#125 Angie & Paul - We're Having a Kid (and other life updates)

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Welcome to The Pathless Path. Today is a special episode. I am interviewing my favorite all-time guest I've had on the show. Also happens to be my roommate and my wife and The future mother of our baby.

Excited to dive into this today. Welcome to The Pathless Path, Angie.

[01:32] Angie: Thank you, Paul. I thought it's going to be like a mutual conversation. Like we are equals. You're not interviewing me.

[01:38] Paul: Well, you don't ship, you're Angie Creates, so we gotta put it out on Pathless Path first.

[01:43] Angie: No, I mean, like, I thought we're going to be in a conversation instead of me doing most of the talking. But before we start, I wanna ask, like, are we allowed to be as playful as we want in this conversation or?

[01:54] Paul: Yeah, why not?

[01:55] Angie: Because you look kind of nervous right now.

[01:57] Paul: I just getting, uh, yeah, something to explore.

[02:01] Angie: Uh-huh. Okay, let's do it.

[02:05] Paul: All right, so last time we talked, uh, you, uh, were talking about your creator's journey. Um, you're about one year into it. It was in Mexico. This is just about when art and creativity started to explode for you. I think you had a lot of stories in your head about what you should be doing. I think a lot of it you were also trying to copy like sort of my path and make it your own.

What's happened with your creator journey? We'll get to all the fun stuff later.

[02:38] Angie: By the way, like that video, every time I look back and watch that video on YouTube, I was just amazed. So much struggle. Angie struggled so much at that time. Like, she's just like, she has no clue where she's going. She has all the things that she wanted to do and she's afraid of doing. Like, what is she doing?

So I'm so glad that I'm out of that Angie mode now. Um, so at that time, I think I just started my podcast for like 6 months, and we are in the third country of nomading. Um, I had this cohort-based course about fitness theory that I want to build but never really never really take any action. And after that, when we go back to Taipei, I started building the course. We finished the course around summer, and instead of feeling super proud of myself, I was like, oh wow. Like in Chinese, we have a saying that we put a stone in our heart down finally.

Like we finally let something go. So I feel like I can finally move on instead of, oh, I did something I'm super proud of. And that's something that I should really tap into, like just listening to my heart. And so at that time I was like, okay, I finally can move on from this for the next chapter of my life. I probably don't like fitness as much as I thought, but what should I do?

[04:03] Paul: We had a lot of fights because I would just tell you to quit this.

[04:09] Angie: Yeah, I remember when I was just a trainer in Taipei and in our small, tiny, 12 Ping Studio in Nangang area, and then we'll be in the living room. I will just be just coming back from coaching from the gym, and then I'll listen to Paul say to me, one day you are going to move on from this fitness thing, and I found out you were actually curious about other creative stuff. And I was like, this man had no idea what he's talking about, but he's always right. Gotta tell you, he's always right.

[04:37] Paul: Well, I just have— I think I'm desperate in my own life and seeing other people for them to do things they really want. It was very clear early on you didn't actually like fitness. I think you left the tech world and you really wanted to make the next thing work. You want— you wanted to prove yourself. Like, you also wanted to, like, you wanted— you had this bet. You were telling people, oh, fitness, fitness, I love fitness.

And then you're doing it and your heart wasn't in it. And it was hard for me to see. I hated seeing that. And it was cool to see you do the podcast on the side of the fitness because that's when you came alive. Not because of fitness, but because you love asking questions and learning.

[05:26] Angie: I want also— I will later continue to talk about what happened, but I wanted to talk about this painful passion versus abundant passion part. So I feel like I still love fitness, and looking back, I absolutely don't hate fitness. I like, I got so fired up, like the blood is brewing in my bone. Blood probably did— it's not like going inside of them, but what I mean is I feel so like freaking passionate when I talk about fitness stuff. Even nowadays too, when someone asks me a random question about fitness, I'll just say, no, this is the way to approach it, and you can also talk about this and looking from this nervous system aspect, blah blah blah. Like, it will still be in my life, a huge part of me, for the rest of my life for sure.

But it's a painful passion. It's something that I struggle from the, from the side of scarcity. Like, I always feel like I'm not good enough to coach people. I always feel like there's so much about human body that is unknown, and I am— I will never be able to like 100% solve the chronic pain. I will never be able to like be the, be the type of coach who just are so confident and not have any uncertainty about human body at all. And so like, talking about fitness is always driven from scarcity for me.

So after, after I'm done with that course, I was done with that course, I started to work with Rob Hardy to coach me in exploring a new direction of my creative journey. I started experimenting on writing online. More seriously, I submitted my article about transitioning from a digital nomad to like settling down potentially in a city in the States. Like, what is like— what's the story that told me? Um, and after that, we moved to the States together. I struggled to find a job in a corporate world because I have narrative that we can talk about later.

I have a narrative that in order to be seen as a successful, lovable human, I need to work in a corporate world in the States, even though I don't think so when I'm nomading or in Taiwan. I joined passage. I started creating again. I started working as a freelancer and that's where I am now.

[07:44] Paul: Awesome. So yeah, our last interview we were in Mexico. You had, um, and I'll link that below. Um, we were, so we were in Mexico, we're like a year into the journey. You had a lot of like stuff you were trying to figure out. You went on this like travel around with me trying to create your own work.

