#157 Parenting & Our Future - Paul & Angie Check-In on Five Months of Parenting, Unexpected Happiness, Parenting Scripts, and The Time Bucket Exercise from Die With Zero

[00:59] Angie Check-In: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life.

[01:14] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path podcast. My name is Angie Check-In. Today, my— today on the show, is my co-host Paul Millerd.

[01:23] Angie Check-In: Here we are.

[01:25] Paul: Okay. By the way, my name is Angie Wong, not Angie Millerd. We have this joke a lot of times we went on family vacation.

[01:33] Angie Check-In: So we have our baby monitor ready. We have a 4.5-month-old ready to go. So we may have to cut this short if we get interrupted, but I'm ready to go. You came up with an agenda for us. Awesome. Maybe talk about what we're planning on doing today.

[01:51] Paul: We're talking about creators as parents or parents as creators, basically our reflections on what it's like to be a parent while creating online for the past 4 months. So for the past 4 months, our daughter was born. We went through 2 months of basically like a quarantine period for both of us. Well, not really, that we'll talk about later. Then our parents visited from Connecticut and from Taiwan. We hang out with Michelle with tons of our friends, and we went on a family vacation in the Northeast.

These sounds like random events, but they will actually be very important when we talk about what it's like to be a parent and a creator later. We're going to talk about what's surprising and unexpected about being a parent and what's surprising and unexpected about our work or creative projects. Then today we are going to do a time bucket exercise, which is— if you subscribe to Paul's newsletter, you will know it's from the Die With Zero book, where we're going to talk about for the next couple of years, what are the dream to-do lists we have for each time period. Okay, so Let's recap. What is the most surprising and unexpected thing about being a parent for you?

[03:11] Angie Check-In: So such a big question. So I do want to correct the initial intro. We haven't really been like creating and doing the parent. I feel like we've been like prioritizing parent.

[03:24] Paul: That's part of the conversation.

[03:26] Angie Check-In: Number one. But I think the most surprising thing is how awesome it is. I just get so much day-to-day joy out of one, seeing you with Michelle and also just being with her. I think I had this like, it's so hard to anticipate what it's like going to be like becoming a parent. Everyone says all these things. There's all these societal scripts.

Oh, once you do this, you're never going to be able to— you have to figure this out. And it turns out that you basically just can't put words into describing how awesome it feels. And I think I quickly updated my mental model of how I was going to spend my time to basically I want to prioritize parenting above everything else because it's fun and enjoyable and sort of like push down work, still keep fitness and health up, but definitely deprioritize work more than I expected.

[04:22] Paul: I will talk about creative and work more in the second session. And I agree with you. I think the most important thing is I was surprised by how our happiness level was so much higher than, than we were before pre-Michelle time. And I think when I was, I was reading Emily Oster's book Cribsheet, which is the book she talks about, she investigated like, she read through those longitudinal studies and then she found out different aspects about parenting. And then one of them is One of them says on average, the quality of marriage or like the satisfaction— can't really pronounce this— satisfaction degree of marriage dramatically drops after your kids are born because you barely have time to talk about like— we barely have time for each other anymore. All your focus is on kids.

But for me, that's absolutely the opposite. If my happiness level, like the most— the happiest day I had pre-Michelle is a 10, then now it's 100. Like, I'm not even joking. You know, like, I think especially when I was a nomad, like nomadic life is sort of like, yay, I'm in heaven, I'm creating, like life is awesome. But there is a certain type of like aimlessness that like that void feeling. Yeah, like I will be on the beach and then on a Sunday afternoon I'm like in this heaven-like beach sitting in a coffee shop eating gourmet food and drinking coffee and writing, but I just feel like there is something lacking that I don't know what it is.

But now on a Sunday morning we did literally nothing but just pick Michelle up from the bassinet and then put her on our lap and play with us and see her laugh. That is like the happiest thing I've ever experienced in my life. Like the level of joy is like something just overflowing out of your body and like attacking your head. Like you're so happy, you're so happy, you're so happy. This kind of feeling.

[06:30] Angie Check-In: Yeah, I think, well, I think this was the disconnect between us on that path. You always felt like you didn't have what I had, which was I had sort of fallen into work I love doing. And you— it was easy for me to write about like the traps people get into on a creative path because I saw you struggling with not finding your thing. So thank you for the inspiration for the writing. But yeah, I think also I knew you loved kids and it's been just so cool to watch you with the kids.

[07:08] Paul: I mean, for me, before this, I also feel happy creating, but the happiness level is just incomparable. And on the flip side, is it a meaning thing?

[07:18] Angie Check-In: Do you feel like there's like your days have more substance?

[07:22] Paul: It's like, you know, there is a void, but you don't know how to fill it and you don't know what is the shape of the void. And after Michelle came, I was like, okay, that is actually for Michelle to fill. Sorry, Michelle, I'm putting a lot of responsibility on you now. Don't disappoint your Asian tiger mom. Just kidding.

[07:43] Angie Check-In: Yeah, well, that's, that's amazing because like my big question last year was how do I help Angie thrive in the US? And it turns out we just had to have a baby.

[07:55] Paul: That's crazy. I think like before this, I'm not sure if we shared in our previous episode, but I feel so ashamed of admitting that I want to be a mom, like in this era where people say you should be killing it in a career field and then don't let your mom identity encompass everything, everything about you. But I was like, so I intentionally toned down my desire or like trying to persuade myself that I want to be a mom, but not that much.

[08:23] Angie Check-In: Like trying to fit into the US kind of?

[08:26] Paul: But fortunately, I have a lot of cool creator friends in Austin who also did not avoid talking about how much they want to be a mom at the same time. And that, that's such a huge encouragement. Um, the— so this is actually relevant to the other thing that is in my reflection. So I'm gonna go first. The other thing that I'm surprised is, um, the suffering about being a parent is not a suffering. What does this mean?

So before, before this, when we were Nomadic in Mexico in 2020, I started to have like this really compelling desire of wanting to have a kid. But whenever I hop on my motorcycle and I want to go somewhere, I always thought to myself, do I really want to give up this freedom of just doing whatever I want any time of the day? Is it really worth it? And every time I was in a social situation or like a coffee shop or restaurant and seeing how the mom or dad is like struggling trying to comfort their kids. I was like, nah, I don't think I want to suffer through that now. Or like in a very hot day when you are walking on the street, you're already sweating all the time.

