Ali Abdaal on Identity, Prestige, Quitting Medicine | The Pathless Path Podcast

[01:34] Paul: Today I'm talking with Ali Abdaal, who introduces himself as a doctor and YouTuber. Personally, I'd introduce you as somebody who's generous, insatiably curious, and really pushing the frontier of what it means to be a creator online while also doing a side gig as a doctor. And last year you took a sabbatical from being a doctor to explore what this whole creator economy, creating online is all about. And I want to dive into all of that with you today. So to start, I went back and I watched an earlier video of your YouTube content and you introduce yourself as a junior doctor. Now you introduce yourself as a doctor and a YouTuber.

How does that feel?

[02:33] Ali Abdaal: It feels, hmm, it feels, it feels a bit strange. So the junior doctor thing, so I'm, I'm still technically a junior doctor. A junior doctor in the UK is anyone who is not yet a fully fully trained and qualified consultant. So basically anyone, any doctor under the age of about 33, 34 is a junior doctor. It's just like no one else in the world understands that term junior doctor and they think, oh, you're still a medical student, that sort of stuff. So I've dropped the junior from the title and I now just go by being a doctor.

But that also feels a bit weird because when I introduce myself online as being a doctor, then it conjures up like a different image to the one I actually have in my head. In my head, the image is I'm a junior doctor, I don't know anything, I've only been doing it for 2 years, please don't come to me with medical questions because I'm a junior doctor. When you say doctor, it just sounds, sounds a bit more like serious, and I've long felt a little bit strange about that.

And yeah, the YouTuber parts— I remember when I first started YouTube, I, I even wrote my Instagram bio said junior YouTuber or wannabe YouTuber, because I thought I had to, like, kind of prefix that with, like, "Hey, I'm not a real YouTuber yet." And I guess somewhere along the way I morphed into just being like, "Yeah, I'm a YouTuber." The way I like to phrase it, I think, sort of taking a leaf out of your playbook, is if someone asks me, "What do you do?" I kind of make it into a joke, but, "Oh, I just make videos on the internet." rather than I'm a YouTuber, because YouTuber also has lots of baggage associated with it. So I don't know, it's, it's, it's weird, this combination of doctor-YouTuber identity where I feel a little bit uncomfortable with both labels.

[04:18] Paul: Yeah, it's— we crave these identities, right? And in some ways it would be just so much easier if you could just say, oh, I'm a doctor, right? And then people stop asking you questions.

[04:31] Ali Abdaal: It would be, yeah. I think I quite like the questions. Like, yeah, when you, when you say you're a doctor, the next question, oh, what do you specialize in? Like, I've had that conversation a zillion times. Whereas a YouTuber, it's like, oh wow, that's interesting. Um, tell me more.

It's a more— it often leads to a more, a more interesting conversation where it then goes down the entrepreneurial route when you're a YouTuber. Whereas I think because everyone kind of knows what a doctor does, it will stay in that lane of specialty and what do you like about it? And oh, what's the craziest story you've had? That, that kind of vibe.

[05:05] Paul: Talk to me about some of the early conversations you had with doctors. Uh, I've read a bit of your story. You've shared it. You've been working on a book you're writing and you talked about several years ago, probably 5 or 6 years ago now, you started talking to doctors and found that most of them were not very happy. What motivated you to want to ask those questions?

[05:30] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, so basically since, since my first year of med school, which would have been like 2012 at this damn long time ago, anytime I become friends with a doctor, if I'm on placement with them or anything, I like to ask the question that if you won the lottery, would you still do medicine for fun? And I started asking that question because as I got into— as I read like The 4-Hour Workweek and got into the entrepreneur stuff, I sort of had this sort of these two parts within me. Number one, the entrepreneur side, and number two, the doctor side. And the entrepreneur side had been exploring since I was like 12, 13. And like when I was in school, I was doing my homework just so I could then get, get that out of the way so that I could tinker with websites and stuff online. But I think when it came to choosing a career, it was a choice.

Do I do computer science and go down this coding kind of route, or do I go medicine and go down the doctor kind of route? And I just didn't really have an understanding of what kind of jobs were available out there. And so, within me, the thing I had in my head was, I'll do a doctor, I'll be a doctor to kind of— because it'll be fun, and then I'll keep the tech stuff going on the side, because then maybe I can do some kind of medical startup or whatever. So, those two sides are still within me to this day, of like the doctor, the traditional career, versus like the entrepreneur doing something a bit more creative.

And so I was always curious that these people who've worked so long to get to this point that I— on this path that I'm now on, what would they think about their lives if they had theoretically had the option of working away by winning the lottery or by running a successful startup? Would they still do medicine for fun? And I found that half of them said, I would leave immediately, and the other half said, I would go part-time. There's not been a single person in the last, like, 9 years of asking this who said, yeah, I would still continue to work as a doctor full-time. Which I just thought was kind of interesting.

[07:17] Paul: So yeah, that's— yeah. And when you're searching for that information and everyone's basically telling you that you don't want to go all out after this path, did that kind of tell you, okay, these experiments suddenly are elevated in importance in needing to explore them?

[07:39] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, definitely. It really cemented my fit. My mental model at the time was I need to make enough money on the side so that I can do medicine for fun and legitimately do medicine for fun rather than needing it to pay the bills. And I didn't quite have the concept of like, hey, I could work part-time or anything like that. I just knew that, okay, a tech thingy on the side, medicine for fun. And I was looking at my university yearbook from 2015, and one of the questions was like, what's your dream in life?

