The Formless Path - Money, Fatherhood & Creativity (Howard Gray)

[01:35] Paul: Welcome to the podcast, Howard. Uh, today I wanted to introduce you, but I was struggling because you have so many different identities you've listed. I basically wanted to turn it over to you and say, which identities or roles are you playing right now that are most alive for you?

[02:04] Howard Gray: Thank you for having me, Paul. It's a great question. Which identities are most alive for me? I really like it as a, as a starter. It's actually really interesting. We're recording this about a week or so after I did a couple of sort of repositioning exercises out of a couple of books that I quite enjoyed around positioning, mainly for companies, but I kind of did it for myself as well as the independent studio I run, which we can get into later.

And having done that, which was a really clarifying exercise, and I sent it to a few friends who fed back on it as well, which is really interesting, the identities that I'm— that are making me most alive, I think it's around stories. And I think there's something that sort of run through my work for a long time, but I never really maybe acknowledged. And I think it's still a work in progress as it pertains to like the identity, because as a friend said to me the other day, if you go around to someone on the street and say, hey, I'm a storyteller, they're like, you're a bit crazy. Whereas if you're Martin Scorsese and you say you're a storyteller, oh yeah, it's Martin Scorsese. So I think the idea of stories as an identity is really interesting to me and I feel, I feel very close to it. But where I am actually right now as we're talking is how do you make that an identity?

Because it feels a bit nebulous to some people, I suppose. So that's— I think that's one of the identities that I'm, I'm drawn to perhaps. And I think the other one that's maybe a little more concrete is creating spaces for people to do the work they want to do. In a safe and supported way, but also in a kind of irreverent and fun way. And that gets to a lot of the work I've been doing over probably the last 5 years or so around creating workshops, building programs, curating conferences, stuff like that. So I think there's like stories is the sort of work in progress identity that's ironically been there for ages, but I don't exactly know always how to talk about it as an identity.

And the one around creating spaces is a bit more solid, but ironically has actually been there a little bit less time. So those are the two that— those are the two I'm going to go to, two S's for us to start with.

[04:22] Paul: So you have a few chapters that stand out when I was looking at your path. You kind of have, starting after college, you have like this advertising path, then you decided, all right, I'm going to be a talent agent, and then you have kind of the solopreneur path. But I want, I want to go back and then building on your stories idea, like what were the stories you grew up with that sent you in that direction?

[04:51] Howard Gray: So this is— I feel like you've done your research. I'm flattered by— I did, I did a talk last week. It was kind of a workshop meets talk, a great conference called CMX Summit, which is a conference for community builders. In San Diego. It's online this year, and I did a session on storytelling. And the intro bit that I did was a story about a teacher in England many, many years ago.

And I'll fast forward the actual story because it'll take too long, but that was one of my favorite ever teachers, uh, Mr. Seth, when I was 9 years old. And he used to tell us lots of stories like Roald Dahl and things like that. We got really into those kind of stories, and I I remember that inspired me to start kind of sketching out comics and little kind of short stories and things like that. I'm left-handed and my handwriting's always been awful. I can't draw, so I kind of stopped doing it, but I feel like the crafting of a story was something I was always really drawn to.

And I think throughout school that showed up for me. I promoted parties when I was about 14, 15, that turned into like sort of illegal raves, which we can talk about separately. I think actually, and those were spaces as well, of course. But I think there was also stories in that of, hey, I'm organizing, I'm co-organizing this thing around music that I'm really into. Do you want to come along to this? And so it would be like creating artwork for it or explaining why the thing mattered or putting it on a piece of paper to try and sell it, you know, like as a flier.

And I feel like that, that's a story, right? Like it's a concept someone isn't familiar with. So how do you make it land with them and make it feel interesting and exciting? And I was also really into music from when I was really young, like, you know, 9, 10, 11. But I got deep, deep, deep into sort of electronic music when I was about 13, 14. And I used to buy a lot of records.

I worked in a record store and I was always fascinated by the stories behind the music. So whether it's the artwork or the people making it or the sort of scenes and the groups behind things. And so I think those stories as well were really appealing to me. So I think the— yeah, I think that's where that started to show up, like really early when I was super young doing these little comic things, but then also sort of stories behind music, I think, as a thing that bit me really hard when I was probably 13, 14. I sort of carried that through pretty much all the way through to now, like 20— showing my age— 25 years later or thereabouts.

[07:23] Paul: Are there any specific songs or artists that stand out for you?

[07:28] Howard Gray: Oh my goodness. Okay.

[07:30] Paul: Yeah.

[07:31] Howard Gray: I'm just going to go—

[07:32] Paul: what's the first one that like pops into your mind?

[07:35] Howard Gray: Yeah, I was going to go. Yeah, absolutely. I was going to go with the first one. I think that's a great— I think it's a good way of coming at it. I think the first one that comes to mind was The Prodigies' Fat of the Land album in 1997. So I I was 14.

It's the album with the big— with the crab on the front on the beach. It's really memorable artwork. And I've been into— I sort of dug into some of their singles and stuff at the older bits before, but I hadn't really sort of pieced it all together. And I bought the album on vinyl. I remember taking it home and it's like punky, noisy, electronic. It was when they started to get really big and they had like a lot of their bigger tracks on it.

And it just was this kind of melting pot of all these genres. I didn't even know what the genres were, but it had this kind of raw energy where it combined rock, punk, electronic, hip-hop, other stuff altogether. And so I feel like that was— I mean, this is pretty, very clichéd answer, because I think if you ask anyone of my age who's into like electronic music, The Prodigy would obviously come up. But I think that album, it had a lot of sort of alternative stuff on it. It wasn't just like straight electronic dance music, it was a real mishmash. And I think something about that maybe appealed to me because it brought together a lot of different themes in like a really interesting, coherent, but also like quite edgy way.

It didn't conform. Like, it was a really popular record, it sold a lot of albums, but it was, it was pretty uncompromising. And actually, I was listening to a couple of the tracks on it like a few weeks ago, and they still sound pretty good like 24 years later. So yeah, I think that Fat of the Land by The Prodigy would be the one that like jumps out. I think also the, the the visuals of it, I can still picture them super clearly in my mind as well. So I think the combination of the way the whole thing was packaged together in a really visceral, uncompromising way, that's the one that jumps out.

[09:24] Paul: I can feel the energy of just the interest in stories and how that connects to your path. It's interesting because I don't think I was— I don't know if I was that aware when, when younger, like I really was just thinking like, okay, get maximized grades, get a really good job, follow the path. Did that kind of thinking ever occur to you or was it always, all right, I'm going to approach my life as kind of a remix?

