Boundless Podcast: Tanya Alvarez on resilience, entrepreneurship & community (Episode 12)

[01:00] Paul: Welcome to The Boundless Podcast. I'm Paul Millerd and I created this podcast because I'm passionate about making sense of the future of work and having conversations with the innovators, creators, and thought leaders who are carving their path in today's fast-changing world. You can check out the podcast and more on boundlesspod.com. Today I talk with Pauri Pandian, who's the men's and women's tennis head coach at Wheaton College. He's had a really interesting path, and we dive into that and how he ended up pursuing coaching as a career, and also some of his interests and thoughts around leadership, coaching, and how he approaches, uh, coaching different types of teams.

He's also involved in the Healthy Masculinity Project, and we dig into that a bit and talk about what is the role for men and what are the models for men and leadership in today's world, which is, I found pretty fascinating. Hope you enjoy the podcast today. Again, thanks again to all you wonderful, wonderful listeners. Uh, you are the best and appreciate any feedback. Uh, if you want to hear different guests, different topics, you want to hear me talk about different things, just, uh, let me know. Email me in the show notes.

And if you're liking what you're hearing and, uh, are feeling super generous and want to, uh, support me, uh, you can support me for a dollar a month. Uh, that is less than most things cost on Patreon, so check that link in the show notes. And, um, hope you enjoy the pod today. Pauri, welcome to the podcast today.

[02:46] Pauri Pandian: Paul, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[02:49] Paul: I am excited as well. So we've known each other for a while and we've had some pretty awesome discussions and I thought it'd be awesome to jump on the podcast and dive into some of these. I think you have some interesting ideas around performance, coaching, and learning, and I'm also just fascinated in exploring how you thought about carving a path. Because you weren't pursuing like a typical business career. So we'll dig into all that, but I'd love to start with just asking you a little bit about tennis. When did you first start playing tennis?

[03:25] Pauri Pandian: So I first started when I was 7 years old. You know, I think I, like a lot of people, wanted to play football and baseball and your quote unquote all-American sports. And my parents put a tennis racket in my hands. And I also played base— sorry, basketball and soccer and had a blast. But yeah, I started playing when I was 7 and probably played all 3 sports up until high school. And then when I got to high school, I sort of really started specializing in tennis and kind of, you know, had thoughts about playing tennis in college at that point.

[04:00] Paul: So were you like me thinking professional athlete when you were growing up?

[04:05] Pauri Pandian: No, no, no, that was not part of the mindset in my Indian household. It was very much academics first. And then everything else came after that. But also I think part of it is I think with tennis you see even when you're young, even when I'm training in middle school, you know that these young players are, they're pro and making it at least at that point. It's kind of changed a little bit now, but I remember watching Andy Roddick play in the US Open when he was like 18. And so if I'm 14, I'm like, I got a little ways to go to get to that point.

So it wasn't a huge part of the mindset there.

[04:46] Paul: So how did you think about playing tennis in college though? You ended up going to Wesleyan, which is a pretty awesome school academically, but how did tennis play into that?

[04:57] Pauri Pandian: Well, I, I played, you know, I loved playing the sport. I loved playing on my high school team. I think, you know, junior tennis players generally are playing for their high school team, and then they're also mainly playing US Tennis Association tournaments, and that's how you can get regional rankings and national rankings, and those aren't very fun, I don't think. It's not a great atmosphere in a lot of ways. The competition and the level of play is obviously really high, but I found that— and so I did those, probably not as extensively as other junior players, but I did those, but I found that the most fun I had was when I was playing on my high school tennis team and also kind of growing up playing on basketball teams and soccer teams. So I knew I knew that I wanted it to be a part of my experience in college.

That being said, because I didn't play a ton of USTA events, I knew that sort of my brain was going to first and foremost sort of get me to where I wanted to go. And then I was sort of comfortable with the idea of walking onto a team. So I had actually talked to the coach who was there at the time when I was going through the application process. Applied early, got in, and then he retired. So I had a new coach that I was kind of starting my career with, which was fine. Again, I had no qualms about sort of earning my place.

And I also had a friend of mine who was a year older than me who was on the women's team, and she kind of knew my level. She knew where the men's team's level was at.

[06:37] Paul: And so she was like, "Yeah, you should feel pretty comfortable about being on this team." So when, when in college did you start thinking seriously about pursuing tennis as a possible career path? I don't know if you would even call it a career path. That, that rings business for me.