And it was like, I think I wrote something like, to make money from a tech startup while being a plastic surgeon on the side. And so I saw that the other day, I was like, oh, okay, interesting. It's turned out a bit differently than that, but the broad sentiment was tick the money box outside of medicine and then do medicine for fun.

[08:28] Paul: Where'd you get that idea though? I mean, I've read 4-Hour Workweek and 4-Hour Workweek is basically like, do something on the internet. So you can automate that and optimize that and then do other things on the side. Certainly. I don't think there's anything in there about do an in-person job, like being a doctor.

[08:47] Ali Abdaal: Yeah.

[08:48] Paul: Were there role models? Were there, I don't know, where'd it come from?

[08:55] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, that's a good question. I think growing up, it was like, you know, my mom is a sort of first-generation immigrant from like Pakistan. And so like, you know, the immigrant hustle mentality of get a good job, go to a good university, or the other way around, and then you'll be happy. That model. So, I was firmly sold that model. And then, when I discovered the entrepreneur stuff, it was like my life was 100% of the traditional model, and then it was being slowly encroached on by the entrepreneur model of, "Hey, I can make money on the internet." And then, "The 4-Hour Workweek" was like the final, be like, "Oh my God, I can really make money on the internet." And that wasn't enough to undo 20 years about bringing about the traditional model.

But I think that's where those two warring factions came from. And I remember when I read Zero to One by Peter Thiel and he talked about how— I think I read it when I was like 16 or 17. He talked about how a lot of innovation happens when you're sort of really specialized in something and then you see like an adjacent thing that you can like step into. And I read that as being, oh great, I can be really specialized in medicine and then I can do the tech stuff which will unlock the adjacent adjacent strands for me to step into. And I even, even then I sort of knew that, okay, that requires me to be super specialized in medicine because if I'm just a medical student or just a junior doctor and I don't know anything about anything, then all I'm going to be targeting is the low-hanging fruit of like, I don't know, helping doctors book extra shifts or, you know, the basic stuff.

Whereas if you're super specialized, you can then invent cool things that only you have, you have an appreciation for because you're super specialized. So that was kind of what was going through my mind when I was kind of going into med school initially, those two different paths.

[10:34] Paul: That's fascinating. It's interesting how just like one concept from a book can shift, uh, someone's life. I was reading somebody else, I think Sasha Chapin, who was writing about how Tim Ferriss is basically responsible for a weird shift in his life and writing a book. Um, I mean, I read The 4-Hour Workweek too. It seems like everybody I meet has read 4-Hour Workweek and said, oh wow, there is a different way to live life. But at the same time, a lot of people go through what you did in terms of you're almost creating this like secret identity on the side and letting it blossom.

And it seems like you did that through a number of experiments. I think I went through a similar thing prior for like 5 or 6 years working full time. I did all these like secret experiments. I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell anyone I was thinking about leaving. I was really scared and terrified.

I've read about— you've done 6Med, you helped people build websites early on. Do you remember like the earliest experiment, or was it just tinkering around with video games and all that when you were younger?

[11:44] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, the earliest experiment was— this was when I was 11 years old and I was in secondary school, which is sort of our middle school. So, I'd gotten into this new school and I made all these new friends. And me and a group of my friends, we wanted to create this thing called the UIA, the United Intelligence Agency. Because at the time, I was really drinking the Kool-Aid of— there was two series of books. There was the Alex Rider series and the Cherub series, where the model is that it's about these kids who get trained to be like secret agents. And there's this secret agency of like, because kids can infiltrate places that adults can't go.

And so that was like, oh my God, coolest thing ever. So we decided to form this, you know, real life United Intelligence Agency. And therefore the first project for the UIA was the UIA Academy, which was going to be an online forum, like a forum where we would teach skills like lockpicking and karate and hacking and all of the skills that an 11-year-old secret agent needs in the world. And that was my first website project that me and my friends did when we were like 11 and 12.

[12:49] Paul: This sounds like The Umbrella Academy. Have you seen that?

[12:53] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I started watching that. Yeah, if only it turned out that way.

[12:57] Paul: But so it seems like almost being like a trickster, uh, you've done magic in the past. There's like this playful, uh, side. What— how does that come through in what you're doing and what you're creating?

[13:12] Ali Abdaal: That's interesting. I never would have thought of myself as a trickster. I think Growing up, I very much had the identity of being the kid who got really good grades, and that was what my entire identity was focused around.

[13:23] Paul: Well, that's a good cover story.

[13:25] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, yeah, true. For the secret identity of being like, you know what, I just really want to make money on the internet. I think, um, when I, when I started dabbling in magic, there was a, a conversation I had with my school headmaster, I think when I was 16. We'd just gotten our, uh, exam results, and this was our GCSEs, which were like pretty big exams. And I'd done really well in those. And so he invited me over to his office.

I went with my mum and he said, hey, so what do you want to do? And I said that I want to be a doctor. And we had a bit of a conversation about that. And then at the end of this, at that conversation, he said to me that, look, I need to give you some like harsh feedback right now. And, you know, don't take this the wrong way. No one's going to— no one else is going to tell you this.

But he said that the way I came across, it was that I really wasn't passionate about medicine. And in a way that I sounded like I was a bit of a robot. The way that I talked about it. And he pointed out that in talking about this dream you have of being a doctor, you've not smiled even a single time. That seems a little bit strange. And so in my mind, the problem there wasn't that I wasn't passionate about medicine.