[09:58] Howard Gray: So I don't want to get too far into sort of therapy territory, but maybe it's relevant. I got I got moved up a year when I was in school when I was about 9. So I grew up in Cornwall, which is like a very rural part of England, the most rural part, arguably, in a really small village school. And I got moved up a year for like 2 years because I guess I was smart or something, but I was really young. And then when we moved to like commuter belt Surrey, which is about an hour outside London, I then got moved straight back down a year back to where I should have been because I wasn't that smart. And I guess why I'm saying that is because maybe in Cornwall, that's interesting.

I'm sort of thinking about this as we're talking about it. It was maybe a little bit more free, both the school and where I was younger, of course, and there wasn't as much structure around it. And I think as soon as I moved into like a more structured environment, a bigger school with more classes, more people, I just don't think I thrived in that environment. And when I became a teenager, I got in a lot of trouble when I was about 14, 15. I know a lot of kids do, but I, I was on the scale of 1 to 10, 7 or 8 in terms of like going off the rails. Wasn't great.

And I just don't think that like the, the grade path was that— it didn't really appeal that much. Like the idea of— well, the idea of going into like banking or finance never even crossed my mind, ever. Not even— I didn't even know what it was. The idea of, say, like going to Oxford University never felt like it was within reach. The idea of moving to America or like going to Harvard or, you know, any US college like that just felt very out of reach. I think maybe partly because I came from a relatively sort of lower middle class background.

And so that stuff just wasn't available, wasn't really a thing you did. And so, yeah, that like traditional path never appealed. I was always really into kind of the media, I suppose. And so I think the parts that began to look interesting were film and TV advertising, although I didn't really know what it was. It felt kind of interesting. Interestingly, music as a career wasn't something I'd really thought about, but I think it was more around the sort of TV and advertising stuff.

And my university degree was in multimedia production, which is like the most broad degree you can do. You do like 3D animation, TV, hacking, computer science stuff, hardware things, all of that, like bits of journalism, all under one roof. And I think that sort of— that was really, really good fit for me because it enabled me to keep my options open, which I think is something that is probably another theme, is having the optionality. So no, sorry, a bit of a long answer, but that, that straight sort of grade-based path never really appealed. I think it was more the exploratory or remix approach, like you said. Was always something that I gravitated to a lot more.

[12:53] Paul: In your, in your first role, you were— I was reading your LinkedIn bio and you said you were in the digital space in '05, '06. What was that like? Because that, I mean, that was still really early, stuff barely worked online. Um, did that expand your imagination for where you were headed?

[13:13] Howard Gray: I think it did. And so I graduated in '03. Um, I worked at like a a little e-commerce company for about a year that was doing kind of eBay storefronts and stuff. It was a big eBay sellers. It was quite, it was quite interesting, um, quite renegade as well, which I guess is again is another theme for me. Um, and I moved to London in, uh, 2005, 2006.

And yeah, that my first sort of proper job was in advertising. I remember actually casting around once at the summer of, I think it was 2005, try like trying to figure out what these job titles meant. There was like WAP, WAP manager. And I'm like, what, what is this? Like, I didn't know what any of these job titles were. I didn't know what account managers were in agencies because at university no one ever explained this stuff to us.

Like, our career readiness was— there was nothing. But it was a really interesting time because when I did land in this, I got an interview at this digital department of a traditional advertising agency. And this is just around the time sort of Facebook and stuff was starting to become a thing for brands, like just starting to be. This is kind of 2007. '06-ish. And this was a traditional ad agency in London, kind of the classic sort of old-school agency, but they had a digital department of about 15, 20 people.

And I went in as a producer, and I didn't even know what that was either, but it was a kind of project manager who was a bit more creative but also talked to clients. And I was 23, and I guess there was something about the two guys that hired me— I remember them now, Jeff and Raf, um, and I'm still in touch with one of them a little bit. Really cool guys. I think they must have just seen something in me as being like a little bit hard to pin down, a bit of a misfit, and able to sort of turn my hand to a few different things. And it was a really fascinating time because this was bringing clients and also the staff of this agency into this sort of digital age, like the kind of beginnings of Web 2.0, very early. And it's like TV ads don't work here.

That kind of copywriting doesn't work. Like, we can't take 6 months to make a thing for this client. And so I learned a lot really quickly. And I think there was working with like digital designers who were like really great at Photoshop and really— there's a lot of Flash, we did loads of Flash stuff then. I think it did open my eyes a lot to— I think actually maybe expanded my horizons is a better way of putting it. And I think maybe this is relevant for people listening is I've been struck a number of times during my career at how narrow my horizons were in hindsight.

So I thought they were wide and then I realized they weren't. And I think that was one of the sort of pivotal moments where I realized there was this whole world of both brands and advertising and the budgets that brands would spend on marketing and things like that. But also these people who were these digital wizards who had been doing it for 8, 9, 10 years and were building stuff in Flash 1.0 9 years before, and seeing them work their magic was, was quite incredible. So yeah, I think, I think that time was, was quite formative for me, for sure.

[16:14] Paul: Yeah, I think that inability to dream past our current, uh, kind of path is such a huge thing in today's world and such a huge trap. I remember working with an accountant once and they— I proposed a couple paths and they were like, I can't do that. I don't know anyone that's done that. And I'm like, yeah, because everyone else thinks the same thing, right? So it's this self-reinforcing narrative. And I even fell into that trap.

I thought I had all this optionality. I moved jobs a lot. But then now looking back as a solopreneur doing all these other things, I had no idea what the possibilities were out there. And now I do this exercise with my wife where we kind of, at least once or twice a year, we're saying, all right, what are we not thinking about that we could imagine or dream and then go do? Just to push us to keep thinking about those possibilities outside our comfort zone.

[17:19] Howard Gray: I like that a lot, and it brings to mind for me actually the idea of lateral versus forward movement. I think even now I have a hard time with it. I think one thing I am good at is bringing people and ideas together in a lateral way. Bringing people around stuff, connecting dots between different disciplines and different humans and ideas. I see things in there, maybe their personalities or their goals, that I'm good at connecting them. But I still have a hard time kind of looking 3 years out or even 1 year out or 10 years.

I think that, that seeing what's in the future past the horizon point, you know, like I said, the horizons were limited and horizons both go, you know, width, breadth, but also what you can see out in front of you. That's still something I find difficult. And I, I think I've had to train myself to get better at it and it's something I still want to get better at. And so, yeah, the paths kind of go in a number of different dimensions, I suppose.