This is one of my concerns when I was in Austin. I was like, I'm sweating all the time without a kid. Like how can I suffer through those like even more sweaty time when I have to wear a kid on my body?

[09:45] Angie Check-In: Well, it is too hot in Austin for kids right now.

[09:48] Paul: But post— so recently there's one occasion where I was literally pulling, pushing a stroller on a super hot morning and I was sweating all over and I am still so happy. And I see people driving by looking at me pushing Michelle. I was like, maybe they think I'm very pathetic because that's what I thought like other parents were before Michelle. And then I realized one thing, that everything you experience about being a parent is a totally different metric as compared to not being a parent. It's like being a career, being in a traditional career field and as a digital nomad, how, like, how, like, how, why, why are you so brave to like go out of the traditional path? Don't you afraid that you're not going to be able to like get a raise anymore after you come back as a digital manager.

What is the question?

[10:48] Angie Check-In: Yeah, 190 pages to explain that.

[10:51] Paul: Yeah, like it's like, oh yeah, okay, that's a joke. It's like that is not a valid question because you don't want to— you are not— you're no longer valued by the metric of the previous world you're in. And being a parent is like that.

[11:05] Angie Check-In: Yeah, people say that all the time. Don't you worry about money. And it's like, yes, and all these other amazing things.

[11:12] Paul: By the way, am I rambling?

[11:13] Angie Check-In: No.

[11:14] Paul: Okay, keep going.

[11:16] Angie Check-In: People are here for you. People watching, leave a comment in the comments below and tell us we want more Angie. It's basically all the feedback I get from listeners. When's your next episode with Angie? But yeah, I relate to that. I mean, when I'm crying, when she's crying, crying with me, I think it taxes my nervous system a little less.

It's still like pleasurable in a way that's hard to explain. Hard to explain.

[11:45] Paul: Okay, that, that is maybe less for you.

[11:48] Angie Check-In: No, but like when you're holding her, it's like kind of upset. It's still like time well spent. I don't feel like I wasted that time or like it's not time I want to skip.

[11:59] Paul: I mean, as a highly sensitive person, I like to label myself As a highly sensitive person, sometimes the crying is a little bit hard to handle. But I do agree, like, those mundane tasks, washing kids' clothes or preparing a bottle, it's so enjoyable. I was just like looking at the tiny socks, the tiny onesies that I was putting in the laundry, in a drying machine. I feel so happy and I feel so blessed. Oh my God, I can't believe one day I will be able to wash baby clothes. I'm so lucky to have you.

And like when Michelle is crying, sometimes I'll just say, you can keep crying, but mommy gonna dance with you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just doing all sorts of silly things with her. And that is the best. Seriously.

[12:45] Angie Check-In: What's next on the agenda?

[12:48] Paul: Okay, you're done with this. Okay. I am surprised by how fast they grew. What about you?

[12:55] Angie Check-In: I mean, not that surprised. I mean, it's I think it's more like how fast they change. Just looking back at the pictures of 4 months ago, it's like, oh my gosh, like this big. Now all of a sudden she's like 4 times the size and so heavy. I think it's just like the day to day. Yeah, every day is different.

You're just sort of like powering through and it's hard to notice the changes and the day-to-day, but like week to week and month to month is pretty wild.

[13:29] Paul: I actually noticed a difference every day. Every day when I approached her bed, I was like, wow, you look different again. But I felt— I thought—

[13:37] Angie Check-In: her face changed a lot in the first few weeks.

[13:39] Paul: Crazy. I thought I would only have the reflection of, oh my God, I can't believe how much they changed. Maybe when she was 1 or 2 years old. And but now just like I remember the day when maybe within 2 weeks she was born. I was, I was watching Netflix. Sorry, I was watching Netflix.

And all of a sudden I looked at her and like her head is just like on my palm. And she is just literally only on my forearm. And it was so tiny. But now like I keep every day I'm saying I can't believe she grows so fast. And I think there is this amazement, this surprise sentiment involved, and there is also a little bit of scarcity involved. Like, how much time do I have with her?

And I think at the beginning I cried when I think about one day she will go to college, she will marry someone else. Those Instagram reels are real.

[14:38] Angie Check-In: It's a David Whyte quote: everything worth doing will break your heart. Or something like that.

[14:45] Paul: Let's talk about our creative project and our work aspect of this parenthood. What is surprising and unexpected for you?

[14:58] Angie Check-In: I think, I think the thing I didn't anticipate was the context switching. So going from like holding Michelle for 2 hours and trying to get her to calm down and feeding her, and then I just can't go type a deep, thoughtful essay after that. I basically have just like radically ramped up my, my Netflix consumption of like random, silly TV shows. And yeah, we're, we're basically trying to do this on our own. We're not doing like the daycare thing. I think that's intentional.

I didn't like For me, that's designing life around work. Like, I respect everyone's choices, but I wanted to— we basically wanted to test, like, can we do this on our own? And yeah, I think it's, it's sort of worked. I think the way we operate is like very day to day and we sort of just adjust what we're doing. We prioritize like the different things we're doing, look at each other's schedule and try to fill in the gaps. I think it's like more or less worked.

But yeah, I have not been able to do that much work, which has been fine. I've sort of been blessed with book sales from heaven. Shout out Ali Abdaal if you watch this. But yeah, and just other things happening. I had a bunch of strategy workshops at the beginning of the year that worked out and I surpassed like our Thriving Life income in the first like before we had the baby, which was a crazy experience for me. I think our thriving life income last year when we calculated was like $70,000 or $80,000.

So yeah, we hit that pretty early. And to me, that's permission to lean into being more present with being a parent.

[16:52] Paul: In Chinese, we have a saying called xiaohai zi dai liang cao, means Don't worry about where would money come from if you want to have a kid, because the kid will bring the money they need into this world.

[17:06] Angie Check-In: I like that. What's it translate to in English?

[17:10] Paul: Kids will bring their own food. Oh, nice.

[17:13] Angie Check-In: She didn't bring her own.

[17:15] Paul: It's much more poetic in Chinese.

[17:17] Angie Check-In: I think it makes sense. Like in the US, everyone's so obsessed with like, oh, it's too expensive to have kids, but it's I mean, if you have kids, people are going to help you more. Like all our parents, like they're more invested in the grandchildren than they are us, which is how it should be. But like, they're not going to let her starve. They're not going to let her suffer. We're lucky to live in a world with more resources than 50 and 100 years ago.