I think the problem there was that I was just too much of a nerd and not particularly charismatic or enthusiastic about anything, really, uh, especially kind of talking to this authority figure. So at that point, I was like, okay, cool, if I want to get into medicine, I need to show myself as more being a more charismatic, enthusiastic sort of dude. Therefore, I'm going to start asking questions in class and start like volunteering for these random things. And then when I saw like a magic show, Penn and Teller Fool Us, on TV, I was like, oh my God, I can become a magician and that's really freaking cool. But then I can also— that will help me be more confident and charismatic and stuff, which will help me get into med school. So that was the sort of model there.

It was a goal-oriented behavior because A, magic is sick, and B, to make myself more confident.

[15:02] Paul: There's also a weird thing there, I think. I mean, adults saying that to somebody, you couldn't possibly actually know what you're getting into for any sort of career. And something like being a doctor, especially, you're tracked so early that it's, that it's almost crazy that anyone would be that confident about knowing they'd enjoy medicine or law or whatever the heck they're going to get into.

[15:26] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, definitely. And in, in the UK in particular, because we go into university straight after school, so So you become a medical student at 18, and therefore you have to decide to become a medical student at like 15 or 16 to get all the exams and experience and stuff. And so at the age of 16, you're setting— signing yourself up for a lifetime, a very specific life path with zero idea of what it's actually going to involve. And you have maybe one week of work experience in a hospital where you'll see maybe one or two surgeries and think, oh, this is cool. But obviously it's not actually going to prepare you for what it's actually like.

[15:58] Paul: Well, not to mention you're 16 and you have no idea what you're doing in life.

[16:03] Ali Abdaal: Exactly.

[16:04] Paul: Like, yeah, that's wild. So now on the other side of this, are you interested in medicine now? Like, did you— how did you find that joy for it?

[16:17] Ali Abdaal: Um, yeah, so I think weirdly, like, throughout med school, I was more interested in medicine than most people that I knew. Like, I actually enjoyed it. And I think I enjoyed it because I wasn't really thinking about, I'm going to be— I'm day to day going to be being a doctor full-time. I enjoyed it because it was like, like I knew that I was going to do something else on the side and medicine was going to be fun. And when— because I had that mindset shift of like, medicine is going to be fun, I was like, okay, cool, let's like actually enjoy this. And not— and crucially, like, not take it too seriously, but treat it sincerely rather than seriously.

Whereas a lot of my other friends took it very seriously and would end up, ended up getting burnt out and like stressed out with the exams and everything. So I think what I enjoy about it, it's actually mostly the social vibe. I just love the banter with the co-workers. It's really fun hanging out in a doctor's office. It's really fun going to lunch at the canteen with the other junior doctors. Like, that's by far the best part.

And very occasionally it's nice to think, oh yeah, I guess I did make a difference in someone's life today. The problem with the date, with the, with the make a difference thing is that I could never quite get over the counterfactual that, like, if I wasn't in that position, someone else would have done it instead. And so the only— I remember the circumstances in which I remember feeling the most fulfilled was, let's say it's a night shift and someone, a woman, has come in with, like, bleeding and was worried she's having a miscarriage. And I can pull in a favor to get her an ultrasound scan, like, overnight. That felt really good because it was like, oh, okay, I'm actually going above and beyond to do something that is technically against the rules of the system, but I'm doing something of my own bat to make her feel better.

Those moments happened very, very rarely, but those really stuck out as being like, yeah, this feels really good.

[18:02] Paul: Yeah. So, so you went along that path, you started working as a junior doctor, you're training. When did it start bubbling up in your head that, okay, maybe I take a year off? It sounds like that was always in the back of your head, but when did you decide, okay, maybe I need to really think about this, take a step away?

[18:21] Ali Abdaal: Yeah. So the nice thing about medicine, and I, I feel like this doesn't apply in a lot of careers, is that after 2 years of working, there is a very, very natural break where at that point a lot of people take years out to travel around and explore and find themselves and things and decide ultimately what specialty they want to go into. Because for the first 2 years, you're sort of doing a little bit of everything because you haven't specialized yet. And so I knew basically from day one of med school that, right, I'm definitely taking some time out 8 years from now when that career gap comes in. So it was 6 years of med school non-stop, then 2 years of being a junior doctor non-stop, and that gap just so happened to be for me in August 2020, which was when my sabbatical started.

And I was intending to travel the world and stuff, but then the whole pandemic happened and I ended up being a full-time YouTuber, much to my mom's dismay.

[19:11] Paul: Uh, talk to me about that. What does that mean, to your mom's dismay?

[19:17] Ali Abdaal: My mom has quite an old-school kind of attitude that medicine and full-time medicine is like a good thing to do. Yeah, part of it is like she, she has no issue with all the, with the stuff that I'm doing on the side, but she feels that my life would be better if I was a doctor as my main gig and a YouTuber as my side gig. Um, and her theory is that like 'Yeah, this YouTube thing is all well and good, but you know, when you're young, that's when you should do your actual training so that you're actually legit as a doctor when you're fully qualified. And then, you know, do all this YouTube stuff kind of alongside.' Her theory is that when you're an actual doctor, when you may be 35 and you're a consultant, then you're kind of the boss and you can take time out and you can work part-time if you want.

But there's no real point in working part-time when you're a junior doctor because then you're doing the grunt work and it's not fun. And I know that she's got my best interest at heart at this because of this. And she's, for example, got friends from her med school like 30 years ago who decided to do the business hustle and set up their own like businesses and stuff and ended up regretting it further down the line because the businesses didn't succeed. And the more that the things— the thing that she sees is that, oh, those people who I was in med school with who did everything on time they moved to America, they did their exams. Now they're living in big houses with swimming pools. Whereas my mom took 6 years out to live in Africa and stalled her training.