[18:23] Paul: Yeah, I, I struggle with that too. I think part of it is we're trained to think we should have these 5-year plans, right? You should know where you're going to live and what your job— all these extrinsic markers of where you are in life. I really just try to keep it smaller in terms of, okay, 5, 10 years from now, what are the bets I would make now that I want to be doing then? Like, what are the modes I want to be in? Who do I want to be engaging with?

Where do I want— what kind of place do I want to be? And kind of committing to making those things happen. But on the— I mean, on this solopreneur path, I'm not really sure how to project more than 6 months at a time. I think that's what makes it thrilling for me and also disorienting because you can't never have a sense for kind of where you are. And I mean, that, that's why the title of my book I'm writing is The Pathless Path.

[19:23] Howard Gray: Yeah. And I think actually that brings to mind for me when I was sort of first time founding a company, there was like a long-term vision or view, but like with anything, a horizon, it starts to shimmer and lose form the further away it is. And it was hard to grab, grasp it and hold on to it because I could see it in the distance, but it kept changing state and changing color and everything else. And I think it would have been— I would have been better served kind of to what you said around like the, the 6-month grasp that's easier to hold and also looking at smaller bets rather than like the, the big thing that feels exciting, but it can become a mirage that sort of just disappears as you get older. It looks horribly different when you actually get up close to it.

Yeah, I think the, the shorter-term planning, which I know sounds very counterintuitive to a lot of what is out there in the world— people talk about, you know, you've got to have your 10-year vision and all of that stuff— I do find like the, the more immediate stuff is, is much easier to grasp for sure. It's definitely something I've noticed. I've fallen into that trap a few times.

[20:36] Paul: Yeah. How, how are you managing your energy these days? I know you just had a kid. You're working on a number of different things. Maybe you can break it down for us in terms of like what you're working on, where your energy is, maybe where most of your income does or doesn't come from and how you're thinking about balancing all that.

[20:59] Howard Gray: All right. That's a good question. I think there's a few chunks to it. So first, first thought on this, I put a tweet out last night which is there's two types of podcasts. There's the type of podcast where someone's coming from like a very solid foundation, talking about stuff they feel really strongly about and have practiced and can speak about very firmly. The second type of podcast is like a slice of life where it's a moment in time and the podcast is capturing where that person is at that moment.

And it might be a little bit more hazy, but it's probably more vulnerability and openness and realness in there. So I think this one falls very much into the second category, this question, because it's very much like a now. Yeah. And so, yeah, we're recording this. I have a 6-week-old son, which actually still feels still very strange saying that. And I think if I break out your question into time, where's the time, how am I spending my time and kind of where's my energy going and where are my revenue streams?

Were those the 3 elements of it? Is that fair to say?

[22:02] Paul: Yeah. So, so maybe just break down, um, before you, you had a child, um, where were kind of your bets and your time and your energy going? And then let's dive into how, um, this has shifted, how you're thinking about going forward.

[22:22] Howard Gray: Sure. So before, I think actually at a more macro aspect, not that much has changed, but I think the The way to put it is probably a sharpening, an enforced sharpening. And I think going back to my thing around optionality, I think I've always wanted that. I think part of that is curiosity. Part of that is probably fear in some way of like, this might not work, or seeking some sort of a crutch or security of some sort. Most likely, I would imagine.

But before I was spending most of my time building a studio called Wavetable, which is basically a sort of agency/studio focused on learning. So I use learning rather than education, so more of a— that's quite deliberate— collaborative, peer-driven learning that uses storytelling and entertainment and coaching and other elements that I think are really important to create experiences that people actually want to be a part of rather than something that's enforced onto them. And Wavetable does a couple of things. One is working with brands to create predominantly fan-based, fan and community-driven learning. A big thesis of mine is that brands of all flavors have the power to become educators. Some, some already do it.

It's a very, very, very varying success. But I do believe there's great opportunity there with the right guides to help them design great experiences and open themselves up to the people that they want to serve. So we do a lot of stuff around that. We also do some internal kind of training and leadership development stuff too. So a lot of my time has been spent there before, before baby and after baby. And the other, the other side of the story is my own stuff.

And that showed up in a couple of different ways. Writing quite a lot. I got a coaching certification back in 2018 and have long been interested in that work. I think both doing it but also from a sort of self-exploration point of view. I just think it's so interesting and important to understand thyself. And the other part is probably the creator bit.

And as a side note, I really don't identify with that word creator. Myself. I have a really hard time with it. Like, I don't like calling myself an entrepreneur. I don't like calling myself creator. I don't know why.

It just doesn't, it doesn't sit well with me at all. So I just, um, whatever you want to call that stuff that I do, uh, writing, making podcasts, uh, doing newsletters, uh, doing some sort of quirky video stuff, uh, I do a lot of, have done and did and still do a lot of stuff around that. And the— I think the, the energy there is in towards helping people, probably particularly those on A Pathless Path, make sense of the world and overcome the tension and work through the tension of trying to go out and do the work you're trying to do in the world. Because I think it's hard, especially when you're on your own. And so I think a lot of my personal stuff that I share, or why under my own name, is seeking to help people who are also seeking.

And I think the, the framer of the work is a guide, not a guru, like whether it's Wavetable working with companies or whether it is me doing my own stuff, like the guru thing, I just don't, I don't dig it. And I think guides are far more important. And in that is tension because as soon as I'm putting my own stuff out there, there's sort of my name on it and that's, that can be difficult to lean into. So that was what That was what I was doing before. So doing, building a small company to work with brands, predominantly doing my own stuff with a little bit of coaching, but predominantly sort of creating an output after. So we're 6 weeks in.

[26:23] Paul: So I'll just pause there for a second. I think that's really interesting. I have a similar setup and I keep seeing this emerge for a lot of people, which is almost like the business side pays the bills and also kind of funds this creative experiment, small bets, and also the connection. I think when you're working alone, just creating on your own, sharing your story is a way to connect with others as a way to almost find your coworkers that you don't have. But I keep seeing this kind of two-pronged approach emerge for a lot of people. And it's interesting and it's definitely how I'm set up is as well.

[27:01] Howard Gray: It's actually— so I'm glad you said that because it's quite reassuring because I've been right. I've been right in that. And I think maybe this gets to the sort of now is in the last 2 to 3 months I've been thinking, okay, so I have a newsletter that I write. I've done 50+ editions of it. I've written 500 or more blog posts on my website. Now it's a lot, you know, there's a ton of podcasts, all kinds of stuff.