Yeah, I don't really worry about that stuff. I sort of think it will take care of itself. And it's so obvious to me that I'm going to work hard for her. Like to meet her needs, I'll go without clothes. Like I have this great new shirt now. I'm just going to let her wear this for the next 10 years.

[18:01] Paul: I can't go without clothes, unfortunately.

[18:04] Angie Check-In: You don't buy that many clothes though.

[18:05] Paul: I also like one thing about her and Ting is, okay, before, like I feel like, oh, when I was very young, like 20-something, I look at moms or like my mom who doesn't— who just like wear like super ugly clothes. I said, oh, God, I never want to be a mom. And now like I'm wearing these clothes for literally like maybe 7 days and I haven't changed and I haven't showered for like— okay, that's beyond what we're going to talk about today. But I sort of agree and disagree what you said about creative project at work. I think for me, what I realized is, and I also know like a lot of moms agree about this, well, agree on this, which is with our, my, my quality, my relationship, the quality of my relationship to Michelle will actually be higher if I can be having my own space.

And so I surprisingly found out maybe 1 or 2 months in, even though I am still tired from all the like lack of sleep at night, I am craving for something to do. Doesn't matter if it's work or creative project. And I agree on the writing stuff. It's really hard to do context switching for writing because you have like, you need to gather thoughts and you need to think if it makes sense for the previous paragraph and where are you going next. And it's just hard to do writing. It's also hard to do something that needs a stretch, a continual stretch of a few weeks like a core-based course.

I signed up for Write of Passage for maybe the first or second month after Michelle's delivery day. I completely dropped the ball. But one thing that surprised me is how I quickly pick up art project that I haven't done for, for like maybe 2 years. I was doing mandala, dot mandala when I was in Mexico at that time. I had a script that—

[19:55] Angie Check-In: on stones.

[19:56] Paul: Yeah, on stones. Basically, you pick anything that has an end like a pen or like cotton swab or a professional dotting pencil. And you just, just put it on acrylic paint and then put it on something else like a notebook or stone. For me, when I was in Mexico, that was how I started my art journey, but I abandoned it and I started learning watercolor because I thought the reason why I love mandalas is because it's so easy. You don't need to learn how to match, how to mix paint, and it's like, it's like a no-brainer to as an art beginner.

And so I abandoned it, but now it becomes something that It's so easy to do as a parent because the, because the quality of the paint they need, it dries very fast and you can just do part of a project when you are on like a, like a break in between Michelle waking up and you can do another part of the project on a break when Paul is taking, when Paul is taking care of Michelle. So I started to do that again and I found out it put me into flow than anything else. And after I did the project, I also feel like I can have more, like have a better quality spending time with Michelle too. And so I think that's what's surprising for me.

[21:11] Angie Check-In: That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I've actually been a little more creative too. Like I started a file for my second book. I'm like dumping thoughts. Like I think I've had a lot more time to think. I was doing a lot the year before Michelle was born.

So yeah, doing that, the podcast has still been rewarding. And then I think I've been prioritizing like in-person socializing and fitness, which has been just really important for me over the last 6 months.

[21:39] Paul: Yeah, there I felt when before, before delivery day, I imagined the first month of taking care of baby is like literally like living in a cave, both of us just lack of—

[21:52] Angie Check-In: what's for you? Yeah, it's very hard.

[21:55] Paul: Yeah, so it's like, but I was imagining both of us sleeping, both of us not hanging out with anyone, lock our door and just do everything, lack of sleep and barely handling ourselves. But we're actually handling ourselves pretty good. We also have a very— we also have a baby that sleeps very well, so we are blessed by that. But then I also realized like Paul doesn't have to be home every time. Like whenever I can take care of Michelle, he should go out, he should go get some sun, he should go, he should go to the gym and hang with people. Because like one of us has to be thriving so that person can come back and provide more energy for the relationship for the other person to keep going.

And for me, I think I talk about it in my podcast which I'm still editing, but I think postpartum is the hardest and there's something that we never just imagined will be occupying such an important role. And because people talk about babies and like how they need to sleep, eat all the time, but no one talks about moms. And when we did our previous episode, we also really touched on that because it's literally unknown, unknown for us. And man, those 8 weeks postpartum, it's so hard for me. I think I really have a dip in my mental health, just not being able to move my body. And even though like I was like, Paul, you should go to the gym.

And then every time he went and then he come back, I'll be like, pissed and not wanting to talk to him because my body just not recovered to the extent that I can go to the gym yet. But he's been super supportive. So after that 8 weeks of dip passed and then I— my body is recovering better, I started to move a lot and I move like I did way more than I am— I was doing before then compared to my pregnancy too.

[23:36] Angie Check-In: I was— I didn't— I was not comfortable going to the gym in those first 2 months. But I was just obeying your, your orders. The— I just, I would get so nervous leaving you home. Like, you're in such a fragile state, just physically and psychologically. It's a lot. It was, it was actually like the easiest time with Michelle, I think, because they sleep so much in the first month.

Everyone acts like you need help like the first week. It's actually like you need more help the longer you're going. And it depends on the baby. Baby. But yeah, I remember being at the gym and like I used to do like 2 or 3 rounds of like sauna and ice bath, take my time, which was a great thing I did before the birth. Like I think we both just like really took a leisurely approach to life.

Um, but I would like go and I'd do like, all right, 10 minutes sauna, 2 minutes ice bath, work out for 20 minutes and like rush home.

[24:36] Paul: Oh, I didn't know that.

[24:38] Angie Check-In: Well, I just like didn't want to leave you for too long.

[24:43] Paul: Yeah, if you told me, I would probably like, you don't have to do it, just stay as long as you want. And you come back like, why you stay for so long?

[24:50] Angie Check-In: No, I think, I mean, you've been 100% supportive of me, and I think we both just tried to make sure we're still our own people. Like, you're doing capoeira, you're doing yoga, breathwork, different fitness stuff. I'm still doing stuff and like I think that's been the key to staying mentally strong as parents.

[25:13] Paul: In terms of having help though, I do think it's a comparable, comparative thing. Before my parents and your parents came to help around the 2-month mark, I literally don't think being a parent is that hard. Yes, there are moments where I, I just feel so tired and I want to sleep, but Paul wasn't available. But it's, I mean, it's fine. Like Michelle sleep a lot and like we are very happy most of the time until our parents came and take care of them and we just nap whenever we want. I was like, oh my God, I did not realize how tired I was before this.