And I think she sort of feels— I hope she's not watching this— I think she feels as if her life and our lives could have been better had she done things on time and stuck to the traditional route. So with that environment, I can completely see where she's coming from, that, oh my God, this is the writing on the wall. Ali's trying to do this business thing. He really needs to knuckle down and focus on the medicine thing because that is a more surefire way to like happiness and success and stuff than trying to do some harebrained YouTube thing which has got a shelf life.

[21:10] Paul: Yeah, yeah, I think there's wisdom to it, right? I think, um, there's, there's like, there's almost like a wisdom, but it doesn't match the world we're living in now, right? The, the wisdom made sense when everyone was kind of marching along a similar beat And I think it would almost be nice if we had a little bit more of that structure. Like, you can be working on stuff for years and then something blows up, right? Maybe you feel this with your YouTube channel. And there's no real way to like know where you're fitting in and like the pace of society, where your friends are going.

And like, you can become disconnected from the flow of like your friends as doctors and the path they're on. How have you, like, how do you think about that? Like, especially as you've earned money, like, you've kind of solved some of the financial problems probably in your head, right? And then now you, now you have to grapple with these damn hard human problems of meaning, identity, who you are.

[22:17] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, that's literally what's been going through my mind for the last kind of 9 months since I've been on the sabbatical, that this whole— basically, since I read The 4-Hour Workweek at 17 or 18, I've been chasing this dream of financial independence and being able to tick that box, "Okay, cool. Now, I've got the money thing sorted." And before, it was always a case of, "I just need to sort the money thing out and then I'll worry about everything else a bit later. As long as I can sort the money thing and then it's fun along the way." And it was fun along the way. Now that I've sold them, I've ticked the money box, it's like, "Okay." What the hell do I actually want to do? And now the questions in my head are like, do I want to go back into medicine? Do I want to retain the identity of being a doctor?

Do I really want to be a full-time YouTuber? That feels a bit weird. Do I want to become a writer? Is the reason I want to become a writer with like a published, traditionally published book because all like, because I care about like traditional measures of prestige? To what extent is this like my kind of family upbringing telling me that traditional measures of prestige like fancy degrees from fancy universities and stuff are Those are important. Yeah, I don't know.

This is why I love reading your stuff because it helps me be like, oh my God, I'm not the only one thinking about this.

[23:27] Paul: Yeah. And I think in terms of like the timelines too, I haven't— I've kind of solved my money problem in the sense that like I'm very confident I can do stuff I enjoy to keep making money, which is a special kind of like, it feels freaking amazing. And I'm not even making that much money. But it's like, well, I would do all this stuff I'm doing until I'm— I don't really think of retirement. But then you're not aiming at anything anymore, right? I don't have this retirement in the distance and you're kind of lost.

And I mean, this is what I'm writing about as well, trying to navigate. You're kind of in like this goo of like no man's land, like Your elders are like, what the hell are you doing? Your peers are like, this is amazing, but you're like ahead of us and like doing different stuff. And how do you relate to that? So I want to read a quote you said. You said, but do I really want to become that guy who leaves medicine where there's a shortage of doctors during a global pandemic to become an influencer making videos on the internet?

Where's your head on that now? Tamer told me to push you on this.

[24:50] Ali Abdaal: Oh, interesting. Um, where is my head on this? Partly I wrote that in a way, uh, sort of— that's slightly more melodramatic than my actual stance. Yeah, I think my actual stance is a lot less So, I'm quite utilitarian in my view of the world, and me leaving medicine in the middle of a pandemic is not a big deal to me because there are other doctors that could do just as good, if not a better job, of me. And that, like, the counterfactual thing of me not being a doctor does not change the world in the slightest. Like, no one cares if I'm not a doctor.

So, yeah, I actually don't care about leaving medicine in the middle of a pandemic because I think I objectively have more of an impact in a different way when I'm making videos, silly videos on the internet. So, I kind of wrote that as a sort of rough first draft introduction to my book as just an exploration of what do I actually feel about this. And in a way, by writing it down and really trying to feel like, do I actually care? I realized, no, I don't actually care, which was an interesting self-knowledge.

[25:59] Paul: Well, it kind of puts you in a powerful position because you're not attached to the doctor identity, right? Which means you can actually go into it and really go after, okay, what are the things that make my life better? What are the things that help bring meaning for me? Where can I make a difference or move around the edges and apply some of my skills? Does that resonate?

[26:23] Ali Abdaal: I wish that were true. I think I am attached to the doctor identity, but in a different way. So I'm not attached to the identity as a case of, hey, I get to make a difference. Like, I know I'm really not making any difference at all as a doctor. The reason I'm attached to the doctor identity is because of the status and the prestige and my perceived fear— my fear that if I'm not a doctor and quote, just a YouTuber, that that is not good enough and it's not like legit enough. And the reason people are following me is because I'm a doctor who does stuff on the side.

And if I was just a dude who does stuff on the side, like a productivity guru or something, like, who cares about that? That's just boring. Everyone's done that. So that's my— like, obviously I would never say this in like a medicine interview, but that is why I want to retain the identity of being a doctor, because this fear of losing out on my freedom and everything, and everything I built creative-wise, because it feels like it's tied to the doctor thing.

[27:20] Paul: So you record a video, it says, I left, I quit being a doctor, and then you're hitting publish. How's that gonna feel?