Hadn't really found something, struggled to make money. So 2021, you go back to Taiwan. I'm like still doing my thing. I still have no idea what I'm doing, trying to figure out my things, like, but I'm making money. You launch your fitness course. You sort of realize, okay, this is like my final complete release of fitness.

What was that like, like letting go of something you started? Like, your podcast you didn't even let go of until 2022, um, and sort of rebrand it. But what was it like, like, going into fitness thinking like, this is my thing, and then having to release that?

[08:45] Angie: Um, so I actually didn't completely release it until this January. So what happened is I created a course, and then the money just coming in, and I was like, what How much money did you make? So I made, I think, like around $7,000 for my first cohort, which is around like 40, 30 to 40 seats for my first cohort.

[09:09] Paul: And that's pretty amazing for Taiwan. Yeah.

[09:12] Angie: Yeah.

[09:12] Paul: Given like the Taiwan cost of living and average salaries, that was pretty incredible. And you were like, this is incredible at first, right? But like, right.

[09:21] Angie: It was incredible for like maybe a few weeks until another fitness influencer friend I have also launched her course, a self-paced one for $700, and sold out 200 seats in 3 nights. And I feel like a complete failure.

[09:35] Paul: Why though?

[09:36] Angie: Because like, I, I only measure myself in terms of the money I earn and the seats I sell. And I, I feel so scared all the time. Like, all the marketing messaging I send out, I feel like I'm spamming people. And I feel like Yeah, I feel like a sellout is how you call it.

[09:58] Paul: Yeah, sellout.

[10:00] Angie: Right. And even though the content I build is definitely like incompeteable in Taiwanese market. You believe deeply in it.

[10:05] Paul: It's like super deep and like people said it was incredible, right? But like your heart just wasn't in that creator journey, are you saying? Right.

[10:13] Angie: But like, I mean, I spent so much time in building a course. Like I work, I work like, I don't know, like 16 hours a day and I sleep like 4 hours a day while we were doing the launch. And so it's impossible to say, okay, I completely move on just because I feel like, oh, actually I don't feel proud of it. So I still hold on to it while doing experiments on the side until we need to run our second cohort. And at that time I'm already in the States. I feel super disconnected from keep creating something only in Chinese while most people who I hang out with or know of in the States do not know the content that I'm creating about.

And I was trying very hard again to try to promote our second cohort. And exactly because I started creating, started to experiment, experimenting with writing online, the abundance feeling of writing creates such a huge contrast of the scarcity of like doing stuff around fitness. And at that time, my co-founder is like, oh, I'm busy too, like let's see how much we can, how many people we can recruit this cohort. I'll try my best, but I don't know what will lead, what this will lead to. And when we didn't get enough signups for the first few weeks, I just gave up. I gave my, when I was starting working with Rob Hardy, he gave me a very good suggestion.

He said, why don't you set deadline to reevaluate if you still want to do the finished stuff next year. For me, that deadline was around January. I think it's January. So that deadline came, it showed up, popped up on my calendar. I look at the signed up and I just told my co-founder, I say like, sorry, I just don't think I can do this anymore. I feel totally disconnected.

And then he said, yeah, I feel the same too. Let's just move on. And then this is just turned into a self-paced course and then not do anything about it. Instead of— I thought I would feel shame. I thought I would feel humiliated when I when I give him this proposal. But when he said yes, I was like, finally, finally, finally, we're moving on.

[12:21] Paul: What? And yeah, what? Why do you think it takes you so long to let go of some of these things? Like, I think one of my strengths is being able to quit a lot of stuff. And I don't know. I don't really know.

I have a hard time understanding why people wait so long doing things.

[12:43] Angie: It took you so much courage to put something like a product, like a sellable product onto the market. And then people, or at least me, put so much of my self-worth onto that product that I launched too. So if I tell people, hey, we are turning to self-paced, that means that I'm declaring I am a failure. That I'm not a successful creator. And I feel, and I think that's why it's so painful for me to think about the word quitting. But the truth is I just feel so much at ease after I really quit.

[13:13] Paul: Nice. You're so hard on yourself too.

[13:16] Angie: I know.

[13:17] Paul: I turned my course into a self-paced course and I ran away from a cohort-based opportunity, which was probably higher, but I sort of always design it around like, okay, I want a simpler life.

[13:35] Angie: I mean, I'm st—

[13:36] Paul: what I always wonder, like, don't you, like, I feel like you always are like reframing what I do. Like the struggles I have is like, I'll pause everything, figure it out. How, how do you filter like observing me and like integrating it into your journey?

[13:52] Angie: I don't, I just have my own narrative. It's amazing how you think your partner is one person until you read their book and then you read your newsletter. Oh, that's what he means when he says that.

[14:05] Paul: And you only read my newsletter if there's a picture of you.

[14:09] Angie: What I do is I open his newsletter, I Ctrl+F to see if there's any Angie mentioned in newsletter, and scroll down to see if there is any picture, and then What side?

[14:23] Paul: So that was all in Taiwan, you abandoning the fitness thing. I spent most of the year writing my book. We moved back to the States in October. We spent a couple months in New York, then we go home for the holidays and, um, eventually move out to Austin. What would— I know like moving to the US was pretty scary for you. What was your imagination of it?