[06:54] Pauri Pandian: But yeah, no, I think, well, in the summers I was always coaching. I would work at some different tennis camps, whether some local, some, some sort of in Western Mass. And I love teaching and I think that teaching in various roles kind of runs in my family, particularly on my dad's side. And so, I love the sport but I really enjoyed working with kids. And so, that being said, I wasn't— when I was finishing up school, I was sort of of the mindset, "Well, I'm going to move to Boston and then I'll kind of figure it all out." from there. And, you know, we were— I graduated in 2008, so June of 2008, the pickings could be a little bit slim at that point.

[07:48] Paul: I don't know what's worse to grad— probably '09 was the really bad year, but I think it was starting to get bad around then.

[07:55] Pauri Pandian: Indeed, indeed. And I had thoughts about doing like Teach for America. I actually went through like the whole application process and was at the point where I was picking my training dates and—

[08:07] Paul: Oh, wow.

[08:08] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, every single training date they offered conflicted with my sister's wedding in India. And so, I asked them, I was like, "Well, can I defer a year?" And they just said flat out, "No, you can't. You're in or you're out." And so, I was like, which is kind of shocking. And so, I mean, my being in that experience for my sister and going to India at that time was important to me. And, um, and it also, and, and I have just issues with Teach for America in general. Like there's a lot of good things about it, but there's a lot of issues with the organization as well.

And so it wasn't heartbreaking for me to have to say no to that, um, or to choose to say no to that, I suppose. Awesome.

[08:52] Paul: So, so it sounds like teaching was like a really strong driver for you.

[08:56] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, yeah.

[08:57] Paul: When— so where did you go from there? You started, you started getting into coaching, or at least— sure, yeah, a little more seriously.

[09:07] Pauri Pandian: So once I finished school, I was back, back in the Boston area where I grew up for a little bit, then went to India for a portion of the summer to spend some time there and, and go and be at my sister's wedding. And then when I came back, I went out to Western Mass to work at these overnight tennis camps that I'd been working at for a number of years. And then the, the director and the co-director there run a junior training club in Central Mass. And so they asked me if I wanted to come aboard in the fall. And I, at that point, I didn't have any— I didn't really have a ton lined up and I hadn't like looked into a ton of stuff. And so it was a good opportunity because I knew them, I knew I'd work well with them.

They took real— they've taken great care of me throughout my life, and I had known them since I was probably 15 or 16. So, um, it was, it was an easy thing to say yes to.

[10:07] Paul: Right. When, so when did that start, uh, bubbling in your head? Maybe this is a path I could follow more seriously or long-term.

[10:17] Pauri Pandian: I think, um, I think over the course of that year I was, I was teaching with them. I was teaching at a few different places. I was doing some SAT and ACT tutoring at that time as well. I was kind of just hustling and then that following summer— sorry, the following spring, so we're talking spring of 2009, I started coaching a high school team in the Boston area and I—

[10:44] Paul: And there were no jobs then anyway, so.

[10:46] Pauri Pandian: Right, exactly. So whatever I— it was kind of the question was whether it was worth trying to apply to just go back to school and get a master's, whether it's a master's in education or something, and I I just didn't, I didn't want to do it at that point. I think it was, I felt it was important to work and kind of just, I didn't want to just be right back in that academic setting. And so it was sort of at that point, and I think by that spring I had started to really accumulate a good amount of students and, you know, felt good about what I was doing. And I felt like I was improving as a coach and as a teacher. And so that's where I started to, That was probably the first time I really started kind of thinking about this being a more long-term path.

[11:34] Paul: From there, how did you end up at Brandeis?

[11:38] Pauri Pandian: So I started up there in the fall of 2011. So after my third year of coaching where I was primarily teaching out of this club and working with juniors privately and then coaching this coaching a high school team in the spring, I kind of realized going basically in that summer, I was— I felt like I love— I was coaching tennis, say, for 50, 52 weeks a year. And, of that period of time, what I enjoyed the most was the 8 weeks I was coaching this high school team. I loved being in that team setting and really being able to set the tone and help develop those kids within that setting. And so, I had kind of made the decision at that point that I was— that was going to be my last year doing that in that capacity.

