of surprised me. And we went on to become good friends afterwards. And I think that was a moment where I was like, wow, these people that I've read their books, I've become so inspired by their writing and they're just humans. And yeah, I think that was That was also really powerful for me.

[13:09] Paul: Yeah, it's been a learning experience for me too. I think we met about 4 years ago, I think June 2018 at World Domination Summit. And I remember meeting you and like hearing some of the cliff notes of things you've done. And I was like, oh wow, this, this person has way more than me figured out. He's like worked remotely, he's traveled. I was like just becoming a digital nomad and I had no idea what I was doing.

And I realized after, like, getting to know you as well, it's like, oh, there are certain people who, for which the default path doesn't quite work. And all they want is to find other people that share the questions they have about life. And once you meet those people, it's such a powerful connection. Which is a long way of asking, uh, the second, the day after you met me, why did you walk up and hand me The Three Marriages from David Whyte?

[14:19] Jonny Miller: Ah, great question. Um, I think there's a couple of things here. One of them is that people had gifted me books. In my 20s that I really appreciated. And there's something about receiving a book from a friend that A, makes you want to read it more, and B, kind of adds another layer of depth to it. And that book just really, really impacted me.

And I'd been just obsessed with David Whyte for a while. And I'm sure you can empathize of like, If you find someone's work that you're just like, this is so good. When you meet someone who is asking similar questions and is on a similar kind of path, you're like, here, like, take this. Like, this is, there's so much, there's so much wisdom here. Um, yeah. And it was, and the second piece is, I think, um, part of my, like, Pathless Path journey has been learning to trust my intuition a bit more and just, like, acting on those impulses.

And I think that was a That was a good example of like a really clear, like, impulse of like, I don't know why, but I think you should just have this. Like, I'm just going to give you this. Um, and I'm glad I did because it definitely led to some cool things.

[15:38] Paul: Yeah, David Whyte is so powerful. We could probably go a couple hours just on his writing, but he's, he's the first person I read. And it's also the, the place I found the phrase The Pathless Path, which has ties to Buddhism and Taoism and things like that. But he writes, when you first discover the phrase The Pathless Path, you are not fully supposed to know what it means. But I write in my book, as soon as I saw this phrase, it meant everything. It sort of gave a phrase to something I had been experiencing in the body but couldn't really articulate.

It was the gap between what people were asking me what I was up to and what I was trying to convey. So it was super powerful. But he was also just a transcendent voice that seemed to cut across all the nonsense of how we talk about work in modern culture, which is either around like hyper-success or even like starting a startup or things like that. And really just getting back into like the body even. And it's like, what's the lived experience of what we're dealing with in today's world? Not should it exist or shouldn't exist.

Like, this is what is happening. How do you actually orient your life around this? Super powerful. What, what are some of the biggest lessons you've taken from David? I know you've actually spent some time with him as well. Yeah.

[17:13] Jonny Miller: Um, well, just to kind of echo that piece, I think, I think what The Pathless Path meant to me was almost like this big permission slip in some ways of like many of us, um, looking to kind of find like a raft of identity or security to grab onto. But the idea that The Pathless Path is this almost kind of essential part of the process. Validated and normalized it for me. And it's a beautiful kind of image to work with as well. But in terms of the things that I took away from David's work, well, I mean, he inspired me to write poetry is one. I never cared for poetry at all until I came across his writing.

It just kind of went way over my head. And something about listening to his voice, and in particular in the wake of grief and kind of loss, his words were able to kind of point to and articulate something that I was feeling that I didn't really know how to express. And spending this week with him in Ireland and kind of being around him, and just the way that he speaks, not even the words that he does, but he has this way of almost casting a spell with his words and with his language that is just so captivating. And I think for me, he really embodied someone who has lived with so much depth and he's dedicated his life to try to point to these experiences which many of us have touched, and he's able to do so.

And the combination of kind of his work as a naturalist guide and the fact that he said that his writing appeals to both hemispheres, like the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere. I think that's something that I appreciate about it. It's both specific and you can kind of grasp what he's saying, and it's also beautiful and poetic. And this idea, he speaks of like poetic attunement or the poetic imagination. And it is really a way of being in the world. It's like a way of noticing beauty and appreciating the depth of things.

That's, I think he, he like opened the door for me for that. And then inspired the short poetry book that I wrote later that year as well. Yeah. And I think also his book Consolations. Particularly the words around courage and friendship really hit home for me in a big way. And it's just, I mean, that's a good example of something that I will remember, forget, and remember.

And rereading those words in that book on a regular basis, it's like, oh yeah, that's important.

[20:17] Paul: Yeah, his thing on friendship is so good. I'll definitely link to that. It's— I've gotten such powerful insights from all his writing, his audiobooks. Like, I just finished Crossing the Unknown Sea, and it's— it seems that many people who are able to channel truth go through some sort of traumatic or painful experience. David had experiences where he almost died. Multiple times in the Galápagos.

And he's able to pair that with like a very modern understanding of the world, right? I think this is what makes him so powerful is he can actually articulate what it's like to like work in the corporate world, for example. Whereas like sometimes, like a lot of like woo writing, it's more of like an escape. It's like, okay, once you've escaped reality, you can experience this. But he's like, well, We do live in a world. Here's what I'm experiencing.

Also, I almost died working as a naturalist, and here are some deeper intuitive reflections on the world you might want to think about. How is that connected to some things you've experienced? I mean, I know you've gone through some pretty hard times as well.

[21:41] Jonny Miller: Yeah, well, just to speak to that piece briefly. I remember he was afraid to kind of go into the corporate world originally, and he was also afraid to kind of strike out as being a poet. Like, he worked in the nonprofit world for a while, and it took a great deal of courage for him to announce his identity as a poet to the world. And I think it was someone from Boeing who walked up to him at the end of a talk and said, like, we need to hire you. And he was like, Why do you need to hire me? And he was like, and this guy from Boeing said, because we don't have the language sufficient to describe the territory that we're exploring.

And that was what kind of convinced him to like, okay, like maybe I'll try speaking to companies and businesses. And I think that his like poetic lens is actually really needed in the corporate work. Environments that do have a tendency to be more sterile. But in terms of how his writing and work resonated with my experience, yeah, I think that when I, in the months and years after losing my ex-fiancée Sophie, I'd never really experienced hardship or intensely painful emotions. And there's something about his writing. One of the themes is this idea of kind of surrender and this idea of like leaning into the challenges.

And again, it was like a permission slip and in some ways a roadmap of like, here's how to navigate this really challenging terrain that I didn't know I was lost. Like I didn't really have people to talk to. What to turn to. And he kind of provided a roadmap for this Pathless Path of navigating grief. And many of his words and experiences were both comforting and also kind of inspired me to not only go deep into the feelings, but to write about it and to write some poems that came from that place.

[23:54] Paul: Yeah, and we'll dive into that. Well, probably just good to dive into that now. So you lost your former partner, which I mean, you gave an amazing talk about this. I will definitely link up to this as well on grief, which is— was a TED Talk recorded in Bali. I think people should definitely listen to this. It was amazing, really powerful for me.

But you also talk about, I mean, that year after you sort of went in a deep exploration of like how to heal. And I encourage you to write about this recently, sort of, you went to all these retreats, you did different coaching modalities, you did different medical treatments, psychedelics, psycho technologies, the whole gamut. What sort of told you that was what you had to do?

[24:58] Jonny Miller: Hmm.

[24:59] Paul: Hmm.

[25:01] Jonny Miller: I think there's probably two things that were at play here. The first was fear in that I'd met kind of in the same way of like seeing older people who were in jobs that I really didn't want. I'd seen people who were kind of in their 40s and 50s who had lost someone close to them and they hadn't, for whatever reason, they hadn't been able to feel the grief. And it had left them as almost these like husks of humans, these almost like slightly not quite real, bitter people. And I think I realized my own tendency to not really feel my own emotions. I mean, like I said, I went to like a British boarding school.

Um, and I wasn't particularly in touch with, with my feelings or my emotions. So I was like, I don't want to end up like that. And, and so I started kind of exploring like what might be some, um, like some things to try that would give myself the space and maybe the tools and the communities to, to really feel into this and to feel held. Initially that was a, uh, there was a Vipassana meditation retreat that was happening, um, very close by. So that was just like, I was like, screw it, like, let's just, let's try this. Um, I've got nothing to lose.

Um, and that then I was then invited to join a plant medicine ayahuasca ceremony in England as well. And that was incredibly powerful. And I think at some point the fuel switched from being kind of, I'm afraid that if I don't heal this or feel this, then I'll end up like broken in some way to, wow, this is incredibly fascinating. And the whole new worlds are opening up to me that I didn't even realize existed in the same way that when I went traveling, it was that experience of like, wow, there is so much here. There's so much to learn. Um, and I think I applied that same kind of adventurous curiosity to, um, to these different modalities, whether it was meditation, whether it was breathwork, whether it was freediving, um, and some of the different retreats that I've been on.

