#133 Creation Without The Ego - Isabel Unraveled on writing, "the chronic state of performing", detaching your sense of self from the work, finding the inner child, paying attention to your emotions, trusting your intuition and why people should stop pretending

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I am talking to a friend, Isabel Unraveled, who has been doing some amazing writing online. She runs the Substack newsletter Mind Mine. Also has been posting some amazing stuff on Twitter. I'm going to link to both.

All of my listeners should subscribe immediately. I feel like Isabel is in a sort of slipstream of just putting super interesting thoughts and deep wisdom onto the page, and I'm pumped and hope she keeps going. Welcome to the podcast, Isabel.

[01:42] Isabel Unraveled: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

[01:46] Paul: Amazing. So we're going to talk about a lot of your writing today. You have a lot of ideas that I think about a lot. I think you're sort of reframing them in a new way and excited to dive into that. The question I start out with for my guests, however, is what are the stories and scripts you grew up with as a kid that told you, here's what you're supposed to do, Isabel, as an adult to be a good person in the world?

[02:14] Isabel Unraveled: It's a great question. I think I've thought about it a lot because I've been thinking about identity a lot and how much of identity just comes from, I guess, what we perceive to be the pillars of our worth as a kid. And it's subconscious, right? Like when you're looking back as an adult on what you thought made you valuable as a kid or worthy or whatever, um, it wasn't so active. You weren't like, okay, accomplishments make me worthy and therefore I'm going to pursue accomplishments. It was just like you got good feedback from the world when you did X, so you pursued X.

And extra hard wide, so you got good at wide. Um, so I also do think though that from a very young age I was very self-motivated and like driven. And even when I talked to my parents about, uh, how much pressure they put on me, or like if they had to convince me to do things, they always very much said that it kind of— they didn't have to push me much. So I'm cautious to attribute what I am going to describe as the, um, thrust of my, like, perceived worth as a child to anything but myself. Like, I, I mean, obviously it was affected by my environment, but it wasn't like being pressured by my environment to do things. I think it was just me observing the world and perceiving what was going to, like, get me somewhere that I thought was quote unquote good or valuable, um, or important.

So I think that I thought basically like hard work and success were important, and I guess I defined success as doing well in school. Um, I was in competitive gymnastics, doing well gymnastics, just getting good results in whatever I was being tested on, which again was mostly school, but also felt like conversations in life. Like, I felt that from a young age I kind of perceived those to be really potent sources of almost like hacks for life. And I definitely couldn't have said that at the time, but I was always very inquisitive and curious around older people, um, like adults, my friends' parents. I like loved asking them questions and always got along very well with parents. Uh, and I think that that was kind of part of some younger self tapping into this wisdom that I didn't like know how to describe at the time.

But, uh, I guess back to the actual question, which is what did I think like made you good or made you worthy? Um, yeah, I think it was just like performance, and that was mostly being derived from school and athletics. And I thought the harder the thing that you could do and that you could excel at, the better you were. And so you should always be pursuing the thing that is hardest if you can do it. Um, and I think that that was like maths and sciences to me when I was younger because it felt like, I don't know, the, the common dialogue around it was like, if you can do those things, then you're quote unquote smart. And if you're smart, then you should do these smart things.

So I actually say that I don't think I had a lot of touch with my interests in high school. Because I didn't think that they were that important. I just thought whatever the hardest thing was, was the thing that I was not interested in, but like should pursue. Because honestly, like my results were pretty consistent across all of my subjects. And so I didn't have a heuristic of results as an indicator for interest. It was just like consistency.

And so I should pursue what's hardest. And that was like math, science, and then I, I went into engineering, um, for university. So yeah, that was kind of, I think it was like hard and good results.

[06:04] Paul: I like that. I remember one of the first things I read, you wrote this essay about ambition. I think you shared it with me a, a year ago.

[06:13] Isabel Unraveled: And true.

[06:14] Paul: I resonated with this. My parents didn't push me super aggressively. That's so common in other people's stories and they have to sort of detach and detangle, but A lot for me was this self-imposed, do these impressive things. And, uh, in some ways it was easier to untangle with that, but harder because I had sort of short-circuited my own curiosity. It sounds like you had lost, sort of short-circuited your connection with your interests too. Um, what was your thinking?

I mean, I know you ended up in finance. that is a common path if you're trying to just be super ambitious and do hard things. Um, what drove you to want to break into that industry?

[07:00] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, it's a great question. I think it was part thinking that finance probably was valuable and high status and, and the things that tend to push people in that direction if they don't have native interest there. Um, and part serendipity. I didn't really know where I wanted to take engineering, though I was pretty sure very early that I didn't want to do engineering as like a career. Um, and I just kind of happened to stumble into the world of venture capital within my first like year internship. Basically after freshman year, I did an internship at a venture capital firm, and honestly, I thought it was super cool.

I was like, this is great, I get to learn about these problems I didn't know existed, I get to be very involved in these like important and significant and executive decisions. And I actually really liked, like, that basically felt like research was my job in a way. And learning about these industries was exciting also because like my exposure to that point, I was like, what, 18, was just studying. Like, so that was so novel, um, actually engaging with the real world and learning about things. I mean, obviously I was reading and everything, but in terms of like practically, practically applying my skills, I wasn't doing that much outside of, um, school. Though I did in university end up like getting into managing like a cafe on, on campus and doing like other things.

Um, I think this was my first taste of like, oh, this is a way I could engage with the real world. That's actually really interesting. So I would say that that was true and wasn't, um, just like a sort of status-motivated interest. But I also felt like I wasn't sure exactly how I could be in that world in a way that was very true to, like, areas and subjects that I was interested in. Um, and also I wanted to, like, try different things. I knew I was initially like very drawn to the world of startups and venture capital because it just seemed like in a way that was like the professional Olympics of jobs where like the highest performing people seemed to congregate.

Um, and I was always very interested in kind of like being near and around that group to try and learn what, like how they thought basically and how they functioned. So, um, I would say that was like my first taste of finance. And then the following summer I did like an entrepreneurship program at my school where we kind of like started a venture over a summer. And then the following summer I went to Singapore to work at a startup. But basically I was kind of cluing into this whole pursue banking and consulting thing just being like a, a low friction funnel for high achievers in around the second year. And I was very suspicious of it.