I don't actually know how many people I've told that to, but yeah, I was like, if I'm gonna probably change what I'm doing, just because I, you know, working just as a teaching pro at clubs can be, can be great in certain ways, but it's also just a grind, and I felt like I wasn't able to really, really kind of make it a rewarding experience would have been to take over, you know, some— try to take over, get a director position at some small club. And I just felt like I knew that that wasn't necessarily the right fit for me. And then at Brandeis, it was sort of the— it was a fortuitous phone call where My assistant coach at the high school that I was coaching was also a former college tennis player. He went— he's from New England. He went to— he played at Amherst. Our teams played against each other when we were in college, and he and I became really close working together with the teams.

He was a teacher at that school. And the Brandeis head coach was looking for an assistant coach. And so I got connected to the head coach at Brandeis through my buddy Josh. And then it's sort of, you know, we had a couple of long conversations, me and Coach Ben Lamanna over there, and realized our values were very much in line. And it just, it felt right. And I had a good friend of mine who had played for Ben and had nothing but phenomenal things to say.

So I felt good about that, about that choice and that sort of option.

[14:19] Paul: Awesome. What are some of those values?

[14:22] Pauri Pandian: Ah, well, he's, um, I think first and foremost, Ben and I both, um, when we're coaching our teams, I think we care a lot. We do care about our results. I think we care about building nationally ranked teams and All-Americans and all that, but I think we really care a lot about our players. I think to be a really great coach, you have to just invest in your players, not just as athletes, but as people. I think that just the way he communicates with his players, he's not like a yeller and screamer. Treats them like adults and tries to really build trust and just wants to help them become well-rounded.

And that was my experience in my college tennis program. I felt like I became a way better person, and that was one of sort of the driving forces looking back on it where I felt this was a great opportunity to kind of pay that forward.

[15:29] Paul: Sounds like you were pretty successful there. I mean, top 30 in the country, 6 All-Americans, National Coaching Awards. What were some of the factors that drove that success, you think?

[15:41] Pauri Pandian: I mean, first and foremost, he and I just— we grinded. We were out there. We were putting in the hours to just develop our players. I think, you know, we— I think the way we thought through our Program building is first and foremost having a really positive team culture. So, you know, we, we tell all— we told all of our players, I think he continues to do that to this day, I certainly do with mine now, that their first responsibility was to be a great teammate, to be selfless, to, you know, to, to care about each other, to learn about each other off the court. And then to— and then our other big piece was the player development, and that's partly that's partly developing them physically with just whatever tools they need to actually execute on court, but also mentally and emotionally.

And so, it's just sort of attacking all three phases there and being really consistent with that.

[16:41] Paul: I'm actually curious. You mentioned being a good teammate is the first thing. And I think— so, I played tennis, but ultimately, tennis is a pretty individual sport. Of course, you're always together as a team, How do you think about tennis as a collection of individuals versus the team and how you bring that together? I mean, the doubles, you have teams for sure.

[17:04] Pauri Pandian: For sure, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's sort of the big— one of the big differences with rec tennis versus junior tournament tennis compared to high school and certainly college tennis where in a college tennis match, the scoring is a little different or between Division I and Division III, but say in Division III, there's 3 doubles matches followed by 6 singles matches. And so there's 9 matches total, each is worth 1 point. So whichever school wins 5 of the 9 points wins that match. And you need to, I think players to really carve out those 5 points in even matchups, you need people who have a driving force behind them that's more than just themselves. And they, it is one of those things.

I think this is across a lot of sports where if the talent, if one player is just physically just dominant over another player, like that stuff, the culture doesn't necessarily matter. You know, they're gonna win.

[18:13] Paul: Right?

[18:13] Pauri Pandian: But in an even matchup, that's where when it's a 4-4 match and there's someone playing that, they're in their last— in that they're the last match on, and whichever player wins, they're going to win the match for their school. They're gonna, they're gonna execute better if they believe that their team believes in them, you know? And if they can— if they have a group of teammates that are that just care about them and are cheering for them and are being nice and loud. So yeah, it's a funny thing because if you go watch a college tennis match, it's pretty loud, which I think most people wouldn't necessarily expect within the sport.

[18:55] Paul: Yeah. What are some of the signs that you use to judge and say to yourself, okay, we have a good culture here, things are headed in the right direction?

[19:04] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, for sure. It's, um, it was interesting, uh, particularly these last, these last few years where I took over a program. And I remember, you know, the first thing was in like the very first practice I, I ran, it was just so quiet.

[19:20] Paul: Uh-oh.

