#129 Friendly Ambitious Nerd World-Building - Visakan Veerasamy on Long-Orbit Friendships, Preemptive Defensiveness, "Hot Streaks," Writing A Book, Making $1000 for one copy & Negative Comments

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today, I am welcoming back Visakan Veerasamy. Excited to chat with you again. Um, this is going to be a follow-up interview. Our second interview.

Our first conversation goes into your path, a lot of the stuff around you quitting your job, becoming a freelancer, how you were thinking about that. Definitely check that out if you want to go deeper on Visa. He's got a bunch of other podcasts out there as well. Welcome back to the now-renamed Pathless Path podcast, Visa.

[01:41] Visakan Veerasamy: All right. Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. Congrats on the book. I keep seeing people talking about it on Twitter. It's very nice.

[01:47] Paul: You too, man. I think I went through like quickly. I, to be honest, like this year I just haven't read many books and like books in like my world. I don't know if you've experienced a similar thing. Like I, I, I like tried to avoid like all similar books in my genre and just like went in weird rabbit holes. How about you?

[02:14] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, you know, I remember we once were both in the same Google Doc because we were both being interviewed for the same thing. And, you know, I enjoyed how it felt like we were in the same kind of space, but on each of our own journeys. And I also feel like, you know, with some of my other friends that I've been familiar with for years, it's like I see all their tweets for such a long period of time. That when I read their stuff, it's nice, but I feel like I already kind of know them and I don't necessarily need like that introduction, that like secondary— I mean, it's not secondary, right? But like, I guess I try to prioritize reading things that feel outside of that. Yeah, for sure.

I often find that Yeah, you know, there's a lot of spaces where people gather to find like-minded people, which is good and nice, but like I'm always focused on reading. I wouldn't say focused, but like, I think we are similar in that front, right? Like you don't need to see more of the thing that you're already familiar with.

[03:26] Paul: Yeah. So I think you introduced this great term, long orbit friendships. I kind of sense where we're like long orbit friends. We haven't really had a conversation in 3 years. We talked in the fall.

[03:42] Visakan Veerasamy: Right. Yeah.

[03:43] Paul: We talked in the fall of 2019. Now it's been 4 years. Yeah, it's crazy, right? I think this was like your first, like, I'm now going to do podcasts. And I was like one of those first 5.

[03:57] Visakan Veerasamy: Yes.

[03:57] Paul: Yes. But yeah, it's so cool to see people, like, I don't know how else to say it, but like in the game, right? And like, you're on a similar path. And like, I think the cool thing you captured with this phrase is like, we don't really need to say a lot of stuff. It's like, yeah, I kind of know what Visa is going through. And like, if the principles you're putting out there, I feel like we're playing a similar game in terms of like kind of taking what I call like the slow and stupid path of like, not optimizing or maximizing in the short term.

But yeah, tell me more about like long orbit friendships.

[04:37] Visakan Veerasamy: Right. I don't know to what degree I'm like naturally or innately wired for that, or that I just seem to like it. I feel like it's quite literary, if that makes sense. Like if you read a lot of books as a kid, like there's something about that style of correspondence. It's kind of memoir-esque, like, you know, even just reading about how people used to write like long letters to each other and it would take months to arrive or weeks or whatever. And there was something about that, like consolidation of these long intervals of, oh, since we last spoke, I now have children and they are so big or whatever.

And I always liked that. And I've always had a little bit of a distaste for, oh, I'm meeting my friends again next week, and, or like, the same people I met yesterday, and nothing new has happened since, and we're just hanging out. Like, that— so I used to hang out with a group of friends as teenagers like that, where we would meet every single day. And within months, there's nothing left to say. You're just there. And it was all right.

But I think we all overdid it for us, or at least I felt like I was overdoing it to the point where it's almost like I was using that daily habit to avoid the work that I wanted to be doing or avoid, you know, like the expeditions I wanted to be going on. Yeah, so maybe that's one way I frame it. It's like, there's definitely one of my phrases is that like, you know, some lifestyles are more like sitcoms and others are like more like adventures. And neither is better or worse than the other, right? And I think people would think that one is better than the other, like fall into a kind of trap. But yeah, I think long orbit friendships are very much like these adventurers meeting at taverns, you know, kind of like a fantasy mindset.

[06:35] Paul: I feel like in the digital world, like creating is such a vulnerable act, right? And if you're going to like dare to create stuff, you're basically like putting your vulnerability out there in public. So Like, you get to see, like, the good and bad sides of people. And I think a cool thing for me is like, you're kind of following people and also like rooting for them. And like, the longer you're on such a journey, you kind of know like where people are. I think that's been the cool thing for me.

Like, I'm 5 and a half years into like self-employment now and I can see like this person's at year 2. All right. I know like what they're probably going through. They're starting to level up.

[07:15] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[07:15] Paul: And it's like, hell yes, hell yes. I love seeing that. Or like shedding cynicism is often a common stage that people have to go through. And I went through and it's like, oh, I love rooting for that. And then like you can check in with people and just tell them you love what they're up to.

[07:32] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, and I love having multiple friends who are at multiple stages along the path because you can see someone who's like, they got the brand new, just quit my job vibes. And then there's like, I think about like 2 years in, there's this bit of, oh no, what am I doing really? You know, like, is this going to go anywhere? Like, there's all these phases. And yeah, I do feel like a kinship and yeah, I root for them as well. And, you know, at some level you could say it's self-serving in that each person who makes it on their own The Pathless Path, right?

They kind of light the way for everyone else who's also doing it. And like, you know, the more people are doing it, the less weird it is to explain what we're doing. Yeah, but at the same time, you know, I think even if I weren't on the path myself, like if I was still at my job, I would be so grateful to see all the people who are trying, right? Just to know that there's possibility out there. Yeah, so it's very beautiful.

[08:33] Paul: That's pretty rare. Um, like, yeah, many people in jobs are not comfortable with what we're up to.

[08:41] Visakan Veerasamy: Um, that's true.

[08:42] Paul: Do you think that stance toward, of like rooting toward people, like for people, can be learned? Like, I, I think about this a lot. Like, I don't even know if it's like, I sense it's like somewhat innate.

[08:57] Visakan Veerasamy: Um, yeah, I think, yeah, I think there's a whole like bell curve, right? And so probably most people are like kind of indifferent, but you don't really hear from them. They're like, oh, cool, whatever. And then there are people at both extremes. And like, so there are the people. So even with people at like, let's say all the people who are working at Walmart, let's say, or like some large company where there's like 100,000 people.

Like, so probably like 80,000, yeah, whatever. And then there'll be like 1,000 who they are supposed to be wild and free and they're not. And they want to be. And when they see someone else who's like that, they're like, ah, one day, someday my time will come. And then at the other extreme, there are the people who are like threatened by it because they don't want to think about it and they're uncomfortable or whatever. And yeah, you'll tend to hear from the most vocal extremes on both ends, I think.

And that can be a challenge, like psychologically, to just live with feedback like that you receive from Yeah, I got a term from you I put in my book, preemptive defensiveness.

[09:59] Paul: And yeah, I was like full-on preemptive defensive my first year after quitting my job. And I think the reason is I had no idea what I was doing. Right. So when you have no idea what you're doing and you're deeply insecure and people challenge you, you're aggressively like, well, it's clearly obvious you should be doing this. And it's like, Now I'm like, live and let live. Like, I don't really care.

[10:27] Visakan Veerasamy: Nice. Yeah, I think so. I was just witnessing another one of my friends just tweeting about his version of this yesterday where he was like, and not even this big thing, but like a smaller version of the thing, which is like he was just defensive on Twitter, on main. Like he said something, somebody else said something, and then he was defending himself. And then he was reflecting like, I don't know, the next day or a few hours later. He's reflecting that, oh, me being defensive about my thing, like, kind of isn't a very good case for my thing.

Like, it makes me look bad or whatever. And the thing is, I think everyone has to go through that phase. Like, it's like a threshold crossing where it's so natural and human to want to defend yourself and to want to explain yourself and to correct a misunderstanding and so on. But when you are on this path, you, I don't know if I'll say quickly learn, but like, I think there's multiple people all seem to realize this at different stages or whatever, where the best defense is just continuing to do what you love in a gentle and free way. And that gentleness does not come easy. Like you have to, yeah, so it's tricky and not everyone makes it.

And so And I think part of what we can do for each other is support each other in that gentleness, sort of. Yeah, it's such a trip. And I also think that in some ways it's like, and you gain status when you learn to do it. It's interesting. It's like when you are still nervous and uncertain and defensive, that's like, at whatever threshold you're at, like that's the human response. And it kind of constrains you.

It's kind of like a crabs in a bucket thing in a subtle way. It's like by people saying shit about you or your path or just expressing their own frustrations, and then you respond to that directly in a non-enlightened way, you then get trapped in that frame, like, oh, should I quit? Should I not? And when you zoom out and you're like, oh, you should do what you think is right for yourself. This is what I think is right for me. Enjoy yourself.

When you kind of get out of that frame, you become more persuasive, right? You become nicer to be around. People recognize that it takes like grace and magnanimousness to embody that. And that makes people want to hang out with you. It makes people want to listen to you. But it takes some courage and some reflection and grace to get to that point.

[13:10] Paul: Yeah, I think— which is, you know, I, but I think a lot of it comes from just like not knowing what you're doing, but like it literally never goes away.

[13:20] Visakan Veerasamy: That's true.

[13:20] Paul: Like now when I know, all right, I don't, I was just talking with my wife about this. I'm like, I don't really know how 2023 is going to go. I have no idea.