Because I felt like everyone that I met that was trying to promote these jobs to us, like, didn't really seem to like them that much. That's, that was my impression of it.

[10:15] Paul: Yeah.

[10:15] Isabel Unraveled: And I could be wrong.

[10:16] Paul: So like, I mean, it's probably true, right? I think a lot of these people volunteer for recruiting things to sort of escape the day-to-day grind.

[10:25] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah.

[10:25] Paul: So they're, they're often showing up on campus like slightly re— relieved but not fully in it. So that's interesting. I think I was attracted to consulting for the similar reasons and actually enjoyed it at first. But I love this part you wrote. I feel settled, tethered to the world in a stable, smooth way that feels really comforting. You're talking about now after you've sort of taken a break from work, but this is a noticeable shift from how I felt when I was in a chronic state of performing.

So how did, how did you go from being in there actually enjoying it to this chronic state of performing?

[11:06] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah. Well, to be clear on the timeline, I would say my initial exposure, which was when I was around 18, I was like, this is the best thing I've ever seen because it was the best thing I'd ever seen. And then that was written recently. So, um, several, definitely several years later, at which point I guess I realized like there is a world in which I can be me in the world just purely and as potently as possible, and that somehow be a way to make a life and like make a living. And that idea became very interesting to me. And I started cluing into this idea when basically I started consuming like Tim Ferriss's podcasts in 2017, 2016.

And I was like, this is it. Like, whoever is on this podcast are the people I want to meet. They're the people I want to be more like. Um, I just didn't realize like how many people were out there doing these non-obvious, unconventional things and like absolutely thriving and giving their knowledge away for free on like podcasts and the internet. And I got very into that world, like the entrepreneur, like whatever, content consumption funnel that you get put into when you start consuming Tim Ferriss, basically.

[12:18] Paul: And, um, Same thing happened to me in about 2014. And yeah, there's something magical about podcasts, and maybe it's happening now as we're listening to Isabel for you listeners, but, uh, there's, there's sort of this intimate, like, secret knowledge being funneled into your ears.

[12:40] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah.

[12:40] Paul: And you listen to enough of it and you start seeing your opportunities. I think similar thing with Tim Ferriss, I started, and I didn't even realize it at the time, but it was now I had all these stories of people doing all these different things with their life and I couldn't pretend like that wasn't true anymore.

[12:59] Isabel Unraveled: Right. And so I think that sort of planted the seed of like, there's much more out there than just being an employee, but I didn't really know how to apply that yet. Um, and then over the course of exploring like actually what my true interests were, which started by realizing like it wasn't so easy to get great grades anymore, honestly. Um, I was in a substream or like a stream of engineering that was, uh, focused on applied math and mechanical engineering, but like really the meat of the degree was this theoretical math. And that was like very humbling, like extremely hard. Um, and for the first time I was like, wow, actually maybe the reason I liked school so much was because I was good at it, not because I was actually interested in the things that I was learning.

And then I was like, okay, well if that's true, I wonder what I'm actually interested in because it's— I can't just like keep riding this performance wave forever, especially now that it's much more difficult to. Um, and that's when I got into writing online actually. So I started a blog. That summer when I worked at that venture capital firm, so it was the summer of like 2017, I started writing online. Didn't really know why or what I was doing it. I honestly think it's 'cause I was listening to like an Abel podcast and he was like, if you code, you should, you know, code and like post it on the internet.

And if you write, you should start a blog. And I was like, okay, maybe I'll start a blog 'cause I don't code.

[14:22] Paul: And this is, this is Medium?

[14:25] Isabel Unraveled: No, this was, I actually had a website. I don't think it exists anymore. It was called like Stick With It. I, I was really rocking that. Very like WordPress era, just feeding stuff on the internet.

[14:41] Paul: And this is so common. So many people that people see, oh, Isabel started a new Substack, but always when I find you go back years before, people had already started writing online. Uh, did you have any early instances of connecting with random people, getting some feedback that inspired you to keep going with that?

[15:02] Isabel Unraveled: I think most of the feedback that I got was local slash like nuclear to my life. Um, I wasn't really at all nuclear in just like people in my network. I was like distributing it on like—

[15:14] Paul: I thought you meant like bad outcomes.

[15:16] Isabel Unraveled: Oh no, no, nuclear in like nuclear family vibes, but my community. Um, yeah, I was distributing it on like Facebook and Snapchat and whatever platforms I was using at the time because really I was writing for basically myself and my friends. So I was getting the feedback from those people around me that were reading it, but I wasn't really reaching out to bloggers being like, read my writing. Although every time I sent like a cold email to anyone, which I did a lot of, uh, during school, I always had like a, a related article that I had written basically to link, um, where I could say like, if you wanna know more of my thoughts on this topic or why I'm reaching out to you, it's 'cause I'm very interested in this. I would like link my piece. And that I think was somewhere where I got a lot of good feedback.

Like people would stumble down the rabbit hole of just like reading whatever writing I had put on the website. And, um, I don't know, I think like, I guess the general benefit I've seen of putting writing online, just like maybe the yoke of this answer, is that it, it really helps to cover a lot of context that you don't need to manually transmit to someone. So when you write your thoughts out—

[16:24] Paul: this podcast conversation, for example, right? I can go read hours of your stuff and I don't need to actually talk to you before the convo about what we need to talk about.

[16:36] Isabel Unraveled: Exactly. You can develop what sort of ends up being initially an asymmetrical intimate connection with someone where they know your inner thoughts pretty well. Like there are people that probably know my inner thoughts better than some of my friends because they've read my writing and, um, not everyone does. So it's like you, you actually, I feel like I get more raw at times in my writing than in conversation because I'm talking to myself on the page. So yeah, I have, I feel like I have much less to hide even though I end up putting it out into the world. Um, so yeah, I think that that's how my writing served me when I was younger and I wasn't trying to distribute it.

I always just had a link. To send people.