[27:33] Ali Abdaal: Oh, I can, I can see myself clickbaity titling that video where in reality it's a case of like, I made a video called like My Last Day as a Doctor. It did really well, um, and a few people in the comments were like, don't worry guys, he's not actually leaving, he's just taking a sabbatical. But you know, I, it would feel pretty bad to and suddenly to announce that I'm never going to be a doctor again unless I think I was doing something— if I was doing like something medtech, then that would feel reasonable. I don't know, like, where are these assumptions coming from? Like, who actually cares?

[28:11] Paul: Yeah, why are you doing— why are you doing medtech?

[28:15] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I don't know, because it feels like I know doctors who have left medicine to do medical tech startups, and they, in my mind, oh, those guys are legit because they're doing something medical. They're like I don't— like, it's legit. Whereas if I knew someone who was a doctor and left it to become, like, I don't know, an Instagram model or something, I would probably think, hmm, interesting, not what I would have chosen. Yeah, something about— I think internally I have this real tie to traditional metrics of prestige. And being a YouTuber, being an— if it was someone, I've left medicine to become a bestselling author, writing about like experiences, even writing about anything at all, I'd be like, okay, that's fair play. I think it's my attachment to traditional metrics of prestige.

[29:02] Paul: Yeah, I mean, is it your attachment or is it like how others in your life will perceive that? Hmm. I mean, I know for me, like, I can get 50 notes of praise And then my mom will say, are you going to get a real job? And then I'm like, right back at square one. I'm like, oh, shit.

[29:28] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I sometimes I do sometimes ask myself this question and sort of what I'm about to say is going to sound really weird, but I mean, I mean it in a sort of hypothetical stoicism kind of, kind of concept. I often wonder if I'm making life decisions, I think, if my mom were dead, would that change my decision? And I was thinking like, hmm, and it does. It might not necessarily change it from like 0 to 1 or 1 to 2, but it does shift the equation. And that makes me think, damn, maybe I am like overly attached to what my mom thinks of my career options. Then I think, oh my god, I shouldn't be the sort of person who cares what their mom thinks about their career options.

Like, what the hell is wrong with me? So maybe, maybe there's something there.

[30:21] Paul: Well, and this is actually one of the hidden things I've discovered, is people write these articles like, these people have all this money, why don't they just quit their job? They could afford to quit. It's always like, fire people who are like, check out the math. Um, I've talked to probably a couple hundred people about their relationship to work now, and there's one question that seems to get the heart of things, which is like, would the people in your life love you less if you did this? And that really gets to the heart of something, and it's so real. And I mean, there's wisdom caught up with that, right?

You shouldn't just go do whatever the hell you please at all parts of your life, and there are paths that make sense. But also, I feel like we're on that— when the edge of, like, career paths really being blown up, and the smart thing to do is really to kind of embrace the chaos. So it's all these weird tensions people are battling with.

[31:27] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, that's really interesting. Will the people in my life love me less? I think if I were to ask myself that question, I think, like, The correct answer is no, my mom and grandma and my family obviously wouldn't love me less because they love me as a human being and a family, but you know, all of that kind of stuff. But still, they probably would think less of me for leaving medicine to become a full-time YouTuber if that was what was going to happen. Often my mom, like, the other—

[32:00] Paul: it's often not even the It's not even that there's like less love. It's more that there's kind of the support, active or enthusiastic support kind of eases back. Right. And that to somebody that's taking a different path can feel awful.

[32:20] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, that's interesting. I think that, that, that definitely plays a part whereby Yeah, if I'm doing something medical, because my mom's a doctor as well, there is active enthusiastic support there. If it's something that's on the internet where she doesn't really have an understanding or anything about it, there is a cursory level of support there. But I sometimes think it is sort of like my brother, for example, studied maths at university, so has nothing to do with medicine and is doing a tech startup. Yeah, I think my mum is far more supportive of that because he's not a doctor, whereas if he had been a doctor and had quit medicine to do it, to do the same tech startup, right, it would be a different equation because it's like, to my mum, she understands medicine and she understands like, why are you throwing this away?

Whereas that— so I, I sometimes think in, in that context as well.

[33:14] Paul: Well, I think there's like a medical family thing. I, I know so many people that are in medicine that their parents were in medicine and then were pushed into that path from such an early age. And it is kind of a legacy thing because, I mean, doctor— being a doctor is both prestigious and something that is pretty beneficial. And if you compare it to other prestigious stuff, like being an investment banker is prestigious but probably of less certain, uh, just less, um, impact on the world in terms compared to a doctor. So I think those things are real.

[33:53] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, there's definitely something there. I remember pre-pandemic, I was at a wedding with these 3 random guys on my table, and they were all from Pakistan and from a specific city where each of their families owned a factory producing medical instruments. Surprising that you would get 3 of these people in one place, but they somehow met each other and they all became friends. 3 different factories, different companies producing medical instruments, and all of them were being groomed to take over their family business. And they were all having this issue of, "My family really wants me to take over the family business, but I'm not sure if that's what I really want." I was just like, "Wow, that's so interesting." And in any kind of sphere where you've got that family legacy thing going on, there's going to be some level of pressure.

[34:41] Paul: Awesome. So yeah, I mean, these things are hard. We're not going to solve this on the podcast, but I think it's fascinating because many people are dealing with this. And I mean, I want to pivot from this to productivity, and you may not see the link, but I think one of the interesting things with like being productive online is that your output is not directly related to your input oftentimes, right? So you're kind of like detaching the work from the output or the rewards. Like you're making YouTube videos in a similar way, maybe a little more polished than you were a couple years ago, but like the output and the rewards have changed dramatically compared to like being in medicine.