And yeah, and so as the years kind of progressed, I just became more and more interested in these, in these skills and these practices and these spaces which were so meaningful to me. Like, really, some of the most beautiful and meaningful experiences in my life have happened in these kinds of containers where it feels like there is permission for the full spectrum of me, the full spectrum of my humanity, of other people's humanity and emotions to be there and to be present. And witnessing and hearing these stories from people, it was it's just really powerful and not something that I'd experienced before. And so then going back to, um, going back to like the old world, it felt like shallow somehow and like wanting to bring that depth into my everyday life, you know. Um, so I think that was certainly the driving force.

[28:23] Paul: And I think this is something that connects us. We both have sort of discovered different relationships with showing up in the world, different states of being where we're sort of like frustrated with like, don't you see how exciting this is? Don't you see the possibilities?

[28:40] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah.

[28:40] Paul: And I think you've actually been a really great and inspiring role model for me for like really injecting like, what does a positive vision look like? I think when we first spent extended time together. I spent 6 weeks with you in Bali in early 2019, and you really were practicing and experiencing a lightness, a playfulness. It was like, oh, that, that's something different. That's exciting. Whereas I think I was still going through my transition of like being against my previous path.

And really my whole journey has been learning to let that evaporate rather than figuring out something that is against that, which I think is a big failure mode in a lot of people who do take different paths is they are permanently against their old path, their old self, rather than like, I don't know, you'll probably come up with better words than I'm using here, but like, oh, the one I think I've picked up from you is just like softening into. Who you are and who you're meant to be.

[29:52] Jonny Miller: Yeah, I so agree. And I, as you're talking, I was just reminded of the conversation we had on my podcast where you shared how, as you were writing your book, like you had this moment where there was this kind of like real epiphany, I guess, along the way. And I guess I've noticed in you like more lightness and like more playfulness since then, which is really cool to see. And I think for me, that has been part of the path too. It's like I begun this also taking myself really seriously and, um, you know, not really being in touch with that playful, creative, like mischievous part of me. And I think that in the last year or so, um, that is really coming alive more in a big way.

And that I like, I love that. And I love to see it in other people as well.

[30:41] Paul: Um, Yeah, it's— so I saw you recently celebrated your birthday and there's a video of you and your now spouse Kelly dancing in the morning. And like, I see this and I love it. I'm like, that is Jonny. I love it. It still scares me to like, see that. And I think a lot of people are like this.

When you see people doing silly things or fun things or just like really leaning into our human weirdness. Does it scare you sometimes seeing other people do those things? And does that drive you to do these things?

[31:21] Jonny Miller: Yeah, I think it brings up a bunch of things. I remember when I was in Nepal, about to go on a 10-day vision quest with my friend Jay, our mutual friend Jay, and there were these kids playing in the field. and they were playing with such reckless abandon, such lack of inhibition that it brought me to tears. And I remember I was feeling the grief for my own repressed playfulness because I knew it was in me, but I just didn't feel capable of playing to that same extent. And I think for me, being part of community and having friends for whom that's kind of the norm is a big part of it. Going, you know, things like the dances that happen in Bali.

I think a large part of what breathwork has given me is almost like an acceptance of all types of experiences. Like I've seen and also just been through some pretty crazy things that now, like the idea of dancing in a park, it's like, yeah, like why not? It's like, that's like totally normal. And yeah, I mean, I think when I go back to, I imagine if I went back to London and was kind of in the environment with my old friends, there would still be that kind of inhibition would come back online, but it's almost like I'm gathering people around me that have even less inhibitions than I do. And it's like, that's permission to then, you know, see like, where's my edge? Like what feels a little bit uncomfortable, but what also feels fun and just exploring that.

And Boulder is actually a really great place for that because I think there's a beautiful collection of super weird people. I actually feel pretty normal in some contexts. Straight-laced is maybe a better word.

[33:19] Paul: You seem, you seem sort of drawn to that edge. Um, I, I approach a lot of this stuff with the mindset of like, Okay, I'm going to let Jonny experiment with this for 2 years and then get like the 80/20 of how to onboard onto this.

[33:40] Jonny Miller: I'm—

[33:41] Paul: my edge is like a little further back from your edge. What draws you to that edge?

[33:48] Jonny Miller: I think it probably comes back to curiosity slash a fear of being boring. And I think for me, like one of the values that I think I've held kind of close to me over the years has been this idea of like courage and courageous curiosity. And so if I notice something that I'm afraid of, there is some part of me that's like, I want to go into that. I don't know where that comes from. It's just something that I've generally always had. And honestly, it's like, the more that I've been on this like weird path and been doing these weird things, the more lightness and freedom and sense of like embodiment that I have.

And it's, I wouldn't want to go back. Like there's so much more, uh, less rigidity and more aliveness in in like everything, like whether it's like the way Kelly and I like have breakfast in the mornings to like the friends that I— it just, it really does impact everything. And so there is this like desire to kind of keep exploring those, those edges. And yeah, I mean, Austin is also, I think, like a sister place to Boulder in many regards. If like there's a lot of Um, you know, people explore exploring tantra and all of these different things that feel quite edgy to the average person.

[35:22] Paul: Yeah. Breathwork is a huge thing here now in Austin, and I think is increasingly powerful. I think I actually, the only time I've done breathwork was with you. And I think I am very, I am like normie adjacent when it comes to like this kind of stuff. And I think I deeply trust you because I've seen you up close and you put so much care into how you introduce this stuff to other people, which I mean, the whole nature of exploring edges, the kind of people that are drawn to exploring the edges sort of, I think, sometimes lack a groundedness, both to like the broader reality. And this is probably what like draws me to David Whyte too, because the sense of groundedness with the exploration of the edges?

Like, what, like, how do you think about these things? Because I do sense you have a sort of guiding philosophy and groundedness, which is like really good at like rejecting the 20% that is like, this is probably bullshit. And but rooting it in, yeah, a grounded curiosity, I might call it.

[36:40] Jonny Miller: Yeah, great question. I think that both because I'm coming from like the startup world and being quite heady for a lot of my life, I have that part of me that is always pretty skeptical of things which, you know, haven't really been studied or just people making kind of wild claims without backing it up in some kind of way. And I think I've been drawn to, and also just been lucky enough to connect with with teachers and mentors who I consider to be both very grounded. And I think in the context of breathwork specifically, something I really respect about Ed, who is my teacher in Bali—

[37:21] Paul: Ed Dangerfield.

[37:22] Jonny Miller: Yeah, Ed Dangerfield— is his deep knowledge of the nervous system and understanding of polyvagal theory and his kind of conscientiousness around creating safety and creating a safe container to go into some of these things. And he's actually quite outspoken against a lot of the ways in which breathwork, for example, is practiced, where there might be 200 people in a room with like 2 facilitators and they pump music and they blast people through their, what's known as like the window of tolerance. And it's actually unsafe. Like there's a lot of stuff that happens that I consider to be not, at the very least, like not helpful or not conducive to any kind of growth or healing. And I think it is a balance. It's like on the one hand, there are these people who like, you know, Burning Man is probably a good example where like real edges are pushed.

And I think that is great. And there does need to be that level of groundedness as well. So yeah, it's definitely a balance.

[38:28] Paul: What originally got you into breathwork?

[38:31] Jonny Miller: Freediving. I was doing a freediving training in Bali and the guy who was teaching me, he said he'd been trained in this breathwork thing and he put on a playlist for 90 minutes, I think it was. And about halfway through, I had an experience that was as powerful and meaningful as anything I'd experienced on psychedelics. and I actually connected with Sophie in a really meaningful way, and I was kind of crying, and I came out of it, and I was like, whoa, what just happened? Like, what was that? I was just breathing.

I went into it with this very naive kind of view, I guess. Like, oh, it's just the breath. And then meeting Ed when he first landed in Bali, we just happened to meet in the sauna, I think. And I was like, oh, this guy seems like he really knows what he's talking about. He seems really interesting. And so becoming friends with Ed and then spending more time with him, doing a journey with him and realizing how much there was there and how much depth there was to the way that he has, he essentially maps breathing patterns onto repressed emotions or what he calls like incomplete reflexes.

And through the course of a journey, as the breath moves to different places, different repressed emotions or experiences tend to surface. And seeing him do a translation, like seeing him breathe someone else and what he was seeing and the types of guesses that he could infer from the way someone was breathing about how they were living their life was incredible. And how they turned out to be true and things that might have happened to them when they were younger. Attachment strategies and the types of relationships that would be likely to have. It's like, wow, you can understand all of this from the way someone's breathing. Like, it's, it's incredible.