[17:17] Paul: So you graduate and go to work for this venture capital firm. Uh, we don't have to get into the specifics, but when did things shift from, oh, this is really fun, I like researching all these ideas, to, hmm, wonder if I should try something else?

[17:35] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, so I actually very enjoyed what I was doing, and actually I, I should rewind a bit. So At the beginning of my final year of school, I had just come back from Singapore, which was like my personal enlightenment, I think, or the seed of it.

[17:48] Paul: Um, travel's so common.

[17:51] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, except it wasn't really travels. It was like I was actually very stationary. Like I was basically in Singapore for 3 months and I knew very few people and I'd spent most of the summer reading and writing, like all day reading and writing. I just read like all those books that you start reading when you're like, maybe I have some special thing inside me that I need to like figure out what it is so I can figure out how to cultivate a path.

[18:13] Paul: Like, anything that stood out?

[18:16] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, like Monkey's Soul to Spirality, Man's Search for Meaning, like Essentialism, like The 4-Hour Workweek. Um, just like a bunch of those kinds of— there's something in you, you need to mine it. Oh, also, actually, probably the most important one was How Will You Measure Your Life by Clayton Christensen, which I think we discussed before. Yeah, that book was it. And it was completely random that I picked it up. There was this bookstore in Singapore that was like the best books, like the best business, like all those kind of genres, um, for like super cheap, like used books.

And I saw that book and I was like, well, I'm kind of thinking about this question, so maybe I'll pick it up. And then it turned out I didn't know he had written, um, like Steve Jobs' favorite book, The Innovation Dilemma. I, I didn't even know That at the time I was just like, I like this title. Um, and that, that was probably the most life-changing book at the time because it was super right time for me. And I came back and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna graduate, no job. Like I'm just gonna figure it out.

Like I trust myself. And then my opportunity came up and I thought it was a really great opportunity. And I also kind of had one day thought like maybe I'll go back to venture capital because it seems like a really cool place to meet the right people and to be exploring, um, really interesting ideas. So I was like, I guess this is just happening sooner than I expected, and went for it. And it was really interesting. And then I would say, um, it was kind of— I don't remember exactly the timeline, but at one point I just kind of looked at myself and I was like, this isn't my job now.

I was just like, I don't find myself very interesting right now. I think if I were someone else and I were to meet me, I wouldn't be very interested in who I was. I didn't have very interesting things to say. I didn't have very interesting thoughts. I was just becoming like, I don't know, like generic beige. Like I couldn't— I just feel like I had lost like my personal zest and spark and That was very startling because I felt like until— and that was also the first year of COVID and everything.

[20:32] Paul: So, and who, who were you comparing yourself to? Does it sort of connect to thinking about those people you admired when you were younger, the older role models?

[20:43] Isabel Unraveled: Well, I would say I was comparing myself to myself. Like I was just comparing myself to myself at my most interesting, which is There was just a hunger for more.

[20:53] Paul: You felt, I'm leaving something on the table.

[20:56] Isabel Unraveled: That, as well as I felt like I had let my interests wither. Like, I think this is really the thing. Like, it wasn't that I was hungry to be more, or like be more interesting for the sake of being more interesting. It was like my interests had contracted, and I had actively or passively let them contract by nature of not nourishing them. Like I just stopped writing. I started my job and I just stopped writing, which I hadn't done basically in 4 years.

And I was like, where did that go? Like, how did that just happen? So, um, it was just kind of this looking in the mirror moment and being, and being like, yeah, there's a lot missing from like how I actually identify.

[21:37] Paul: That's awesome. Or it's not awesome, but did that scare you?

[21:41] Isabel Unraveled: It's great.

[21:42] Paul: Seeing, seeing, seeing the writing disappear.

[21:45] Isabel Unraveled: You know, at first it didn't because I was like, oh, okay, I need to back up before I answer this question. My, my current theory is that we need to derive a certain amount of meaning in our life at any given time to feel like just satisfied and content and fulfilled. And at the beginning of my— of like starting a new job, I think it's, it's— you're just learning a lot, so you can get a lot of meaning from just existing and doing your work. And honestly, your brain is like super activated. Like there's just so much new stimulus and new information to learn. And if you're interested in it, then it's doubly exciting.

Like you're just getting a lot of meaning from like something like that, even if it's not your like endgame thing. Which is why I think people tend to have a lot of their like meaning crises around 1 or 2 years into their job because they realize like Oh, now that the novelty of this has faded away, how much of the actual meat of this phase of my life, of this role, of this whatever environment, wherever I am, is really what's meaningful to me. So I think at first it didn't alarm me that the writing stopped because I was like, oh, the writing was just something I did to supplement meaning because I wasn't like diehard interested in every single course that I was taking. But now I'm interested in my job, so like I don't need to write.

And then I realized like there was an element of perishability to that meaning that I didn't perceive while it was, you know, starting to, um, flatten out a bit. And I think that's just the nature of any job and being young and starting something. So I was kind of alarmed that it had stopped, but I wasn't totally because I understood that it was not something like I had just given up on. It was just like I didn't feel like I needed it, but then I did need it. And then I was like, actually, I really do need something to supplement, um, the creative part of my life. So then I went back to it.

[23:48] Paul: And is that what drove you to do things like Write of Passage?

[23:53] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah. So I— so basically, yeah, um, picking up exactly where I just left off. So that was around summer, like the summer, and I was like, okay, you know what, I really need to get back into writing. Also, to this point, I had not met like a single other person that wrote online or just like blogging or like any of this. Like, I really felt— I thought he was the only person in my life that even understood what I was doing. And then I just kind of found David Perel on Twitter.

I also was just getting into Twitter in that summer. Like, I basically wasn't a Twitter user, um, until around then. And then I found David Perel and he's always promoting Write of Passage. I was like, this one's perfect for me. So I emailed him and I was like, hey, can I join the course? Like, I'm kind of young.

I don't know, like, you, this is for me, but I really think that like this is basically exactly what I need right now. And I sent him some of my writing and I was like, whatever, sent, sent an email and he was like, yeah, join. Week later I was in the course and it totally reignited this hunger and joy that I had for writing. It was definitely something about doing it with other people that I didn't realize I needed until I had it. Um, and getting feedback, like all of these things I just was not dialed into at all before. Um, and then just being embedded in a community of writers was just, yeah, it was like this swaddle of comfort that I needed to really make it a priority again.