Like, in my mind, I was like, we sort of have to do this. I have a sense that Angie being exposed to like my friends, some of my networks is going to be great for her. I'm also extremely optimistic. I can't even imagine like bad scenarios happening. I'm just like, oh, everything's going to be great. What were you thinking as we were moving to the US?

[15:13] Angie: I said, that's the destiny you choose. That's the fate. Just going to suck it up, baby.

[15:18] Paul: So that's not very optimistic.

[15:21] Angie: It's not. That's the most optimistic version. I can tell you other versions I have.

[15:26] Paul: Well, what were the worst-case scenarios?

[15:30] Angie: We get divorced and I go to travel around Southeast Asia and I become this hippie for the rest of my life.

[15:39] Paul: Yeah, all your worst fears always end up with me abandoning you. And you'll tell me these things and I'm like, are we even fighting? Where does that— I mean, where does that come from? Is that just some of your culture growing up?

[15:55] Angie: No, I think it's just me. Or at least I noticed some types of people are like me who is always like I think like, okay, now I already moved on from the trauma framework, but before I used to think that if you don't get enough love and attention in a certain way as a kid, then you are always trying to move on first to compete with a person that might abandon you so you won't get hurt. And so for me, that's always the mindset I have in dating before I met you. It's like, all right, like I am giving myself out too much, time to cut it off so I won't get hurt. So like when we were dating, I'm always practicing you abandoning me, but that never works. You just wouldn't let me go.

You're like, I'm not going anywhere.

[16:42] Paul: Yeah. So I mean, are you feeling better now? Yeah, I feel better now.

[16:47] Angie: After having a kiddo. Having a kiddo, having— being pregnant is a game changer. I highly recommend everyone to get pregnant.

[16:59] Paul: All right. All right. Let's get to being— well, let's just talk about that now. I think it makes sense to talk about shifting back to the US first, because it was hard. You went all in on applying for jobs and really struggled. You had a lot of early calls applying to tech companies last winter and really just trying to figure out the language of communicating in the US.

What was that like? Like, it was hard to see you go through that. Like, I wanted, I wanted to just like give you part of my brain and like fast track you through this stuff. But I knew like you just had to like get, go through the motions, have a bunch of calls, meet a ton of people. And like you have, and you've come out of the other side of that. What is it, what was it like those first few months looking back?

[17:50] Angie: Community is very important. We will talk about rite of passage later. But the reason— so I think my English level is the same as 7 years ago. It didn't change. But I feel much, much more confident now, as you can probably tell the differences between our previous episode and this episode.

[18:08] Paul: I think you're just as eloquent in the last episode.

[18:11] Angie: According to our friend, I'm very eloquent about my vulnerability, which is still a weird way of describing a person. But I wanted to say that Before I know any creative weirdos in Austin, the only community I have in the States is your family.

[18:28] Paul: Yeah.

[18:29] Angie: And, um, for me, what is successful in a traditional American society, like a mainstream society, or in your family, is to earn a lot of money.

[18:39] Paul: And then my family is filled with a lot of successful knowledge workers working in full-time jobs. I am like the biggest weirdo in my family.

[18:46] Angie: Okay, but like, I thought, I think you have, you have a past because, I mean, you were born in this family and yeah. You are American, so you get to be weird. But I'm not like, I'm not even an immigrant. I'm just like a half-assed immigrant, like in between immigrant and Taiwanese.

[19:02] Paul: And what does that mean? What do you mean?

[19:04] Angie: I'm not an American citizen.

[19:06] Paul: Yeah. But you're not like a full immigrant, you're saying?

[19:09] Angie: Yeah. I mean, citizenship-wise.

[19:11] Paul: Cheap mode by coming in through with my family?

[19:14] Angie: Cheap mode? What do you mean?

[19:15] Paul: I mean, like a little easier. Than like, I mean, you're not doing like the first-gen immigration immigrant thing where you're like just coming with nothing and scrapping by.

[19:24] Angie: I am first-gen, but I don't have to scrap by. That's it. Yeah. So in order to fit into the community of your family, this is your narrative, right?

[19:34] Paul: Nobody's telling you this, right?

[19:36] Angie: I like, I need to find a job. I need to find a corporate job. I need to be able to tell people what company I'm working at. And I'm also just so fed up with like launching, launching something, sending out like 10, 10, 20, 30 emails, get it, get it like a few signups. Like I'm so fed up with like scraping by those creator money. I want to be able to be experience a, a team where I can talk with every day and then be paid a certain amount of salary again.

[20:10] Paul: Yeah.

[20:11] Angie: And that's the only way that I would define myself as successful in the States.

[20:17] Paul: And you applied to tons of jobs and got rejected from nearly all of them, which I think was hard.

[20:26] Angie: Yeah, because like the first question all the recruiters will ask me is, so tell me about your podcasting, like how does it fit into your resume? Or if I refer you to hiring manager, you got to tell them you got to have a story of this 3 years where you wander off from your user research journey and stuff. And it was like super painful for me because they are all sides of me instead of valuing my dedication into my creative journey. I have to frame it in a way that is not a distraction of something else, which is not fair.

[20:59] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. I mean, I've told you this, but you don't ever buy that I struggled. Before I left my job, I kept applying for jobs and like I didn't fit anyone's box. I was like, you're past the consulting, how can you do this?