You kind of have a wage, you know what you're making. I mean, I always notice doctors are obsessed with calculating their wage based on hours and then proving, proving that they're underpaid compared to everyone. So, how do you think about productivity when those things are detached and how do those two worlds compare?

[35:52] Ali Abdaal: I think for me, my model for productivity doesn't really involve the, like, how much this thing is rewarded. It's more based on what are my personal outputs. So, for example, I always think in terms of I just need to make 2 videos a week, which is an output that's not really changed for the last 3 years. And how well those videos do and how much revenue they make and stuff, which has increased exponentially over time, doesn't really factor into my productivity equation. It factors into the equation of, you know, this is what my business is and etc., but not particularly in productivity. And I guess the way that people often ask, "How are you so productive?

How do you do so much stuff?" I've been thinking a lot about this when it comes to writing my book, which is about that very topic. I think the sort of hidden secret, if there is one, is that if we can learn to enjoy the journey, then productivity takes care of itself. And so, that's the thing that I've really been exploring, that why is it that none of this has ever really felt like work? Hmm, okay, that's interesting. It's because it feels like fun. I'm here at a coworking space in the middle of a Sunday afternoon and my housemate was saying, "Why are you working today?" I was thinking, "I'm not working today.

I'm going to have a chat with Paul and I'm going to do some brainstorming for videos on a whiteboard. I guess that counts as work." It's weird. So, yeah, it's that cliché of, if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life, which often feels a bit like— there's a lot of truth to that.

[37:25] Paul: Yeah, well, we just pair work with this We pair work with suffering and— Yes.

[37:30] Ali Abdaal: Oh my God. That's literally, that's been the phrase in my mind for the last few weeks. Why is it that we look at work as being suffering?

[37:36] Paul: Well, I think part of it's religious. I mean, the Catholic, in the Bible, work is toil and thou shall suffer for their food, right? And then people are talking about you shall suffer to give food to your community. And then the Protestant work ethic said, okay, let's make this meaningful too. So now we've muddied up all these ideas of work that are hundreds of years old, but are a terrible fit for jobs where you have to go in and do a certain amount of work that other people are controlling. And then at the same time, you have creative work where you're actually designing what you actually want to be doing, which is totally different.

We need a new name for this, but it's not really like work. Basically, work has been stolen by organizations with jobs.

[38:28] Ali Abdaal: Yes. Oh man, that's so good. We need a new word for this sort of work because it does feel weird to describe this conversation as work, even though it sort of is.

[38:42] Paul: Yeah, and I do the same thing. I have no distinction in what days I work. I freaking love writing. And I'll do that any day of the week. And when I'm around people, people will be like, oh, you're working on Sunday. You're working so hard.

I thought you were all about like enjoying your life more. And like, because people pair this idea of like the point of life is to work such that you can like take a break from work. Right?

[39:10] Ali Abdaal: Yeah.

[39:10] Paul: Whereas for me, I'm actually trying to design around liking work. As opposed to other people, and I think people get into this trap with even the creator economy or startups, is like they're actually designing with the assumption that work has to suck, right? So I have to suffer, work really hard for several years, and then have an exit, and then I get the money, and then I can start actually living my life. And the thing I noticed with you is like, shit, Ali really actually loves this shit. He's having a ton of fun.

[39:42] Ali Abdaal: It's so great.

[39:43] Paul: I remember I watched one of your Final Cut videos on Skillshare, and you're having the time of your life teaching these skills. And I think that part is invisible to a lot of people because a lot of people just see doing stuff must be bad, must have to suffer. You can't possibly enjoy all this because this is how you make money.

[40:06] Ali Abdaal: So I've been doing a fair bit of free writing and things for the book. The thesis of the book has changed since the last time we spoke. I think the draft that you commented on, I was trying to do some sort of thing of productivity as a combination of meaning and efficiency and stuff. Now it's a lot more simple. Now the core message is that the true secret to productivity is to learn to enjoy the journey. And so, the whole book is basically about, okay, what are the different ways in which we can make the things that we're doing more fun.

And I hesitate to use the word work because I don't want it to be about work. Work has so much baggage. For someone who wants to learn to play the guitar, that sort of— why is that person not doing it? Or for the sort of person who wants to learn to code, work has too many job connotations to it. But that's— so, A, we're trying to find a way of just describing this in a way that doesn't use the word work. But also, the key question that I've been trying to answer is, okay, we all have these things that we say that we want to do, whether it's, I don't know, start a startup or learn to code or play the guitar, whatever.

But a lot of us don't do those things. And the people who ask me, Ali, how are you so productive, are in that position where they want to do A, B, C, D, E, and they're just not doing them. And I think there's like two approaches to this. And one approach— I'm trying to find a name for this, but provisionally I'm calling it the Muhammad Ali method because there's a quote from Muhammad Ali where he famously said something like, um, I suffered every day during training for 10 years and it was worth it to become a champion. And I think that that type of attitude, you know, the, the word grit conjuring up this image of like gritting your teeth and white-knuckling and suffering through the pain of work to get to a, a reward at the end of the line. I think that is the model that a lot of us follow when it comes to work or anything really.