And it kind of all just tumbled out from there.

[25:28] Paul: I'm laughing when you're saying swaddle of comfort because I'm in the market for swaddles now. And I was on Amazon looking at different swaddles last night.

[25:39] Isabel Unraveled: Oh yeah. You're gonna figure out how to swaddle real tight.

[25:44] Paul: But yeah, I have told David, I'm so grateful for what he's created because it's sort of a, meeting point for the creative weirdos online. And one of the most underrated things people don't appreciate is finding other people that are creating and sharing ideas in similar ways can be more powerful than almost anything else. You don't need the right launch strategy. You don't need the right monetization strategy. Literally just having two other people saying, hey, what I think you're doing is cool. Please keep going.

Be so, uh, motivating. Uh, maybe talk a little bit about, uh, some of the people you met, how that encouraged you to keep going.

[26:29] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, well, I think it was— I mean, it was a number of things. It was like finding people with a ton of intellectual curiosity overlap with me. Um, I felt like a lot of the content and the ideas that I was interested in, I didn't always have like a ton of resonance in just like my local social groups. Um, so finding people that had like literally consumed the same content as me, which basically meant that we had the same interests and like the same principles and values on some level, um, was great. And just like connecting with people in that course, I mean, I connected with Mike who introduced us. So like it was just kind of like things like that.

Like I met people, followed up with them. I was, you know, in the same city, met up with them. Just having smart, cool internet friends, like, was a new thing for me. So, uh, yeah, that, that, that's kind of how I would describe that. It was just like a totally new bubble of my life opening up.

[27:31] Paul: And when, after that course, were you thinking, okay, I want to find a path to leave my job?

[27:39] Isabel Unraveled: No, actually I wasn't thinking that. I honestly didn't really know how writing fit into my life. I still liked my, like, I still it wasn't a dislike for what I was doing that compelled me towards writing in the end, but a deep sense of curiosity for how taking it seriously would look. Um, and I think that's, that's a distinction worth making because, yeah, I was, I was not in pain from actually— not necessarily like it wasn't the contents of my day that were causing me to question it so much, and the curiosity of what my days could look like if I gave my full attention to something, which I had basically never done because I had always been splitting my attention between things. Like, as soon as I started writing, even in school, I was no longer focused fully on school. I was focused on school and writing, and I was also like doing other things.

So I was like, what's it gonna look like if I just put all of the energy that I have into one thing? Like, that was really the curiosity that I had, and it could have been work, but it wasn't gonna be work because I knew I had this writing interest and it wasn't like dying. Like every time I tried to kill it, it somehow sprouted back up. So I was like, I guess it has to be writing then. Um, so it was actually the decision that I, I wanted to see what, how powerful it could be to just do one thing that ended up helping me make the decision. Uh, I don't know if that answered your question, but that really was it.

[29:06] Paul: Yeah.

[29:06] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah.

[29:07] Paul: It does. I think so many people that write see over time that it sort of creeps up on you and then you realize, oh, this is a thing, right? And so I can look back on my path and say, I've been writing consistently my entire life. I just never connected the dots. It was like, oh, I'm just doing this blog or I'm writing for this thing. I'm writing this article for fun.

And then it's, oh, this is the source of so much of my energy and wisdom and like this connected state. So talk me through like eventually leaving your job and deciding to kind of go all in on this writing chapter.

[29:51] Isabel Unraveled: It's funny because shortly before I made the full decision, I went on a trip with my friends to the Dolomites in Italy to go hiking. We did like 4 or 5 days hiking. It was beautiful and amazing and would recommend if you're into that. But, uh, as part of that, there was like very little technology and our packs were— we were trying to be very limited. So I brought this like tiny little notebook like this big with a pen. Um, and one morning I just like sat outside and just stream of consciousness, and I think it was If I had put it on like a specific moment, I think it was like that moment where I was like, if I can climb these mountains and the world is so much bigger than I think it is in my little bubble of back home, like I've gotta be able to figure out how to make this writing thing work.

Like I know I want it deep down and I'm scared and like, I don't know what it's gonna look like and I really don't know what it's gonna look like. Like I have no idea, but the world is big and I can do hard things. Like I should really just try this thing while I'm young enough to try it and while I have enough freedom to have it be fairly low stakes. So I— but I was like so clear of mind then because I just had like no stimulus and lots of time to think. So I kind of forgot about that, uh, like kind of journal entry. And then I reread it fairly recently and I was like, wow, I really just predicted every single thing that happened in the successive next like 3 months.

In that moment, it was just like full clarity, which probably speaks to like the importance of cultivating stillness, which I am writing about. But, um, yeah, that is like one inflection point I would point to.

[31:37] Paul: I love that. And your writing has been awesome. I've been reading it and I feel like there is something being channeled through it, which is really special. Are you feeling that?

[31:49] Isabel Unraveled: You know, I, I am, I am feeling that, but I, I feel like it's been interesting cuz I feel like people have been saying that to me a lot and there's an element of just it being so natural that I'm not thinking like, oh, I'm channeling something. Like it's just, it's there. Like whatever I'm writing is just in me and like in my, I just feel like I don't know where it's coming from. So it's odd. To think of it as a channel, but I do think that that's what it is. And I think honestly, like, something that has helped me share more freely is to view myself as like a channel and a container and not as so wrapped up in whatever the outcome of these pieces be.

Like, whatever I'm putting out, like, it's not— it really isn't about me, even though it is my, like, writing and it's coming through me. Um, and it very much is about me. Like, when those words that I'm talking about my life, it's about my life, but me sharing my writing, like, when I make it about me in my head, it becomes much harder to do it. And when I can just view myself as like a medium for whatever is trying to get out, it becomes much easier. Because then I realize, like, it's honestly— it feels— it feels— and this might be a hot take, but I don't know— I've, I've had to come to the belief that it basically is more selfish and self-absorbed to not share the things that I feel like I could share than it is to share them.