Um, and so there was, yeah, like a real respect for the, the craft that he has and his, his teachers as well. Um, like it comes from a lineage. Um, and I still continue to be fascinated by that. Yeah.

[40:40] Paul: What is, what is that specific lineage? Maybe give some people some definitions or frameworks for like, what is breathwork? What I've seen in Austin is like, there's a lot of stuff people are calling breathwork.

[40:55] Jonny Miller: Yeah.

[40:56] Paul: How do you think about that?

[40:58] Jonny Miller: Yeah, it's annoying that breathwork is such like a suitcase word. Like, it means so many things. There's two main kinds. One is like pranayama, which just means like consciously controlling the breath. So Wim Hof or breathing exercises that you might do in a yoga class, for example, where you're doing a certain breathing rhythm to just change your state in some way, maybe find more calm or maybe get energized. And then there's another category where you're accessing more of the subconscious mind.

And the lineage that Ed comes from is known as Conscious Connected Breathing, which comes from a guy called Leonard Orr back in the day. And it's basically like a full inhale, then a relaxed exhale. And this is done for anywhere between 45 minutes to sometimes up to 2 hours to music. And it creates a journey. And when someone loops their breath in this way, it basically can bring up more subconscious material and people can have insights or all the kind of the whole full spectrum of different experiences are possible. Um, and so the main difference is like, you're not really controlling the breath in this way.

You're just breathing in a certain way and then like letting go of doing it. And it just kind of does itself.

[42:19] Paul: What do you think's happening there? Like what? I've had some powerful experiences. My wife Angie has had even more powerful experiences. I think she has a very vivid image, like she can conjure up colorful, vivid images in her brain. I don't have this.

I still need to figure out what the different ways of imagining things are. But yeah, what is happening there? I know she was able to process some stuff that was really hard that she had dealt with, and it kind of just dissolved and disappeared, which I think is what probably made you so excited about this. Like, it's sort of just like you can literally just resolve stuff, which is so different than like, Okay, meet with a therapist indefinitely.

[43:10] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah. So I think there is a huge difference between talking about something versus going into the body and completing the experience that didn't get to be completed at some time in our past. In terms of what do I think is actually happening, the short answer is we don't yet fully know. There's some really interesting research. Projects happening in Bali with BreathLab Bali, where they're, they've got brain scanners and they've got a bunch of different equipment to try and measure the changes in our endocrine system in terms of brainwaves, to find out what is actually happening.

The loose hypothesis is that by breathing in this way, it creates pretty profound shifts in blood chemistry, which then creates an altered state of consciousness, which is kind of like a trance. And in this state, these buffered memories are able, assuming there's kind of sufficient safety, these buffered memories then kind of rise to the surface. And to give an example, I did a journey with someone who had had a near-death drowning experience and his body made all the same movements and did the same things as if he was actually drowning. Um, and, you know, I've, I've witnessed women who've been victims of sexual assault and, um, you know, the full spectrum of experiences where something happens to us, them, when they were younger, but it wasn't safe to react in the way that the body wanted to react. And so that was essentially stored for later.

And in these journeys, it's a space in which these experiences can kind of come Another example is sometimes people are able to breathe down into their pelvis and down into their lower belly, which creates this felt sense of safety, which maybe they haven't had for their entire lives. And so they've been in this state of hypervigilance, tracking everything all the time and feeling afraid. And just by breathing into that space, there's this sense of rootedness and groundedness, which obviously really impacts the way someone shows up in their life.

[45:21] Paul: And this connects pretty deeply to, I mean, one of the most powerful books I've read is The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, I think. And yeah, it was the first time I realized it's like, oh, you can't really figure out these things like intellectually, right? There are certain experiences that are stored in the body and there are all these different techniques for sort of like unscrambling that and let you like finish out the moment you're like stuck on and orienting your whole life toward. What effect did that book have on you?

[46:01] Jonny Miller: Yeah, I think it mostly reinforced a lot of— I actually read it a little bit later, like once I kind of done this training and I fully agree with him. And I think it's such a powerful message that whilst talking about things, I think in particularly parts work can be helpful, which is like working with the different parts of ourselves. And that can be really effective for eliciting whatever the thing is. But in order for it to be fully resolved and like completed or like dissolved, like you said, like happened with Angie, something does need to be felt. Like there is some kind of emotion which needs to be welcomed back in and reintegrated. and until it does, there will be some kind of tension, holding pattern, tendency towards reactivity in different ways.

Um, and the body, like, the body is incredibly smart. The nervous system is incredibly, like, efficient and clever in that it will find ways to try and recreate that experience. Uh, another great book is by a guy called Peter Levine, Waking the Tiger, and he, he describes how one of the patients he worked with, she was creating the same situation in her life in different contexts to try and relive this experience that she, um, that she had had. And she finally got to complete that in a, in a session with him. And he created something called somatic experiencing, which is like, it's another way of, of getting to the same thing. I think breathwork does it without words.

Somatic experiencing is more of a, like, they ask you questions. It's more kind of therapeutic.

[47:35] Paul: My personal experience doing breathwork was actually not dealing with like some traumatic or painful experience a lot. I was just like laughing and super happy the entire time. And I think it was a real big opening and shift for me in letting me lean into that more playful side we were talking about earlier. Am I like an extreme weirdo or is like this common as well?

[48:03] Jonny Miller: No, that's also really common. And I think it's part of what makes it so delightful to do this work is sometimes that happens. And often the deep belly laughter will come on the other side of some kind of sadness or emotional release. And sometimes it just comes out of nowhere. And I think leaning into that, like the depth of that joy can be just as scary as leaning into grief or shame or whatever it is, because people can be afraid to really fucking laugh. We hold back in so many ways.

And someone actually, this guy Sam Sager, who I think you know as well, he was like, your laugh sounds different. And I think that I'd be curious to hear recordings of my laugh back when I was at school, because it is different. There's like a different, I don't know, more freedom, I guess, in the diaphragm that's this present.

[48:57] Paul: Yeah, I, I spent 10 years, uh, working in worlds where people would tell me, like, I literally had people tell me, like, you're showing too much expression in your face, right?

[49:09] Jonny Miller: Exactly.

[49:11] Paul: I mean, it was me, like, being annoying, right? I'm like, oh God, this is bullshit. Um, but like, I learned to, like, tamp down that and become a certain type of actor or performer in a role. And I lost some of that playfulness. And like, I'm getting better, but there's still a lot of space to lean back more into that joy and playfulness. It's, it's so hard as an adult.

Like, we've learned so many ways that like you should be like— you're taught over and over again as a kid, no, you can't do this, don't do that, you're, you're embarrassing us. Like, And like all these little things you pick up over the years and some of them help you make more money and be successful. And then like you get to a point when you're like, oh yeah, I want to be more playful. I have no idea how to get back to that.

[50:06] Jonny Miller: Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the challenge is we're like socially rewarded for some of these like maladaptive strategies or these, you know, ways of repressed being. Where we might earn more money in the short term, but then we get to a point where we have even more money, but we're still not happy. And then there's like this unlearning process. What I'm curious, like, what are some of the things that have helped you access that more?

[50:29] Paul: One, so one thing for me is I just love learning. So trying to tap back into the things I loved learning as a kid, things like playing basketball. They enable me to go back to those, like, joyous childhood periods. I started learning how to yo-yo again last year, and that was something I liked doing as a kid. And like, when I'm doing it, it's like fun. I would like write while I was writing my book.

I would write, take a break, yo-yo. It's just like super fun. Sometimes trying to like just post like I posted like some dance videos on like TikTok just for fun, right? Just like try posting it because it was uncomfortable and it was like, okay, if I can like put this out there, it's like, who cares? Learning how to DJ earlier this year, that was something I just like screwed around with and played around with in college. And it's like super fun to, like, reconnect with that.

And that's kind of like learning how to do things I like doing as a kid or doing those things again. Biking are portals for me to reaccess that energy and inject it back into my life. But yeah, it's, it's been a journey and so much was unlearning the scripts from what I did to be a successful person. And it's so hard because so many of those things help me today, right? But it's in your body needing to learn you don't need all of those things. It's like, okay, I know how to like structure ideas and synthesize information, but I don't need all the other stuff that went with that too.

And by letting go of some of that other stuff, I'm not going to lose the skills. I'm not going to lose the ability to help people and do things. So yeah, it's constant learning.

[52:41] Jonny Miller: What I love about that is the things that you've been learning, they don't really have like a directly practical application. Like I think it'd be quite easy for someone to like learn SEO or whatever it is that like is clearly going to benefit their business. But there's something almost rebellious about dedicating time like, you know, like creative, productive time to something which doesn't have like a measurable outcome. And that feels like rebellious, at least to the scripts that we grew up with.