I've never done that for money. I've never even tried to monetize it really. So is that what is the, what is the path forward with that? And I think that the challenge that's often not talked about in creator economy— I'm using air quotes— is that it's really freaking hard to go. And so I think— and also I think the— not just that it's hard, I think that it can put you in a difficult position where you're then compromised to go with the lowest common denominator or only the topic that seems to get the most hits. And I think I've made peace now with doing the business side, which, you know, for you is probably your courses and your, you know, consulting work, things like that, um, with the personal.

So for me, my company works with companies, and that gives me the resources to freely share what I want to share through my own platforms. And I don't have to think about Oh, how do I make $20 a month out of 1,000 people for this? How do I make sure that I get enough hits on this video? How do I charge for this? How do I charge for that? How do I make enough?

And so that has been quite freeing for me. There's still tension because there always is when there's a two-pronged approach. And I think I'm definitely still working through the how much do I show up in the business brand? And that can be difficult. And I think people can sometimes find it confusing. Maybe you have the same thing.

So it's— I'm glad you said that because it's been the two-pronged approach I think is the way to go. And I think the freedom to go and just goof around a bit and speak your mind is quite liberating without having that sort of shackle of, oh God, I'm a creator, I've got to make enough to pay the bills just off this video stuff that I'm doing or whatever it is. I think I'm happier with my current setup.

[29:21] Paul: Yeah, yeah, same here. I'm lucky, I think, in that my kind of consulting course, my, the workshops I run through that, the consulting I do for that, I'm very good at it. I know how to do it. I know exactly who I kind of want to serve. And the creator stuff, which is much more emergent, this podcast, my newsletter, all these other small experiments. I don't really make much money.

And I, I think I've been lucky because I sense a similar thing as you, which is I don't know if it's hard to make money. I, so I would push back. I, I don't think it'd be hard at all for you to figure out how to make money. You've operated in so many domains, you know how to make money. I think what's hard is doing it in a way that, you know, you'd still be energized about and 10 years? And that's kind of the vision question I ask where I'm super hesitant to commit to stuff on the stuff I'm really excited about and energized about because I kind of protect that rather than earning money.

So I don't know if that resonates for you.

[30:34] Howard Gray: It does. And the way I would sort of maybe shape it a bit is I have to keep the formless. And what I mean by that is a friend and mentor said to me, he was trying to help me like get focused on some stuff recently. And after a while he said, you know what, Howard, I feel like if there's ever a point where you're doing one thing, that's bad because you're just not— you're not— you're not moving. You're not— you're not able to keep moving. And so I think there needs to be this kind of formless evolving thing that is always, that's constantly like shift, shape-shifting and changing, and you're exploring it and playing with it and trying to find new, new ways of doing it.

And I think having that movement is really important to me. And the moment that that stops or stays or becomes sort of calcifies or solidifies is actually bad. And that gets to your thing about could I do this in 10, could I be doing this in 10 years? For me, it's like if if I'm not energized by the exploration, and often that is— that usually shows up as the stories behind people and things that I find interesting. If that ever stays, if that ever becomes just like a sort of solid state, I think that's probably bad for me. I think it actually has to be more formless and moving.

And so, yeah, I think, I think you're 100% right. And yeah, it's easy to conflate the money thing with the energy thing.

[32:05] Paul: So question for you, you said, you said you're very hesitant around the creator label, and I, I'd love to dive into this as well. I think I have a similar hesitancy, mostly because like the creator label is being co-opted by VCs and hustlepreneurs who are basically only looking at humans as money operating businesses. However, thinking about, like, a question I want to ask you is, is the creator title just one too many for you? And you're like, this is pointless, I don't need any more titles. Because on your website you have DJ, forest rave promoter, Ministry of Defense employee, journalist, digital producer, radio host, talent agent, teacher, product management coach, and entrepreneur. Are you just done with all these labels or people trying to put you in a bucket?

[32:57] Howard Gray: Short answer is probably yes. So I actually, I think I had a blog post on this called Labels in, Labels Out, which is just about kind of this topic. And I think it maybe gets to what I just said about the flowing thing. I don't want to be pinned with something. And the way, the way maybe I can sort of describe this is when I did my coaching certification, which was a pretty interesting experience, 10-month program, we can maybe get into it. Maybe later or next time.

In like the first session, everyone had to put name tags on. You know, you got— I'm sure you've had this, right? You go to like any kind of event or a course or whatever, people put a name tag on and I refused. And it's just my name, just my name. And I just preferred to be— I just preferred to be anonymous until I was ready to speak. And if someone wanted to come up and talk to me, I would happily talk to them.

But I did not want to be labeled. And it's the same. I mean, that's such a kind of ridiculous thing to think about now, but I think it stands that the whole labeling of things, I think, forces— paints me into— I feel it can paint me into a corner. And so the deliberate listing on my website of like, here's 15 labels, is almost a bit of a middle finger to labels in itself, in that, hey, I've done all these different things and here are the labels. They probably don't make any sense when you add them all together. So that— and I think that's kind of why I deliberately put it on there.

And so, mate, is the creator thing a label too many? I, I don't think so. I think it's more that I think I identify more with curating than creating.

[34:41] Paul: Yeah.

[34:42] Howard Gray: And I still wouldn't like to call myself a curator because that sounds— but I think that sounds— can feel kind of ostentatious as well. But I feel that I am much happier half a step back. And the way I would— the way I would explain this is if you go to the— if you see photos from the Oscars and everyone's on the red carpet of the movie and you've got the stars, you've got the director, you got everyone else. Sometimes the producer will be there too, but they'll be right at the edge of the photo and you're the— they're the one that you've got no idea who they are. That's me. So I mean, I'm in the photo, but I'm much happier just at the edge and the person that helped bring it together and enabled those others to stand in the limelight.

Like, I'm still in, I'm still in the photo, but I'm probably the guy you don't see. And so I think creator for me signifies being in the center of the frame. Curator, I'm at the edges. And that's where I actually prefer being there overall. So is creator a label I don't like? Yeah, probably.

But is it one too many? I don't know. I think I can wear as many as you want, but I'll still try and shake them all off and find a different one.

[35:59] Paul: I love that. Yeah, so let's go back to the parenting. How has this shaken up how you're thinking about things? How has it sharpened your approach to things?

[36:12] Howard Gray: Yes. So again, this goes to the sort of slice of life moment in time. So I'm 6 weeks in. It's been quite a ride. We like to— this is not a parenting podcast per se, but I guess it's, it's, it's still relevant. How has it sharpened things?