And so I actually, I usually don't show my weakness to my mom. I just want to, I just want to be like a very tough daughter. Like I don't need her help. But when my mom was here, I actually told her, You know what? It's so nice to have you guys here.

[26:03] Angie Check-In: Nice. Well, I think it's just so hard on you. I mean, you're doing the feedings at night and I was getting up early in the morning and I was trying to do a lot. I mean, breaking up your sleep at night is just going to wear you down so much.

[26:19] Paul: Mm-hmm. Yeah, like we did not expect how much the kid needs the mother. Literally want to smell us.

[26:29] Angie Check-In: Especially in the first 2 months, like I was useless in some moments. Yeah, it was very clear like she needed you.

[26:39] Paul: Do you want to talk about the time where she didn't eat for 2 days and then what happened?

[26:44] Angie Check-In: When she didn't eat? What do you mean?

[26:46] Paul: Maybe that time. All right, so there is one time, there is 2, there is this 2-day stretch where she just wouldn't eat. She'll be so hungry and crying and whatever we We tried to feed her the formula, she just wouldn't eat, and she would only want to come to me for nursing. But I have a very low milk supply, which is a struggle at the beginning, and it's really hard on Paul. And I remember I did this thorough research on internet articles on how to build relationship for your kid and the father so they have a stronger bond. They don't want to just rely on mom.

And after 2 days, we found out actually it's the nipple of our bottle is clogged. So whenever we try to feed Michelle, there's no milk coming out. And then we literally starved her for 2 days.

[27:33] Angie Check-In: I don't think it was 2 days.

[27:34] Paul: It was like 1.5 days. And so I was like, sorry, Michelle, we fucked up. We're new parents. Just forgive us.

[27:41] Angie Check-In: You're going to make some mistakes, but you're going to learn. All right. Should we move on to the next topic? We still talking about parenting?

[27:50] Paul: People love this stuff. We're deciding what people want to hear. Comment on the— Comment on the video below what you like to hear. Um, so now that we have our kiddo and we have started to have different imagination about our future, let's talk about time bucket exercise.

[28:09] Angie Check-In: Yeah, so quick recap, I read this book, uh, Die With Zero, and we've done a lot of reflection exercises. We did the LifeBook exercise, uh, 6 months after we met where we went through 12 categories of our life and talked about it for like 6 hours, almost broke Angie with my need to talk about these things. We've also done Designing Your Life, life plans. And our, our goal always is like, how do we imagine different possibilities for our life? Which I think is so important because we're from different countries, we're from different cultures, and we sort of have to create our own culture because we don't have a default. And yeah, this book Die With Zero, basically makes a very persuasive argument that far too many are saving too much for too late in their lives.

And he has a sentence in there. It's like, do you really want to be walking the Roman steps in— or I forget. Yeah, the Roman steps in your 90s. It's like, oh, probably not. Like, why am I saving? Why are people saving so much money?

How can we give money to our kids earlier so that they can thrive and unlock possibilities and memories and experiences? And it's like, I love it. It's like such a good companion with my book, I think. And there's this exercise, it's like time buckets, group your time into different buckets, and then imagine different activities you want to do. And I thought there are two cool uses of this. One's just imagine more possibilities.

And then also like push things off into the future. I think Bill Perkins, the author, was saying he had his Alaska cruise in his 70s. I was like, yeah, it's like about right. I don't really want to do an Alaskan cruise while I can still like walk and explore and bike around cities and stuff. So we haven't talked about our—

[30:00] Paul: Yeah, we are going to talk about our different time buckets. But before this, since it's very similar to other life design exercise, I think it's good to give our listener a context of how our life design changes over time. Before this. So we both, as you said, we both did our—

[30:17] Angie Check-In: we both did one before we met. I just pulled up my 2018 one before I moved to Taiwan. Literally 5 years ago.

[30:24] Paul: I think I also did one. So that's from Designing Your Life, the Odyssey planning, 5-year Odyssey planning. You will have 3 choices, which is the first one is what is the next 5 years look like? If you just continue to live your life right now? And I think the second one is what is your dream?

[30:45] Angie Check-In: Yeah, it's like, what if— yeah, what if your alternative life and then what if no one would laugh? I only have one of mine though.

[30:53] Paul: Yeah, the third one is— oh yeah, no, the second one is if no one would laugh and you can live your dream life, what would it be like? And the third one is if money and fame is not a concern, what would you do? So I want to talk about my first. I think I also did it in 2018.

[31:09] Angie Check-In: Yeah, I had another one where I imagined I would meet somebody, but I do not have a picture of that.

[31:15] Paul: I also do not have—

[31:16] Angie Check-In: this is my work one where I don't have to work for corporate salaries by year 4, which I did accomplish. Well, kind of in my terms. Yeah.

[31:25] Paul: Can I go? Go. So the first one I was working at in a I think 10 at a time as like a product researcher. And I list out for the next 5 years, I will professionally, I will become a PM and then become a manager and become somewhere like, and I feel so doomed writing those, but they are also the most real answers though. And also maybe during my third or fourth year, I will meet a guy where I can form a family and eventually have a kid. And I feel so sad writing those down because As I was talking with my other— with my girlfriends the other day, like, I think men don't understand how hard it is for us to find someone that we truly love and want to get married.

But I guess it's probably the same for me too. Yeah, in general, just so hard, and we feel so vulnerable writing an answer. Like, okay, it's a human problem.

[32:26] Angie Check-In: I think we both gave up on finding someone. Before, like right when we were doing those life plans.

[32:32] Paul: Yeah, I feel so vulnerable writing those down, even though those are my true desires. And my second one is what I really wanted to do at the time, which is quit my job and become a personal trainer, and then maybe have my own business and then running a gym, and then maybe run like a global gym or something. The third one is become a surfer in Hawaii. The second one, as we know, both later become true. I didn't own a gym, but I become a personal trainer and have my own online fitness business. Not really business, I created a course to have my own income.