[53:12] Paul: Yeah. And that was a big unlock for me because on the work side, I do love playing with computers and like learning something like SEO is like weirdly fun for me. Or like learning how to like use a mic and do audio editing and like do a podcast, put out there. Surprisingly fun for me, which is like why I like this path. But it was still loosely connected to work and getting those things outside that are sort of like, okay, I'm going to like take DJ lessons in the middle of the day and like, I am not going to try to land a paid DJ gig. Like, maybe that'd be a fun challenge just to raise the stakes.

But like, that's not the goal. So yeah, it's been cool. Would you have any other challenges for me?

[54:00] Jonny Miller: Challenges? I just like lean more into the weird side of Austin. I think there's a lot of cool stuff there. Yeah. Maybe try something like contact improv. That's something that Kelly and I are thinking about doing, which is— Yeah, I'll get back to you on that.

[54:20] Paul: Awesome. So somebody was asking us to talk about just the feelings of being on a Pathless Path. And I think this is what has connected us because there are, there are so many feelings of being on a path like ours, which is basically like a perma-lostness, right? You're sort of always a bit lost. And I think this is why it makes it so important to have friends. But So I think an interesting way to talk about this was, would be talk, talk to me about leaving the startup.

So quick background, you co-founded a company called MapTheo, which was basically kind of this media brand, beautiful storytelling around travel. You co-founded it with a couple other people. You guys lived in a bunch of different cities and countries all around the world. Did a startup incubator, but ultimately you kind of found yourself at the end of that kind of seeking something beyond that. So maybe talk to us about that and then we'll dive into kind of your solo journey as well.

[55:30] Jonny Miller: Yeah, I think it's a great question. I remember the thing that actually led me to make the decision to leave was reading this quote by Annie Dillard, and she said, how we spend our days is in the end how we spend our lives. And I remember reading that, and despite being very, uh, infatuated with the mission and the vision for the company MapTier, what I was actually doing on a daily basis was essentially a glorified email monkey. Like I was just writing emails to these photographers and it was boring and numbing and I'd been doing it for a long time.

[56:11] Paul: And so, excuse me, quick interjection here while you catch your breath. I found in— I was reading your old Medium essays this morning and you had one about like the recipes of growth marketing. And I clicked in the article like It wasn't very good and like, like it was interesting. It was like very Jonny Miller spin on like trying to make growth marketing interesting, but there wasn't like much depth there and it was like, oh, this is not Jonny's thing. Yeah, you were not destined to be a growth marketer.

[56:53] Jonny Miller: That's, that's funny. I guess you can't hide your old identities on the internet anymore. Yeah, I mean, I think that says it all really. I was feeling unfulfilled and unnourished and I wasn't learning, growing, excited. We weren't making much money. There were a bunch of reasons why.

But still, the decision to leave and to essentially give up the identity of being a startup founder was very scary. And I remember there being this real void on the other side where I'd never had a real job. I didn't know if I had any skills and I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I was just kind of like lost, like completely lost without really any sense of where to go. I was fortunate in that a friend asked me to be a mentor for this thing in London called the Startup Tribe. And that was almost like him throwing me a rope when I was like, adrift in the ocean.

And that then led to a new role as a teacher and something that I got a lot more fulfilled from. But in terms of the actual, like, The Pathless Path and the feelings associated, yeah, I was saying to Kelly recently that I think actually it's only been recently, kind of since becoming closer with you and, you know, the groups that we have and friends on Twitter that I actually feel less alone. I think there was still a good part of my journey where I really was on my own. Like there were different people that I connected to, but there was definitely a feeling of loneliness or like lack of tribe present for a long time. And I think that I wish that I'd sought out to kind of create that tribe earlier on. That would have been incredibly helpful.

Um, and yeah, I like, I've never, I've never had a, a kind of job on the default path because I've always been so afraid of it. But I think some of the feelings have been, I think we've both explored the ideas of ambition in different ways. And I think I've, my pendulum has swung different ways, like throughout the past, sometimes where I'm wanting to change the world and other times where I think ambition is terrible and that you shouldn't be ambitious at all. And For me, it has been a crucible in some ways of trying to find out what is it that I care about. And maybe to come back to the Annie Dillard quote of how do I actually want my days to be? I think that's kind of what a lot of it comes down to.

It's like, what does a good life and what does a good day and a good week look like for me? And how can I structure or like create the conditions so that that is then possible.

[59:48] Paul: Yeah. When— so I want to— I'm going to dive into this. I want to backtrack a little. So after you, you did a few things like Startup Tribe, you were working at Escape the City as a mentor. You also took on a freelance project which kind of like helped you sustain yourself and keep exploring as a part-time digital marketer. Maybe talk to me a little bit about this, how it gave you the space to explore, and then like your decision of finally deciding to let that go.

[01:00:25] Jonny Miller: Yeah, good question. So I was working with a startup called Lithographs for a while, and I was kind of applying some of the skills that I'd learned in Map Tier to helping grow this literary t-shirt company. And I think I both really liked the people that I was working with. And it was a really good kind of bridge. Well, I didn't know it was a bridge job at the time, but by working kind of 2 days a week, I was able to sustain myself, kind of pay for living costs and things like that and give myself freedom to experiment, to go on some of these crazy retreats. Like they were very flexible.

If I wanted to get like, take a month off, generally that was kind of, that was fine. Um, and I was probably working with them for 3 years on and off and eventually got to this point where the other side projects were kind of generating enough money such that I didn't need that anymore. And, but even so, like, I remember it was quite a challenging decision to say like, hey, thank you so much for this, but I'm going to step away now. I'll help you find someone else, but this is no longer lighting me up. Like, I was doing Facebook ads, that kind of thing. And every time I remember opening up the dashboard and just like something inside me just went like, oh, it was just like, I do not want to be doing this long term.

I was good at it. And so I was fortunate in that. But I was very grateful to eventually move on and to find ways to make income, which initially was through coaching founders, that was as lucrative and a lot more rewarding for me.

[01:02:09] Paul: How does that feel giving away? I mean, you could probably have done that for the next 20 years, right? Like, how did it feel just like saying no to a guaranteed and pretty easy income source?

[01:02:26] Jonny Miller: Scary before I made the decision and then incredibly relieving after I made the decision.

[01:02:34] Paul: This is so often the case. This is like the case for many people who take breaks or leave their jobs too.

[01:02:42] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:43] Paul: And what, is it something you're like, oh, I should have done this a year earlier?

[01:02:49] Jonny Miller: That's a good question. Like I said, I wasn't I enjoyed the people that I was around, like with, so it wasn't so painful that I was like, no, I need to, like, it wasn't like a toxic work culture or anything like that. And in some ways, I'm grateful for the buffer and the bridge it gave and kind of the freedom it gave to experiment. Like I know some people working in management consultancy, they'll build up a savings fund and that becomes like the the buffer. So I'm grateful that there was that as a safety net that I knew, right? That I knew I could probably go back to, like, if everything, if shit hit the fan, I could probably find a job doing a similar kind of thing.

So there wasn't really a long-term downside. And the upside was obviously like finding my own thing that I could make money from and really enjoy doing. Which is kind of happening. So I'm glad that I did. And yeah, just not sure that doing it any earlier would have actually been helpful because it might have increased the sense of scarcity. And then, you know, kind of experimenting from that place where you're like, how am I going to pay rent?

Is actually not very helpful either.

[01:04:05] Paul: Yeah, definitely makes sense. There's no like right decision. And looking back, it always seems simpler and also at the same time, counterintuitively, like inevitable that it happened when it did. What— talk to me about some of the other projects that emerged for you at the time. So you were doing coaching, but you're also exploring this thread around like curious humans. That phrase seemed to be very powerful for you.

Talk to me about like what that was, what it still is, and how that kind of kept you energized?

[01:04:45] Jonny Miller: Yeah. So I think Curious Humans, for me, it emerged initially as an outlet to write about my experiences in grief. Like, that's kind of— I started it around that time and writing about these things and sharing them with, you know, it wasn't very many people at the time and I knew most of them personally. Was very cathartic and feeling seen and starting dialogues around these things was really meaningful to me. And the podcast emerged from that. I actually, I had the idea for a podcast about 18 months before I had the courage to actually record an episode.

And I think one of my friends was just like—

[01:05:30] Paul: I think I was verbally harassing you in Bali to launch that.

[01:05:34] Jonny Miller: Which I appreciate you for. It's a mark of a good friendship.

[01:05:39] Paul: Yeah, I think, I think this ties back to what you were saying before is like you were very in solo mode and that was probably a necessary phase on your journey, right? Bill Plotkin, who you introduced me to, calls it kind of like the cocooning stage, right? And I just sensed like hanging out with you is like, wow, he has a lot of wisdom. Like more people need to hear from Jonny. Like, that's what I was sensing. Um, but I think also we have to go at our own speed and pace.