So the first month Doing anything work-wise more than about an hour at a time was extremely difficult. Doing anything strategic or creative was almost impossible. What I have found is that I'm— that the phrase I'm using is like I'm grabbing what I can. So I'm grabbing that. We're talking for, you know, 45 minutes or so. I've grabbed this time as a kind of interlude, and I found that I'm working in sprints more inadvertently, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

And the interesting thing with having a baby is you don't— they don't care. My son has no— he does not care that I'm on this podcast.

[37:12] Paul: I have a calendar.

[37:13] Howard Gray: I have a calendar. I'm still— I'm trying to get him onto Calendly at the moment, actually, to sign up to my schedule, but it's not happening. So I— but they don't— he doesn't care. And so whether, whether I'm talking to you for 1 minute or 1 hour, if he starts crying and needs something, I have to drop stuff. And so one of the sharpening things I did— and so maybe this is sort of a more tactical thing for people listening— is for month 1, I said, okay, the only people I'm going to talk to are people who are close friends or will completely understand if I cancel at 2 minutes' notice or even halfway through a call. Now, I did a little bit of work in the first 2 weeks, like a little bit of sort of nibbling at notes and stuff like that.

But I started doing calls sort of in week 3, and so, and I'm kind of still in that mode. This is one of— this is one, probably the first sort of official thing I've done since he was born. So that was one sharpening.

[38:07] Paul: You can leave at any time if you need to.

[38:10] Howard Gray: Thank you. I— that's why I said yes, because I know you're good like that. I appreciate it. So if you suddenly— this episode just finishes, that's because he needed something. So that was one thing that sharpened. The other— yeah, the sprint thing of like and the sprint can be interrupted, right?

You know, I could be 1 minute in and I need to change up, but I find 20, 30 minutes is usually a good enough gauge. And so I really have to go at stuff. And so like Cal Newport's whole thing about deep work, like, yeah, I love it, but like, that's not available to me right now. I can't do that. So how do I, how do I hack it so I can get into some sort of flow state in 20 minutes or less? And I'm still figuring that out, but I found like my Todoist thing that I use for my to-dos, I'd just be mercilessly stripping it and pushing everything back.

And really I'm only able to do 2 or 3 things a day. And I said yesterday to my wife, okay, I've done these 3 things and I felt miserable because I hadn't done enough. And she said, well, no, you did loads today. You did loads. And I think there's a big adjustment of expectations that's still going on for me, where I'm used to doing 10 or 11 hours working a day. Now I might be doing 2 or 3, and it's broken up.

Realistically, having a to-do list of 10 or 15 things is kryptonite because I'm never going to be satisfied. It's going to feel horrible every time. And so I'm just having to see what's the 1 or 2 things, but they're not even the 1 or 2 big things. It might just be something small. It's not actually that urgent or important because that's all I can muster. And so this is, this is, it's really interesting.

And I found, I found one other thing that's been, um, helpful with the sharpening is— this is kind of weird, but when it comes to writing, if the, if the blog post or the piece starts to flow on my phone at 4 in the morning when he's between feeding, like if I feel like it's starting to run, then I should probably should write that one. If it, if it's not happening, then it's probably not. And so that's like my current sort of measurement of whether whether this one can ship is, is can I, can I write bits of it on my phone at 4 AM? That's my current rubric. Very technical. I don't know whether McKinsey used that one or not, but probably not.

[40:31] Paul: Probably, but, uh, they weren't doing anything creative. Everyone would work all the time. Um, I love that. Yeah. I, so we were talking before we hit record and I've, I've had on and off health issues for years, but the last 16 months have been really tough for me. Um, and it's basically, I've had stretches a month at a time where I've been able to do very little to no work.

And it's had, I've been obsessive about what to work on because when I'm like feeling down and fatigued and not mentally I'm doing okay, I have this like backlog, this like tension of like all these things I want to do. And I've really just tried to narrow it down to one or two things. And for me, it's been the book this year. It's like if I get free time, I'm clear-headed and I have the energy, I'm gonna write. So most of that book I've written in aggressive stretches of time. And it's thrilling when I feel good.

I love it. It's like exactly what I want to be working on. But when I'm not, when I'm like not able to work or getting a backlog of all these emails and I'm canceling podcasts, I think I canceled this one probably a few times. But yeah, it sucks, but it's made like the same thing, the sharpening, the like, what are the two things I want to work on that are so important to me that I need to prioritize? And of course, it's like respond to emails of people that are paying me money. But it's really helped me focus and get through this book, I think, too.

[42:24] Howard Gray: Yeah, I hear you. And, you know, I haven't had personal health issues, but I think we can both say we've both had challenges around like time and energy being limited for various reasons and, and maybe not just energy, but like sort of cognition and creativity, you know, when you're recovering from something, whether it's lack of sleep or not feeling well like that, that can be really difficult. And I found myself struggling a few times of just like, oh God, I wish I could get this out of my brain because I can't think. I can't think clearly enough to do this. And so that's been challenging. My, my thing has been— I love what you said about thrilling with the book.

I think that's a lovely word which we don't use enough. And I think for me, the word that comes to mind is sort of untethered, where you're kind of just out doing the thing, like almost levitating to a degree. And I guess it's the sort of flow state or whatever, but finding that I think is magical. I think one of the tension points for me is paid work and unpaid work. Yeah, often it's my own stuff inevitably that gives me that feeling. But because of the limited time and energy that I've got, I have to be really careful where I put the spaces to do that stuff.

I make a sort of crass DJ analogy. There's a DJ called Sasha who I'm a big fan of who One day, one, one time, got a massive residency in New York, a really big venue. He played all night. He usually played 2 hours a set, and suddenly he's getting booked to play all night. And I remember in an interview that he did, he said, well, I've realized that playing all night, I have to place the big records really carefully. I can't just like whack out the big, the biggest song straight away.

In 2 hours I can because I'm playing like at a festival, just go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. If I'm playing all night, I have to be really careful. I had to place stuff. And I think how that relates to me is like the personal projects. If they're the big records, I have to place those really carefully. Like, I can't just go, yeah, personal stuff the whole time, because it's not going to work.