But the third one, the third one, the most interesting one, what if money and fame is not a concern and people's thoughts about you is not a concern? I did went to Hawaii and I found out I did not want to live in Hawaii and I did not want to become a surfer. So I crossed it out and over the next few years I have different versions coming up. But after I met Paul, those versions are all super similar. I feel like every day I'm already living my dream life. I don't know, maybe I'm just like changing a little bit of the projects I'm doing or the places I live, but I'm basically living my dream life.

Just that at that time I didn't know how good it would be with Michelle yet.

[33:41] Angie Check-In: Yeah, so, so mine, I wrote self-publish a book in year 2. Which was 2 years earlier than I started it. Build or buy a tiny house. Did not do that, but maybe in the future. And then year 5 was teaching and mentoring role at university. I don't think I'm tied to that.

That I actually put in like my late 50s, 60s.

[34:08] Paul: Mentoring university students though, I don't know if those are the same thing.

[34:12] Angie Check-In: Yeah, I have. I think I was picturing like some sort of formal employment. I think just more bullish on the internet now. But yeah, and we've done this before. So yeah, should we dive into our buckets?

[34:27] Paul: Okay, so instead of buckets with the same amount of years inside, I did a bucket of bucket 1, 2 years.

[34:35] Angie Check-In: Next 2 years.

[34:36] Paul: Next 2 years. Bucket 2, the 2 years afterward. Bucket 3, 5 years, and bucket 4, 10 years, bucket 5, 10 years. And the reason what I did is I actually categorized the bucket based on how old Michelle would be. And I think that makes much, much more sense for us now. So what is in your bucket number 1?

[34:57] Angie Check-In: Do you want me to just read that?

[34:59] Paul: By the way, I think age is really important to help us imagine. So I'm going to be 47.

[35:04] Angie Check-In: I'm 38.

[35:06] Paul: Oh yeah, 38. Sorry, math, my math. I'm 34. So at that time, Paul will be 40. I'll be 36. Michelle will be 2 years old.

[35:15] Angie Check-In: So these are in the next 2 years. And yeah, I just did this quick before we did it. I put travel to Taiwan, which we're doing. Deep writing, continue that possibly. I did start a second book. Hopefully get close to the finish line on that.

Support Angie with art. Live in another country for 3 months, host a writing retreat somewhere in the world, 40th birthday party. I think I struggled with celebrating myself, so I'd love to do something big and maybe spend an amount of money that would make me uncomfortable. I also put sell strategy. You— I'm realizing I did not make these very Michelle-centric, though. I think for me, that's the easy part.

Of course, I'm going to prioritize her and do a lot of stuff with her. So it's hard to imagine that. Also, she can't walk for another—

[36:03] Paul: Right. So that's actually the reason why I put bucket number 1 in 2 years, because Michelle will be a toddler at that time. And that's probably before we have a second kid or before our second kid will be born. And people keep telling us that before kids can express their own preferences running around, that's the best time to travel. And I want to have like an overall view. And then I have a question for you.

[36:27] Angie Check-In: So like, what are your 2? Or you have a vision.

[36:31] Paul: No, no, not the vision. Like, it's just when I was listing out. So the way you do this exercise is you list out everything you want to do and then you put them into different buckets.

[36:39] Angie Check-In: Oh, I didn't do it that way.

[36:41] Paul: I found out there are so many activities there. They're like, they can be fit into any buckets because I want them like, I want to do them now, but I also want to do them with my future other kids. So that's one thing interesting. And the question for you is you never told me you're going to sell strategy.

[36:59] Angie Check-In: I mean, it's always been a thought. Like, I think my passion just isn't there. It's some sort of strategic agreement or arrangement or finding a CEO to hire. I need to find somebody that is interested in the topic, which is a very niche thing. But yeah, TBD.

[37:20] Paul: It's good to have podcasts once in a while to figure out what the other person is Thinking in their head, huh?

[37:26] Angie Check-In: Yeah, I can do this for 8 hours. You get tired of my thinking and plotting.

[37:32] Paul: Okay, not gonna comment on that. For my first 2 years, my plan is to have a second kid. I want to learn craniosacral therapy. One, one thing that I found out throughout this is like I keep wanting to go back to movement, and I think craniosacral therapy is something that really, I personally benefit a lot for the past years, and I know it will be very beneficial for me to learn and help my kids too. So craniosacral therapy is a way, like, if you go to— it's like a massage but not really. It's like, as it's called, it's called therapy.

What I do is the therapist literally just put their finger, lightly touch the back of your skull, and to improve the spinal fluid going. And just by doing that, and maybe lightly touch your other part of the body, a lot of past memories will start surfacing. So it's very famous for like treating trauma and TMJ pain, which is like also highly correlated with trauma. And I think that would be such a cool thing to do for me, to learn craniosacral therapy. I want to live in Las Palmas and a major city in Spain. Las Palmas is—

[38:39] Angie Check-In: in the next 2 years?

[38:41] Paul: Yeah.

[38:41] Angie Check-In: So we gotta do this in 2022.

[38:43] Paul: It's our first definite destination when we went nomadic. And I really, I think it's an environment that is good for kids before they get a full vaccine. I want to have vacation with extended family. That appear in every bucket. And this, this one, I want to stay in Om Water. Oh, okay.

[39:04] Angie Check-In: I don't know if that even— Om Water is like this floating house and Isolated lake in Thailand.

[39:13] Paul: Okay, that's Paul's definition of on water. My definition of on water is where I decided I'm going to marry Paul. That's— let me rephrase what it is. It's this magical floating cabin on the lake where you have to take 20 minutes of water taxi to, and you see literally nothing but the lake. You can't see anything else.

[39:34] Angie Check-In: I'll overlay some images. And at nighttime, cue beautiful music and images. Da da da. Yeah, keep going.

[39:43] Paul: At nighttime, there are lizards running around and there is no hot water. There's no Wi-Fi. It's just literally you and the other person. And that's the most magical and spiritual place I've been to. And it's in those 3 days that we spent our time in Om Water, actually the 3rd month that we were dating. That we did nothing.

We had nothing but each other. And that's the time I was very confirmed, very, very sure that I want to be with Paul for a long, long time. So I want to bring our daughter back.

[40:13] Angie Check-In: Let's do it. In the next 2 years?

[40:16] Paul: In the next 2 years.

[40:17] Angie Check-In: In Spain and be in the US for citizenship? Well, we'll have to work on— I think 2 to 3 years.

[40:22] Paul: Hey, dream big. Dream big.

[40:24] Angie Check-In: All right. Next 2 years?