[13:30] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, we don't.

[13:31] Paul: But I've gone through the not knowing so many times that it's like, oh, you just put your head down, do the work you like and just keep going. And that just like, do that enough times and you're just humbled. And you just stop defending it because it's like, there's nothing to defend because you don't know what you're doing either.

[13:52] Visakan Veerasamy: Correct. Yeah. Oh, and yeah, so very often, you can agree with the letter of a disagreement without agreeing with the spirit or the letter of a statement, right? So somebody will be like, yeah, so they'll be like, oh no, we have no idea what's going to happen. And then we're like, yeah, we have no idea what's going to happen. You're agreeing with the statement, but you don't agree with implicit in that statement is, and therefore we should all freak out and we should all panic.

And you'd be like, no, I don't think so. And funnily, you might, the other, and getting to that point is challenging, right? Because the instinct is to buy into the frame that's being presented without questioning it or without thinking about it. So even if you are disagreeing at the first level, so you're like, so somebody says, oh no, we should be freaking out. And then you're like, 'No, we shouldn't be freaking out.' Yeah. Sorry.

Yeah. So it's like you're disagreeing, but you have bought into the frame of stress. So now we're both stressed, even though we are on different sides of the agreement. We're both stressed. So you've agreed with the stress, whereas you can agree with the utterance, like, 'Oh yeah, we should be freaking out,' but you're smiling and laughing as you're saying it. So it's like a higher-level disagreement.

And that is— when you learn to do that, I think you can be very playful and it's just a whole new way of being.

[15:10] Paul: Yeah, if you quit your job and do your own thing, you'll have plenty of practice because I think Singapore is very similar to the US. Like the US does have its entrepreneurial corners and they're amazing, but it does have a strong conformist vibe.

[15:27] Visakan Veerasamy: And I was always so surprised to hear that. You know, I guess I bought into the PR and like the movies, like Hollywood. It's like, oh, Americans are supposed to be like mavericks and, you know, like do whatever they want and don't care what other people think. And then I read up about like, I mean, I encountered like all those, I mean, just scrolling online, right? You see what people are obsessed about what other people think. You're like, oh, okay, Americans are humans too, I guess.

[15:50] Paul: Yeah. Eric Fromm had some interesting writing about this. Have you read Escape from Freedom?

[15:56] Visakan Veerasamy: I haven't read that one, but I did once, I did read his book about love. And when I was working on my book, I was going through a whole bunch of his quotes. So I think I read a bunch of it, but not the book itself. Yeah.

[16:09] Paul: His argument was basically that like, okay, you give people freedom, but that is so overwhelming that people then need to like either follow a leader. This was his argument. Like in Germany, people were following Nazism. In Italy, people were following fascists. And in the US, he's like, they're doing the same thing. They're just creating, like, they're conforming.

They're like obsessed with like what other people are doing. And the only path out of it is basically to like really reflect and define your own like positive vision, like for something instead of just escaping responsibility.

[16:51] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[16:52] Paul: Yeah.

[16:52] Visakan Veerasamy: So my Twitter bio and like one of my recurring talking points, I retweet the same thing over and over again, is focus your time and energy on what you want to see more of. Or more simply, just focus on what you want. And it's so simple, but it's quite radical because people aren't comfortable doing it. Because implicit in that is you have to take responsibility for what you want. And it's much easier to— so in the current news of the past couple of days is that Lex Fridman tweeted a list of books he wants to read, and then people are mad about it, or they are like, It feels like people are just inventing reasons to have a discourse about it. And I'm like, you don't need to care.

You can just do what you want. And if you want to read, you can encourage people to read. You can just talk about your favorite books, right? But that takes sticking your neck out. Like you said earlier that being a creative online is an act of vulnerability. It's always just so much easier to say, oh, what that guy is doing is not quite right.

Sure, but what are you doing? And even that, so there's like a Nietzsche quote from like, you know, Nietzsche was like in the 1800s where he was like, I wish to be a yes-sayer. You know, I want to say yes to what I love and what I think is great. And I don't even want to say no to the things that I don't want. You know, because even then you're like, again, you're in that frame of, oh, everyone shouldn't be talking about X. Well, you just brought up X again.

You got to be saying, I want to do Y, Y is what I care about. Everyone check out Y. And it's a more fulfilling, profitable, happy, it's better in every way except you have to follow your own heart or your own, you know, whatever you think is right. And that's scary to people.

[18:33] Paul: Yeah. And like getting to there might take years. And I think that's the thing people struggle with. The internet is the greatest place in the world to be against things.

[18:44] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, that's true.

[18:46] Paul: But being against things is an end, right? It's like, it's clearly defined. All you need to do to join the against movement is just be against X.

[18:57] Visakan Veerasamy: That's it.

[18:59] Paul: It's the easiest club to join in the world. But like, before something might literally take, um, years.

[19:08] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. And yet, you know, so there's like, there's pros and cons to it, right? So while being against something is like immediate relevance, immediate, you get to participate immediately and other people seem to agree or disagree. You don't really get like alignment of values, right? Like so common enemies, you have like, you're pointing in the same direction, but you don't really know anything about the guy next to you, right? And you can't really, build lasting kinship on that front, right?

So like, you can have two people who both hate something and they might be in the same vicinity repeatedly year after year and they'd be like, oh yeah, I know that guy, he hates the same thing I do. But like, you know, they can't show up for each other on a more personal level than that because they don't know what each other is for. And they can try and, you know, make some assumptions, but they will find out that some of those assumptions are wrong and If they're both disagreeable people, they're going to find that whatever they have not in common is going to be a source of conflict for them. And like they have trained themselves to fight. So they're going to fight over that. And that's the curse of, I would say, being like a belligerent, disagreeable person.

Like you might get a lot of engagement in the beginning, but you're literally cultivating an audience of people who want to fight. And they will eventually target you because that's just how they relate. Yeah, so it's a curse. And a lot of celebrity influencer, like pundit types, they all kind of fall to that curse. It's like you're kind of summoning the outrage as a magic spell. And you're like, I'm going to harness this and profit from it.

And then eventually you find that, oh no, they turn on you. Or like a radical subset of them feel that you're not going crazy enough. And then they turn on you. Like, it's actually quite predictable and it's quite sad to see people get seduced by it. But I guess people are lonely. Yeah.

[21:05] Paul: Martin Gurri is great. Like, this is like the thesis of his book, which is that the internet— How do you spell? Martin Gurri, G-U-R-R-I. It's called The Revolt of the Public. And like his argument was that like the internet enables people to basically find each other really quickly and form these anti-movements, but they dissolve just as quick as they form because they don't stand for anything. Basically what you arrived at as well.

[21:36] Visakan Veerasamy: That's true. Yeah, completely agree.

[21:40] Paul: Posting trajectory. I saw some tweets about this, like, love to hear your thoughts on this. It's, it's also something pretty interesting, right? Because people can like disappear from your life at any moment. I thought of Paul Jarvis when you were tweeting this.

[22:00] Visakan Veerasamy: I remember that.

[22:00] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. He, he just doesn't engage in the internet anymore.

[22:04] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. He's like, I'm done.

[22:06] Paul: He's like, cashed out. Right. What, how do you think about like posting trajectories and how you like form friendships online?

[22:17] Visakan Veerasamy: Right, so this is a very interesting thing to talk about. I'm glad that you're asking me about it because I haven't yet, like, I haven't fleshed out everything that I have to say about this yet, man. And it's nice to have a, like, a context to think about it. Well, for me, I guess, like, background context again, like I mentioned earlier about, like, literary friendships and stuff. So I've always had this very grand, long game like civilizational kind of perspective, which can be a bit tricky sometimes because some people will interpret it as pretentious. But I genuinely, I'm just like that.

I've always been fascinated by like these 100-year, you know, like life's work kind of people, like the painter Hokusai, the guy who painted the Great Wave of Kanagawa. He was like, I'm 50 years old, I've been painting all my life and I've not painted a single thing of note yet. But like, when I'm 70, I'll do XYZ. When I'm 80, it'll be better. When I'm 90, I was like, oh, you know, like, I like that kind of really long romantic investment in a craft, in a public, you know, just, I find that very beautiful. And I've always wanted my life to be like that.

And I have discovered that that's not very common at all. No. And that a lot of people just don't think that far ahead. And they kind of, they respond to, and I'm not saying like everyone is like this or like our friends are like this or whatever, but like, so the thing about posting trajectories is that there are patterns in the way that people behave over extended periods of time. And a common pattern that I see is that someone kind of shows up in a scene, right? Like whether it's Twitter, and you can look at like history to find other examples, but like, And, you know, like even just media stars, like sometimes a singer shows up, they do like 2 amazing albums and then they disappear.

And it's their right. If that's what they want, that's great. And not everyone wants to live their life in the hothouse or in the kitchen or whatever is the crazy chaos. Yeah. So I, I have always wanted to be sustainable and like participate in the public sphere like for a lifetime. Like it's not a, for me, it's not a like show up and go away thing.

Like, so I might have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this with regards to like conversations I had with my, and so, you know, I also mentioned like I used to hang out with my friends every day as teenagers and we would like have these like quote unquote philosophical discussions about like, oh, how are we going to change and improve society? You know, like the young men discourse, debate. And I was always like, well, you got to stick around for a long time. And my friends were, yeah, it was just a lot of disagreement. And, you know, I'm still posting. And as far as I know, most of them are not.