[19:20] Pauri Pandian: And I just brought everyone in.

[19:24] Paul: And was Brandeis, was Brandeis kind of like a loud, like more, uh, yeah, yeah.

[19:29] Pauri Pandian: And Ben had, by the time I got there, he was I think 5 years in. So the cult, he had kind of, I think We brought in, we continued to bring in better and better talent and continued to improve on it, but he had set the foundation with the culture of the program. And so when I took over at Wheaton, it was, I remember my, these first practices were so quiet and I just, it was constantly prodding people to just cheer each other on during practices. And the nature of the sport compared to a lot of other sports is you literally have a break after every single point, after every single rally. You have to go pick up a ball. Like, there is a break.

So during that time, my big thing is that you have to be purposeful with that time. It's— and because you're going to spend, in reality, you're going to spend a lot more time walking around picking up tennis balls than you actually are hitting tennis balls. And so those are all opportunities to be a great teammate and to build someone up.

[20:29] Paul: Yeah. And it seems like that's where a lot of the opportunity might be, kind of the breaks I mean, tennis is such a mental sport. How do you think about helping people navigate that, where they'll reflect on points or start getting in ruts mentally?

[20:48] Pauri Pandian: So we have different methodologies for it, and sort of each player is going to kind of customize it, going to customize it. But the main method that I've used throughout my career with players was developed by this performance psychologist named Jim Lair, who he calls it the 16-second Cure. And so, between every tennis point, you're technically allowed 20 seconds. And so, with the 16-second cure, there's 4 steps. The first step is a positive response. So, whatever happened, whether you won the point, lost the point, there's a positive response.

Step 2 is relaxation. So, for us, it's walking back to the fence and taking a couple long deep breaths. Step 3 is preparing what I'm making a plan for, what I'm gonna do for the next point. And then step 4 is ritual. So you're serving or returning ritual. And then one of the things I added into step 4 is at that point, they, the players, have to either say something verbally out loud that's positive to themselves or to the team or to their, to a teammate.

So it's just being very consistent with that. And so players kind of So, that's the framework and then different players are going to sort of adapt it a little bit, but that's sort of the basic framework.

[22:06] Paul: That's pretty cool. I'm trying to think of how I can incorporate that in my work.

[22:11] Pauri Pandian: Well, the biggest thing and like the biggest part of it and that we spend probably the most time is just relaxation. It's just taking a deep breath. People don't breathe. So many of the answers in life come from just taking a step back and taking a deep breath.

[22:30] Paul: That's pretty interesting. I think having worked in the business world, we're not really taught anything like this. Everything is kind of go, go, go, go, go, productivity, productivity, productivity. And it's interesting how sports, it's very performance-driven. You can kind of judge the outcomes. But there often are these spaces in most sports where you do have that downtime.

And it's easy to insert kind of this reflective or emotional intelligence practice. How do you— what do you think people could learn from these things to implement in their lives?

[23:07] Pauri Pandian: I think people feel like they need to have an answer really, really quickly, and they need to accomplish things really quickly, and quicker doesn't mean better. And so I think just across, across whatever discipline you're, you're working in, I think when someone's asking you to do something or asking you a question, just being willing to just take a second to just think about what you're actually gonna, like what's the most productive response there? And being okay with saying, I need to figure this out. And—

[23:50] Paul: Right. I just edited out my own pause, or it will be edited out in the final version, but I was reflecting on your previous question. I had to kind of take a second to digest it and figure out where to take it. So you're coaching both men and women, both at Brandeis and now at Wheaton, which beyond being just impressive coaching two teams, how do you think about coaching men versus women? And what have you learned?

[24:20] Pauri Pandian: And it's, it's interesting. I mean, I think just the, the biggest part of it is I've grown up on men, on boys, and then men's sports teams. And so the communication piece is one where I didn't have to really think too hard about it. I think, you know, I think I was a thoughtful teammate and I tried to communicate well, but the sort of like the quick off-the-cuff responses to whatever's going on. I've had, say, by the time I got into college coaching, I probably had been playing on teams since I was in kindergarten in some capacity. And so, we're looking at 20 years of experience around that, around boys and men.