And I know there are definitely people that think it's like self-absorbed and all those things to share, which is, you know, everyone's entitled to their own thing. And there's definitely like an element of thinking that your thoughts are valuable enough that other people might want to read them. Like, you do have to believe that on some level. But I also think making it less like egoic in my head and just making it less about who I am and my identity and more about like what I can get onto the page and hopefully channel, as you said, um, has made it much easier.

So I think initially I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm a channel or I'm channeling anything, but now I would say I have moved closer towards that camp where I'm like, I honestly have no idea where some of this is coming from and It just comes through me and sometimes I read it back and I'm like, yeah, that's, I don't know, like what state I was in when I wrote it. Like it is like, there is an element of, um, mystery to it, even to me.

[34:17] Paul: I love that. I, I totally resonate with the disconnect between what you're writing. I think I've had people say to me many times, wow, I feel like your writing has reached a new level. And sometimes people say that to me, it's sort of something, it's like this, I didn't think this was that good, or I thought this was very obvious. And I, I think your writing has a similar element. I think you've said some things that they're written so simple and it's not a fancy sentence or something, but I read it and I say, oh wow, that it's so obvious when you see it.

It's like this portal, right? Uh, to a different way of seeing things has been revealed when you're the reader. One of those things, like, as you said, related to this, you said, once it's written down, it doesn't belong to you. Yeah, I love that. Because I am in the same camp. I think one of the most generous acts in the world is sharing your writing and ideas with other people.

And people think it's your identity you've put on the page. But what you're really doing is creating these permission slips to other people to say, oh, I think this too, and it's not that crazy. Uh, and then, yeah, you wrote another thing, eroding this psychological block is to decouple your sense of self from the work while still expressing yourself through it. Such a subtle balance. How do you do that in practice?

[35:51] Isabel Unraveled: Wow. Uh, No, it's, it's a complicated question. There's an element of needing to be ready to have this insight click. Like I think if I heard whatever I'm about to say like 2 years ago, I would've been like, this is nonsense and I don't really understand what that person's talking about. So if it doesn't make sense, like it doesn't maybe need to yet, but I think this is true of a lot of things that I've read and learned. I'm like, okay, this is interesting, but it doesn't make sense to me yet.

Um, and then in the moment that I've needed something, I almost like know where to go back to find the thing that now is going to make sense. So this could be something like that for people. But yeah, so my, my, my belief around art, creativity, writing, for me, that's my medium, my channel. Um, when I say it's a medium for self-expression, I mean aside from all the like thought and identity cobweb stuff that like gets in the way of like true, um, clear, unthrottled, like sharing in essence, like how you feel literally in flow state. Like when you're in an amazing conversation where you're not thinking like, how am I sounding? What is this person thinking of me?

What, what do I say to sound like good? When you're not thinking any of those things, but you're just like pure pure output, like it's going mind to mouth, like without anything obstructing it. Um, I think that that's like when yourself is being channeled. And I think when you're in your art and you don't have a sense of time and you don't have a sense of, um, what you're even making, when you're just letting it come out of you, like that's expression. These are kind of extreme examples of expression. I think expression can be smaller things too, like how you design your spaces and how you dress yourself, and all of these things that are small expressions of like your view of how the world should be, how your little world should be.

And I think self-expression is very related to self-trust and intuition. I personally found like the, the more I've cultivated like a connection with my intuition and like my gut feelings, I feel like I have a lot more access to whatever it is I wanna express, which is the self, which makes sense cuz like you're strengthening your connection with yourself and thus you're able to express it. How this varies from identity and like associating yourself too closely with the work is that you— I'm trying to think of the right words to say this.

[38:32] Paul: Well, maybe I can offer, I think the way I think of it is, and this is sort of ties back to what you were saying before, is a lot of people see writing on the internet and they think they're reading like a news site and they're supposed to have like a take, right? Oh, that person's take is this and they think this, that's their identity, right? So when you're writing, you sometimes think you have to do the similar thing, but sort of like when I write something, it's sort of like done, right? And then you're releasing it, but you're still evolving as a person. And when you look back in your writing, you always say, I'm a slightly different take than that. So in that sense, as long as you're not building your life around what you say in your words, you can kind of have this continuous conversation with the world.

[39:23] Isabel Unraveled: And yes, I think of what I would add to what— to this, like, sort of— because I guess I understand why this is confusing to people, because what I'm describing is your art being an extension of you via self-expression. So if your art is an extension of you, then how could it not be attached to who you are? But I think what I'm trying to get at is that, like, your, your container is not defined by the things that you create. Like, you're not as good or as bad as like what people think of your creations. You're not— you, like, you are not— your value is not derived from the quality of your work and what your work is. And when you can kind of separate your sense of like self and your value from what you're creating, you become much less heady about it.

You become much less like, um, analytical about what you're making and you actually get to channel pure creativity because you're just playing. Like, art is play. So if you're just letting yourself be expressed through this thing, like, very naturally, very organically, very seamlessly, then the truest part of you gets expressed in it. And if you say, okay, it's done and it doesn't mean anything about me and I don't have to worry about what people are going to think about me, Isabel, because of this thing I'm putting out, then you feel free to put, put it out like right away. Like you don't have to do this negotiation with yourself. And like, I think that that's worth saying because I felt for a long time that my decisions and my art and all of these things were like this, like just said these deep, deep things about me.

And that slowed down a lot of my life. Like that just added a lot of friction. It made me much less sure of myself because I always felt like everything needed to be logical and pass through all of these different decision trees and like gates of matching my identity, like matching my self-image. And when I kind of let go of that and just said, I am this thing and I am creating this other thing, and I want this to be as good as possible because I want to put my full self into it, but whatever it is in the end will be in service of others and the people that will enjoy it and is like separate for me. Um, I don't know, that just freed me to share a lot more readily and honestly, because when you're so in your head about what your art says about you, and I'm just using art as a placeholder, like whatever you're creating or whatever your work is, is like you can just drop that in.

Um, Mad Libs right into the art. But when you're so worried about what it says about you, it just gets obstructed by like all of this, literally like cobwebs of thoughts that you need to work through. And it just shrinks what it can become because you become so attached to this image of a person that it represents instead of just letting it be art and like be in service of the people that want to enjoy it and that can get something from it.