[40:26] Paul: Yeah. You will be 42, I'll be 38, and Michelle will be 4. That's before Michelle—

[40:30] Angie Check-In: I'll be 42, 42.

[40:34] Paul: So that's before Michelle is going to a formal school, if she's going to a formal school.

[40:40] Angie Check-In: Yeah, so I, I've published another book, published book with Angie, or maybe start one, interviewed Tim Ferriss. I put something just scary for me to write down and put in public there. I put another bold goal. I've been trying to like just be bolder with my goals because It's scary for me to like dream big and picture myself as successful. Become Korean-Taiwanese known author. So working on, working on some foreign rights deals now.

Like I just feel like we need to wake up those work cultures. Live in Bali and go to the Green School with Michelle.

[41:21] Paul: Oh my God, I was thinking about that too, but it's not in my bucket.

[41:25] Angie Check-In: And then rent like a house in Italy. And pay people to come or pay for like the villa or a chef for cooking classes or something. And this is quick. Like I should probably do a little deeper.

[41:42] Paul: It's funny when you say about the famous author thing, you said, I want to become Korean. I was like, why do you want to become Korean? You should become Taiwanese first. Why Korean? Okay, that's just getting involved. So for me, it's have a a third kid if we want a third kid and then live in Costa Rica and Burros Contigo and live in Taiwan, especially Taitung, Doulan, where we both very like.

[42:13] Angie Check-In: Nice. Yeah, I think, I mean, one thing would be to like convince some relative to like spend some time in Taiwan with us. I don't know if anyone will do that. If anyone's watching this who is related to me, come to Taiwan with your kids and we'll all learn Chinese and eat great food for a year.

[42:31] Paul: You don't have to learn Chinese, but we'll show you guys great food.

[42:34] Angie Check-In: The kids could learn Chinese. So easy for kids.

[42:38] Paul: Bucket number 3, 5 years, you will be 47. I'll be 43. Literally when I write down—

[42:43] Angie Check-In: 42 to 47.

[42:46] Paul: Yeah, you will.

[42:46] Angie Check-In: Yeah.

[42:47] Paul: Okay.

[42:47] Angie Check-In: 42 to 47. And you'll be 38 to 43. All right.

[42:53] Paul: Michelle will be 9 years old.

[42:55] Angie Check-In: Wow.

[42:55] Paul: 4 tonight. This is really scary. Just like me listening to 43, I just cannot fathom the fact that I will one day turn 40. So this is, this is pretty scary for me.

[43:06] Angie Check-In: Are you going to celebrate it with a party? All right.

[43:09] Paul: All right. You go first.

[43:11] Angie Check-In: So yeah, I had a hard time imagining the kids stuff. I think my general thinking with kids is like it will figure its way out. And also we're going to get to know more of her personality and adjust needs. I think find international school to enroll or place we want to be or like a place in the US that's inspiring to us. I don't know where it is. Probably very community-centric that is not tied into like a sort of traditional metrics chasing world, maybe more connected to land, good food.

I put cooking course. I'd love to continue to take cooking, something I go deeper on in my life. 10-year wedding celebration. Get involved in international schools, maybe teach, live in Europe, live abroad with willing cousins. I said that already. Maybe start thinking about a home base.

Maybe that tiny house comes to fruition. As like a place to host retreats and stuff, right? Things like that. But yeah, yeah, the further in the future, the more I struggle.

[44:23] Paul: It's— I think it's interesting because we talk about bucket after bucket. This doesn't feel like that far away from now, but it's actually 9 years away from now.

[44:33] Angie Check-In: Yeah, we got married 4 years ago.

[44:35] Paul: How much we've accomplished over the past 9 years. What were you doing 9 years before this?

[44:40] Angie Check-In: 9 years. Um, how old were you? I was 31. I just moved to New York and I was—

[44:47] Paul: You're not 31, you're, you're 38 now. Oh yeah, 29 years.

[44:51] Angie Check-In: 29. I was in Boston. Um, I was like, I had this deep pull to like do something with my life. My bold step was to go to New York. Really, I wanted to like start another life. But yeah, it's another lifetime.

I was still recovering from health issues and really trying to come out of that shell.

[45:14] Paul: So 9 years ago, I was— it was 2015, I was 26. I, I was also— well, I just came back from New York City where I tried to find job for a whole year, couldn't really find something that is fulfilling. I came back to Taiwan, feel like a failure. And I remember one day I was biking from my like very small, tiny room to the gym and I was listening to James Brown's, and I think it's called Annie, that song. And it sings that Annie, you're a star, you just don't know. You just don't know who you are.

And I just like bawling. I was just like, I'm a loser. I didn't achieve anything in my life. Like now that I— now I still didn't achieve like super big things like on a default path, but I'm very happy with where I am. All right. But in that bucket for me, the first thing, you're not going to believe this, I want to compete in a bodybuilding competition.

[46:16] Angie Check-In: That's believable.

[46:18] Paul: Really?

[46:18] Angie Check-In: Yeah. You were always interested in that.

[46:21] Paul: No, but I think— okay, so I'm completely writing about 29 minutes. And the reason why I wrote about this one in this bucket is because I know a lot of moms The first thing they do after giving birth to all their kids is to join the competition to prove that they still own their body. They can still look the way they want to look. And I know bodybuilding competition is not the healthiest in terms of like the way you regulate your food or your, your mental health, but that's something that I've always been thinking. Um, I want to live in Ubud, and the reason why Southeast Asia like finally, like long-term results, Southeast Asia finally appear in this bucket. I think at this time our kids all had their, might all have their full vaccine and I feel comfortable bringing them to countries that have more like dengue fever.

[47:14] Angie Check-In: I mean, a vaccine will never stop dengue fever.

[47:18] Paul: Oh yeah, maybe you're right, but hey, you know, you know what I mean. I want to live in Ubud. I want to visit India, Nepal, and Tibet. So I'm so drawn to Tibet, man. I'm so drawn to Tibet.

[47:33] Angie Check-In: A lot of people are.

[47:35] Paul: So this one interesting too. I want to take— I want to be certified in neurokinetic therapy and PDTR. I think it's called proprioceptor deep tendon reflex. Reflexor, something like that. It's, it's something that is just like blow my mind, a new way of understanding the human body. And I want to become a movement specialist.

[48:01] Angie Check-In: Nice.