And, on the women's side, It's trying to have the same values, but understanding that sometimes the communication has to be— I just have to think more about it. And so I don't actually think I'm saying very different things. I'm just sort of probably pausing a little bit more before saying those and kind of, you know, also noting that there, we try to sort of treat each player individually and sort of figure out how to connect with each of them. But I think I just sort of, I think I've done a decent job of sort of self-educating myself on just the history of male dominance in our society and sort of just knowing that I need to be, something I say in the same tone and with the same messaging may be internalized different because of just implicit biases that have been sort of part of people's consciousness since they were born.

[26:11] Paul: Building on that, how did you get involved in the Healthy Masculinity Project?

[26:16] Pauri Pandian: It was— there was another coach who, who was sort of spearheading it, and it was something that's interesting to me. I think that kind of growing up, my, my dad wasn't sort of that traditional, like, kind of super traditional man. He was, he was pretty, he could be, he was pretty in touch with his emotions. He was willing to be expressive. He was very much a proponent of sort of just, you know, helping, helping women, helping people of color, helping all sorts of whatever different type of people you could meet. And so, that was kind of part of my consciousness.

And, I think that one of the things you sort of see through coaching in particular is that players are just in these emotional spaces throughout competition and men are just not very good at expressing that well and channeling it well a lot of the times. A lot of the times, they do a phenomenal job and then, A good amount of the times they do not. And I think there's a big struggle with men, particularly college-age men, being able to express themselves constructively. And so it was a really cool opportunity to kind of step into that space to try to work on that.

[27:46] Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, that definitely resonates with me. I think part of the challenges we just don't have the role models, right? Or the, the people we're looking at and saying, okay, I can actually be like that. But definitely something I've struggled with as well.

[28:02] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's, it's all of us. It was, it just wasn't a really, it's not really a part of the, the consciousness. And I think it kind of ties in just in general to emotional intelligence, which is something that you know, sort of society sort of forces on women in certain ways but doesn't hold men to that standard growing up. And so it's just kind of like this vicious cycle, you know, when you eventually kind of go into a super results-driven arena as a career. It just, it sort of perpetuates, it can perpetuate itself.

[28:39] Paul: Great. How do you answer the question, uh, how do you be a man?

[28:44] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, I think, I think the goal with our project at Wheaton is to, is to broaden that definition, because right now it's very constricted. Sort of toxic masculinity is about putting, putting men into a box, and it's a pretty closed box. And healthy masculinity, as we, as I see it, as we see it, is about sort of broadening that. And so It can be a lot of different things, but at the core, the values of caring for your peers and people around you just as people, that comes first, and compassion needs to be a big piece of it. And so it's, we're just doing our best to give give these young men the tools to be able to communicate well, to understand that you can be— being compassionate doesn't make you weak, it just makes you more well-rounded.

[29:51] Paul: So what's one action, uh, you might tell somebody that's in college, like a young, uh, young man?

[29:57] Pauri Pandian: Um, I think being— I think it's going to be important for them to find people that they're willing to open up with on a personal level and once you find them, to utilize them as a tool. I think— I don't know if you would categorize yourself like this kind of growing up, but I certainly was not someone that was talking to a lot of people about my— about whatever issues were going on. Like, we compartmentalize, you know, I compartmentalized a lot of— a lot of information and like whatever was going on. It was just I'm going to just deal with it. And dealing with it is, for me at that point, kind of growing up was just sort of like blocking it out and just focusing on the other stuff. And it was really only, I think, as I got older and then obviously started developing more friendships with women that I was able to, at that point, that was a safe space to be able to be emotional.

And then as I got more comfortable with that and more just less insecure, I was able to kind of find, find other men that I could confide in those same, those same things.

[31:16] Paul: I love it. And I think there's such an opportunity. It's not even the healthy masculinity. It's just having that deeper self-awareness that's going to attract people that actually want to follow you as a leader. So I appreciate you doing the work and I think there's so much opportunity for a lot of men to really step up and lead, whether it's in the business world or sports or anything.

[31:43] Pauri Pandian: Thank you. I think I was so impressed with just the, the amount of just what the response was like and how to hear, to hear these 18 to 22 year olds be able to say, I've never had this type of support space to express myself, and I'm so happy we're able to do this. Um, that's, that's so rewarding to hear that, because even, even in just sort of one day, we're able to sort of plant a seed. We're not going to solve the problems, but just planting those seeds and encouraging these, encouraging these young men to start that self-exploration that you're talking about is— and that self-awareness is, is huge. That's like, that, that in itself is just a huge, huge step. Because I sort of see it as providing resources and planting a lot of information and then letting them kind of run with it.