So I have that kind of survivor's guilt slash I told you so, why weren't you listening to me kind of thing. I'm still processing that stuff. But And so I have to be careful not to project all of those feelings onto someone who is like, oh, they came on Twitter or they started a blog and they had a good time for a couple of years and then it was not so fun anymore. And so they wanted to leave. And I have to be careful that I don't be like, how dare you? You're supposed to— are you giving up on your mission?

I'm a bit like a maniac about that. But yeah, it is human and normal to get tired, I think. And sometimes people's just their burst of inspiration, it just, it lasts a few years and then they've said what they had to say and they want to have kids and they've made a bunch of friends that they're happy with and they want to kind of grow old with and they're not necessarily interested in continuing the public contribution that they've made. And I guess part of how I want to think about this to kind of like resolve my own tension is that anybody who shows up in the public and contributes to the public commons in a wholesome way, they have done more than most people do, right? Like they have, you've shared your gift with the world or your perspective or your insight.

And if you had like 2 albums in you and you wrote it and you recorded and published it and you share that with the world, that's, That's what you did. And I appreciate that. And I shouldn't be like, you know, like hounding people to, oh, you should have like a lifelong thing. Because if a person is continuing but their heart's not in it and they don't— they're not enjoying themselves and they're not whatever, then that's not a better outcome. So people should do what they think is right.

[27:04] Paul: I think what you're getting at is that like modern society has sort of created sort of like, I don't know, not like good enough paths. And like, I have this too. And like, I have some friends that are like, stop writing, right? And they're great writers and they're focused on their careers now and they've just sort of like withdraw everything, deleted things. And it's like, that just makes me sad.

[27:35] Visakan Veerasamy: Same.

[27:38] Paul: Mostly because I just think the world would be a better place. Now that person, though, like several people I'm thinking of, those people, like, I totally understand why they're doing that. So you're sort of like making a long bet that like you can shift the culture.

[27:57] Visakan Veerasamy: Yes. Yeah, I think part of it is that the environment isn't set up to encourage and support people in thinking and acting long-term, right? Like I've said to someone, I've said to multiple people that like, you know, if you're going to make like a YouTube channel or something, you're better off making one video a month for 10 years than like, you know, like a video a day for like 6 months at a breakneck pace and then you burn out and you quit, right? And Because there's something about longevity and like just being around for a long period of time that is, it's very hard to put into words all of the value that comes with that. Like just you build familiarity, you cultivate voice, it's reassuring to people that you're around and you've lived through, you know, different presidents, pandemics, whatever, right? Live whatever, just sticking around is just very powerful.

And I almost see it sometimes as like, oh, people are like leaving value on the table, not necessarily even money, but like money too, you know, like just if you stick around, value compounds, like your audience will grow, your impact will grow, everything just keeps growing as long as you don't quit. And you, and you know, a big part of that is you shouldn't burn out either. So one of my catchphrases is show up, don't die, don't quit. And like to stay in that kind of sustainable zone takes some amount of discipline. Oh yeah. And I think a lot of people who come to like the creative, like freestyle world, it's like they want to replace their income as soon as possible.

Replace their income, are you saying?

[29:43] Paul: Like as soon as possible. Like this is where I see people burn out the most. They're making like good money and they're like, all right, I want to replace my income in a year. They go super hard and like, this is too hard. I'm out of here. Yeah, interesting.

I derailed you a little there.

[29:59] Visakan Veerasamy: No, no, that's interesting. I could get back to my thing, but your thing is interesting. Yeah, I think that, and even as you say that, I'm thinking of a couple of things because there's layers to it, right? Like part of it is money and part of it I think is It's not just money. So money, yes, but like, so, you know, the question to ask is like, why do people, why are they so anxious to get to replacement so fast, right? And I think it's that they might not be comfortable with being in that kind of intermediate state of I'm making some money, it's pretty cool, but it's not good enough to make like a living on.

So I still have to do consulting work or I still have to do some other in-between thing. I think people are very uncomfortable in that in-between state where your personal narrative doesn't make sense yet in a conventional setting. So it sounds like you're saying, I'm between jobs, right? It sounds like you're saying I'm unemployed, which sounds like you're saying I'm a useless, kind of ineffective, whatever. And that's not true. It doesn't have to be true, but it's socially challenging to inhabit.

Which is tragic because if people could be patient, right, with themselves and with each other, we would see a flourishing of more just beautiful outcomes on multiple dimensions. It's the pushiness to be like, I need to replace my income within a year that makes them like, oh, then I gotta sell this product and I gotta do these marketing campaigns. And then the language gets pushy and then they just basically become corporate. Them, like, you know, goodbye to the old boss, hello to the new boss. And the way out of that is patience. And patience requires managing your psychology and being comfortable with loneliness.

So I really appreciate, even without having read your book yet, I really appreciate that it exists so that I can like point people to it because I know that it has the, even just the title, right? The Pathless Path, like being aware that, oh, that's what I'm going to be doing. Not only is it useful to have like a phrase or something to point to, It should help people manage their psychology better so that they can be more patient, so that they can create the value or allow the value to show up in a way that is useful for them and for others. No, but I'm drifting off. I would want to say—

[32:24] Paul: No, I think that's spot on. Like, that shocked me actually, like how many people have reached out to me telling me like exactly what you just said. And like, I underestimated how much my book would be a sort of like, I call it like a fake permission slip. Like, I'm not doing anything, but it's like they can point to it and be like, well, I'm doing this, other people are doing this. Here's sort of a phrase that people can't directly attack. And yeah, it sort of works and it's It's so cool to see that happen because like that is like the best outcome for me is that it basically makes people feel less weird.

[33:10] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[33:11] Paul: And I think like on my path, first 3 years, it was like barely breaking even, like living a very cheap lifestyle.

[33:21] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[33:21] Paul: But this ties back to your long-term thinking is like I, and I still like struggle to articulate this. There's like, it's the heart, the heart intuition of like, there's a connectedness with this work I'm doing. There's something here. I can't explain it. I can't prove it to anyone. I have no idea if it will ever pay off.

It may never pay off, but it's like worth doing in itself. And then like, I sort of paired it with this like long vision of like, Okay, like clearly engaging online is like infinite upside. How are people missing it?

[33:58] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so the engaging online upside thing, man, I've been in that, I've been banging that drum since I was a kid. And it's really interesting to ask.

[34:11] Paul: It is so crazy.

[34:12] Visakan Veerasamy: And it's interesting to ask why people don't see what we see. And I have been trying to answer that question for a long time, having lots of conversations with people. I think we have a couple of— I'm going to joke and say we have a couple of screws loose. Oh, for sure.

[34:29] Paul: That's always the people paving the different paths.

[34:33] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, it's that. And I think it also ties to the focus thing, like how we are willing to focus on what we want to see more of, and a lot of people just aren't. And, you know, it feels like the most natural thing to us that we are who we are and like we see the world the way that we see it. And so it's difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone else. Like, so I often get stuff, get people asking me questions like, you know, how do you deal with like being— so I can help a lot of people with a lot of questions, but some questions I just can't. Like one of them is like, how do you get over The fear of like being seen in a negative light, maybe.

And like, you don't. I can give you what I— Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[35:19] Paul: Yeah.

[35:20] Visakan Veerasamy: And like, yeah, I can give you like some nice sounding things, but yeah, you just jump straight to it. Like, I just live with it. Like, I guess I'm used to being misinterpreted my whole life. And yeah, you just face this. It's the wrong question to ask, right? And like, I saw another friend's tweet.

She was saying, she was quoting some, I don't know if it's a painter or a filmmaker, but someone who's like, people would ask him, how do I become an artist? And he would be like, oh, if you have to ask like this, don't do it. And I'm like, oh, I see the cleverness in that. Like even as a directive to put, like, so it's like the bell curve that we mentioned earlier with the Walmart employees. Like for the people who are gonna do it, or they are like, they are on the path sort of. Telling them they shouldn't do it will actually make them wait, wait, wait, no, what?

Fuck you, I'm going to do it. And then so it takes some sensitivity and some, and there's always some element of chaos. But yeah, we are still so early and people still don't see it. And I don't think our job is to like persuade everyone to see it. Our job is to see it as well as we can, share that. Clarity of sight with each other and find the other people who are kind of at the margin or the boundary of they can kind of see it, but none of their peers or friends can help them with that.

And so you kind of, you keep helping the people at the margins and then it swells from there. Yeah, but yeah, we are so early and there's just so much upside. That's so true.

[36:50] Paul: Yeah, I have a good response for the the fears. So like people ask me this all the time. Aren't you afraid of going broke? Aren't you afraid of etc.? It doesn't even matter what it is. It's their insecurities, not mine.

But I usually respond in that similar, like playful style. I was like, yeah, I am. Yeah. And then some people get curious, right? And then they're like, oh, oh, really? Oh yeah, of course.

Like, of course I worry about money, but like, I think in the workplace and maybe you just were always wired a bit different in the workplace, there's sort of this silent conspiracy to never bring these things up. Right. But they're there. And then when you like go off on your own, they're just like, they're dancing around with you every day and eventually you just learn to dance with them and there's, they're like, microexistential crises. So it's like you can kind of like schedule it in. It's like, okay, 4:30 to 4:45, I'm going to have my existential crisis, but been there, done that, going to ride that, going to keep going.

[37:58] Visakan Veerasamy: Oh man, look at my shirt.

[38:00] Paul: What's that?

[38:02] Visakan Veerasamy: It says, it says I've resolved my existential crisis and all I got was this t-shirt.

[38:07] Paul: Perfect.

[38:08] Visakan Veerasamy: And this was from, yeah, this is one of the first t-shirts that I made. For the t-shirt brand that I wanted to make. That's funny. Well, I was about to say something. What were you saying before that? Oh yeah, so, you know, we now live in like uncertain times, right?