[01:06:14] Jonny Miller: Yeah. And I really appreciate you and the others that did kind of give those nudges. I think that's generally a pattern. Like, I often won't do a thing unless there's at least a few people that are like pushing me in that direction. Um, and, and the podcast in particular. I think it still is and has been the most creatively rewarding project that I've started.

And there's something for me, I mean, even right now, like having conversations like this with either good friends or with people that I really look up to, like Bill Plotkin, like David Whyte, like these people that I consider to be mentors and having some kind of wisdom, which I wasn't introduced to when I was younger. So in many ways, I think it's like, it's my attempt to, um, like answer the question, like, what does it mean to live a good life and to be a mature, like well-rounded human? And I've been finding these different perspectives either through books or through maybe other podcasts. And the fact that like I can read something and then email the author and be like, hey, do you want to come on my podcast? And get like a free 2-hour conversation. It's insane.

You can have conversations with theoretically almost anyone in the world. And because I also love learning and because I really love having these conversations and the craft of asking good questions, it's been so fun. And it has led to a lot of serendipitous opportunities and projects and things that I couldn't have predicted, but I still Even if no one listened to any of the episodes, it would have been a huge win for me. And I imagine you feel the same as well.

[01:07:59] Paul: Yeah, I think a big thing for me generally has been really orienting around that. What are the things I want to do for the sake of themselves? Which can also be a trap, I think, because you can kind of just reject offering these things to a wider audience or even trying to make money sometimes, which I think I took really slow. It's interesting, like, looking back, like, what you were— you were kind of like always testing ideas. You were telling me, okay, you had this like how to be a human idea, right? And you had this idea of like doing like 100 different people, 100 different ways of like living.

And it felt interesting, like always listening to that, but it never felt like— and I think you felt this too— it never felt like the right thing. And you always like struggled to fully like go all in on that, which was probably— which like makes so much sense now because of what I think you have with Nervous System Mastery right now is just like, oh, yep, yeah, definitely. Like, this is, this is Jonny's thing. It's more centered around like your story, more like genuinely powerful. Talk to me about like trying to constantly, like, find the thing because people see people like me and you and they don't actually see the 100 other, like, micro experiments. We're like testing with our friends.

Should we do this or should I write a book? Or when we first met, I was preview— I showed you like my future of work mindset survey and like I had this whole like future of work framing. Definitely wasn't my thing, but like, it was a necessary step to get to the things.

[01:09:53] Jonny Miller: Yeah, it's such a great, such a great point. And like, I remember I, I, this will give you a window into who I was at the time. I created a spreadsheet with, I think there must have been like 25, 30 different ideas for experiments, projects. There's probably a book in there as well. Courses.

[01:10:10] Paul: Oh, the experiment tracker, right?

[01:10:12] Jonny Miller: Yeah. And like, I tried to rank them by like, you know, how much money could this make? How exciting did it seem? You know, these different variables, these different factors. And I think I was really wrestling for a long time with like, what is the thing that I can go deep in? And because I felt like I was doing lots of things in like a shallow way, but none of them were really landing.

And yeah, it's such a, it's such a like a fine line between committing to something to kind of get to a certain point where you know if it's the thing or not, versus like trusting your intuition and just like waiting and just being patient for the right thing to come along or the right invitation to come or the right piece of feedback or connecting ideas in a new way. And it's probably really frustrating for listeners who might be in that position right now. Like, I don't know which direction to turn to. But there is something like when it clicks, you kind of know that it clicks. And almost like in my experience with, say, nervous system mastery is that it's almost taking on a life of its own and generating its own momentum in a way where I'm less doing it and more just like moving the direction a little bit.

But it's, I like, I really empathize for people who are in that kind of experimental phase. And I think the, The thing that helped me the most was viewing everything as an experiment and not kind of fully committing to anything necessarily and giving myself time, giving myself spaciousness, reflecting, talking to friends. If something fails, like find out, like, you know, what do I enjoy about that? What didn't work? And just like learning about yourself and what you enjoy doing and what what seems to resonate.

[01:12:01] Paul: Yeah. And it's so hard. I think especially once you create space in your life, you often unlock this hunger and this energy and that energy, like we map it to this script in the modern world. It's like we need to do something. We need to have an impact. And it's interesting how you were unlocking this deep connectedness to your intuition, but still like using a spreadsheet to like rank the potential impact.

You could have. I think I was like pushing against your spreadsheet at the time, like very subtly.

[01:12:33] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Well, so the interesting things come out of that is, is I used my intuition. Like once I saw the thing that like came out top, quote unquote, I was like, that doesn't feel right. And so it's like, oh, interesting. This was a tool to help me like get more clarity on my intuition for this thing.

[01:12:50] Paul: Yeah. And another interesting inflection point, I think you definitely reached out to me was you got offered a job, which I think is a flattering title. You were offered the Chief Joy and Well-Being Officer job. And I love how you've made this decision. This is a powerful frame I've adopted. You wrote, imagine feeling into a space of abundance.

You have all the time, resources, and credibility that you need. Forget all scarcity. Where do you see yourself and what would you be working on? You sort of asked yourself this question and you decided you wouldn't be in this job. Talk to me about that inflection point.

[01:13:32] Jonny Miller: Yeah. So that's actually a good— that's interesting because it was my friend Danielle. Like, I came to her being like, I don't know what to do. Like, I'm stuck. And she guided me through that question. And like, not only like intellectually, but she was like, got me to feel in my body.

Like, how does this feel? When I did that, it was really clear. And I think that in most of these inflection points, it was because I went to someone that I trusted and I was like, help me, help me figure this out. And the more that I felt comfortable doing that and less embarrassment, less shame, less awkwardness, it's really helped with the decision-making. And I think things like that, like I don't necessarily do that now, but I think the decisions that I make they do tend to be much more just like, how does this feel in my body? And I can usually get a pretty good sense of that.

Is it like tight and contracting? Like, uh, like, am I doing this because I think I should do it? Or is it like open, expansive? Like, this feels fun. This feels playful. This feels exciting.

And that has become just, you know, everything from like, what am I going to eat for dinner tonight to the bigger questions like, do I take this job? And in hindsight, I'm I'm really glad I didn't take that job. But it was like you say, it was like a flattering thing to receive.

[01:14:54] Paul: Yeah, you described this much better in the essay. You described it as a visceral felt sense of realization in my chest and stomach as a goosebump-inducing wave of knowingness. I love that. That was great. Yeah, you have such a playful use of words, which, I love. But the interesting thing, as I was reading this again and coming back to not knowing what the thing is, you write, I'm no closer to launching either, either the Curious Leaders Academy, How to Human Book, or Deep Work Bootcamp.

Right. So we sort of know we can know what the direction we're supposed to be going or or know which way we're not supposed to go, but like still landing on like what we're supposed to be doing is so hard, right? It looks so obvious looking back, but like moving forward, like, what does that, what does that feel like? I know for me, there's this sense of like possibility and that keeps expanding, but that also means there's like 100 options of where to go?

[01:16:08] Jonny Miller: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, one image that I played with a lot was this idea of like moving towards the mountain and just kind of taking a step in the right direction. And in the same way that you've been talking about, like learning things that don't have a practical immediate application, like yo-yoing, for example. Um, the, the, the, the is, and I think there almost always has been a trust in that if there's a sufficient desire in me to do something or to learn something, then that in itself is, is worth pursuing. And there's a trust that someday down the line, it will come back in a way that I couldn't have foreseen. Um, so to give, to give an example, there was a, um, a retreat with a guy called Jan Shipchase in Japan that we actually, you know, I met up with you just before attending.

And I had no practical reason to go here. Like, I didn't really know the guy. It was really expensive. I didn't have all that much money at the time. And, but I was still like, there's something in me that like, I really want to go to this. I don't understand why.

And I went and it was an amazing experience for many reasons. But afterwards, we ended up connecting. We both stayed on a day and he essentially invited me to run some workshops with him around emotional resilience. and this, and this was basically the opportunity that then led me to do the research, which has then led to Nervous System Mastery. And so had I not followed that, like, intuitive hit to go on this retreat, that conversation would never have happened, the workshops never would have happened, and I'd probably be doing something very different today. Um, so I think it really is just this, like, increasing trust of my own intuition and trust in myself.

To keep walking and to be okay in the not knowing. I think that's a big piece. It's like being okay with the uncertainty in the liminal space and finding others who are there as well.

[01:18:14] Paul: Do you sense looking back there are different alternate paths, or is there an inevitability to your current path?

[01:18:22] Jonny Miller: That's a big question.

[01:18:24] Paul: We might need David Whyte quotes for this.