[42:31] Paul: I have this idea that embracing the cringe is a sort of way to transcend the self. Uh, yes. I think you've written a bit about, uh, embracing the cringe, and I think this is the thing people hold people— that hold people back because inherently when you start, your stuff is going to look silly to other people. Um, how have you thought about embracing that? And you also have Just these amazing simple phrases. You have a couple you've written, follow what felt right.

That was all you're trying to do, right? Mm-hmm. And then during a holiday you were saying, I'm just going to do creative things I enjoy.

[43:12] Isabel Unraveled: And right. Wow. Forgot about that.

[43:13] Paul: It's just these simple mantras, uh, to remind yourself like there's nothing. That's it.

[43:20] Isabel Unraveled: That's, you know, what's so funny though, when you say that, like What strikes me about both of those that you pulled out, that is like pure child. That is like pure inner child. Like, is that all life is? So, I mean, in a way, like, I mean, I'm hesitant to say anything is all of what life is, but I think a big part of it is recapturing childhood as an adult with maturity.

[43:46] Paul: So one thing you wrote after you left your job, you're just saying, oh, I'm just redeveloping all my preferences.

[43:54] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah.

[43:54] Paul: Right. And I've seen this in sabbaticals and when people leave their job, they're just reminded, oh, I like these things. I forgot about them. How much of it was that for you too?

[44:06] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, I mean, I have, I'm trying to keep track of all the things that we just asked, but I have a few different beliefs on that. I think that when you're performing, which is to say when you're portraying an image of yourself that isn't what you truly want to be, or how you want to act or what you want to be doing, the parts of yourself that you're not nourishing start to wither and they start to contract. They start to basically die. And slowly— it's not like death, but I think the self is just like the sum of all its small parts. And when you let some of its small parts begin to fade away, then you basically lose access for them, at least temporarily. You lose access to them at least temporarily.

And then if you decide, okay, wait, I really wanna rebuild these, they're much smaller and lesser than what they once were. However you think of them, like, oh, I had great taste in X, or like, I was so into Y. You have to re— you literally have to like throw sunlight and water on that again and really like nurture it as if it's like this new thing for it to grow back into what it was and then hopefully beyond. So I think when you suppress certain parts of yourself for long enough, they respond by just like stopping to send their signal. Um, and that's what I mean by preferences. It's like your signal, your inner signal just gets weaker when you stop listening to it.

So I, that's what I've been very focused on is like cultivating, you know, nurturing that, honoring that, and paying attention to it. Something I heard recently that I'm really like just trying to develop my thoughts on, so maybe just bring it up in a podcast. But yeah, um, is this idea that like, just like a very anti-emotions take, like an anti-feelings take, that like acting from emotion demonstrates a lack of wisdom or something. And I was like, is that true? Like, that feels very untrue to me based on my experience. I feel the most— I feel the most in my truth, whatever that means, the subjective thing that we're all going to define differently.

When I'm paying attention to my feelings and emotion, when I'm not doing that, when I'm suppressing those things and saying this is like a useless signal, it's just product of evolution and doesn't mean anything to me now, and I should just do pure, um, like objective, like logic and not think about anything, encourage emotion, I feel so far from myself, like so far from myself that I almost don't feel like I have a self because I'm just becoming this this completely programmed thing that is— could be anyone. Like, I feel like emotions and feelings are what makes us us. Like, that's the unique part of you. And I just don't understand how acting in alignment with what you truly feel— because what you truly feel also points you to your true interest, which points you to the thing that you can do best, because you can only do best what we're actually naturally interested in.

If you ignore all that, then you just become some, like, generic person that is not doing anything very interesting at all because you're not even interested in the things that you're doing. They're just outputs from like a decision tree that was objectively generated. That was a bit of a tangent, but yeah, I just think everything comes back to feelings, which is child and inner child.

[47:20] Paul: I love, I love this. And I think your recent essay, the one, The Toxicity of the Toxic Trait, actually brings this alive in an even more powerful way, way, because when you say true feelings, I think a lot of people have short-circuited their emotions at the deep level, the deep, the deep level you felt in the Dolomites, right? That is like the deep wisdom you're talking about, I think. But yeah, the, the reactive, like, oh, I'm just this way, or I like this thing, or I don't like this thing. I think people sort of get stuck at that layer. But there's this deeper pull.

I think for me, opening up myself emotionally enabled me to see, oh, you sort of hunger for more out of life and you need to pay attention to that. And this might wind you down a path in which could be really hard. It might lead you to struggle, but it might also be worth it. And that's kind of my story over the last 5 or 6 years. And yeah, getting in touch with my emotion has been the only way I've been able to keep going. Going, because you have to learn to trust yourself and your interests and what you actually care about.

[48:36] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, I was just looking for my notebook because I just drew— I posted on my Twitter so I could— we can like link it or whatever. Um, but basically there, I've been thinking about what we were talking about earlier, like the child thing, and how your self-trust as a child is like 100%. You trust yourself 100%. And when people tell you to go against your feeling as a child, you're like, why? No, I don't feel like eating that. I don't feel like eating that.

[49:00] Paul: I want that. I want that.

[49:01] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, like, you're just like, this is what I'm gonna do. If you're sufficiently defiant, as I was, that's usually what you'll probably do. Um, but yeah, like, we're just so trusting in ourselves as kids. Of course there are things we don't know. We don't know stoves are hot. We don't know corners are sharp.

We don't know, um, right and wrong necessarily yet. Like, we're learning all those things, and that's why maturity is important. But the level of self-trust that we have as a child, I think, is the thing that we're trying to recapture. And that, to me, is all about emotion. And it's not to say you should act impulsively, which to me is very different than acting intuitively. Impulse rises out of agitation, and intuition rises out of stillness.

And if you are cultivating stillness and you are sitting with yourself enough such that you actually hear the signal of your intuition, You're not acting from a reactionary place. You're not acting because someone bumped into you on the street and you have so much anger and suppressed emotion inside you that you do something really stupid. You're acting from a place of calm. You're acting from a place of being able to weather whatever comes your way. And to me, that is like, that is the place to be. That's like, you have touch with your— you're in touch with your inner child.