You don't fit. Like it was all that. And like eventually I had to take my own path, but it was hard seeing you. I just wanted you to get an opportunity with a company or a team. And I'm glad you're pursuing freelancing now because I think that's probably a better path for you because you have such diverse interests and so much to offer. But I— yeah, it sucked seeing you not land a job because I know you would have— you're the fastest learner I've ever seen.

[21:48] Angie: Thank you.

[21:50] Paul: And do you believe me when I say that?

[21:53] Angie: I'm pretty fast.

[21:55] Paul: Like, it's pretty mind-blowing. You level up so quick. And sometimes I'm probably like, challenge you, but I don't know, you are so capable. And it's, it's hard as the partner seeing someone that you believe in so much. I'm wired like this too with people. When I see people struggling who I know are badass, it's like, ah, you just want to like give them stuff you have.

[22:24] Angie: Thank you. You like how comfortably I take your compliment now?

[22:29] Paul: That was good.

[22:30] Angie: Compliment me more. More.

[22:32] Paul: What? Yeah. How have you gotten better at taking compliments? That was hard for you.

[22:41] Angie: So being able to— so people, I think if you're from Chinese culture, you know, like, Taking compliments was never an easy thing. Like, you feel embarrassed and you feel like you're forcing the other person to compliment you, which is a lose-lose situation. So the best strategy of being in like a Chinese culture relationship is don't compliment anyone, don't criticize them. The worst thing you can do is criticize them or compliment in public so that— and then you make them have to deflect your compliments. You're like the worst friend a person can have. Just Just like secretly judge them.

It's totally fine. So that's where I'm coming from. And I think to be able to 100% comfortably accept compliment, you have to be sure of your own existence too. You have to believe in yourself as a person who deserves to be loved and capable of loving other people. And it wouldn't be possible without a community that 100% accepts who you are. I'm building you a road to introduce rite of passage.

[23:45] Paul: Shout out David Perel, who I think has created one of the coolest things. And like, I will forever be like a volunteer promoter of this course because I think he's created something special. I think an interesting way to talk about Rite of Passage is he gave you a lens to take compliments. Their framework and Dave, David and his team, the framework for how they think about feedback. And just like stepping back, like it's so cool to have something like Write of Passage in the world because like it sort of takes a lot of the lessons I don't know how to communicate to somebody else. Like I think I just pick up a lot of this stuff intuitively.

And the, they've created so many frameworks and To me, like, I think it's like an onboard onto like this generous creative internet entrepreneurial US culture. It's sort of like a great way to immigrate into the US culture no matter where you're from. How, how did that experience go for you?

[24:58] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[24:59] Paul: You joined this. This was like 6 months after moving to the US in Austin.

[25:04] Angie: Like 4 months.

[25:05] Paul: Yeah.

[25:06] Angie: Mm-hmm. Um, it was—

[25:10] Paul: you almost didn't join. You were scared too.

[25:12] Angie: Yeah, I was so scared when, when I had a— when I have the opportunity to join Rite of Passage, I was like— I remember we were sitting in, in our apartment in East Austin and Paul was sitting on the sofa and I was like, I was like half lying on a sofa and then half like rolling on the ground. I was like, I don't want Join? Like, what am I doing? I'm going to speak English with other English creators. Like, I'm just going to shame myself to hell if I join this course. But like, that's what my brain was telling me.

But my gut was telling me like, you better join this course.

[25:47] Paul: I knew you were going to join.

[25:48] Angie: Well, I mean, I want to join because I don't want to disappoint David. And that's a very Chinese perspective now I think of too. Like, who cares? Who cares if I join or not?

[25:59] Paul: I remember you saying this, like, um, cause you would talk to them, you had like a conversation about joining their team and it probably wasn't the right time on your journey to do something like that. Um, but yeah, you were like, David would be so insulted if I don't.

[26:15] Angie: I'm like, I don't think David is going to spend any time thinking about this. Wait, I didn't tell you something that I can tell you now.

[26:26] Paul: What?

[26:26] Angie: So like, I think a lot of times when you introduce me freelance opportunity, like I got scared not because I feel like I'm incapable of doing it, but because I feel like if I fail, then I will bring you so much shame.

[26:40] Paul: But I don't care.

[26:41] Angie: Yeah, I know. And now I think, okay, I'll probably focus and carry this. Like this shame thing is so— this shame like coming from Chinese culture, it's so ingrained in me.

[26:50] Paul: Yeah, I think the default assumption Here is like everyone, I, we were talking about this the other day. Everyone sort of takes care of themselves. So like if you give someone advice, you expect them to do what's best for them. Like you don't, like you don't give someone advice as like a weight over their entire life. And if they're, they screw up 10 years from now, it's all your fault and you are shamed for this forever. I think that's one of the good things about US culture is very loose and nobody expects what you say to be a weight over them.

So more about the course. You get in the course, you were like terrified to start sharing your ideas, but then you share, you, you publish and you get helpful feedback from people you like put on a pedestal. You've written about this. I'll link up to your article, which is awesome. But you put these people on a pedestal. They're so much better than me.

They give you amazing feedback and you're you had to deal with this cognitive dissonance of like, maybe I am pretty good.

[27:51] Angie: I think let's give the listener more context about Write of Passage. So Write of Passage is a 5-week intense online writing course. It's a cohort-based course, meaning that you will be with a group of people, hundreds of people. Yeah, you'll be with hundreds of people. In my cohort, we have 300 people. And then the way they structure the course is Monday, you have to publish a draft of something you write about and then you receive feedback from the whole community.