[01:18:27] Jonny Miller: It reminds you of the Tim Urban graphic. With the different parts. Yeah. Is there an inevitability? I like the idea that we have, as David Whyte would say, there is an image at the center of our lives. And in some way, if we are walking our path, then we are writing, creating from that place that speaks to that image.

What that what that actually is. I think there's many different iterations, applications. But I think that you, and you can see in someone as well, like when they are working or creating from that place, that is something like it connects with their personal story, it connects with their gifts, it maybe connects with like a wound or challenge that they went through. And it's like, that's, that's their thing. And I think there could be many different iterations of that, but it comes from the same spark or the same impulse within us. And it does change as well.

I mean, like, um, Stephen Krape's book, which I know we've both read, he's like, your dharma can change many times. And it's like staying in tune with that and like constantly like recalibrating to be like, does this still feel like it's in tune with me? Um, that, I think that's the, constant challenge.

[01:19:51] Paul: Yeah, I think Stephen Cope talks about Robert Frost, right? He had this call to write and it led him to this farm in the middle of nowhere for 10 years. But then that shifted and he sort of had a new journey. And being on a path like this, like, I very much buy into that. And when people ask me like, well, what's your plan for when you retire? What are you going to do when you get to old age?

It's like, it's really hard to just tell them, well, I need to develop a sense of connectedness with my body so I can pay attention to when my dharma shifts.

[01:20:24] Jonny Miller: But have you tried saying that? How does that—

[01:20:27] Paul: I think I will experiment. I think that just came up right now in conversation. But that's really the answer. And the more It's so weird. Like, the more you learn to listen to this and like things sort of just work out or like you don't fall into utter failure, you're like, your life doesn't fall apart. You can, you can really reach this state where like you do have the sense that things are going to work out.

And that is so hard. Like, if there is one thing I wish I could like bottle up, It's that feeling. And like, just let people sample it for like 10 minutes. But I think the truth is you probably have to go through your years-long journey to get there. Like, do you have a sense of what I'm talking about? Like that bottled up feeling?

Like, do you have that sense too?

[01:21:30] Jonny Miller: Yeah, I love the way you put that. And For me, it's kind of, I think Charles Eisenstein writes about this really beautifully, but it's this idea of like trusting in life and trusting in ourselves to navigate life and not micromanaging every single kind of possible future scenario. And I think that trust comes from, it comes from a series of experiences when you have trusted and when things have you know, worked out in some cases better than you could have imagined. I remember when Kelly, like my now wife and I, first met, she was in America and there was this sense of, and she was with another, another partner at the time. And I made a decision at the time of like, I just trust that like, if this connection is meant to unfold, then it will. And I don't need to force it or figure out some plan of how it's going to happen.

There was just this trust, I guess. And the more that I can lean into that and sip from that bottle and notice when I'm in the forgetting, right? Like the times where, let's say, like the course launch is coming up soon and I notice myself in this semi-frantic mode of like, must do this, must do this, must do this. I'm like trying to manage everything. And I was like, oh, that's not helping. Like, I'm just like forcing and pushing as opposed to trusting myself and trusting that like things will flow and things will unfold.

And I still like, I catch myself in so many different ways, but it does come back to that, like, that ease. It's like, ah, like it's, it's going to be okay.

[01:23:17] Paul: See, that, that's perfect for your course too. If anything doesn't go well, you can just be like, well, this is a good opportunity to practice emotional resilience.

[01:23:28] Jonny Miller: Exactly. Right. Yeah. And then be a hypocrite.

[01:23:33] Paul: So, yeah, like, wait for the opportunities to emerge. But you did, once she left her partner, book a flight to a snowy place in the middle of a pandemic. Like, how does that happen?

[01:23:49] Jonny Miller: Well, I was visiting a friend and we had made an agreement via email that if we were within 250 miles of each other, that we would meet up as friends. And so I was in Colorado, she was in Lake Tahoe. I sent her an email. She later said that Colorado was actually like 500 miles away. She chose to ignore that bit. So after staying with friends here in Colorado, I flew to Lake Tahoe to just meet as friends and just be together.

And that's when the connection really unfolded. And then I might as well just tell the whole story. I then went back to Bali. We kind of were like semi-together. And then I flew to Mexico for a workshop on emotional resilience, which was then canceled the day that I landed because of COVID And so I called her up and said, Hey, I think the borders might be about to close. Can I just come and stay for a week or two while this quarantine thing blows over?

And she was like, sure, okay. And so I did. And then COVID happened. And then we haven't really left each other's side since then. So that's just another example of, had I not been in Mexico, I might have been in Bali for the whole pandemic, and we probably wouldn't have— everything would have been very different.

[01:25:08] Paul: Yeah, it seems like retreats and workshops have shaped a lot of your path over the last— They have.

[01:25:15] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that points to something else, which I think we're both very good at in certain ways, which is like investing in serendipity. And I think you like not know, you know, placing lots of like small bets that feel aligned and you don't know which one's going to pay off. But if you like kind of do this enough and you put balls in the serendipity jar, Eventually things will start coming back to you. And that might be, you know, being generous, like helping out a friend.

It might be going to a retreat, like investing in serendipity when you're in this lost phase of The Pathless Path. It will eventually come back to you.

[01:25:48] Paul: Yeah. And that is so hard for people to understand, like leaving a job. We sense that the problem to be solved is finding paid work or finding another job. And that is a practical reality at a certain point. But also you need to invest in actually building a life because you may discover that your life was not much more than just your job, which I think was the case for me. And a lot of what I was doing, living in different countries, meeting up with people like you, like you mentioned offhand the first time we met, I'm going, I might go to Bali.

I'm like, keep me posted, I'll come. You probably didn't expect like, I'll come and I will literally like definitely come. But yeah, investing in those experiences, I didn't know what to expect. You brought a friend, you inspired a friend Jay to come with you and like we've all bonded. Now we're all in these cross-country marriages. So we have that, that shared bond.

And yeah, there's It's so crazy because like so many of the things I'm doing now were like seeds planted in things that I couldn't have predicted or planned. Right. And that's the whole point of like this Pathless Path idea. But like just learning to trust that like there is wisdom to be found in things that can't be quantified, measured, or planned is like so powerful. And I sense there's this huge arbitrage opportunity which I was kind of writing about this previous week, which is that like this exists and like nobody's paying attention. So like take advantage of these opportunities because you can still like make a living, get a part-time job, get remote work and make your life better at the same time.

It's, it's pretty wild.

[01:27:43] Jonny Miller: Yeah. I mean, especially say if you're earning dollars and living somewhere like Bali, especially the way the dollar is right now, you can you can make that go a long way. But I think the other thing I wanted to mention related to that is, is that the work or the job that you think you want right after leaving a job is probably different to what you might pursue after 6 months, a year of exploring yourself. Like something that I notice in startup founders that I coached is is some of them will, they'll kind of explore themselves to the extent where they realize that the impulse to do this startup was to like prove something to their dad or to, it was coming from this place of like fear or pain. And actually they realized that they didn't want to do the startup. And so they find a way to exit or to sell it and then pursue something else.

And I think that the more that we unlearn these scripts, the more The types of things that we're drawn to changes. And so making that commitment too early before you've done any kind of deep introspection or whatever that looks like for you is probably going to be a mistake because you'll just end up recreating the same conditions that you had in the shit in the job, whatever it was, but in a different guise. It's like, like Kelly talks about, like building a different cage. For yourself.

[01:29:08] Paul: Yeah.

[01:29:10] Jonny Miller: So I think giving yourself that spaciousness is super important.

[01:29:14] Paul: Yeah, I call these hustle traps, which are like scripts that sort of disguise themselves as freedom scripts, but are actually just extensions of the default path world. Like, right, leaving tech to start a startup is like just an extension of default path world. And, um, the— it's really hard to unpair from that. But over and over again, like so many people I've interviewed on this podcast and Laura Lecomte recently, she talked about like leaving Google to do a startup. And then once she decided to not pursue that freelance a little bit, opened up a little space, she started writing. And that, that led to like her curiosity and like everything that opened up after that.

And it's it's just over and over again. It's sort of predictable at this point. It's kind of crazy. Like, what sort of wisdom do you try to convey to others when they reach out to you? Like, what do you tell startup founders in this scenario when they're like, I need to do another startup or like, I need to find my next thing? Like, how do you deal with that?

[01:30:25] Jonny Miller: I've, I very much stopped giving any kind of advice because advice is usually just like my projection in disguise. And it's, yeah, um, even if it is right for someone, like you said earlier, people need to experience things and feel things for themselves. So I think if I'm, you know, if I'm coaching someone or guiding someone through a situation like this, which I'm excuse me, which I actually have been recently. There's one guy that I'm working with that's considering selling his startup to like go pursue a creative career. And it's just helping to ask different questions than questions that might have arisen normally and to give weight to other ways of being. So an example is like making more embodied decisions and weighing that against the, you know, maybe very rational pros and cons of taking path A or path B.