Like economy and interest rates and all that inflation wall. And I kind of joke with my wife sometimes like, hey, you know, I have no like job insecurity. I don't need to, like, you can't get fired if you don't have a job. Yeah. And you know, there's a comedy to it, but there's also a truth to it. And I think Taleb wrote about this in like Black Swan and Antifragile and whatever.

Like, so like if you're like a taxi driver, like you have to worry about, oh no, like today I had a not so good day. I didn't get as many fares. And like sometimes you might have an extra good day and make a lot of fares. But like there's never a day where like, nothing. And if there's a day that it's like nothing, the next day is different. So you have that kind of— the volatility is priced in day to day and you live with that.

Whereas if you have a job at a company, right? And Jim Carrey has this great anecdote about his father. And he said that his father was doing like the prop— his father was very funny, could have been a comedian, but chose to do like the stable thing. And then he got laid off like during a recession or something. He just got laid off. And he's like, you can do everything right.

And then it can all come down crashing down on you. So Jim Carrey's conclusion was that you might as well take a risk and do what you want to do anyway. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff to get into from that, but like, yeah, just the sense of if you can take, like you can't escape stress, you can't escape risk. And it's just a matter of like, how do you want to manage your risk? I think, you know, sometimes people say to me things like, 'Oh, how are you so risk tolerant?' And I don't think that's actually true. I think, yeah, I'm actually very risk averse.

I actually came onto my path out of anxiety that I would not be able to stomach the hidden risk of having a job and one day I lose my job and then what? Like, oh fuck, I don't know how I'm going to deal with that. Like, yeah, so. I do think people have very, just as they don't see the upside to the internet, they also have just very miscalibrated risk profile, risk assessment profiles and stuff.

[40:37] Paul: Yeah, I think I'm very risk averse. Basically, I don't think I have any risk of going absolutely broke, mostly because I would just lower my expenses.

[40:50] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[40:52] Paul: And I don't need, I don't have, I don't need to take any time to like revamp my identity and deal with like a loss of a career or a job. It's like, well, if I stop making money, I'll just figure it out.

[41:06] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[41:07] Paul: How are you making money these days? And like, how has that shifted?

[41:12] Visakan Veerasamy: Right. So I have a Patreon, which is like a quarter of my bills-ish. I sell ebooks, right? So that's like another, it fluctuates. So it can go between like a quarter to half, depends on how much sales I'm getting. And I also still do some marketing consulting.

Well, I call it marketing consulting because I used to work in software marketing. And that's just the language that I have that works best. It's actually, you know, it's a bit of therapy. It's a bit of coaching. It's a bit of, Like people just pay me to hang out and help them think through their problems and solve their problems with them, which is again, it's like if I had, you know, I dreamed of doing that as a kid. I remember I had a blog post when I was a teenager saying, ah, I wish I could just be like a roving troubleshooter, right?

Like just a, just, I wish people would pay me for this. Yeah, I think so.

[42:03] Paul: I think roving troubles, like digital roving troubleshooting, like that's cool. I like that.

[42:09] Visakan Veerasamy: Right? Like, yeah, I'll just hang out with you and listen to you talk and pay close attention because I actually give a shit. And, you know, I love to qualify my clients very thoroughly. I'm like, you know, text me what you think you need. And like, I charge $500 per session. And the idea there is not, oh, I think I'm so important that I deserve X amount of money.

It's more of like, I want to make sure that I always deliver at least that amount of value in our exchange because otherwise I don't feel good about myself. Like, if I made you spend an hour and a half And it's like, you know, just if I don't bring that kind of energy and insight, I'm getting into the weeds on this. But like, yeah, you know, I'm like a roaming troubleshooter. I help people just think clearly through their problems and to figure out— there's almost always like a— it's crazy. And I've kind of switched, flipped my perspective on this because I remember when I was younger, And I was reading about people who are like, oh, I'm a life coach or I'm an XYZ coach. And I'm like, people pay money for that?

Like, what's— well, why? Why would you pay money for that? And, you know, because I mean, I am very independent to the point of like refusing help from other people, which is a weakness on my part that I'm working on.

[43:22] Paul: I went through that too.

[43:22] Visakan Veerasamy: But now I've come to— right? Like, I got to figure everything out by myself. DIY, self-taught, read all the manuals, which is not bad. There's something useful about that. But like, there comes to a point where the bottleneck is not getting perspective from other people. But yeah, so now I've come to see that.

And especially, you know, it's funny, I think helping my clients has helped me see how I could be helped by someone else.

[43:48] Paul: Yeah.

[43:49] Visakan Veerasamy: It's, you know, and like, so one of the things that I do for my clients is that I sit down. So, you know, it's, I take other people more seriously than I take myself in a sense. And I'm like, okay, let's help you with this. The first thing I always tell people is let's do an inventory of all your stuff and like show me your website, your Twitter, your blog, how are you talking about this? And then as I'm going through that, I'm like, huh, I haven't done this with myself in a long time. So very often people will have a website or a blog or something and there will be something good about it because they were compelled to put together stuff because they had some idea, they had something they cared about.

But they very seldom lead with it because they're shy, they're nervous, they're uncertain, or whatever reason, they tend to like bury it a little bit. And so very often it's like, oh, there's something on like page 3, or like there's one line in their About Me page that's like all the way near the bottom. And you're like, this is amazing. Your website should be, I am so-and-so and this is what I do and this is how I do it. And that would like get them more clients or get them more money or more effectiveness, whatever. And people don't do that.

And I realized that I am not doing that as effectively as I could be doing. And it would be very worthwhile for me to pay someone $1,000 to walk through that process with me because the downstream value will be so high. And it's just a way of thinking that is— I don't know if I would call it abundance mindset, but it's just an instrumental way of thinking that When I realized that I flinched from the idea of that, like flinched from the idea of raising my prices or charging so much or whatever, I realized that I still have some internalized kind of job life mindset where the amount of money you charge or you make is a measure of like your prestige or status or something and not the amount of value you create, which is, so it's funny because even being like, ferral for so long, I still have some of that programming.

Or I think, I don't think I have that programming myself that much, but like I anticipate that I would potentially, so this is like preemptive, me being preemptive, right? I anticipate that I would encounter someone who's like, how dare you charge so much? Who do you think you are? And I can defend other people very easily. I'll be like, anyone should be able to charge whatever they feel like charging. And the market will decide.

You know, like what you say doesn't matter. You can, like I think I once said—

[46:18] Paul: Doesn't matter if you're charging $1,000, if you have no clients, you're not actually doing any work.

[46:24] Visakan Veerasamy: Correct, yeah. And you know, the market will pay whatever the market will pay. It's worth to someone whatever it is that you charge, right? And like I have another tweet somewhere, it's just like the difference, there's one of the great psychic divides in society is between people who have actually sold stuff in an open marketplace and people who have not. And if you've sold stuff, like, so I used to sell t-shirts even, you can just see some people will be like, will balk at the price. Some people don't even flinch.

They don't even think twice. They're like, and you know that, oh, they would pay more, you know, because they, it's, and it's just, you realize that you're generalizing from your context and like your psychology of pricing and your, idea of what is valuable and what is not. And someone else can have a completely different perspective on that. And that is very trippy to really come to terms with. And it's humbling as well. It makes you realize that your own perspective is so limited and there's just such a different world out there.

So many different worlds out there.

[47:23] Paul: Yeah, money psychology is like, that is one of the top inner games you need to master, I think, on a Pathless Path. We're so anchored to stuff like—

[47:34] Visakan Veerasamy: Yes. Yes.

[47:35] Paul: I'm always— I'm fascinated now because I've sort of worked through a lot of my issues when I hear people who have like millions of dollars, like, oh, this place has gas 3 cents cheaper. It's like, right, right. Yeah.

[47:51] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[47:52] Paul: You've graduated beyond that problem, but you haven't realized it yet.

[47:57] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, it's really trippy. I was talking to Michael Ashcroft. And we both noticed that we both kind of left whatever previous job we were in, and we are both making roughly the same amount of money that we were making in the previous job.

[48:16] Paul: This is so interesting. Let's dive into this.

[48:19] Visakan Veerasamy: Right, right. It can't be a random coincidence, but it's freaky because it doesn't feel like, conscious decision, right? But it seems like it's just, it's so close that it suggests that at some level, and I believe this to be true, I think there's like a social, cultural, psychological homeostatic impulse. So homeostasis is just the human body temperature is regulated a certain way and we just self-regulate in ways that we might not realize that we're doing, right? Like these opportunities, yes. Those opportunities, no.

This amount of money, yes. Past that, like, so once you're at the threshold, so you don't think, oh, I should stop making more money. You just, you make enough and then you're like, oh, I wonder what's on TV, or I wonder what's, you know, you just kind of, and like day to day, you don't feel like you're doing anything particular, but like, man, like you said, we are anchored to our, what we think we deserve or what we think is right for us. It's just very trippy to think about.

[49:21] Paul: Yeah, this is interesting. So this year is my 5th year, is the first year I've like matched what my former income is. And I was thinking about this. I'm like, am I just going to like anchor and plateau here now? Right? Because like that, it does feel true.

And like one thing that's made me realize, like the tech economy in the US is totally detached from the normal economy. I never worked in tech. The tech salaries of like my peers who went to business school are like insane. And so I'll have these conversations with people who are like thinking about leaving and they'll be making like $400,000, $500,000. And then they'll like— I had this one person, he detailed to me like, okay, here's my plan for making $400,000 working on my own. And then he did it.