And then on Wednesday you publish your final stuff. And so I think like, an organization is not equal to a community. Organizations, you don't have to be vulnerable. You can go to a meetup, meetup.com meetup and then just like, doesn't have to share anything vulnerable and then just leave the group anytime you don't feel belonging. There's nothing, invested. You're not emotionally invested.

You don't feel like they 100% accept you. But in Rite of Passage, it's like the way they structure their mentor session, they structure their prompt, just naturally make you feel like you want to share the vulnerable stuff of you.

[28:58] Paul: Yeah, like permission to, to be vulnerable.

[29:02] Angie: Yeah, permission to be, to be.

[29:03] Paul: They do, they do a really impressive job of like creating the container for that, a safe space.

[29:09] Angie: And I think like that's something that I never experienced, not even like, not even in Taiwan. I never experienced the States and never experienced that in Taiwan. And like being able to show the vulnerable part of me and still see, like share with imperfect English and still be celebrated and be accepted as friends. And then just seeing how the whole community is cheering for you. It's the first time I realized like, oh wow, like I can still be the weird self. Like I don't have to be the corporate self to be a part of a really cool community.

That was mind-blowing for me.

[29:48] Paul: Yeah. What— so what do you think? I think it's an interesting community. It sort of like creates status for being brave and being vulnerable and being weird and shipping. Which you did, and I think it was hard for you to ship those articles, but they sort of unlocked something in you. I saw after that, like, you— that really changed your behavior.

And you started, like, I think you, for the first time, like, you'd always be like, I can't make money. And I was like, well, you don't really go after anything like freelancing. But after that, you were like very open to opportunities. I had a friend Will Bachman, who like had this opportunity for like a Chinese speaker and you're like freaked out, but you're like, screw it, I'm all in, I'm going for it. And that kind of like opened the door to, oh, maybe freelancing could be a thing.

[30:40] Angie: Mm-hmm. I think because the way I feel like I can be vulnerable in this community, I go all out. Like I don't have to hide certain part of myself. I don't think that my English will be a problem when I'm communicating with people. So I started hosting events within the community. And the act of like being just student to event host is such a huge empowerment.

[31:03] Paul: Yeah.

[31:04] Angie: For people like me who are like from other countries and studying, I mean, living in the States. And so like the experience of like working with other creators and hosting stuff like drawing challenge, it's such a simple act, but it made me feel so empowered and made me feel like, oh wait, I'm capable of doing stuff with other people in the States too. So you encouraged me to put out a Twitter thread about what I was doing before. And I think like a huge reason— so like Write of Passage is not just a writing course. It teaches you everything about being a creator on a creative journey. So one thing that Dave talked about is like personal monopoly.

I call it my personal thriving kingdom. Basically, the weird wonky part of you could be your real strength. And for me, like when I was applying for corporate job, like, I always have to think about, like, okay, how do I play down this curious podcast painting side of me to fit into their narrative? But now I realize that actually on the internet, people still value this weird— like, this all parts of me. So I can just put out a— I call it an unconventional resume on my website. And knowing that there will be other creators who really value this different weird skills I have or curiosity I have.

And so that's why I was willing to put out a Twitter thread without feeling that I have to hide part of me.

[32:29] Paul: Yeah, that's awesome. And people loved it. You've had a lot of people reaching out to you based on that.

[32:39] Angie: But yeah, then you were talking about the first thread or the current one.

[32:43] Paul: I mean, it's the same web page, right? And you keep updating it. You just keep putting everything you're doing on there and you're not trying to hide or fit into a box.

[32:52] Angie: Yeah, what I realized is like also after I got my first few freelance experiences, I know I'm not a freelancer who has been like going on this like huge scale project or having like 20 years of freelance experience, but I have some experiences. I have something I learned when I, when I, um, doing that thread at first, I was like, I have to be an expert because like I think there is a certain way of talking on Twitter, like you're offering, and here's what I learned, here's what you can get from me. It's a very authoritative voice.

[33:27] Paul: So I'm very male energy on Twitter.

[33:30] Angie: Yeah. And so I was like, I don't want to be like that because like I'm still learning on my freelance journey. So like Paul was telling me what I can write, but I write my own version. Like I want to write a vulnerable version but still tell people that I learned something. I want to write something that is real Angie. So if they see it, they won't feel like So if they see and they like, they still contact me, that means that they like my energy, they like my way of approaching the world and the things.

And then so I, I was kind of surprised when I got lots of contacts after I put out the thread. And I think like the, the weird— the thing about being freelancing, at least is what I learned now, is like people have like creative— people have all sorts of ideas of leveling up their stuff, but they don't have a recruiter to like help them post something, a position on like I don't know, like LinkedIn.com or Indeed.com. And so like, they— but if they, they see someone that, that is pop up on the internet, on a Twitter, that they might have a good vibe working with, then they are willing to try. So it's really just— when Paul told me, when you told me that you gotta put yourself out there, was that bullshit? But now I tell my friend, you gotta put yourself out there. Give me a Twitter thread, I'll help you share it.