Oh, you've just got to push through the pain. Whereas I feel like for me, the way that I've been approaching life for the last like 10 years, it's like, hey, work doesn't have to be suffering. 'If I find a way to make this fun, then I'm more likely to do it and I'm more likely to be successful.' And I don't really want to become an Olympic athlete. Maybe, you know, to get gold medal, you have to make work suffering. But okay, screw that. That's not what I actually want.

I'd rather have a chill life where I enjoy what I'm doing and I have fun and I don't mind whatever I do on weekends because the weekend doesn't feel any different to a weekday. Does that— like, any thoughts on that, like, two-pronged approach?

[42:43] Paul: Well, I think So I think there could be a couple things there. I think Ali is probably telling the story that everyone expects to hear, right? Because it's a good story. And yeah, I guarantee you Ali loved the journey because you can't actually be that good unless you love the journey. I think maybe there are, I don't know, maybe there are 10% of people that can just brute force through things. But, and I noticed this, like, when people talk about taking a leap, I'm writing about, like, my journey of taking the leap now.

And as I started writing it, I realized, holy crap, when I quit my job, I was 99% of the way done, right? I had done experiments. I had met different people. I had tried these things that scared me. I had, like, gone through a crisis. I had all these things.

And then when I quit, it was just like, yeah, that's the last remaining thing. But now people ask me, okay, how did it feel to quit your job? Well, it didn't feel like anything at all because I don't really have a good story. I honestly can't even— I don't even know when I decided to do it. It just seemed to happen. And I think it's probably a similar thing With you, people are like, how do you do this?

And you're like, I don't know, like, I'm actually just like doing what I want to do.

[44:13] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, yeah. I remember when I was, I was driving back home from my life, from my last day of being a doctor, and I was thinking this should feel different than it does. And it really felt like nothing, um, because I'd been leading up to this point for the basically like the last 5 years, get to get to this point where I was like driving home from work and I was like, cool. I don't have to work from now on. But I think it didn't really change much in my life other than just the way I was spending 50 hours of my week. My mental state and general attitude was the same before quitting and after quitting.

So, I really think, yeah, I think as you say, 99% of the work was done before that final day, and then it was just like, "All right, cool, whatever." Yeah, and I think finding the work you want to do is the hard question.

[45:01] Paul: I ask people a question, what— basically a remix on your question. What would you do if money didn't matter and you couldn't tell anyone about it? Right.

[45:15] Ali Abdaal: That's interesting.

[45:16] Paul: So it takes away this, the status or perception elements. And I sense that in a weird way, you'd probably still make YouTube videos. Or at least videos or something like that. I don't know, would you?

[45:32] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, if I couldn't— like, if you said to me, do everything you're currently doing but hit delete instead of hit publish on the videos, yeah, I wouldn't do them. I think for me, the YouTube thing, so much of it is tied up in the feedback from others. But I— so a question I've been thinking about is, um, when in terms of figuring out what the hell to do with my life is 'What do I want written on my gravestone?' And whenever I think of that, I always land at some combination of, you know, 'good father,' 'good husband,' and 'inspirational teacher.' And if I think back, like, all of the most— a lot of the most meaningful moments in my life have been when I was teaching. And so I'd want to find a way of doing that.

And so when you ask that question about if you didn't have to worry about money and you couldn't tell anyone, my immediate thought went to I would be a writer, but I would publish under a pseudonym or anonymously or something. So, I can still have that thing of being a teacher, maybe like anonymous Twitter account or anonymous blog, anonymous author, without it being tied to me. Because that would feel really, really satisfying. But if I were to write and then throw it in the bin, that would feel not satisfying at all. So, I think that element of publication is a big part of what brings me satisfaction.

[46:45] Paul: Yeah, I think there's probably a loophole in that question, still being able to help people. Um, well, I think it's like, it doesn't matter that it's YouTube, that's the output. It sounds like the thing you would keep doing is like the making sense of ideas and trying to communicate and explain it to people and help people understand these things. And ultimately, like, I think you have similar motivations to me. Like, you want to desperately help people do the things they want to do. Like, I mean, for me, nothing excites me more than like seeing people actually do the things they want to do.

[47:20] Ali Abdaal: Oh, man. It's so funny you say that. So, like, literally yesterday, while we were in WeWork, me and 3 of my friends, we were— I was saying to them, like, "Guys, I need a mission statement. Everyone says you should have a mission statement." We've got 8 people in the team now, and we need company values and objectives and stuff. We spent like 4 hours trying to come up with a mission, like, "What do you actually want to do?" And part of me was like, "Oh, well, I mean, I want to have fun. I want to make money.

I want status and prestige." But you can't put that in a mission statement. And the thing that we came to was that we help people do more of what matters to them. After like 4 hours of deliberation, we help people do more of what matters to them. That was the mission statement. I was like, damn, that sounds so simple.

[47:56] Paul: I'm on board. There's this exercise you could try, which is— I tried this. It's you basically write down your purpose statement and you keep writing it down until you cry.

[48:10] Ali Abdaal: Okay.

[48:11] Paul: And I was like, not gonna work on me. And I did it, and it basically worked on me.

[48:19] Ali Abdaal: Really?

[48:20] Paul: I can— and this is like something I came up with. I just pulled it up again. So basically, Connect is a real friend to people that give— to give to people, to give them the courage to create, help simplify the world, to help people imagine new possibilities and continuously be more brave in discovering the people and things that matter. And I like, it was kind of scary, like just saying it so clearly. It's like, oh, I say all these other things to like impress people and convince people I'm doing the right thing. But like, man, this is really what I want to be doing.