Um, and so the placement of where the kind of big moments or the kind of the untethered or the thrilling stuff— I think I'm having to really think through how I place those in my day, in my week, in my practice. That's something that I'm, I'm definitely still working through for sure. Aligned with like the thing around sort of stability financially and just sort of as a person being a new father, that's also part of it. So these sort of two things are kind of sitting together all the time. And so I'm definitely still working through what the one or two things to focus on are because I know the, the part— there's a part of me that wants to be thrilled, that wants to be untethered, that wants to just go and like write and share stuff and make goofy videos.

But there's also a part of me that knows I have to focus on very specific, like paid work and more kind of specific solid stuff rather than the more nebulous. So that's— I think as a dad, that's been— that's kicked in as an instinct. And I think that's a very primal thing, right? The kind of provider thing. It sounds very cliché, but I think that's, that's kicked in for me. and then that being at odds with, uh, finding what's thrilling.

I think trying to, trying to balance those two has been something I'm really working through at the moment.

[45:57] Paul: You're playing a higher degree of difficulty game than me too in New York.

[46:03] Howard Gray: Um, yes, yes, I should acknowledge I live in New York.

[46:06] Paul: Yeah, yeah. How do you think about money as a solopreneur in terms of I've explored this a lot with people recently. So the way I kind of think about it is kind of like an annual cost of living. Okay, here's what I kind of project I can make and then like break that down monthly. And it's like, okay, if I'm like more or less around that, like I'm feeling pretty good. And like if I'm consistently making money, I'm feeling pretty good.

How do, how do you mentally think about the financial side of this path?

[46:41] Howard Gray: Yeah, this is a complex question actually, so, uh, I'll try and break it out a bit. So yeah, I live in New York, very high cost of living as you know firsthand, very high, amongst the highest I think. Um, I think it's always important to acknowledge what came before, and I think part of the sort of creator economy that I find a bit annoying is the lack of acknowledgement of this. So I'm married. My wife had a corporate job which was very well paid. She's obviously on maternity leave now.

So we, you know, she was able to partly support us. I think it's important for me to acknowledge that, you know, where we live in New York, in an expensive city, but we've done, you know, we've done okay. We don't come from like awful hardship. We don't have many, many dependents to support. So I just, I think it's important for me to say that first is, yeah, I'm— I've done okay. I don't come from millions, but like, I've, you know, I am supported in some way.

However, having said that, the thing around money is really challenging for me. I think this is a deep-rooted thing around like there being enough to go around, scarcity mindset, whatever else, maybe from where I grew up, all of that kind of stuff. Being like a sort of poorer kid in a fairly affluent area when I was— when I was younger, I think probably had an effect on me. And so I think I definitely try and think annually rather than monthly. I still look at my accounting software now and look at like August. I think I made— I think there was income of $0.20 from Medium, like $6 from like some other residual or something.

And that was it. And so if I was looking at my—

[48:19] Paul: Internet money, baby.

[48:21] Howard Gray: Internet money, baby. Yeah. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go crazy. Then I, then that would be extremely anxiety-inducing.

But I have to look annually at least. And when it comes to client stuff, where my focus is now is on working on longer-term multi-year projects. So I've got something that's been in the works for 7, 8 months and it hasn't converted yet and it may not convert. If it does, that's a multi-year project that can fund me and a team for like a year and a half, 2 years. So that's a very different animal to selling a course on Teachable for $100. So I'm definitely kind of— I'm definitely sat in between the two.

Yeah. So I've definitely— I'm sort of thinking annually and I think alongside that is having a smaller revenue stream. So I've basically got two kind of routes. One is the big, big multi-year type projects, which are obviously massively long lead times. And everything else. And then at the opposite end is a smaller stream from my own output, and those are, you know, definitely small, but maybe give me enough for disposable income.

And I think really where I'm, I'm landing is the third stream is trickiest, and the third stream is the middle, and the middle is smaller consulting projects coaching, speaking, stuff like that. And I think where it was challenging is how much of that do I want to commit to? And yeah, I would like to not commit to too much of that because I know that it's for varying reasons not quite where I want to be. And so you could almost call it regression to the mean, I suppose. If you look at it as a bell curve, you've got your kind of internet money baby at one end I've got kind of big programs at the other, and then in the middle is the kind of collection of kind of what I think a lot of people probably on this podcast have gravitated to, which is like online courses, some coaching, consulting stuff, things like that.

And so I think what I'm trying to do is try and flatten the curve, so to speak, a little bit. But it's a lot harder than it looks.

[50:37] Paul: Yeah, I think, I think that's a great way to break it down. It's also super helpful to talk about these things, I think, because there's not really a roadmap. One thing that people face, and I was shocked at how little I had ever thought about my relationship to money, the fears I hid behind my money stories and all that. When I left full-time work, it was like, oh, I'm good with money and know what I'm doing.

[51:04] Howard Gray: Boom.

[51:05] Paul: Paul, you need to freak out about money all the time because you don't have any right now. And it was, it was a bit shocking to me. And people always ask me, like, don't you worry about money? How do you do this path? And it's like, yeah, I worry about money all the time. But I try to turn those monies into like kind of like mental models and principles like you have.

[51:28] Howard Gray: Yeah. So just to be clear, I worry about it all the time. Every single day. Every single day. And I think I've been before going out alone. I mean, I was a founder for like 8 or 8 years as well.

So I mean, arguably I've sort of been, I've been pretty much independent like most of my career. I think I've been competent at doing okay. And there's probably some blockers in there where maybe, you know, some mindset stuff around like not able to go to a level beyond that. But I think I've been, I've been competent at being just about okay, to get to your thing around where people say, hey Paul, how do you manage to make enough money to survive and all of that? I think I've managed to be, get competent at being able to just about do all right. But I think beyond that, for varying reasons, I think I found really hard.

And so, yeah, I think about it all the time. And now I'm in this point where I'm living in New York with a baby and, you know, my wife's not going back to work for a while. The, the owner switches to, to me very much for our family. And so, B, I can doing just okay, that doesn't work anymore because okay is a different level, it's a different number. And then also that gets back to the choosing what to work on and whether it's the stuff that's thrilling or less so. And so I think, you know, we're talking through like 3 or 4 sort of different angles around this.

I think when you mix all of them together, it can be really quite hard to work through and quite confusing and quite conflicting as well. So I appreciate that you have these conversations on the podcast, but I don't think many people do. They really don't. And so, and I think for anyone seeking to go out alone, having a better understanding of how you view finances and what you earn and what you work and all of this stuff, you'll never get it perfect straight away. But at least having an idea that, oh, this is a thing or a topic or something that you may be challenged by. I think that's a great start in itself because I know when I went out to start with on my own, I didn't think about it one bit.