I also really like the idea of like regret minimization of like, can you, like if you were to look back in 50 years' time, which way would you regret the least? And to what extent is Let's say there's a scary decision and like a safe option. Like, can you recover from the scary option in like 3 to 6 months and be in roughly the same place as you are today? Like, to what degree is the decision reversible? And if it is fairly reversible, then, and you're tempted, then you probably haven't got that much to lose by going. If it's something that is like a binary, like a divorce or something, then that is worth kind of approaching with more caution, I think.

[01:32:09] Paul: Yeah. And I think people will often say things to me like, oh, don't you think you shouldn't give this advice? Don't you think this is crazy? It's like the reality is the people who end up taking unconventional paths have a certain sort of like, I have to do this.

[01:32:27] Jonny Miller: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[01:32:29] Paul: And maybe that's just the psychological wiring. Maybe that's just like all of us born like this and then just like basically just spending years doing other stuff and then remembering we had that. But yeah, over and over again, it's like, I have to do this. Like, yeah, that's ultimately what it comes down to.

[01:32:48] Jonny Miller: It's like an increased sensitivity to the pain of not doing it. It's like when you get to the point where you wake up and the thought of going into work to do your job, like, fills you with dread and fear and your body's like, That's when people make it because they can't not do it. No matter how scary not knowing is, the idea of going into another day of that is unfathomable. So maybe it looks brave on the outside, but in many ways, I think people are just doing what feels best. And that's what a lot of it comes down to. It's like, what will make you feel good?

What feels good at this moment?

[01:33:23] Paul: Let's talk a little bit about nervous system mastery. So I think I saw some of the early frameworks you were developing around this, and it's been really cool to see it evolve. And not surprising that so many people are interested because I think you've just built a lot of trust and credibility in this space. But talk to me about what that is turning into and how that's kind of leading the next chapter of your journey?

[01:33:56] Jonny Miller: Yeah, sure. So the inception of this was towards the end of last year. I think I shared a tweet or something. This is a good example of like, this was an experiment that I ran on, like, said a tweet that I'm thinking about doing a 5-week course about the nervous system. You know, would anyone be interested? And a bunch of people replied and our friend Michael, I said like, how can I give you money for this?

Like, let me pay you for this. And so I then created this like a payment link, Stripe link there and then and sent it to him and he sent me money. And that was like, wow, feedback. Like, wow, there's something here. And that then continued to stoke my fire of like creating the curriculum and getting into like creation mode to build this thing that I almost promised online to deliver. And the first cohort went really well.

I had a ton of feedback. I've now basically redesigned the entire curriculum from scratch, which Angie's actually been really helpful in giving me feedback on. And it's converging in this idea of how do you rise out of reactivity and how do you use your biology, use your physiology to cultivate calm, resilience, these things. And it's it's my attempt to distill a lot of what I've learned in these retreats and these trainings and practices that have helped me in a way that is hopefully accessible and backed by various studies and research and things that I've been like nerding out on. But it's really fun. And what I, what I love about it is it's kind of combining my, my passion for teaching and for sharing and kind of writing about this kind of thing with engaging with other friends and people who are curious about this.

And so I'm almost viewing it as like I'm inviting a bunch of people into the space. We're all going to explore questions together. They're going to add perspectives, share stories, like help improve this curriculum. And it's just going to improve a little bit more every time that I do it. And so it's been really fun and also really gratifying to both like make some money from this as well has felt really good. And think about like, how do you craft a really compelling learning experience?

And how do I go from just sharing information, which I think I did quite a lot in the first cohort, which is good, to creating an experience where people get to embody this knowledge in deeper ways. And so it really lands and sticks. And it's such an interesting challenge for me. Like, I just love that. Like, how do you share something so that it really lands and how do you use stories? And so it is like really lighting me up in lots of different ways.

[01:36:46] Paul: I love that. I'm so, I'm so pumped for this for you. I think it's so cool when people find like the thing and you're also able to make money from it. Like, I am of the belief, which I don't know if you can make money from everything you absolutely love doing, But sometimes, like, I think I experienced this in my book, like, more and more people have bought it than I expected this year. It's sort of like this permission slip from the universe and people to say, keep going. We want you to do this.

Are you experiencing a similar thing with Nervous System Mastery? It's like there, a community of people are basically endowing a professorship for you and saying, like, Jonny, yes, keep going.

[01:37:34] Jonny Miller: My ego loves to hear that. Yeah, it does. It feels really great. And both in the sense of the kind of like, keep going. And here are more people that are going to help to make it better. And here are more people that I want to spend time with and want to learn from myself.

And it does feel like it's, like I mentioned earlier, that it's kind of taking on a life of its own. And I've reached a point recently where I'm like beyond my own capacity and I've had to bring in other people and kind of learn on the fly, like how to build a small team around this because there's more that I want to do than I can like possibly do on my own. And so now that I have a little bit more resources to kind of do that, I can feel it. I can feel like wanting to expand and wanting to grow. And I love it because it's basically just me getting paid to continue learning and researching and sharing stuff that I'm really fascinated by. And so it's like, I'm like, what?

This is so great.

[01:38:41] Paul: You've unlocked cheap mode.

[01:38:44] Jonny Miller: Cheap mode, yeah.

[01:38:47] Paul: What, maybe talk to us about some of the, like, What is the overarching framework of like how you're thinking about this course now?

[01:38:58] Jonny Miller: Sure. So I actually gave a talk about this last weekend in Asheville. It's kind of revolving around the central thesis or framework is this idea of rising out of reactivity. And the RISE stands for reactivity is the R. I stands for interoception, which is our ability to sense, track, and feel our internal landscape, like our sensations, our emotions. The S stands for self-regulation, which is how do we up or downregulate our nervous system as we want.

And then the E is emotional mastery. And that is basically how can we come into a healthy relationship to our emotions where we're not repressing, we're not sharing them in kinked ways, but we're allowing them to flow naturally. And so that's kind of like roughly the week-by-week flow of the curriculum. And then there's a piece around environment design and habits and routines at the end as well. So it's still an experiment. Like, this is the first time that I'm going to be sharing this with a group of people.

I imagine I will learn a lot and there'll be feedback in terms of the delivery. But I think the core around how do you increase the space between the stimulus and the response and how do you Notice in your body the times when you're kind of going into reactivity or when anger might be there or when shame might be there and not making decisions from that place, but like hitting pause and doing something to regulate yourself, to come back down to what's known as like ventral vagal safety, which is like a sense of groundedness, our sense of connection. And then, and then making decisions once we're feeling more like ourselves and less reactive. So that's kind of the core of it. And I think the, um, it's been super interesting to see like teachers joining, startup founders, a firefighter, therapists, coaches, like a really wide spectrum of people are joining.

And I, I'm, I'm curious to get different perspectives on this as well because the nervous system touches so many different things. Um, and I've done my best to research, but there's obviously a lot that I still don't know. I had a great conversation with a guy, Grim Hood, who just shared this download of his research on supplements and getting sunlight. And I'm like, wow, there's still so much to learn here. So I'm doing my best to distill what is most practical and most helpful in the short term, whilst also kind of paving a path for people hopefully to dive into this work in a deeper way, whether that's through one-on-one somatic experiencing, maybe a kind of one-on-one breathwork, or or something that allows them to go even deeper.

This is like a kind of nervous system literacy where you'll know, you'll have the tools to ground yourself in any situation, to understand what's going on through the lens of polyvagal theory, and hopefully begin going down that path in your own way.

[01:41:57] Paul: Yeah. Have you found there are any certain practices that are really powerful for people in terms of like Oh, now I get a different way of sort of seeing how my body works.

[01:42:10] Jonny Miller: Um, yeah, two things come to mind. One is understanding the core concepts of what's known as polyvagal theory. And it's this idea that our nervous system has three branches. There's the sympathetic that most people have heard of. And then there's two branches in the parasympathetic. One is called ventral, one is called dorsal.

And at any time, our body can be in one or more of these states. And learning to recognize what state you're in can be really helpful. So if someone's stuck in sympathetic, they might be angry, they might be anxious, they might be overanalyzing things, whatever it is. And then there are certain tools, say using the breath, that can help you to kind of downshift into a place of safety. Um, and then on the dorsal side, that's like when we're in collapse or depression or shutdown or shame. And like, firstly, recognizing how that feels in the body, being like, oh, like my body is in dorsal right now.