And I'm like, what the heck? Like, what am I missing?

[50:17] Visakan Veerasamy: Like, that's crazy.

[50:20] Paul: It's like, I— oh man, my impulse is like, he had this like Google Doc. I'm like, he can't do that. That's, that's crazy. Like, he's got to take more years. You got to like struggle. You got to like earn a low income.

That was like my narrative and my path.

[50:36] Visakan Veerasamy: Right.

[50:37] Paul: But I think I sort of took a slow path. Because I sensed I was working through personal issues, not business issues. And I had a sense I worked 10 years before I left. I was like, I have like 5 emergency break glass to make money plans. I don't want to do those. I need to find a different path and I need to like upgrade myself first.

So I didn't really go after the money, but Yeah, this stuff is crazy.

[51:07] Visakan Veerasamy: That's insane. You know, I almost find myself thinking like, if, I wouldn't actually suggest this because even that is, you know, but like there's a parallel possible path where if every day or every week we just call each other and just be like, you can make more money.

[51:27] Paul: You know, you could be, and like start a strip chat and just like, that's the only text we can send.

[51:34] Visakan Veerasamy: Only thing.

[51:34] Paul: Just see what happens.

[51:36] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, you can make more money. I think it, you know, like, so again, when I was a kid and I used to read like life coach shit, I'm like, that seems ridiculous. But now I'm starting to kind of get it. It's simpler than I thought, but it's also, you know, I'm still processing all this stuff. But like, yeah, there is something about limiting self-belief about what you're worth, how much you can charge, and just all of those things.

[52:02] Paul: Well, I think this is a powerful thing globally with the internet now too. If you can like speak American English on the internet, right? And like, what, like internet American English, like, so you can like understand tech and like entrepreneurship and like understand how to collaborate. Like people will let you charge US rates if you're able to like make that like stance towards like work in like a savvy way.

[52:33] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[52:34] Paul: And like, because you realize, like, Americans, like, we have a crazy labor economy that just pays insane wages and like you have like random average workers that just like assume life should give you $150,000 incomes. Yeah. And then you have like highly exceptional people in like Asia who are like— and I went through this with my wife. She's from Taiwan. She, she moved here, started freelancing, and like, I can't charge more than $15 an hour. I'm like, what?

Why? But she kept charging higher rates and it's like, oh my gosh, like people aren't even like questioning these rates. I need to raise them.

[53:17] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, yeah. So even with my books, right? Like, so my first ebook, Friendly Ambitious Nerd, I copied the pricing of like some other ebook. I think Wint Drill, like his ebook was like $6.99 or $7.99. So I'm like, yeah, I'll just copy Dyrill's pricing. And so I sold like 2,700+ copies of that, which is like $20-something thousand, I think.

And then Introspect, my second book, I spent a lot more time on it. So to me, I'm like, okay, this is, it's a much, it's a proper book. It's worth charging more. So I charged like $15. And, you know, like my assumptions about demand and supply is that Oh, well, you know, if this book costs almost twice as much, you should probably see like half as much sales-ish, something like that. Like there's some supply-demand assumptions in my head, but like, no, like I've already made more money from the second book.

And I mean, well, it's not all else held constant, right? Because it is a better book in some ways and it's more, it has a better like value proposition, I guess.

[54:23] Paul: I think you underpriced the first book. Like, I think like up until like, like up like $9.99 minimum, I don't think most people are blinking.

[54:34] Visakan Veerasamy: Agreed, yeah. And so anybody who's already, and like, I think very often like the purchase, like psychology is like, if it's, there's some people, it's like a huge bump from zero to like 1 cent, right? There's people who are like, I'm not gonna pay anything for this. So if it's zero to 1 cent, you get a huge drop off. But like once you've agreed to pay 1 set, you're like, oh, like $5. It's like from $5 to $10, it's like, if it's like a product that they're gonna read and keep and whatever, like going from 5 to 10 to 15, it feels like more to ask.

But at the point of purchase, it's like if you like the author, you like the work, and you're like, oh, you know, 5 bucks for whatever.

[55:12] Paul: Yeah, and even book pricing is weird. Like you, people will, I'm sure you've been asked, what's the way you get the most amount of money? For this, right? And it's like, okay, what they're really asking is, given that I will pay $15.99, how do you get the most percentage of that? Like, right. I said to somebody once, I was like, well, you can send me as much money as you want, right?

[55:40] Visakan Veerasamy: But they don't necessarily— but how did that go?

[55:43] Paul: I mean, I was just joking around, but I don't remember how it went. I think it was just a light reaction. But yeah, that's the reality. Like, because a book exists, they're like, okay, I want to transfer a certain amount of money to you, but a very specific amount that is like a proper amount to pay for a book. But like, we could be living in an alternate reality where books are $100 and that's just like what people pay for books.

[56:09] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, yeah. I've, I've had, I've had So I'm set up on Gumroad and I've had 3 different people over the years, over 2 years, 3 people in 2 years who put in $1,000 for one of my books. And twice, so all 3 times people wanted to pay me that, it went through once. So somebody actually paid $1,000 for one of my books. And the other 2 times Gumroad flagged it as fraud. And like they emailed me to be like, hey, what's going on?

I wanna give you cash. It smacks me as fraud. Somebody even sent me a meme of like the Pawn Stars guy, which is like, Visa, $1,000 for my book. Visa, best I can do is $100. And you know, so I did leave like $1,800 on the table because Gumroad. I mean, whatever, it's not a huge deal, but like, it's good to know that again, like if you have like 2,000 readers, one of them will pay you $1,000.

[57:09] Paul: Yeah.

[57:09] Visakan Veerasamy: Because they can and they like your stuff and it really helps to like just be mindful of that. So even with my Patreon, right? Like when I first set up my Patreon, I was just randomly filling in the details for the pricing tiers. And for like, I put, so I did think as far ahead as, oh, you know, like for anchor psychology, you should put a large number that you don't expect anyone to do. And the copy I put in that was like, oh wow, you must be crazy. Like what the hell?

Like what's wrong with you kind of thing. And then someone texted me, and this is a very valuable text to send me. Someone texted me, hey, I wanted to give you more, but it looked from your language like you didn't want anyone to do that. So I didn't want it to be weird. And I was like, oh, like that, like set the gears spinning. I was like, oh my God, like some people have a lot of money.

They don't know what to do with it. And they would like to give it to a creator that they'll enjoy. And so I did rephrase that. I made it like, oh, Medici tier, like you're my biggest patrons, whatever. There is some amount of expectation management that you want to do because I think that you can get—

[58:14] Paul: it's very tricky.

[58:16] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, you don't want someone to get the sense that, oh, by giving you a fat sum of money, they now own your time or they are entitled to some response. So you want to communicate boundaries and all that very, very carefully. And it makes sense that some people avoid that problem entirely by just not thinking about it and having, oh, I don't charge a lot of money. Like, no one person should give me a lot of money because I don't want to deal with that, which is fair, it's fine. But again, like, we should be— people should think about this stuff because it can be so lucrative. It can pay for your bills, you know, like, uh, yeah, yeah.

And it's a lot.

[58:51] Paul: Yeah, it's super tricky because like the person who's gonna pay you $250 a month even if they don't expect something, you are going to feel like you owe them something. Like, this is just the nature of receiving gifts. Like, yeah. How did it feel to get $1,000 for your book? Like, gratitude? Like, what did you feel?

[59:15] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. Yeah. For the book, it was easier, I think, because I think for the book, it's nice because, well, at first glance, when I saw the notification, I was like, holy shit. Like, is this a mistake? Did someone typo something? And, but once you've had it a couple of times, you're like, oh, okay, it's possible that people with that much kind of disposable income like your stuff enough that they want to do that.

And how I frame these things is, and I got this from like, I can't remember who I got it from, but I have this motif of paying things forward. So I'm like, if anyone gives me a lot of money or a lot of credit or a lot of anything that just feels like a lot, What I do is, you know, I receive it. I sit with it for like a beat, right? Like, I appreciate, thank you for so much support. It's a lot. I hope, you know, it was a thoughtful thing on your part and not like something crazy for you.

But if you are serious about this, I will accept and I will, you know, kind of redirect my energy onwards. Same for like, you know, if like something goes super viral on Twitter and it feels like, wow, I don't, quote unquote, deserve all this attention. I will just be like, I would like to use this opportunity to plug some fresh new voices and kind of encourage these people. Like that kind of psychology, I find it just, it reduces the tension to like do this very effusive, you know, it's like winning an Oscar and whatever. And even so, even with Oscar-winning speeches, people thank the other people that were involved, right? And that is, I think that is the way we should distribute the load, right?

So that no one person has to be like pedestalized with tons of money and tons of everything.

[01:01:00] Paul: Yeah, so this was one of the reasons I reached out. I don't think it's going to end up being this. We sort of rifted in a bunch of different directions, but like one of my ideas was to like shout out a bunch of different creators and like up and coming, I think. Both of us really enjoy this. Like, I think this is one reason I love just like using the internet and like to share ideas, like being online. Now that I have an audience, I can just like shout out people all the time.

[01:01:30] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, it's the best. It's the best.

[01:01:32] Paul: And it's good stuff. What are some of— what are some of the people you're following lately that you're like, oh wow, this person needs to get a bigger audience or? Their stuff is so good.

[01:01:46] Visakan Veerasamy: Yes. So I just tweeted about one of my mutuals. Her username is Isabel, I-S-A-B-E-L, Unraveled, U-N-R-A-V-E-L-E-D. And she seems to be—

[01:02:00] Paul: I met Isabel last year.