You're in touch with your emotions. You're in touch with whatever the self is, whatever that signal you're getting is, but you can handle it with the calmness and stillness that you can capture in maturity and in adulthood if you're willing to basically practice those things. And to do those things, you need to not dislike your life. You need to like your life. You need to have respect for yourself. And that's why alignment is so important.

Like, all of those things aren't as enticing when you could like go and just indulge in escapism because you don't like your everyday. So I think like all of these things kind of fall into place in a cascading effect. It's like a domino. You trust yourself, then you like your life a lot because you're acting out of alignment and self-trust. Then you want to cultivate yourself to like become a higher being because you're so proud of like yourself and you're so excited to do more of your everyday instead of wanting to numb your everyday. And then like everything just flourishes from there.

You're just constantly leveling up and wanting to get better and wanting to enjoy your life more. So Yeah, I think it's all related.

[51:20] Paul: I love that. You're so fired up about these things. What?

[51:24] Isabel Unraveled: I know. I'm like hearing myself.

[51:26] Paul: I love it. And I sense the same thing. I'm sort of— I think a lot of where I get fired up is I'm sort of yelling at my past self. Like, there is this state that exists. You can find it. And why didn't you find it sooner?

[51:42] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[51:46] Paul: What— how does that tie to, like, passion? And I think there's a shortage of earnest optimism and caring in the world. People are so afraid to say, hey, I like writing, I care about it. I'm not making any money, but I'm going to pour my heart into it because I think it matters. Why is it so hard to commit to things?

[52:12] Isabel Unraveled: Well, I think it's hard to take risks, and commitment foregoes a lot of open doors and opportunity, opportunity that you are sold to, that you're getting by not taking risks. So I think the pitch for a lot of, like, the opposite of what we're talking about, the pitch for like taking the safe, the safe path, which is actually risky, but is perceived to be the safe path, which is like keep your job and just do like the things that society told you were valuable when you were a kid and, and just, you know, not go too far from the well-worn path.

[52:49] Paul: Why is it risky?

[52:51] Isabel Unraveled: Why is it risky to commit yourself to things and to trust yourself?

[52:54] Paul: Well, you said the safe path is actually risky. Why do you think?

[52:58] Isabel Unraveled: Oh, well, the safe path is risky because, um, I mean, it's like a different kind of risk. It's the— it's, in my opinion, like, there's a great quote about this. I, I'd love to say that I remember off by heart, but it's basically like, take risks of like bold character instead of risks of weak character. And taking the safe path is a risky path because you still don't know. It's not necessarily leading you to wherever you think you're going to go. And having the desire to do something else and not following that desire is a risk in and of itself.

You're hoping that desire is just going to die. You're hoping that you can be sufficiently happy and content in your quote-unquote safe life that you clearly don't like that much if you're thinking about all the other things you could be doing. Um, so it's risky in the sense that you'll weaken your— the signal you're getting from yourself and, and risk losing parts of yourself by basically not following what you actually feel and want to do deeply.

[54:01] Paul: I feel like you're a bit bolder than me. You're sort of just saying, can we all stop pretending to like these jobs?

[54:10] Isabel Unraveled: Like, that's not—

[54:11] Paul: is there a bit of that in you?

[54:13] Isabel Unraveled: I mean, I think people should stop pretending, period. I don't, I don't really feel like I'm in that. I don't feel like I'm in— I mean, again, maybe that's too broad of a statement. I basically don't want to make it about people's jobs because I think some people like their jobs more than other people.

[54:29] Paul: Oh, for sure. But like, the cities they're in more than other—

[54:30] Isabel Unraveled: it's It's not like about any specific choice or specific thing that people are doing, but more so about figuring out what is pretending for that person and then trying to, to stop, limit, reduce that bubble of their life, whenever that is, whether that's a relationship, a job, a location, um, you're, you're like some bad habit that you're doing that you're hiding from. Like it could be anything. So I think it's about pulling everything into the sunlight, like sunlight's the best disinfectant. And I think when you're pretending and you're avoiding, you can't actually fix these things.

[55:08] Paul: Yeah. And I think what you're really getting to is what— and this is why I start out with what are the scripts you grew up with. I think for many people, they stay tied to these scripts and they perform what they think they should be doing. Yeah. And there's still not great off-ramps. And this is why I think places like Rite of Passage are actually more incredible than people think, because it's this off-ramp to see the world in a new way and then find other people who are saying, yeah, we can adopt these new ways of seeing the world together.

And there's so much opportunity, uh, for leaning into this, into the world right now. And I think that's the thing people are underestimating is that there's a lot of upside to in thinking and seeing the world in the new ways and embracing your creativity that, uh, I think a lot of people are still underestimating.

[56:03] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah. So two comments on that. I think things like Write of Passage on, like anything that basically makes you aware of paths that you don't know exist yet, what it does fundamentally, it expands your worldview. And so anything can expand your worldview. Course can expand your worldview. Meeting a new person can expand your worldview.

Traveling can expand your worldview. Reading can expand your worldview. Anything that is novel to you has the chance to spark something in you that says, wait, whatever that was, I want more of that. And then you can just keep going down that vector of interest. Because the thing about interest is that it is a vector. It's not— it has direction, it has magnitude in terms of the potency.

The interest is maybe the magnitude, but you don't know where it's gonna lead. Like you don't necessarily know the destination you're gonna get to with your interest, but you have a direction to follow. And as long as you take the next step, like the next step kind of appears. Um, so I think that that's what anything that expands what you think is possible does. And that could be content, that could be courses, that could be communities, that could be all of these things, people, accounts on Twitter, like whatever it is. And just back to the stories you're told when you're younger, I think this is an interesting point.

I am very fortunate I had two amazing parents. Love you, Mom and Dad. But seriously, they like definitely, I would say, I mean, they expected a lot from me, but I always felt on some level that there was a trust in me, like that they trusted me to make the right choices. There was a level of not getting too involved in my things, and maybe that was just because, you know, on some level I was a self-sufficient kid and did law school and did all the things that parents want their kids to, to be. But I also, like, even when I, like, when I quit my job and did this, which was like, I'm quitting my job to do question mark, basically. Um, yeah, explaining that to my parents, I was like, I don't really know I'm gonna do that.