[48:02] Paul: I want to have a profitable art, profitable art business selling my art. And I want to have vacation with my extended family, our extended family. And I think the reason why this movement thing really come back, like, in such a full-blown way is I feel like movement is always something I wanted to do, but now I would rather spend time on art because I feel like learning about movement style, you need such extensive time to learn and put into practice. You probably need to be physically based in a place so you can have clients, cases to practice. And I feel like at that time, Buckethead is perfect for me re-entering movement specialist. And also at that time, I believe I will already be very successful in earning money.

And whatever that means, that means that maybe I'm finally steadily earning money.

[48:56] Angie Check-In: Why are you laughing?

[48:58] Paul: Be serious about yourself, Angie. So I think, I think at that time I will be able to approach being a movement specialist but not attached to how much money I make from that. And then I will be able to approach the fitness profession from abundance.

[49:19] Angie Check-In: Yeah, why is money such an important thing there?

[49:22] Paul: What do you mean?

[49:24] Angie Check-In: It's just like, I mean, you could have just said the movement thing, but it seems attached to money for you.

[49:31] Paul: Is this a coaching session? Well, I think because last time I leave the fitness spaces because I just hate how much I feel the scarcity of money while exploring my love for fitness and how people compete the business opportunity while trying to work with each other. And I want to do— I really love women. I really wanted to learn about it from abundance mindset.

[49:57] Angie Check-In: Nice.

[50:00] Paul: And so something I realized these days, I always feel so shameful that I, whenever I share my art and knowing that I have a lot of professional artist friends, I just feel like whatever I do, I will not be able to catch up with them. Not in the next 1 year, not in the next 3 years. So I wanted to give up all the time. I just feel like I'm so laughable when I share my reels and stuff. But one day I woke up, I think I was just watching the reel one of my artist friends made, and I was like, okay, do you think you won't be able to make this artwork in 10 years? Are you kidding me?

I will definitely be able to make this in 10 years. It's not next 1 year or next 3 years, but definitely in the next 10 years. I just need to keep going. And so I feel like 9 years is the time I can confidently say that I am selling my art and running a profitable art business. Yes.

[50:57] Angie Check-In: Nice. Well, it's such an important thing. Like if you're comparing yourself to other people, you always lose because you always find things they're good at, right? Yeah, it's cool. You're finding a better relationship to art. I think it's incredible.

[51:14] Paul: One thing that is interesting about this exercise is in my newsletter I share about in my NLP training, we did a like designing a powerful life course. And for that course, we actually start from 20 years. And then we did a meditation to put us in abundance, a sensation of abundance. And then we start from that 20 years. So we won't start from the limitation of where we are now, because 20 years is such a long span of time that anything could happen. So from that 20 years, you draw a picture, you listen very detailed in that that date, that point of time, what were you doing?

Who are you with? What life— what, what come— what is your life composed? And then you go back to the previous 10 years, and then the previous 5 years, and previous 3 years, and then next month, next day, today, what are you gonna do? So it's a little bit different from we doing this bucket exercise, which brings us to the Oh my God. We still have 2 buckets.

[52:20] Angie Check-In: 47 to 57 for me. This will be 7, 9. Michelle will be 10. You'll be—

[52:30] Paul: No, Michelle will be 19.

[52:32] Angie Check-In: No, at the end of it. Yeah, it's a whole— it's the 10 years, 9 to 19.

[52:39] Paul: And I will be 43 to 53.

[52:42] Angie Check-In: Man, this is like the— when they look at the happiness studies, this is when, like, people fall apart. So we got to get our shit together.

[52:49] Paul: Why do people fall apart?

[52:50] Angie Check-In: Just like peak kids, peak career, peak stress. But we are aware of that so we can try to avoid.

[52:58] Paul: Why are they at their peak and then still fall apart?

[53:01] Angie Check-In: I think people age too. And if they're not peak healthy, you're going to feel— start feeling worse. Your body breaks down. You're maybe not eating as healthy. And yeah, I mean, this is why, like, health is so important to me now.

[53:16] Paul: It is.

[53:17] Angie Check-In: But we'll check back in in 9 years.

[53:21] Paul: What's your— so it's funny for me when I look at—

[53:24] Angie Check-In: I run out of stuff when I get to this.

[53:26] Paul: Oh really? That's a good thing actually.

[53:28] Angie Check-In: Well, I just have a hard time imagining.

[53:30] Paul: I think it's also because you were living such a traditional life. I mean, for some people, maybe their dream life is like explore this country, become a digital nomad, or like live abroad. It's so true. We're already doing it. I mean, we're already doing it, so we just come up with different versions of it. But I think so.

I want to share this for me, for the previous bucket. I look at my age, 43. I still feel like I think I can imagine what I look like, probably pretty much the same like now, which I also look like this when I was 23. I can see a trace, like traces of still uncertainty and incompetence in me. But when I look at the word 53, I see this long-haired woman who has wrinkles on her face and so confident and radiant with joy and peace.

[54:24] Angie Check-In: What do you think that person would say to you now?

[54:28] Paul: You're fine, girl. You're great. Whatever you do, like, I bet I'll still be pretty You probably will be. I only have 3 things. Okay, the first one is live in Ubud but with parents.

[54:46] Angie Check-In: With our parents?

[54:48] Paul: I know it's very close to Taiwan, so my parents will probably come. I don't know if your parents are willing to take a long flight.

[54:54] Angie Check-In: Yeah, everyone's gonna— yours will be in their 60s still, mine will be in there.

[54:58] Paul: No, they'll be their 70s.

[55:01] Angie Check-In: Yeah.

[55:04] Paul: And I think they will still love to travel abroad. And I have this— yeah, I just feel like I wanted to be living in the villa with them because when we were kids, we do this family travel. And I remember this image of me sitting in the courtyard with my family in one of the villas, and then they have staff cooking bacon for us. And the staff is so bad at cooking bacon that the bacon got so burnt like a cookie. And so when they serve the cookie to us, we're— cookie— serve the bacon to us, we're all so shocked. And then my mom and my auntie are just like throwing the bacon in each other's face and say, see, it even cleans like a cookie, hahaha.

And like, I just remember that time, like, we're all so happy together as extended family. And I want to experience that. In Ubud with my parents, with our parents. And I will have an art exhibition. Can be big, can be small. Maybe just some pictures hanging in a small coffee shop.