[01:02:01] Visakan Veerasamy: Oh, you met? She's awesome. Oh, nice. How did you? Right, yeah. So I, what a small world, right?

Like she's, her thing says Toronto, her location. But, you know, so I don't know how we found each other, right? Again, it's like just like minds. You see some, you see snippets of text somewhere on the internet. You're like, oh, this person and I, like, we have some affinity. And she has been on like a hot streak for like the past month or something or several months.

And it's like the same things we talk about, but she's in a relatively like fresh state. Yeah. She says stuff that I have said before, but in her own language. And, you know, seeing her do her thing makes me realize I'm a little bit tired because I have been saying what she— so she's like, her Twitter account. Yeah, her tweet count is like 3,400 tweets and I'm at like 200,000 plus. Like I've been doing roughly the same thing, but like for like 15 years.

And I would much rather people rather than me kind of running dry, being washed up, right? Like, and like, I'm repeating myself and I don't even— I'm starting to kind of get tired of saying the same thing. I would much rather people hear it from a fresh, excited voice where they are, you know, kind of— it's percolating in real time and it's all happening for them. Yeah, I would highly recommend people follow her because she's in the zone right now, right? Like, and I think with a lot of creators, there's a There's a period of like, so when I talk about lifelong, like long game creativeness, even then you still do have like hot streaks and trials and like long periods of time where even just lying fallow, like David Ogilvy used to say, like he would work very hard and then he would like take a vacation and not even talk to anybody, don't even think, like just vegetate.

And that's an important part of the process as well. Which is great for the creative. It's not so great for the audience. It's like, what's happening? So yeah, and again, like, because we have multiple people, we can direct people to whoever is currently in their hot streak so that everyone can enjoy that.

[01:04:12] Paul: Yeah, I love that. I found a hot streak in 2020, 2021. Just like, I'd been writing about work for a few years and then like the world became interested in All right.

[01:04:25] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[01:04:25] Paul: It was like, oh wow, this is amazing. Yeah. Isabel's amazing. When I met her, I think she had like a few posts on Medium and I was just like, these are really good. And then like seeing all her writing over the past year, it's, it's so good. So huge shout out to her.

We are going to link that up. I'm going to like cut this clip out and post it as well to give her some hype.

[01:04:52] Visakan Veerasamy: Nice. Yes.

[01:04:54] Paul: What, one person I've been following who I met through my wife and both of these people, Isabel and Michelle, who I'm about to mention, went through Rite of Passage. And I think Rite of Passage is this secret. I actually live like right next to David.

[01:05:11] Visakan Veerasamy: Oh, nice.

[01:05:13] Paul: But it is unleashing like so many interesting people.

[01:05:19] Visakan Veerasamy: Wonderful.

[01:05:19] Paul: And I didn't ever take Write of Passage, but my wife did, and she's like meeting all the people and connecting people. So it's amazing. Yeah. Michelle Varhus is her handle on Twitter. Her writing about like quitting her job and taking a sabbatical has been so good. And this is something I want people to realize is that Like people like me, I'm writing my stuff because there's not enough people writing this stuff.

So literally anyone shows up, starts writing about like work sabbaticals, reflecting on leisure, trying to find a new path. I'm going to be reading because there's still a massive shortage of interesting writing and ideas around this. Like there's a couple popular writers, but they're not very good. They're like way past their prime. Yeah, but yeah. And she's, she's done 100 podcasts, so she's passed the Do 100 Challenge on this podcast status post-adult thing with her sister.

I think her stuff is going to blow up. It's, it's really good. How do I spell? I'll link it in the chat here.

[01:06:34] Visakan Veerasamy: Okay. M-B-A-R-T-H-O-O-S-E.

[01:06:41] Paul: Yeah, and so shout out to David Perel too. He just keeps creating so many interesting internet weirdos that are unleashing wonderful—

[01:06:51] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, I was reading some Jane Jacobs. So she was talking about cities, right? This is one of my long-term curiosities that I'm slowly making sense of. And one of Jane Jacobs' kind of almost startlingly sharp or like, you know, sometimes you read something and you're like, that seems very strongly put and very confidently put. Like, how could you possibly say that with such confidence, right? And her idea is like, all wealth is created from specialization and trade.

That's it. You know, that's my interpretation. So maybe I've read it wrongly, but like, it's a reductive perspective that seems to work. And the other one I remember thinking was high output management, Andy Grove, he said, oh, if people, if your employees are not doing something, or just if people are not doing something, there's only two reasons. Either they're unwilling or they're unable. And so if they're unwilling or unable, they either need motivation or training.

That's it. I'm like, that's it? Like, when someone who's like so familiar with the subject matter is able to reduce it to say it's two things and nothing else, and to say it's two, like there are two main things, like, okay, And nothing else, like what? Because they've thought through it so well. Anyway, so Jane Jacobs says specialization and trade. And I have been obsessed with this in the sense that in a group of friends or a group of, because this is how all cities develop, right?

Like there's a group of people who show up in the same space and the way they create wealth is specialization and trade. Well, I think to be specific, she talks about import replacement. So like in Tokyo, for example, they were like, bicycle shops that would import bicycles. And then eventually they would also be repairing bicycles. And the people who are repairing bicycles develop like expertise. They know what the spare products are, what blah, blah, blah.

And even now in the world, like people who repair smartphones, the people who repair smartphones know and understand smartphones better than the people who make smartphones because they just see so many different kinds of And so if those people were to start something potentially, like they might know things that even the state-of-the-art smartphone makes. Anyway, I keep getting derailed. Point is, this goes back to David. The idea is that any group of friends, any group of peers, like digital nomads, Pathless Path people, whatever, we can all kind of exist in roughly the same space. And then we can specialize and trade. And when we each specialize in different things, we can trade our skills, our specializations, and that would literally create wealth, right?

So somebody becomes a writing coach, somebody becomes a fitness coach or whatever. Again, when I say coach, I myself get like, I start getting preemptive and be like, oh, is it just a Matryoshka? Coach is coaching, coach is coaching.

[01:09:41] Paul: Let's ground it there. I have great listeners.

[01:09:45] Visakan Veerasamy: Right, yeah. But exactly, it's like the, you know, one of my favorite discoveries on Twitter was this guy Sam. Oh, Sam.

[01:09:54] Paul: Sam's amazing.

[01:09:55] Visakan Veerasamy: From Move Better Project.

[01:09:57] Paul: Oh wait, is this Sam Sager?

[01:10:00] Visakan Veerasamy: No, it's a different Sam.

[01:10:02] Paul: Oh, there's another Sam. This is another good Sam you need to check out. Sam Sager.

[01:10:06] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, Sam Sager. I know Sager. Yeah, he's also in fitness, interestingly, but they do different things, right? So Sam Sager does like the intuitive fitness stuff. And Sam Martin, the other guy, he does— he's like a physio. And he's like just this amazing— he's like a nerd when it comes to understanding like just full body fascia and like how everything connects to everything.

And just, you know, if to the point where once I think I posted about having some back pain or hip pain or something. And I asked people, what kind of pains do you have? And so I had dozens of people saying, oh, my hip, my leg, my arm, my shoulder. And he would show up in the reply saying, you should try this, you should try that. And then those people would reply, holy shit, you just fixed the problem that I've had for 5 years and I couldn't get anyone to solve. And you just solved it by replying with a tweet and/or maybe a video or something.

And I'm like, wow, this guy needs to be famous because he is fixing people in my mentions. And you know, he's—

[01:11:05] Paul: I'm going to shout him out. @movebettersam, a magician with 2,000 followers.

[01:11:13] Visakan Veerasamy: That's correct. Yeah.

[01:11:14] Paul: Crazy.

[01:11:15] Visakan Veerasamy: And when he showed up at my mentions, he had like 100, I think, or less. And you know, he's specialized in fixing people's pains and he has helped hundreds of people in my mentions. And I am specialized at getting internet eyeballs onto people, right? So I'm— He specializes in pains and I specialize in finding a market for people who are like that, right? And just the way that the synergy of us helping each other out, it's just so beautiful. And I love this particular example because it's so concrete.

There's people with pain who need to know someone like Sam, and Sam needs to connect with people like that. And like, but he shouldn't necessarily spend years of his life getting good at marketing, right? Like, he should just keep getting better at what he's doing. And friends who can help with marketing can help. And so there's that win-win synergy there.

[01:12:04] Paul: Yeah, this is something I don't think the whole ecosystem of like the creator economy does well. I think it's, it's still so hard as an individual to know how to spend my time.

[01:12:18] Visakan Veerasamy: Correct.

[01:12:19] Paul: I really don't have a good feel for like how what I'm working on contributes to things.

[01:12:27] Visakan Veerasamy: Oh, shit. That's sad for me to hear, man. Like, I want to, like, the moment you say that, I want to help you with that.

[01:12:32] Paul: So I like, but maybe I think I would add some nuance around that. I think I understand. I think I understand, like, my writing seems to have a powerful impact and really helps people and sharing my story and highlighting other people's stories. I sort of know that. What I'm saying is What are the actions I should be doing that would like contribute to like the broader ecosystem? And like, how do I think about spending my time?

Right? Should I spend 60% of my time like hosting events and connecting people? Should I be heads down creating more for the next few years? And like how to balance that just on like a day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month basis. And this is just like part of this path. But I think a lot of people default to like making their own self into a business enterprise and successful and don't invest enough in like the broader ecosystem of like things that might come back in unexpected ways a few years from now to help you.

Yeah, maybe it just ties back to your long-term mindset.