[32:37] Paul: Right. I think it's just creating more models, right? We default so much to this prototypical leader and it's not reality. In reality, there are hundreds of different types of leaders and it's really about creating more opportunities for more people to step up. So I love it.

[32:57] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, absolutely. Even in sort of a different context, it sort of makes me think about— have you read the book Quiet by Susan Cain?

[33:06] Paul: Yeah, that book is incredible. It made me realize I was an introvert.

[33:13] Pauri Pandian: It was interesting because it was my brother-in-law who is a fellow Sloan grad and in the consulting world who recommended it. I think it's really particularly— it can be really great for young men as well. And, I recommend the book all the time because you have these college-age men who some are naturally introverted, most are not great communicators. And, the book just sort of shows how we need that diversity of thought and perspective to really function optimally in whatever whether it's the sports world, whether it's the business world, whatever industry it is, we need that diversity of thought.

I think in general, just, I was sort of very lucky in a lot of ways in that my family was reasonably well off growing up. My dad's a physician. And, but they, both of my parents grew up without without a ton of money and with a pretty decent-sized family back in India. And growing up, we used to go back to India almost every summer up until I was probably 14, 15. And so, going there in the summer, there's so much poverty around you that I think we sort of escaped some of the issues of entitlement that that could have otherwise come into place. And I think my parents were really, um, it was really important to them that we experienced that, partly just to have the connections with our, with our family there, um, but also to, but also just to see what that, that we are lucky.

And, and so that sort of, I think, was a huge That made a big impact on just my— when I say we, I'm talking about my sister and me. We, I think it sort of just colored the way we look at the world. And, you know, I am very lucky and I got lucky being born to the parents that I was born to. And so I think in the day-to-day, just being able to show appreciation for just the little things and knowing that I don't have a ton to a ton to worry about in that, like, I have a stable job, I love what I do, and that's like, you know, we can, we can have a part of a different conversation, probably a different part of this conversation is we're gonna be around that. But I love what I do, I have a stable job, I'm, you know, I can cover my rent.

I, um, so I think just being aware of that is really, is really important, um, and I think in general, people, I feel like I'm surrounded by people who are great teammates. And that's one of the cool things working in athletic departments is that everyone generally gets involved with that because they had a really great experience as a student athlete. And so they're great teammates to me. And so it makes it easy. It's that culture that's kind of built into the structure of that type of environment.

[37:03] Paul: How do you think about a job versus a sense of purpose?

[37:09] Pauri Pandian: I think they're linked. And I think when I think of purpose, there's obviously a little— that applies to different facets of life. But I think when I'm looking at my job and I sort of am adapting this line that I'm taking from a coworker of mine, but he said it really well. I think part of my job is to build teams that win and like I care about winning and I want to win conference titles and be nationally ranked and build All-Americans. But with my job, my sense of purpose is in developing people and developing them, my players, into well-rounded individuals who are going to go be great contributors to society. And that drives me.

Wins and losses enough, that doesn't drive me. I just don't care enough about that because The values that I teach them, that's what's going to carry through for them for the rest of their life. And, you know, people are on teams for the rest of their lives. They just aren't called that, right? It's called the company you work for and your family and whatever other organizations you're a part of, but you need those same values and those tools to be successful in those areas.

[38:23] Paul: And when did that clear sense of purpose emerge for you?

[38:27] Pauri Pandian: Probably, I think, I think it really started to come through working at Brandeis in that I think Ben, the head coach, was— he's about 5 years, 5 or 6 years older than me. And so he was a great resource and he modeled that for me. So much of what I learned, I just learned being around him and just seeing how much he cared about his players and how invested he he is in developing them and then seeing how that translates not just to on-court success but off-court success. And I think it's sort of tied into just coming into my own as a coach and as a person. I think a lot of this stuff, so much of success comes in certain ways, comes back to personal insecurity. So it's like when you trust yourself, yourself, that puts you in the space to be more assertive and more trusting in what you're doing or what you're trying to do.

And I, I don't have all the answers. I'm a way better coach than I was 5 years ago, and I'm— I'll hopefully be a much better coach in 5 years than I am today.

[39:42] Paul: Yeah. What are some of the things there that you've, uh, changed your mind on coaching-wise over the years?