[34:45] Paul: Yeah, I think we often look to— we don't want— we're sort of scared to show up as ourselves, so we look at what other people have done as what we're supposed to do, right? And so we look at the most successful versions of things. We look at people sharing online, and like, to be honest, there's a lot of cringe on Twitter of people posting these authoritative— here's 5 things you need to be to be successful. I don't really vibe with a lot of those people. I'm more just like, here's what I'm thinking about. And I just do that a lot and it's sort of easy for me and it kind of maps to how my brain works.

But people are desperate for the weirdos. What I found increasingly, they want people who aren't going to play games. Yeah. So now you've sort of like stumbled into becoming a freelancer for course creators. I think you're really inspired by Write of Passage and want to like help transform people through like live experiences, community-based things. It's so scary for you though.

I mean, talk to me about what you're up to now.

[35:57] Angie: Like today, I was trying to summarize what I need from a client. And then I think like the challenge of being a second language, like English as second language speaker is like there will be more back and forth than I expected of like confirming what's the pain point of client and what I need, what resources are we collecting right now. But once we pass the confirmation page, like that's my time to like really just go all out and like shine and like helping them build a cool cohort-based course or live events.

[36:34] Paul: I think this is a hard thing. I mean, freelancing, it was hard for me. You may not believe that, but it's hard.

[36:39] Angie: And you see that now I'm stuttering. I'm trying to put on another persona when I'm sharing my stuff again.

[36:45] Paul: Yeah, you don't need to. Yeah, it's hard. It's— there is a certain dance of like demonstrating you understand people's problems and could propose things to move things forward. Um, but at the end of the day, people also just want to work with humans. And like, that's what I do with like my corporate clients. I just like unapologetically energetically show up in like a t-shirt.

And like, if they don't like that, they don't have to work with me. But yeah, let's— so let's talk about the new chapter. Talk to me about getting pregnant. We wanted to have a kid. Really excited about this. Talk to me about what that shift was like for you.

[37:31] Angie: Mm-hmm. I want to bring us back to the day of I found out I'm pregnant. So we were—

[37:41] Paul: July 4th, US holiday.

[37:43] Angie: July 4th, yeah. We would just finish a road trip in California and I was super exhausted. I like fall asleep all the time. I was like, man, this road trip is more taxing when you're 30, huh? And so I was in Connecticut, but at that time I was also like, there is a chance that I might be pregnant. So I was like, I'm gonna just play chill.

When everyone is going on the parade, I will go with them to the town parade and I'll come back and I'll just like casually take out my pregnancy test and casually test it because it's highly likely that nothing will happen. I don't wanna put too much expectation on it. But like the thing is like after the road trip, the day we landed Connecticut, the first day at 6:00 AM, I woke up, I was like, I'm not gonna wait. So I ran into the bathroom. And then I felt like I found out I'm pregnant. And then so like I went running to the room and Paul was waking me up by me because I was so excited.

I jumped onto the bed and I was like shaking him and then I say like, I'm going to be a mommy. I'm going to be a mommy. And he was like, how can you prove it? He's still half asleep. And so I showed him the test and he was like, what's this?

[38:52] Paul: I was so out of it. Well, I—

[38:55] Angie: It took him like 10 minutes to like believe me.

[38:57] Paul: I haven't seen any of your pregnancy tests at that point. Because that's true, they were all negative and you didn't show me anything. So like, it's like a COVID test, 5 AM. I'm like, what the hell is this? Um, yeah, it's, it's weird though because like, I mean, things are clearly shifting in your body and it obviously nothing has changed in my body. It's such a beautiful experience.

Um, Yeah, you— or the woman.

[39:28] Angie: I think I'm the lucky one. I do experience some like emotional— how do you call it?

[39:35] Paul: Like emotional ups and downs.

[39:38] Angie: Emotional ups and downs.

[39:40] Paul: Like hormonal stuff in the first few months, you mean?

[39:44] Angie: Yeah, I'll remember the term later. But yeah, I do experience that maybe just a few days for my first trimester.

[39:51] Paul: Morning sickness.

[39:52] Angie: No, not morning sickness. But— Hormone swing, hormonal swings. But like, in general, I'm in such a good mental state because compared to before pregnancy, and I think a lot of— probably a lot of women can resonate. Like, PMS is freaking killing me. Not the part that it hurts, it's okay, but the part that every, every 7 days in a month I will be reminded that how crap— like, what a crappy human I am. Like, I'm a failure because of the hormonal swings, like, right before menstruation, I will feel like no matter how much ambition, ambition I have for the first 3 weeks, how much work I did, I'm just a loser for the first week.

And if you experience that every month, there's really a firm narrative just rooted in your head, like you are just a— like deep down you're a loser because you'll experience that very soon again, no matter how ambitious you are. But being pregnant, there is no menstrual cycle. I just feel ambitious. Ambitious all the time, and it feels freaking awesome. And I think at the beginning I was like, I think I'm having a boy because I feel so masculine now. Like, I feel like I'm kicking ass in the world.

I'm just like naturally a badass, and that's what a boy feel like.

[41:06] Paul: We can have badass women, right?

[41:08] Angie: And so like, when I realized I'm having a girl, and I was like, that's what being a woman should feel like without all this hormonal shit. Like, we should be like this. This is our natural state. And I think that really helps a lot on my freelancing and like creative journey as well. Just being confident all the time.