[01:13:39] Visakan Veerasamy: That's part of it. Yeah. You know, like, so again, if so, part of how long-term things work is that you have to be able to trust that the people around are going to stick around, right? Because if they're going to disappear in a year or two, then, you know, why bother, right? But yeah, so it's very, very worthwhile in a scene of like 1,000 people, let's say, to find the 10 people that— and it's probably more than 10, but like find 10 to 50 people or whatever that you trust will be around for the long haul, like 20, 30 years down the line. And again, I'm not saying that people who quit or leave are bad.

It's each person's free choice to play how they want to play and leave where they want to leave. But really the insight is that compounding returns compound so much. I think there's a quote, it's like Warren Buffett made like half his money in the last 2 or 3 years, like over like 80. Right? So it's like, and again, I'm not even interested in like that kind of insane investing money kind of thing. But like compound interest is just not, it breaks human brains like to see like when it doubles and doubles.

Even with like my Twitter following, my Twitter follower count. I have this quick story I can tell about how like when I was like 10 years ago, I think I had like, or like 12 years ago, I had like less than 1,000 followers. I had like maybe 400. And I'm like, okay, I want to get to 1,000 followers. And by next year, do you think I can do it? And I didn't do it.

Like I was hoping to get to 1,000 and I didn't. And so I was hoping to get 600 followers and I made less than that. And if you had told me then that, oh, 12 years from now, you're going to have like 40-something thousand, that would be insane. Because even if I had met my goal times 2, So like if I had made like 1,000+ followers in a year, in 10 years, that's still like 10K. Or even let's say if it's 2,000, it's 20K, which is like insane. It would have been outrageous to me at the time because it's just so much more than what I had managed.

And I failed to achieve my goal back then, but I just stuck with it because why not? I love what I do. And again, the compounding is so unintuitive that And maybe next year I'll have like 50-something. I don't even care about the numbers specifically anymore, but like, just, it's been shocking to me how my intuition for numbers was so wrong.

[01:16:08] Paul: Yeah.

[01:16:08] Visakan Veerasamy: Like, you know, at my most optimistic, I was still insufficiently optimistic.

[01:16:13] Paul: That's the thing. It's like, I think David Senra, I'm not sure if you've listened to his podcast, but he was saying there's people that don't understand the scale of the internet and there's people that do understand the scale of the internet. And they both like— and the thing about the people that do understand the scale of the internet is they also don't understand the scale of the internet. I'm butchering that. Yeah, but like, yeah, like when, when I first started writing my book, I had 2,500 newsletter subscribers. And when I launched it a year later, I had 100 presales.

And if you had asked me what success looks like, I would say, I don't know, like 1,000 books would be like life-changing, like maybe over like 5 years. Um, and I sold like 9,000 books this year. It's insane.

[01:17:17] Visakan Veerasamy: Awesome. Yeah, it's just, yeah, I found some old notes in my paper notebook where I was like, if I sell 200 books, I'll be so happy, right? Like, it's just, yeah, internet scale is, oh man, I think, yeah, I think it's because the early days seem so fragile and right in the sub-100 zone. It just seems like, oh, no one's listening, nobody cares. It's like I'm shouting into the void, or like, you know, and it does take almost like an act of faith. But I did have faith, and it wasn't mystical, right?

It was like math. I figured that I can't be the only guy like me. I have, you know, on Reddit and other forums and whatever, I have seen thoughtful people write thoughtful comments in responses to like one other person, right? And so I know that such people exist and maybe it's one in a thousand people, right? So that's 0.1%, right? So if it's one, and then it's like, I really do the math on this.

Like if it's one in a thousand people who's like that, that means you have to talk to, I think like 1,800, 1,600, there's some math number for like, let's say it's 2,000 people. You need to talk to 2,000 people to find your one first real friend, right? Which sounds like, some people hear that and they're like, oh no, I'm never going to find that real friend. I'm like, 2,000 is not a lot. It's like, if you do 3 a day, that's like, you know, within, like if you do 5 a day, right? That's 400, that's barely over a year.

And like, if a little bit of effort every day for a year and a half leads to you finding your soulmate, finding your creative partner, finding just someone who you can really talk to, that changes the trajectory and the quality of the rest of your life. So I always believe that, and I always, uh, and you know, that wasn't like— I wasn't like killing myself over it while I was doing it, you know. It's like you can sustainably do that while living your life, while you still have a job, like, you know, on the commutes, on the way to work, that kind of thing. And yeah, once you have that, then you're off to the races, right? Because then you can, once you found the first person, they might have a friend who's like you. And so it gets easier and easier to match and match, which is why, you know, like, it's funny, like, when I bring up someone that I like, you already know the person.

Like, yeah, because the paths do converge in some ways. And because we all flow towards what we think is interesting, I guess, and what we think is compelling and exciting.

[01:19:50] Paul: Yeah, it seems like there are a lot of people who are thoughtful and curious. but in sharing their stuff, but it is still so, so few people.

[01:20:02] Visakan Veerasamy: It is very few. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, again, like we are really not wired for the scale of the internet and the scale of the world even, right? Like just, just there are billions of people.

[01:20:13] Paul: For example, Listen Notes has this like rank of podcasts. It lists my podcast as a top 1% podcast. Now, because I don't tweet this because like, okay, that's, that just means there's just a lot of people not listening to like defunct podcasts, but there's like a very small number of total podcasts on Earth. And like most people I know before my creator path don't have a podcast.

[01:20:46] Visakan Veerasamy: Right. Yeah. I mean, so between me and you, I can say this and you know it's true. Anybody who wants a top 0.1% podcast, even if you want it, you can have it.

[01:20:57] Paul: Yeah, basically.

[01:20:58] Visakan Veerasamy: That's it.

[01:20:59] Paul: I think just do 500 episodes and keep sharing thoughtfully and try to get better.

[01:21:04] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[01:21:05] Paul: Yeah.

[01:21:06] Visakan Veerasamy: If you actually want it, you can have it. But like, I guess the tricky thing is people, again, it's like the long game thing is managing your psychology. You know, so I wrote Introspect like to kind of address those things so that I can, if I meet someone who's like, they want it, but they're struggling, like that's a solvable problem. You can figure it out and resolve it. But like, yeah, if you want it, you can have it. We are seriously still in the early days and it's, yeah, like I think us telling, yeah, or were you gonna mention Danny?

No, I was gonna say David.

[01:21:36] Paul: Oh, I was gonna say. I think like Danny Miranda, like he's going, he's gonna have a 0.1% podcast.

[01:21:43] Visakan Veerasamy: Correct. Yeah.

[01:21:45] Paul: Yeah, I, I talked to him like a couple of years ago and then like met him in Perth. He's now moved to Austin because everyone lives in Austin now. But yeah, just when I talked to him, he, he has the heart and like, he has the heart and he wants to get better. And that's like all you need. But that is hard. That those two things are very hard to prioritize in your life.

But yeah, go back to David.

[01:22:14] Visakan Veerasamy: I think Quentin Tarantino has a quote that's like, if you just love a movie, if you love movies, if you really, really love movies, you live and breathe movies, you watch movies all your life, blah, blah, blah. And you try to make movies, like, it doesn't matter if you don't need to know how the camera works and how the— what filter, all that shit. Like, you just, you can't help but if you just really love the thing, you can't help but make good movies eventually. And, you know, like, there's so many ways you could nitpick that. You're like, oh, survivor bias and luck and halo effect and whatever. But like, I do think there's a truth to it.

Like, there is a same form. Like, I feel that way about writing. When I meet someone like Danny and I see how he podcasts, I'm like, oh yeah, you know, like, you care enough and you persist enough. Eventually, as long as you're not like in a bubble and you're like, you know, as long as you're like somewhat dynamic, responding to feedback, paying attention to the world and you just keep showing up, like it can't not have an effect.

[01:23:18] Paul: And yeah, and yeah, you post— I posted this video of like 10 years of writing. I did like— I said, and you— I remember you quote tweeted it and you're like, oh, of course, Jesus, I didn't know this. Yeah, and that's the thing with a lot of people's paths is they see the success now, but like, just go back 10 years and they were probably doing some weird thing that led directly to that.

[01:23:48] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, and so I guess when I say it, when I quote Tarantino, right, and then people are like, yeah, you know, the survival bias and whatever, it does take it. I do feel it does take like 10+ years. Like, and so it It's all of the people who— so earlier we talked about like the people who try to monetize within a year or try to switch careers within a year. Like all of those people crash into the rocks or something, right? They just— there's something about that, that when you're so kind of forceful about it, it's too stiff and brittle and it's going to break. But if you can be looser and dynamic about it over 10 years and then you survive that long, then you just kind of become almost, just by virtue of surviving that long, and if you have been putting in effort and the update along the way, like just you're automatically interesting, right?

And I think that's part of the idea behind Do 100 Things as well. Like, as long as you're conscious, so there is a failure mode for a subset of people where they do it while suppressing their instincts and their feelings and just kind of, do it to do it, right? It's just, no, the point is you do it while you, you do it as a way of discovery, right? You do it and you see how you feel. I remember the first like 15 YouTube videos I made, like, so I did 100 videos. The first videos I made, I was like, my camera was facing my computer and like, it took me a dozen videos to be like, oh, the sun is here and therefore I should put the camera, like it took me that long.

But Over the course of doing 100 videos, you do along the way, oh, I should improve my camera. Oh, I should improve my audio. And you just pick up these bits of knowledge, right? And along the way, you're like, oh, I should prep my guests a certain way, or oh, I should blah, blah, blah. You just pick up, pick up, pick up. It compounds.