[39:48] Pauri Pandian: I think just focusing a lot more on the the emotional side of things. That's, that's really the biggest thing is just where we're in a— where I think it's crystallized to me how much development needs to happen for these 18 to 22-year-olds in, in terms of developing their emotional intelligence. And it was something that didn't happen to me, I think, in a particularly systematic way. I think I sort kind of figured it out in a bit, in a bit more of a haphazard route. And, and then sort of, well, was interested in it and sort of self-educated myself on it. But I think I have this opportunity to, to be a bit more systematic with it, uh, and give them these tools.

And I think for these young people, just teaching them— I think teaching them how to struggle and how to embrace adversity is, is so important for them because I think one of the, I think one of the big changes I'm, I'm sort of seeing is just how involved parents are with these kids because I start getting to know them, you know, when they're in high school, typically when they're like juniors in high school and they're going through the recruiting process and just they need to learn how to be able to function on their own and struggle on their own and kind of figure things out on their own.

[41:12] Paul: Who's somebody that's inspired you or changed your mind in how you think about leadership, coaching, or sports over the years?

[41:19] Pauri Pandian: Wow. I think most coaches do this. I think we see inspiration, we see pieces of inspiration from a lot of different people. And so I think in the coaching world, I've drawn a lot on Bill Belichick. And just sort of how prepared he is and how much of an emphasis there is on that piece of the puzzle. And by that same token, I think looking at someone like Greg Popovich or Steve Kerr, who are similarly focused on that preparation, but are also sort of willing to speak their mind in a way that Belichick isn't.

And that's, you know, maybe it's a little taboo criticizing Belichick in the Boston area, but I mean—

[42:14] Paul: 5 Super Bowls.

[42:16] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, I mean, the results speak for that. Yeah, for sure. The results speak for themselves. And like, listen, he's a Wesleyan alum. Like, you know, I got a lot of love for him in a lot of different ways.

[42:25] Paul: Well, I think you can almost judge a coach by how his like ex-players speak about him, right?

[42:31] Pauri Pandian: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, on the— I mean, it's also outside of the coaching world. I think in part for me it's also, you know, people like, I don't know, Mindy Kaling and Hasan Minhaj and like these, these people of color, whether they're, they're South Asian, who are kind of following different paths. Like, I just— people don't probably pick, you know, a reasonably well-educated Indian guy to go into coaching and I love what I do, but I think I was sort of fortunate in being able to sort of see different people, see people in media doing different things that they're, that they're, that they love, that they're passionate about and they love doing.

[43:21] Paul: One final thing. I'd love to get your thoughts on this question. What can people either working in teams, companies with people learn or implement around coaching, helping other people be successful, what would you recommend?

[43:39] Pauri Pandian: A lot of things, but I think the two, the two that I would focus on are developing emotional intelligence and, and being consistent with what you're doing. I think in general, people learn at their own pace and I can't I can tweak my— tweak what I'm doing. I can do different drills. I can try to say slightly different things. But the reality is that I need to be consistent with my message and just trust that people are invested, that my players are invested, and they're gonna— they care about what they're doing and they're trying as hard as they can. And if that's— if that's the case, they're gonna figure it out when they figure it out.

And I think I've had players who I've had players who have— who are super, really, really easy to coach, and you just, you tell them to do something and they just kind of do it. They figure it out. There's no fear, etc. And then other players who, you know, I remember a guy who kind of— everything finally clicked with him in literally the last weekend of competition of his senior year of being on a college tennis team, and So it's just being, being consistent and then just recognizing the value in developing the emotional side of their players.

[45:04] Paul: I love it. Well, thank you for joining today. I wish you the best of luck in your upcoming seasons, and thanks for your insights.

[45:13] Pauri Pandian: Well, I'm excited to— I'm excited to have been on here and And I think I want you to know this and I want your listeners to know this. Don't edit this out. But I think what you're doing is phenomenal and it's inspiring because I think it's so challenging for people, particularly coming out of the corporate world, to decide to leave that in sort of the traditional method and to kind of just trust that there are— there is a different path, and there are a lot of different paths to just happiness for everyone. And while you, you know, you have to be thoughtful about how you do it, and you can't just do it overnight, you got to think through and do a little bit of planning. I think everyone can be— everyone can be happy with doing what they're doing, and everyone should be able to and should have that opportunity. So you got to do a little planning, but I think it's doable.

And I applaud you for taking this initiative and kind of taking this career path and sort of changing gears the way that you've done this past year.