And then having a, like a toolkit to then come back into ventral from there. That's one thing. And then the second, I think, is like one aha moment for a lot of people is realizing how connected the way that we breathe is to our state. And so the breath is almost like a remote control for the nervous system. And so if you want to be more active and more activated, instead of drinking a coffee, you can do something like bellows breath or breath of fire, and it will stimulate you and you'll feel more alert and more active. And then the reverse is true.

If you do something like alternate nostril breathing or 4-7-8 breathing, that will have an immediate effect on your endocrine system, which then shifts your biology, which then shifts the thoughts and the feelings that you're having. And so I think a lot of people have been trying to maybe reframe situations or use their mind to overcome overthinking, but actually kind of intervening using the body. There's many other different things that you can do as well, but kind of starting with the physiology to get to a certain state is often a lot more efficient. At feeling the way that we want to feel.

[01:44:20] Paul: That's powerful. So you planted a lot of curiosity triggers right there. So people are probably like, what is he talking about? 478, bellows?

[01:44:30] Jonny Miller: What—

[01:44:31] Paul: maybe give us one example. Like, what is bellows breath or box breathing?

[01:44:36] Jonny Miller: Okay. Yeah. So bellows breathing is in the yogic world, it's called Kapalabhati, and it's basically a series of rapid exhales through the nose and then a full inhale. And it's kind of like a light version of Wim Hof. And, um, I mean, I could, I could demo it now briefly. It looks like, and then breathe in, hold at the top.

And then you let go. And normally doing like 30 exhales and then doing that for 2 rounds or 3 rounds is very activating and you'll feel this like aliveness and this energy in your body. And that's an example.

[01:45:28] Paul: Yeah, this is so powerful. I sense this is part of this broader shift of like We went through like this analytical dark age of human experience and we're sort of saying, oh, these human bodies are actually pretty powerful. And you're, you're on a journey of discovering all these portals and experiencing some of these things. I think like box breathing has been super powerful for me of calming down my body when I'm like anxious or stressed about something. It's like, oh, let me just reprogram that real quick and I can get back to like a more level-headed way to then start making decisions and things like that.

[01:46:12] Jonny Miller: Yeah, totally. And I love that. And I think related to that is a deeper sense of confidence to go into things that feel scary because you know that you have the tools to calm down and regulate afterwards. So things like the other thing that I'll do sometimes is, I have like a belly stone where lying on my back and just having the stone on my belly and just breathing into that and then sighing is incredibly, like, even if I'm anxious or worried about something, like doing that for a few minutes, I'll instantly feel better. And it's like, I know that I can do that. Um, you know, like any, any time basically.

So it does give this sense of confidence and there's less fear of getting stuck. In any of these places, or say going to drugs or substances to try and artificially regulate when you can just do it naturally through something like the breath or things like forward folds can be very calming. Even relaxing your gaze. Our eyes are part of our nervous system. And so if we just kind of relax our gaze or look at a wide horizon, there'll often be a sigh as well. And that's associated with relaxing and it's like, ah, like, okay, like I feel I'm back in my body.

I'm like back here again. Wow.

[01:47:31] Paul: So much. We're getting real in-depth here. So people are going to have to take the course if they want to really get a map for these. I don't know if we'll be able to do it justice. Otherwise, we'll have to go a few more hours here. But yeah, what an interesting thing I was thinking about is like another psycho technology for like mastering your nervous system is basically just living in different places in different countries.

Like, I've had like scooters stolen. I've gotten parasites and been in the hospital with fevers and seen enormous spiders in different countries and all sorts of different experiences, some of them living with you in different countries as well. So those have been good tests for my resilience and enabling me to take more risks and do different things in my life.

[01:48:28] Jonny Miller: Yeah, I like that. And you've survived. And yeah, and I think that's a point around doing things to push our capacity a little bit. There's this idea of the window of tolerance and finding things which are at our edge or putting ourselves in environments where we might get a scooter stolen or whatever it is and learning that we can make it through the other side. We do grow from that. There is this anti-fragility that gets cultivated.

[01:48:55] Paul: Awesome. So recently Lex Fridman released a 7.5-hour podcast with biology, uh, Srinivasan. Um, I am not going to extend this.

[01:49:05] Jonny Miller: We're trying to beat this.

[01:49:06] Paul: We probably could, but I don't, I think we needed more nervous system prep, um, before this. But, um, yeah, I, I do want to wrap. Um, maybe we'll, hopefully we'll have more conversations like this in the future, but Wanted to do a few rapid-fire questions, one of which I've been asking people is, do you have a PATH role model?

[01:49:32] Jonny Miller: David White.

[01:49:34] Paul: Yeah, that's probably one of mine.

[01:49:36] Jonny Miller: Flash. Um, there's a guy that I interviewed recently called Aaron Alexander, who, um, I've been really enjoying his podcast and his approach to sharing, like, a lot of the science. It's more movement-based. But his, like, goofiness and playfulness has, like, resonated with me. And it's, like, inspiring me to be a little bit even more goofy. What that looks like, I don't know.

[01:50:01] Paul: If you could go back to yourself at the end of high school and plant a seed in your mind, maybe a question, a phrase, you're not going to mess with the timeline too much. You're not going to, like, change the trajectory, but What, what thought, phrase, or question might you incept in your high school self alone?

[01:50:25] Jonny Miller: Trust yourself and trust life.

[01:50:29] Paul: Love that. This might be a longer answer, something I wanted to ask, but what does commitment mean for you right now?

[01:50:38] Jonny Miller: Commitment means a intentional forcing function for greater freedom and depth. Commitment is allowing me in my work and in my relationships to access a more nourishing depth, which I've been craving. Yeah.

[01:51:01] Paul: And I mean, just in a practical standpoint, are you a little scared that you just signed a year-long lease?

[01:51:08] Jonny Miller: I mean, I've just legally got married, signed a year-long lease, and like committed to a work path in the space of a month or two. You know what, it actually feels incredibly liberating knowing that like, I love it. There's a sense of home. It's like an anchor and a base for everything. Like even being away from a week, I was like, I miss home. I miss like, I miss Boulder.

I miss the people. So Yeah, it's been— I do miss the sea, but I know I can get there pretty easily. So it's been great.

[01:51:40] Paul: Yeah. Angie and I were experiencing that this summer too, for the first time for us, where it's like we miss Austin. We want to go back there. We want to see like some of the relationships we've started and continue to grow them. And yeah, it's— I think a lot of people on paths like ours do end up at a point like this. I imagine also there will be additional adventures in our future.

That part of you sort of never dies, but it's great to shift in between seasons, I think, and shift between these different modes. And I think this is one of the greatest possibilities and opportunities of a path like this to have the range of options and to flow between them.

[01:52:28] Jonny Miller: Yeah.

[01:52:28] Paul: Any final thoughts you want to share with us, Jonny?

[01:52:33] Jonny Miller: Well, just on that, I think this relates to kind of the idea of The Pathless Path, like having an anchor, I think, can create an increased sense of safety, which allows for greater confidence in the way that we experiment. Um, and so finding out what that is for you and cultivating that sense of home in yourself first and foremost as well, which I think ties into the trust piece. But yeah, I would just encourage any listeners to keep experimenting and really not lose that mindset. Like even when it feels like, you know, for either of us, I think we're very much still always experimenting and still looking to learn. And I think like if I thought of myself as an expert right now, I think that would not bode well for the future of this course. I think I still very much see myself as a voracious learner.

And staying true to that mindset, I think, is very helpful in all areas of life.

[01:53:33] Paul: Yeah, it's been great. We're in this group chat and it's a really nice space where we can be like, are you guys struggling with your relationships and money too? And then we can all just be like, oh yeah, of course, we're all dealing with this. And like, are you guys struggling with figuring out how to Make decisions? Oh yeah, of course. But yeah, it's, it's been such a pleasure.

Like, I couldn't possibly capture how meaningful your friendship has been to, to me on this path. It's, it's meant so much. And I think like I'm not here today finding some of the things I love and feeling so good about my path without meeting you along the way. And yeah, man, I just really appreciate you. And it's been, it's been great traveling this path with you.

[01:54:33] Jonny Miller: Thank you. That means a lot. And it is entirely mutual. Like, I've really enjoyed— I feel like you're an amazing sparring partner in so many ways. And it's, it's been beautiful to see us both like landing in a similar at least similar country. And I'm excited for the new depths that I think will come now that we're both moving into new chapters.

So I appreciate you too as a friend and a brother.

[01:54:59] Paul: Awesome. Keep going, Jonny. Rooting for you. Nervous System Mastery, nsmastery.com. I will link up to that. Anywhere else you want to point people?

[01:55:10] Jonny Miller: Just on Twitter, say hi. Jonny Miller and The Eyes Were the One. Uh, yeah, join the conversations.

[01:55:18] Paul: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[01:55:20] Jonny Miller: All right. Thank you.