And then eventually you get to a stage where people are like, oh, how is that person so incredibly skilled at what they do? It's just practice. It's a little bit as you go. Yeah.

[01:25:51] Paul: Writing daily on Quora in 2014.

[01:25:56] Visakan Veerasamy: It adds up, man. You can really feel it. Sometimes on Twitter, I feel a bit, I don't know if self-conscious is the right word, but like Twitter is a place for better and for worse, it's a free-for-all. And someone who hasn't been writing very long or hasn't been doing stuff very long can come along and say shit at you. And if you're someone who is, so if you're like me, I'm very like high openness and I would like consider anything anyone's saying. So even when people say stupid shit, I consider it.

I like take it seriously. And so sometimes people say stuff like, oh, you're, I mean, in my head, I'm interpreting. People seldom say you're a bad writer, but like I did receive that feedback when I was starting out as a blogger, like way, way back. People are like, oh, you know, I think it's incomprehensible. You make no sense. And when I received those comments then, I'm like, ah, you're probably right.

[01:26:51] Paul: Of course.

[01:26:52] Visakan Veerasamy: But I didn't see that as I should quit. I saw that as, well, you know, what do I have to do to make it comprehensible? And then you just practice, practice, practice, and you trial and error, trial and error. It's a lot of error. But as long as you survive and you're willing to keep going, you keep getting better. And where was I going with the internet comment thing?

Oh yeah. It's funny because competence is obvious in certain contexts, but not so obvious in other contexts. So like the kind of guy that would say shit in passing in a Twitter reply, he's not going to sit with you for an hour on a podcast call. Like they just don't have— Oh, I have a great story. Once I was doing these Interintellect Zoom calls, right? Which is like a community, it's a gated community.

So people who are there, they pay for membership. And I was doing a free call for II members, but, and I tweeted about it. And there were like multiple people who were like, oh, you know, you only do these calls for this gated community. Like you're getting paid, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you know, I've lived on the internet my whole life. So I sympathize.

I'm like, I understand if you're broke, if you're a teenager, whatever, you just, you want to hang out. So for you guys, I'm going to host my own Zoom call for free for my internet friends. And you know, like a bunch of people showed up. It was a great time, it was wonderful. None of the guys who tweeted that earlier shit showed up. None of them.

[01:28:22] Paul: And I was like, oh my God.

[01:28:23] Visakan Veerasamy: Like, you know, I would love to talk to anyone who shows up. But like, if you show up at like a meetup or something and you have a conversation, like it always goes well. I'm always struck every time I meet someone in person or I have a Zoom call, I see their face, they see my face, we hear each other's voices. It always goes well. So I guess I spend so much time framing myself as like this internet optimist, right, that I sometimes kind of neglect to admit even to myself that some people are just here to just talk shit. And it's like, again, it's their right, but like we have to draw boundaries for ourselves about like what we take seriously and what we don't.

[01:29:01] Paul: The internet can be like a spiritual practice in that sense.

[01:29:05] Visakan Veerasamy: It is psychological extreme sport. I always say it like, it's really, it is an extreme sport. It's a magic mirror that'll drive you nuts.

[01:29:11] Paul: And yeah, it's kind of cool when you get to the other side. Like, I feel like I've seen so many, like, every, I've seen like every form of dunking or take, takedown. So it's like, but now it's just like, oh, it's that kind of Dunking, like, right, right.

[01:29:28] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. So I do.

[01:29:30] Paul: I say like a lot.

[01:29:32] Visakan Veerasamy: Right.

[01:29:33] Paul: And somebody just out of nowhere dropped in on a random other tweet the other day and was like, dude, you say like so much. Like, it's just so annoying. And I just replied, thank you.

[01:29:46] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[01:29:48] Paul: Exclamation point. And then, right, then he says, well, actually, the podcast is really good. 'Here's the link to it. I'm going to share it.' And I could kind of predict it was going to go that way. But 4 years ago, I just would have felt terrible. But also, I do want to get rid of some of the likes.

[01:30:12] Visakan Veerasamy: Get better. Yeah. One of my earliest YouTube videos that kind of blew up was I had a mutual friend introduced me to David Deutsch, the physicist, because I was tweeting about his book. I was so excited and I was so new to having conversations with people online, like in speech. He's like one of my first YouTube guest stars, right? And I was so eager to make sure he had a good time that I was like, like, make, um, yes, interrupting him with a little bit.

I think he had a good time and like he liked it enough that he posted it and he shared it and all those things. But like a bunch of people who saw it were all like, oh my God, you're like the most annoying interviewer. And I didn't even think of it as an interview. I thought of it as a chat. I'm a bit self-conscious about it still. But they were right.

You know, people were right that, oh, you're interrupting your guests too much. And there were some like backhanded compliments that I enjoyed. They were like, no point asking David some of the most interesting questions anyone's ever asked him and then not letting him speak. And I was like, thank you, but also you're right. I should have given him more space. Yeah, for sure.

You know, that mistake is, I mean, mistake, unmissed. I don't know how you want to think about it, but like it's on my YouTube channel as long as I leave it there. And I'm choosing to leave it there because it's like a meditation, right? Like we're not going to be perfect. We're going to embarrass ourselves in some ways. And I think it's a gift.

To be okay with your imperfections in public.

[01:31:44] Paul: Oh yeah.

[01:31:45] Visakan Veerasamy: And to say thank you when someone calls you out on it. And there are all these funny, like, I have this funny meme of this, like, I think Korean or Japanese pop star. I don't even know if she actually said it, but the caption is, thank you, this humiliation will push, this shame and humiliation will push me to do better in the future. And it's just like smiling.

[01:32:06] Paul: There's a dark side of that in East Asia though.

[01:32:10] Visakan Veerasamy: That is true. That is true. Yeah. All right.

[01:32:13] Paul: But also funny. I guess in Singapore as well.

[01:32:17] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. The challenge is to— I mean, I think so what you're right about that. And I think being able to point at it helps.

[01:32:26] Paul: Oh yeah.

[01:32:27] Visakan Veerasamy: Like at least if you can point at it and laugh about it.

[01:32:29] Paul: That's why it's funnier there. Probably.

[01:32:32] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And So this goes back to what we were talking earlier about just agreeing with the letter of the criticism, but not the spirit. So it's like, yes, I say like a lot. Yes, I interrupt my guests.

Thank you for pointing it out. I'm going to learn. I'm going to continue having a great time. And you know, like, it's funny that the person responded with a link to the thing because it is known that there's a subset of commenters online who kind of basically know that if you prick at people, they're likely to get a response. I remember reading about this like on Paramore's LiveJournal like 10 years ago.

[01:33:12] Paul: So it's like they want attention.

[01:33:15] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah, like there's some kind of relevance, right? Because the alternative is you say nothing, you say something bland and you get no response, right? So people are like, oh no, Hayley only responds to like negative comments, so we should start leaving. Even the fans were like, we should start leaving negative comments. So there's a bit of a perverse incentive there, which is why I do think that creators should take the time to show themselves responding to positive comments, like just to set that norm, right? Like, so always look for— I always say look for specific compliments that people give.

Like when, like, you're so great, it's not very— it's nice, but it's not helpful, right? Someone saying, oh, this part really resonated with me because XYZ, that's useful. So whenever someone gives specific compliments, I encourage that and, you know, try to respond in a constructive way. But yeah, it's just— it is a psychological extreme sport. You do have to like manage your psychology so you don't go crazy. Being able to laugh, I think, is very important and being able to not take it too personally.

Which is tricky again, because we know that what draws us to create is something like personal inside. So you are putting your personal self out there.

[01:34:29] Paul: We want to be seen.

[01:34:31] Visakan Veerasamy: Correct. Yeah. But like not in an antagonistic way, right? So you can be like, being nice to people. Criticisms. Yeah, you can have criticisms in a— And I think I've seen multiple times when people are able to criticize from a place of like joy and fun, like you can make friends that way.

Yeah. And it's very much the sense of, you know, I like great conversation. You know, you can even say that it's kind of funny how you say this a lot, but you know, anyway, cheers. Like that kind of thing is like you appreciate the thoughtfulness that goes into it. And yeah, I've made friends this way. Like when people respond positively to these things.

[01:35:09] Paul: Amazing. I think this is a good point to wrap. This is a fun convo. I'll link up to all Visa stuff, all the people we shouted out. It's awesome to see you on this journey as well. I am so pumped.

[01:35:23] Visakan Veerasamy: You too, Paul. Yeah, it's so crazy that we last spoke before the pandemic, and it's like, there's this meme from The Witcher. It's like, I haven't seen you since the plague. It really is. And who knows when we'll chat again and how different things will be the next time.

[01:35:38] Paul: I got married and—

[01:35:41] Visakan Veerasamy: You have a baby on the way.

[01:35:42] Paul: Having a baby since we last chatted. So who knows? Who knows? Next time.

[01:35:49] Visakan Veerasamy: Who knows? Yeah, maybe we'll meet in person the next time.

[01:35:51] Paul: Yeah, come to Austin. Austin is calling you. Stop going to San Fran and New York.

[01:35:59] Visakan Veerasamy: I do have to, I do have to at least visit New York once. I haven't yet, but Austin is like third on my list.

[01:36:03] Paul: Nice.

[01:36:04] Visakan Veerasamy: Yeah.

[01:36:04] Paul: Awesome. There's the great thing about Austin is it's much cheaper. So like everyone has extra bedrooms.

[01:36:11] Visakan Veerasamy: Oh, nice.

[01:36:14] Paul: Fantastic. Great talking with you, Visa.

[01:36:17] Visakan Veerasamy: Thanks for having me.