[53:36] Paul: Yeah, I think it's— and everyone has money worries. I haven't found a single person that has some sort of money issue. The thing I think people miss is when you're on your own, you have two things. When you're full-time and thinking about taking a leap, you might be thinking, oh my God, money's gonna be so scary, I might go broke. The reality is it shifts from one big giant abstract fear to tiny little existential crises every day, right? The other side of that is you can actually do something about it, right?

Like, I think what's calmed my fears is I've made money in a bunch of different ways. I've gone through multiple stretches without any income, and I've also realized, hey, I'll take a job at a bar if I need it, or a restaurant, or like, there are ways to make money that you don't think about when you're employed full-time.

[54:40] Howard Gray: 100%. Um, and I'm kind of leaning toward the, the Elizabeth Gilbert frame on this. The author, uh, I think it's maybe relevant just to mention briefly here. People can go to the YouTube for this, but she does a great talk on, um, unpicking hobbies, jobs, careers, and vocations. And I think where a lot of people get caught up in what you said about the bar job is that we we mistake our job for a career or a career for a job and vice versa. So she says she's worked— her vocation is an author.

That's the thing she will do forever. You know, as we've been talking about, the thing you can do for 10, 20, 30 years. But along the way, she's had plenty of jobs. She's worked in bars, she's done waitressing, all kinds of stuff. She's never really had a career because the author work is the vocation supported by a number of jobs. And then your hobby could be basket weaving or coffee making or whatever.

And I think I think it's a really— it's like an 8-minute YouTube thing. I think it's really important distinction because so many people get caught up in this. And so like you said, if I need to make money, I can get a job in a bar or doing the thing. And so I think it's for me even now, it's relevant of like, what's the day job? And one of my favorite podcasts other than this one, of course, is The Moment with Brian Koppelman, who created Billions and Ocean's 13. Yeah, I love The Moment.

Great podcast. And in that he talks about— I mean, they talk about a lot of stuff around what we're talking about, but the idea of like, don't quit the day job. And it's so corny, but they give it a lot more meaning than that. But that identifying even what the day job is and like, what is a job for you? And I think maybe when you go out on your own, it's easy to tangle up the thrilling book writing stuff with the job or the vocation with the hobby or the career with the job. And I think getting clear on that and making peace with it can be really helpful for people.

So yeah, if anyone listening wants to check out the Elizabeth Gilbert thing, please do. You should also go to The Moment, but don't, don't let it stop you from listening to this podcast. That's my only word of warning there.

[56:48] Paul: I'll link up to both. Yeah, I love that. I think It never occurred to me that like I could have a job that didn't kind of suck. I, like, I worked 10 years in strategy consulting and I, I kind of liked everything I did and I kind of hated all of it. So my orientation towards work was kind of like, all right, do it, try to succeed in the career, be like a good, responsible, successful person, but like minimize that and like vacation. Optimize time outside of work.

What I've found now is like, I love that framework you just brought up, which is a much lighter relationship to work where my Strategy U stuff is very much a job, but like I don't have a career path, right? It's, it's a job I do as a professional. I show up, I try to crush it. I try to do great things. I try to experiment. I bring a little bit of the Boundless Reimagine Work Paul there and and maybe make a couple jokes about quitting your job, but more or less that's kind of my job.

And then the writing, I do not want that to be a job because I don't want somebody to start controlling what I'm saying. So I'm self-publishing. I'm not searching for a publisher to slow me down or change my process and things like that because I don't want it to be a job.

[58:16] Howard Gray: And yeah, I think 100% that's— yeah, that I think, and I can't take any credit for it, but it is great. And I think what you said actually maybe gets us back to what the thing around the kind of creator economy, which I think maybe both of us have a bit of a tricky time with, is that it's been co-opted somewhat, is that maybe in that those four things have been conflated. And so you're clear on the—

[58:42] Paul: I agree.

[58:43] Howard Gray: Strategy is a job. I show up, I do great work. I will maybe inject a bit of that Paul, the other Paul, into it. But like generally that's a job. I go and do a great job. I turn up, get paid for it, then I sign out for the day or the week or whatever the thing is.

Meanwhile, the writing is a vocation and you'll keep knowing you as I do and reading your work. I don't expect you to stop anytime soon. You're just going to keep, you're just going to keep doing it. Same for me with my blogging. Like, I'm not going to stop. I just, I just, I'm just not going to.

I don't see how I would. I think the challenge of this model or this co-opting or coining of this term is that it's pushing people to conflate the two. Hey, Paul, you're a creator. You can make money out of this. Then you end up not sure what's a job, not sure what's a vocation. The thrill starts to disappear.

I think it's so seductive but also such a trap.

[59:42] Paul: Well, I think there's, there's another element too, which is that some of the people that are succeeding in the go-hard, in the creator mode, are very well suited to it. Now, that's probably not you and I. There are certain people which can kind of go in business mode, crush it, and that's like that is the state they are alive in, right? So I was listening to somebody talking about launching a podcast and a newsletter, and they were talking about, oh, maybe testing, like, if I do these two and there's unsubscribing rates, like, I'm gonna back off, or I'll double down, and then I'll invest more, and then I'll run ads. And he's talking about the same thing with the podcast, and I'm just thinking, this is a different species from what I'm doing.

[01:00:30] Howard Gray: Like, that's actually a great observation. It's a great observation.

[01:00:36] Paul: And my approach was basically, all right, I'm going to start a podcast to do 6 episodes and see if I learn anything interesting. And then if I like it, I'll keep doing it. And I think this is episode like 93 or something. So we're still here. It's fun. I haven't made any money from it.

And so, yeah, it's a different species.

[01:00:56] Howard Gray: Oh, 100%. I love that you said that. And so if we go back to what's thrilling— so you said what's thrilling, you know, I just love that word used with the writing, when those moments where you're like, I'm in that groove, the book's coming together, it's like thrilling because I'm just doing it, the words are just flying off the page. And I think, well, that is thrilling for you. For some other people, the business of being a creator— and if we go back to Bryan Copperman and Billions, there's probably characters in Billions where the thrill is like the, that the game, the game of business and the game of like being a, being a creator with a capital C and being this like kind of personality and cranking it and crushing it and all of that. That, that is the thrill.

And like, good for them. But like, I don't think I'm that. Doesn't sound like you are either. And so part maybe for those listening who are thinking about this, maybe it is a prompt is what is thrilling for you. And if it is the crushing and making the money and building the systems and getting the likes on Twitter and all of that stuff, like, hey, go for it. And that's maybe that way is the way to go.