[41:27] Paul: Yeah. And so, I mean, we have a very weird approach to life. I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding it, but we both have like designed our lives around flexibility and having space to do like creative projects and stuff. How are you thinking about like You're, I feel like you have a lot of pressure on yourself that you're putting on you to like have work figured out before the baby comes. 'Cause I think you've realized you like challenge, you like some form of work. Maybe you don't want a full-time job, but like part-time consulting work could be working for you.

So how are you thinking about that with like a few months left?

[42:08] Angie: That's the thing I will actually wanna discuss with you next. I actually was going to Google like, How to do, how to, how to plan your freelance journey as a pregnant mom. I wanted to Google that.

[42:21] Paul: I don't think there's a roadmap. I think you need to figure this out on your own. I, well, I think like it's just hard, right? Both of us are, um, not, we don't have cozy jobs with like paternity and maternity leave. That's like very like paycheck world, right? They design their lives around this certain break that a company pays for and you go back and you have benefits.

But like, we can sort of flex up and down our work. I think both of us have sort of decided, okay, like, I think for me, like, I definitely want to take like the first month and see where I can be useful, find our footing. But my work's super flexible. I can like up and down. I can respond to emails still. But for you, like, you're like right at the edge of like a lot of stuff taking off.

It feels like to me. Which is probably frustrating to like not have that more settled. But I think you're going to be okay. Because like, I don't know, we can use daycare. I can watch the kid. I've sort of built my life around being very available.

[43:26] Angie: I mean, there's definitely certain like fear in me that I feel like I don't make full-time mom a choice. I'm a full-time mom because I have no choice and I'm afraid that will come true.

[43:40] Paul: Well, you have like 7 people trying to hire you right now.

[43:44] Angie: But still, like, I don't know, like when all my other preggo moms are telling me, oh, like, I am so glad that my company is paying me like this much when I'm going off to give birth to the baby. I'm just feel like, what about me? And like, will I be— I think the part of me is like, I love babies so much, and I can fully imagine— I can totally imagine that I will be the, like, attachment type of mom who cannot let go of the baby even just one second. And I don't want to be that version of Mon. Like, I want to be able to thrive. Doesn't matter if it's in a company or, like, or, or in a creative team.

Like, I want— like, it's almost like I want to divide device, a mechanism to force me to separate me from my baby. And but like, I think now it's leaning toward like a little bit unhealthy kind, because like every day I'm still thinking that I have to get a corporate job so then I will be forced.

[44:42] Paul: You're not even applying for corporate jobs.

[44:45] Angie: Every day I was thinking about it still. That's my shoot brain. Listening to your heart, not your shoot.

[44:50] Paul: Don't, don't listen to shoot. Um, Yeah, but I think you're putting a lot of pressure on this in the short term. I would not bet against you over the next 10 years.

[45:01] Angie: Thank you.

[45:03] Paul: And also, like, I think, like, being a full-time mother, like, the thing is, like, you're not never going to be a mother as your only thing. You— I leave you alone for 4 minutes and you're playing an instrument. You're doing capoeira, you're working out, you're painting stuff. You have all these interests. Those are never going away. It's just really a narrative around money for you.

[45:30] Angie: Mhm. Yeah, it's really, it's really not about—

[45:33] Paul: to me, like, all those things are worth doing. Who the hell cares if you make money or not? It just matters if we together have enough.

[45:40] Angie: I mean, I care, I care when my mom say like, so you let Paul does all the work, isn't it too hard for him?

[45:45] Paul: I don't work that hard.

[45:47] Angie: No, I mean like, yeah, that, this, the whole—

[45:52] Paul: people have such a hard time understanding how I orient towards work. Most people's scripts of work are like, work is struggle, work is suffering. Like my mother's even said to me, like, like I'm like, oh, I can just like take a day off whenever, help out, like go help my brother move and stuff like that. She's like, you should just like work more. As if like me sitting at a desk is going to like produce more income. Like a lot of what I do is like breaks and then creative work, short bursts of energy.

It's a different way of like thinking about work. Like work is not this struggle. It's like, it's everything.

[46:32] Angie: I think like a part of me is like, I want to be continued to be challenged and growing even after I have baby too. So it doesn't matter if it's creative project or like, or like paid work. Like, I don't want to not push myself. Like, right now I think, I think that maybe for art I'm not pushing myself. Like, I know I could be learning and growing, but I just keep doing the same thing that I was doing. And like, I, I don't want to for any reason for not growing.

[47:00] Paul: But that's, that's like, are you serious? That's a concern? Like Do you observe what, how you spend your time? You're learning stuff all the time. You're literally, you're doing NLP coaching. You're hosting Drawing for Creators events.

Um, you're free, you're freelancing for, for people. Um, you're doing like fitness stuff. Um, you're doing capoeira, like you're doing all these things.

[47:28] Angie: That's the burden of having a super optimistic optimistic, positive partner. They make you too content.

[47:36] Paul: Why? What do you mean too content?

[47:38] Angie: Push me.

[47:40] Paul: No, but you see pushing as like shaming you. I don't know how to do that.

[47:46] Angie: I think I feel like— I think I feel pushing— I think I see pushing and growth equals to feeling like shameful. Oh my God, that's so unhealthy. I need to change that.

[47:59] Paul: Yeah. And like, you're already sort of doing the things you need to be doing. Like everyone I know who's like actually doing things they care about is like pretty happy with that setup. You just sort of have to like trust that it's okay to be doing those things. And that's where we get all our narratives and stuff.