I will be very happy. So you didn't do the last one?

[56:13] Angie Check-In: I did. Yeah.

[56:14] Paul: Oh, you did?

[56:14] Angie Check-In: So, I mean, you didn't ask me my 47 to 57 bucket yet.

[56:19] Paul: Wait, you just— You said you didn't write anything in these two buckets.

[56:23] Angie Check-In: I didn't. I didn't write that much. Learn cooking in 2 to 3 countries, orient life around kids. They're probably going to— maybe they're going to be— Michelle will probably be sick of us, but mentoring young people. I feel like that theme keeps coming back. I always want to be mentoring young people in those environments.

Wind down intense work, start like hitting the downslope. Find sort of like a retirement semi-home, maybe that's when I'd be interested in purchasing a home or something, or just like inheriting homes. And yeah, that's— it's very vague, but it's 20 years from now. I guess I'm being sure cooking, teaching, working less, and kids. Yeah, it's a good life.

[57:18] Paul: Last 10 years.

[57:21] Angie Check-In: For me, I put slow travel. I don't think I'll want to do intense touristic travel or short term. I want to like go places and live for 3 months, learn languages, travel with kids, spend time at the family lake house, maybe go on cruises. I'll be older and don't want to walk as much. But like 57 to 67, I should still be running, right? I'm going to be biking at least.

I put professor, like maybe that's when I get involved in the university or like hopefully David Perel has his university by then and I'll just volunteer.

[58:03] Paul: Hey, did you realize that in the last 10 years At the end of the next 10 years, Michelle will be 29 years old.

[58:10] Angie Check-In: Yeah. Wow.

[58:12] Paul: Yeah. So did you— did that change some?

[58:14] Angie Check-In: I think it's so hard to imagine. I don't have expectations of like, I hope she has to do these things. The most important thing is that we love and support her and she's being the person she's capable of being.

[58:29] Paul: I think so. I wrote down vacation with extended family. That's the only thing in my pocket. Because I feel like—

[58:35] Angie Check-In: big extended family by then.

[58:38] Paul: That's true. I think like now it's just really hard for me to imagine that it's like 30 years afterwards, right? And I think like some details we will only figure out when we explore our life path for the next years. And technology is going to change so much. Maybe Michelle will be on Mars, who knows. But one thing I know is I want to be flexible enough so I can visit Michelle, whatever she is, and our other kids too.

[59:08] Angie Check-In: So I think the thing that jumped out in yours, the themes, you're starting to get way bolder about art, which is cool. I've been rooting for this for a while. I did not hear anything about writing in your list.

[59:25] Paul: Yeah.

[59:26] Angie Check-In: I mean, but yeah, and then traveling with extended family and vacations. I think that's like very important. That's for, that's for me too.

[59:34] Paul: And movement is important.

[59:35] Angie Check-In: I was surprised they put cooking in a lot of mine.

[59:38] Paul: But cooking is so attainable for you. I mean, literally where we go, we can just sign up for an Airbnb experience.

[59:44] Angie Check-In: No, I want to do like in-depth, like I want to study for like a month. Like I've, my reflection of studying Chinese while starting to write my book in 2021 for 3 months, That was like thriving for me. 4 hours of studying or like 4 to 6 hours of studying in class every day, biking around, writing. Yeah, it was intense, hard, and like really meaningful.

[01:00:08] Paul: Shout out to Miles who inspired Paul on cooking. Yeah. It's really— now that you mentioned Taiwan, so we're actually going back to Taiwan for 3 months next month.

[01:00:19] Angie Check-In: Yeah.

[01:00:20] Paul: It's a very exciting but scary thing for me. I mean, being close to my family is— and my hometown is always scary because it not only reminds you of where you grew up, it also reminds you of all the limitations that make— that makes you who you are as a person.

[01:00:39] Angie Check-In: Yeah, I think the US is unique in that there are so many different cultures here, so many different communities like ways of working. Like, you can find your tribe in like culture and energy, like 100 different places in the US. But like, Taiwan is like definitely a monoculture, and the monoculture does not vibe with you completely.

[01:01:06] Paul: And there are just so many expectations that when you're away, it's fine, but when you're in Taiwan, you sort of have to follow the Taiwanese norm, like these Yesterday morning I was talking to my parents that we want to go to Matsu Island in Taiwan. I've never been before. And they were kind of disappointed. Like, oh, you're already in Taiwan. Why are you leaving the family? Why are you going to a place that we don't want to travel with you?

And it's sort of like every travel decision we made when we go back to Taiwan has to be matching their calendar availability too. And I would say, man, it just reminds me of how resistant I am going back to Taiwan. But I wanted to mention this. I am so surprised when you said that no matter how, how I plan our trip to Taiwan, you want to stay in Taipei for a month because that's your home.

[01:01:51] Angie Check-In: I think, yeah, I mean, it's like a home for me in a sense. I was like reborn, I think, 5 years ago. 5 years ago, I was wrapping up my first year of self-employment and about to go to Taiwan. I was about to meet you like 3 months from now. 5 years ago. And yeah, I just felt at peace there and connected to myself for the first time in my life.

So I think it's, it's always going to be a special place for me.

[01:02:19] Paul: Yeah, you are so chill at that time. I think you're in a transition of like—

[01:02:24] Angie Check-In: I was very lost, but I was very open to the world.

[01:02:27] Paul: Lost and chill.

[01:02:28] Angie Check-In: I was very open to what was coming.

[01:02:31] Paul: The way you should— you smell is that I'm so happy. I just—

[01:02:35] Angie Check-In: well, that was like, I think that was like my broken work identity too. I was still really recovering from that. I really lost myself in my past career and it took me a while to like wear a shirt like this with more color and like laugh a little more and like be a little more energetic. Took a lot of work to get here today.

[01:02:58] Paul: So TBD, we will do another episode.

[01:03:02] Angie Check-In: Give us the plan.

[01:03:03] Paul: Give us a plan. We're going to talk about—

[01:03:05] Angie Check-In: Angie is now in charge of whatever she's calling this. The cadence, the agenda. She's in charge.

[01:03:13] Paul: We're going to be in Taiwan and we'll talk about our reflection of arriving in Taiwan and our reverse culture, my reverse culture shock and how you feel about living in Taiwan again.

[01:03:24] Angie Check-In: We'll do it. Maybe we'll do it in a park in Taichung.