But if what's thrilling is something different, acknowledging that as early as you can, I think is really important.

[01:02:11] Paul: Yeah, I like to think of it as something like the long, slow stupid fun path.

[01:02:18] Howard Gray: Yeah.

[01:02:20] Paul: Where does it go? I, and again, I think this comes back to the background. I see a lot of people entering the creator world very young, right? So I worked 10 years and I kind of know in the back of my head, okay, I can go back and get a job. I don't want to create another job for myself. So I'm going to be aggressively leaning in the opposite direction of optimizing for fun and that creative energy because otherwise I'm just ending up where I started.

And I think that's that like liminal space is the most interesting thing for me because hanging out in that space is not easy. I still feel like an idiot. I see some people putting a course out and crushing it. I'm like, oh my God, am I stupid? Am I not optimizing the stuff the best, like, should I be doing this and that? I still think that.

But then I go— then I put it through my filter, the long, slow, stupid, fun path, and say, not, not going to work. Let's still play over here.

[01:03:27] Howard Gray: And it'll be interesting to see if that changes when I have kids. Yeah. And I think it's— I'm doing a better job of— so this gets back to the thing around like focus and focus filtering, I suppose, is the filter becomes stronger because I just don't— I just don't have the time to. I caught myself in it last night, actually, the trap, like some new course. And there's a lot of people going nuts about it and it's like, yeah, and I caught myself in the FOMO trap or, oh God, I don't know what I'm doing, blah, blah. And then baby started crying.

Oh, guess why the thought went. And I think the filter has strengthened. Because I just can't afford to think about that, that, that other, that next thing. And also it's not, it's not me. Like, I'm not that, I'm not that tribe. I'm not for that.

I'm— it's just not, not aligned for where I'm at. And I think the long, slow, stupid path is 100% true. And it's fine for me. I know that I can keep doing the writing and the riffs and the slices of life for a long, long time. The trap is when I catch myself spending too much of my time on that because that is just— that is the vocation. And so, yeah, going back to the job versus vocation, I think having that clarity of when am I spending time on the job and when am I spending time on the vocation is really important.

And I suppose when we talk about careers, like we're not— me and you aren't even talking about a career here, right? We're talking about a job and a vocation, really. Like, I don't, I don't know if a book, if the authoring is a career for you. I don't know. Like, I feel like it's more of a vocational thing that you'll just keep, you'll just keep doing it. And so people talk about careers a lot and future of work.

Maybe what we're getting to here is like actually the word career, I wouldn't go as far as redundant, but for a lot of people like that word may not sort of work anymore because we're going to have Yeah, jobs and vocational things and hobbies.

[01:05:33] Paul: Yeah, I love that. Are there models you look to, like older people ahead of you on similar paths that say, okay, that's, that's kind of a template of what I could see? I mean, one example for me is I think Seth Godin. He's 60 now, and it's what I see there again is the energy. It's like, okay, there's a Man, 60, still fully alive, energized, and doing creative stuff. I could see that.

Are there people for you that you kind of aim towards or personal mentors you have?

[01:06:06] Howard Gray: Yeah, I think for many of us in this sort of realm and who are having conversations like this, I think Seth is probably the beacon in a lot of ways. The discipline and work ethic I find terrifying. Honestly, that he has. And look, let's be honest, I, I think he's an incredibly smart person. I don't know if you can become as smart and succinct and everything else as, as him. I, I think it's— so I massively look up to someone like that, but I think it can also be dangerous to think I could be that.

Um, because I think this gets to a whole thing around talent versus skills, which is a whole other, you know, learning versus not being able to learn, which is a whole other podcast. Um, I, I like Derek Sivers a lot because it's just his writing. It's just a slice. It's just like little slices of life and it's like little stories from him doing stuff. And I relate to that a lot. And I don't think there's enough people that write from that perspective.

So I think I model a bit of my writing on his. Um, I like what, um, Rob Fitzpatrick does, um, who wrote The Mum Test and has written a new book called Write Useful Books. Um, and Rob's gone from a sort of journey of like Y Combinator, become a massive startup, to lifestyle business living on a beach, to now the sort of middle bit, which is, could I just have like a business that's got maybe a couple of staff and like ticks over and is quite good? And I think his journey has been quite interesting. I think this is hard for me to say because we're so different and the guy's such an icon, or was.

I'm a really big Anthony Bourdain fan, and I feel like what I'm really chasing— and maybe this gets all the way back to the beginning around stories— is I think what Bourdain was marvelous at, many things, but one of them was shining a lens on people we didn't usually see, highlighting the underdogs, and being able to put both the Michelin star and the street food together, uh, and showing us slices of life from around the world. And for me, that's thrilling. So I had a job, I was a channel agent for like 8, 10 years, and the best bit, the best bit was when I got to travel to interesting places, but not just interesting places. I got to hang out with the locals. So the promoter of the show would— I would go a couple of days early and I would spend like 3 days in Beirut and the local promoters would like show me around and we'd hang out.

We'd, you know, it's still a slightly kind of touristy version of it, but I felt like I was getting under the skin of the place a little bit. And I just found that so fascinating. And those people and their stories and the fact that they were rooted in culture and they were bringing people around a thing, in that case music, I just found like so vital and I just loved it. And I think I'm, I am really chasing like what, what bits of Bourdain's work can I inject into mine? Because I think trying to position myself as I want to be Anthony Bourdain is ridiculous because I can't be, and nor should I want to be. Like, it's tragic.

And also the guy was probably a once in a generation talent, I suppose, but I think there's elements of like the chasing stories of humans, understanding the world, showing the world in new ways, particularly the one people we don't always see, that's really appealing to me. So I think things I model, yeah, I think people like Seth Godin for their, their work ethic and their like constant creativity, like on an ongoing basis at the age of 60, but then also that kind of fire. And this gets us back to the prodigy as well, the kind of slightly punk alternative, I don't really care what you think, I'm just going to bring all these things together in a, in a melting pot way of someone like Bourdain. I find that really appealing and I feel like we probably need more voices like that because I think a lot of stuff is kind of becoming contrarian conformity.

We're being contrarian for the sake of it, which means it just ends up conforming. Ironically, it kind of eats itself somewhat. And so as my friend Tom says, you know, Howard, you should be more punk. And so I think maybe what I'm looking to model or seeking is where can the punk stuff show up and where can I sort of find those slices of life. So that's what— sorry, that was a long, that's a long riff. But I do, I do think, I think that's, that's, those are a couple of people that come to mind.