But they took it pretty well. They were like, okay, well, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Like, you're you, so like, you'll just, you'll, you'll do it. And I feel like that was honestly probably the most important vote of confidence of like anyone, maybe including myself, because I was just kind of taken aback by the fact, like, because I guess how I would have answered your question a while ago is like, I viewed myself as valuable for my achievements because I was getting a lot of, um, like praise and reward for my achievements. But when I look back, I actually think I was just getting love, like, period. And Um, I think, you know, and she went to maybe made that a more frictionless medium and there was a lot of opportunity and everything, but I just think like my parents loved me a lot and they trusted me a lot.

Maybe a part of that was the achievements, was just proving that I could like do the things I wanted to do. But I feel like good parenting is basically letting your child become their true self and in a way trying to help get those obstacles out of their way to become their true selves. Not excessively, because like friction and resistance are clearly good. Um, but— and I don't want to say clearly good, but I do, I do believe that like resistance is important. Um, but yeah, I think good parenting is, is really about like letting your child do their thing. And I think a lot of challenging things come in early adulthood for people that didn't feel like they could be what they want to be, um, and feel a lot of obligation to the narratives that, as you're alluding to, um, they grew up with.

And I really like bow my head to the people that are like unraveling and figuring out what their definition of success is after having such a rigid definition of success growing up. I mean, we all did to some extent, but it's hard work, like figuring out what success is to you.

[01:00:11] Paul: So definitely, and I'm still figuring it out. Uh, unpairing from the default path, uh, is only the start of a new journey. And yeah, I think similarly, I grew up with a lot of love from my parents. I think, yeah, slightly different though. They were surprised when I expressed some of the freedom that they enabled for me.

[01:00:34] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah.

[01:00:35] Paul: They're like, wait, wait, you, you're gonna like go, uh, really just follow what you want? Um, but, uh, yeah, a lot of what they did has enabled me to thrive on this new path and I think they're starting to see that, which is, uh, really cool.

[01:00:52] Isabel Unraveled: Yeah, for sure. I mean, there was definitely confusion. I don't wanna, I don't wanna act like it was, you know, so seamless.

[01:00:58] Paul: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:00:59] Isabel Unraveled: They threw me a quitting party or anything, but they were just kind of like, we're not gonna dissuade you, so we might as well accept this decision.

[01:01:05] Paul: Um, me, me and my wife, me and my wife joke that, uh, our daughter is probably gonna be like hardcore, like wanna become a CEO and make fun of us for being self-employed. They'll, she'll just like rebel against That's what we're doing. It goes like that sometimes, you know, you can't really quite plan these things, but, um, yeah, that, that's beautiful. What you're sort of new to this writing journey. I think what you're doing is amazing. Uh, what kind of support do you need?

What, what are the questions you're trying to figure out? Uh, what's next for you on this journey?

[01:01:42] Isabel Unraveled: Um, you know, I think one of my biggest strengths, and like many, like most of our biggest strengths can also be like something that leaves a void in other parts of your life, is that I think I'm naturally a very present person. I think something that I didn't realize was that I was very present until like, yeah, I guess it just feels like a lot of people don't have that. Like they exist in the future, in the past a lot, and I, I obviously do that to to an extent and like probably more often than I'm aware of. But I think I've always been someone that's been very like where I am and I try to like focus on where I am and I have goals and like goals.

But I think when I get too in my head about where it's all leading on too macro a scale, um, it just takes me out of the moment and like it takes me out of the ability to continue doing the thing that's making everything work, which is have my attention in the present. So I'm hesitant to answer it because I have some ideas of where it's all going and what next steps are and everything, but I think the next step is to be in the next step, which implies that I need to be in this step. And I guess what I mean by that is I'm hesitant to project, and I just kind of think like it will all be dependent on my ability to continue being present and doing what I'm doing.

[01:03:11] Paul: I love that. It's— I actually think this is the right way to have goals. I think far too many people start to short circuit or fast forward and end up burned out. Uh, once you've found the work worth doing, uh, just build your life around that and let it rip. and see where it takes you. I think that is so fun.

I had this feeling in 2018. I sensed that writing was really important. I couldn't explain it to anyone, tell anyone where I was headed. I didn't have any goals, but I just came up with this mantra, write most days, and still doing it. And still doing it seems, seems to be doing, uh, Okay. Uh, and it is cool to see other people finding similar things.

Like it's, I'm so inspired by people like you that just dare to follow this kind of path. So keep going and we'll be rooting for you.

[01:04:13] Isabel Unraveled: Um, yeah, I, I do like, I do maybe wanna add like one layer of nuance that I think directionality is important. I think, yeah. Having a sense of where you're going while not knowing exactly what the place you're gonna get to looks like to the T is important. I think like speed, no direction, just motion, that's not where you wanna be. You wanna be like having velocity, which is like speed with direction. And I wrote a piece about this called Forward Momentum, and it was all about finding a place where you could build forward momentum.

And I feel like that's what I'm doing. I'm like, moving in this direction that I trust and that I like. I don't know exactly where it's gonna end or where it's gonna stop or if it's ever gonna stop. To your point, you're still doing what you decided in 2018, but I feel like I'm in the right direction and that's kind of the most important thing to me right now.

[01:05:08] Paul: I love that. Where can people learn more, find more about you?

[01:05:13] Isabel Unraveled: Uh, yeah, Substack, I guess, and Twitter. Twitter, I'm pretty active on, perhaps too active on. But, um, yeah, Isabel Unraveled on Twitter with one L on both the Isabel and the Unraveled. Um, and then on Substack, my Substack's called Mind Mine, mindmine.substack.com. So those are probably the two best places to find me right now. You'll find me.

[01:05:38] Paul: Fantastic. Thank you for joining. It's great talking to you today.

[01:05:43] Isabel Unraveled: Thanks so much for this conversation. This is great. I think I, um, had a little more energy than I expected on some of the answers, but hopefully you got something good. And thank you for having me. Great questions, Paul.