[48:21] Angie: I want to share with you one thing and I want to ask you a question too. So remember I ordered this Life Calendar by Tim Urban. Yeah, where you have like, we have rows and grids of every week you live till you're 90.

[48:35] Paul: Yeah, one block is one week, right?

[48:37] Angie: Right. So, um, I ordered that when I was in Taipei before I quit my job and become a trainer. That's a way of like reminding me how little time I have in my life to be fucking around in the job that I don't like.

[48:51] Paul: Yeah.

[48:52] Angie: And so like That really pushed me. That really made me go all in in my career transition. And then so I ordered that to push myself to apply for corporate job again. That's why you bought it again? I spent like $50 to push me. I was like, just by looking at calendar, I would know that I have no time to fuck around.

Listen to me. And so I will immediately land a corporate job that pay good money and I'll feel confident about myself. And but what happened when I really see the calendar now is like, I was like, holy shit, I don't have lots of time left in my life. I need to do something meaningful. I need to do something that really is worthwhile doing. I need to do something that let me thrive.

[49:37] Paul: But you have things you're doing that are— you're like on your way to like all these things that you are doing.

[49:44] Angie: Right, and that made me realize that these things that I'm doing right now is really worthwhile. What I'm saying, that is a huge contrast, like these, the same calendar, different stage of life, different reflection. So we have 4 more minutes before I go on to my next potential client call, and I want to ask you, it's— I want to tell you, it's been incredible to see you be more ambitious in your work. Oh my God, I want to cry. I just want to say, like before I feel so cliché. I cried on podcast.

Donate link, donate link after the podcast. Why are you crying too? No, just like when we first met and I know like how like personal time is important for you and then you don't want to like— you don't want to go back to the previous Paul and then I know you always have the fear of like you have to give up the life you have now, your leisure, your time of wandering around for something else and then have to work on some stuff you don't like. And then so I feel like there is a— there was a stage of where I see potential in you. You can grow your business, your strategy, your Pathless Path, but you're unwilling to hire people. But after we start having baby, you go all out and all the experiment.

You are super ambitious.

[51:02] Paul: And then has that been— was that a shift for me, you think? I don't know, I maybe unconsciously did that.

[51:07] Angie: I don't know, you just start— you just start experimenting with hiring people, and then you're really committed to producing videos and other stuff. And I'm just like I admire you so much and I'm super grateful for what you do for the family too. Thank you. So what has been, what was the shift like for you after becoming a dad-to-be?

[51:27] Paul: I think it was a couple of things. I think one was being in Austin and meeting other weird creators who are like fully alive and connected to their work and seeing them be ambitious in a way I think about ambition, but seeing they weren't like blowing up their life. And I was like, okay, maybe I can push a little harder. That was definitely the thread at the beginning of the year. I think others were signals from the universe. People seem to like my book and I'm like, okay, maybe I should pay attention to this.

Also, yeah, I think I became more aware of time after you became pregnant because time is precious. If I can optimize and spend my time wisely and make faster decisions instead of dwelling on things for months, I can just hire someone, take action, test it. Move on. That means more time with our daughter.

[52:17] Angie: No, that's cute.

[52:19] Paul: And yeah, it's been really hard for me. Early on, I was so scared of creating another job for myself, and I was scared of ambition. Um, I was scared of asking for help too. I had this, like, I need to figure everything out on my own, like it's shameful to ask for help, and like I really tried to lean against that this year and like the universe has rewarded me. I think I've just given a lot to a lot of people and maybe that's paying off. I don't know.

But yeah, it's, I also just, I don't want you to have to take a shitty corporate job.

[53:00] Angie: It could be a good corporate job.

[53:01] Paul: I'm better at making money.

[53:03] Angie: I mean, you can be thriving in many different possible things in life.

[53:06] Paul: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

[53:09] Angie: But yeah, I think seeing our friends in Austin who are like thriving and not overworked themselves and just having like a way awesomer life than I could imagine by working so hard too. And I was just like, wow, I didn't know that's a possibility. And that motivated me to work very hard too.

[53:25] Paul: Yeah. I think it's unique when you've spent years—

[53:28] Angie: Oh, sorry. That's my Vipassana alarm.

[53:31] Paul: When you've spent years suffer sacrificing your soul in jobs you don't love for payoffs in the future because that's what everyone else is doing. It is hard to trust that you can actually like your work. So I think that was a big shift for me.

[53:49] Angie: Well, it's been a good conversation.

[53:53] Paul: Awesome. Let's do another one before 2 years. Shout out to Valerie Zhang, our biggest fan who's been asking for this interview. Yeah. Shout out, Valerie. If you want to check out Angie's stuff, angiecreates.io.

She is taking freelance clients. Also, if somebody wants to pay for maternity leave, she's also open to that. But yeah.

[54:18] Angie: I mean, you want to experiment with this, like us just chatting. Yeah. So if you—

[54:24] Paul: Give us questions below.

[54:25] Angie: Yeah.

[54:26] Paul: Drop them. I was lighter, more playful this time, right?

[54:30] Angie: Drop them.

[54:32] Paul: All righty.

[54:33] Angie: All righty.

[54:34] Paul: Adios.

[54:35] Angie: Adios. Bye-bye.