[48:58] Ali Abdaal: How did you come up with that? Like, that sounds very like—

[49:00] Paul: That was somebody else's idea. Okay. So my first, my first line is help people bring more joy, reduce suffering. So it took me, I think it took me like 25 lines to get to that. But yeah, it's a cool exercise. You could try that.

You could try that live and shoot a video.

[49:23] Ali Abdaal: That's a good shout. That could work. Like film it. Yeah. Yeah. You're like reinvent values and stuff like worksheets have been, have been quite helpful in helping me try to What do I actually want to do?

I don't know. I think I always land on some combination of like teaching other people, inspiring other people, with the caveat that I want to be having fun and maybe making a bit of money doing it.

[49:47] Paul: Well, I think the thing I've struggled with is I've kind of landed on a similar thing, is like I want to create things, I want to teach people, I want to help people, I want to be useful, I want to love the people that matter in my life. And if you figure that out and you're not tied to some sort of hierarchy, like, you're not really like moving towards goals like other people are, right?

[50:09] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, that's it. Because you're basically— you and I are basically doing that like today, right? And so what's like the 20-year vision? Like, I don't know, just do the same thing.

[50:19] Paul: Exactly. Like, I can't— I have a hard time envisioning the future because I'm very happy with how things are today. I was actually in Mexico and I had this like perfect day with my wife where I did some of that. I was helping people. I had conversations with people. I did writing.

I cooked a meal with my wife and then we watched the sunset together. And I ride back and I had this weird feeling like, holy crap, like this is what you're supposed to want in retirement. Except I'm doing it now and like, there's no, there's never going to be a retirement for me. And there's kind of like a loss there. Like there was almost like a sad feeling, like there is no successful endpoint for me. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing.

Society is not going to morph to be like Paul's is the ideal default path, and nor do I want that. But that tension is definitely hard to navigate.

[51:17] Ali Abdaal: I feel like we need a new parable of the Mexican fisherman. Parable of the Mexican sunset. Yeah, I woke up, I had a Zoom call with someone, recorded a podcast, did some writing, hung out with my wife, cooked a meal, and watched the sunset together. That's a pretty solid— but Paul, you could become the next Tim Ferriss. You could like write a New York Times bestseller. You could do the conference circuit, be like, and then what?

[51:44] Paul: Yeah, it's weird. I think I actually did your course, and one of my realizations was that like Making YouTube videos was like a fun, interesting challenge that like now I have better skills to help other people with. But I don't know, that's not my game. I was like, oh, that was cool. I'll play around with it, but it's not anything I want to do like full time.

[52:11] Ali Abdaal: So how— okay, I'm curious. How did you get to the point? So If I imagine me in your situation where I've had that perfect day of a bit of helping people, a bit of making YouTube video, a bit of writing, a bit of hanging out with the wife, a bit of cooking, sunset, blah, blah, blah, all that good vibes all around, I would be thinking— and that's the equivalent of my life these days minus the wife part and minus the cooking part. But I'm still thinking that, okay, that's all well and good and I love life right now, but the next level, for me is to write this really good book, hit the New York Times bestseller list, become the next sort of Tim Ferriss-esque type figure, because that seems cool and it'd be fun, and then I can kind of impact more people. Do you have that drive to kind of be bigger than you currently are like I do, or how do you feel about that?

[53:04] Paul: I think yes, but in a detached kind of way. Like, I probably go through like a similar like stoic exercise. Like if I could like burn all my like digital properties down, how would I feel? And it's like, probably be okay. And so I try to go through that mental exercise. That being said, like it's really cool to get more readers on my newsletter because that's the thing I like doing the most and like the responses of that.

But I think like you, that's like filling this teaching thing. But it's weird, right? Like, I'm writing to 4,000 people right now, which is crazy. There are writers that are super famous now but wrote to way less people in their lifetime. And it's weird. But I also know, like, okay, if I keep doing these things, I'll get more followers and I might make more money.

And then, like, I am married now. It would be nice if I had kids to, like, not be living out of one suitcase. And so it's a constant tension, right? But yeah.

[54:15] Ali Abdaal: Okay. I mean, that's very reassuring. Yeah. You have those thoughts as well because I kind of see you as sort of like sage mode. You've sort of decided follower count doesn't matter and none of this money doesn't matter and you're just kind of chilling.

[54:28] Paul: Well, I really do try to optimize for fun, right? So if I sense myself drifting into, okay, I'm taking this serious and I'm caring what people thinking, or I'm trying to play some formula, I'm always trying to like zag against the formula to do it in my own way. And that, that's what keeps things fun. But I mean, part of my secret is like also going through a 2-year health crisis. And then when I was went solo and moved abroad, I didn't— I barely made money for an entire year and basically just like nervously walked around feeling super financially insecure. And then I was like, ah, I have friends, people help me.

And I was like, all right, I'm going to move on from worrying about that. Okay. But yeah, that makes sense. And then like my online course did start making more money a year and a half, 2 years ago. And that gave me a lot more confidence that like, okay, I'm going to be okay. But yeah, it's never perfect, but yeah.

[55:32] Ali Abdaal: Okay, that's cool.

[55:34] Paul: Well, I think the thing I realized is like money doesn't really solve any of your problems.

[55:39] Ali Abdaal: It solves the money problems, but right.

[55:42] Paul: Well, in some ways, like the faster you solve the money problem, either really grappling and staring face to face with financial insecurity or making enough so that you're like, okay, now I don't have to worry, then you can get on to the real problems of like, okay, what kind of life do I want to live?

[55:59] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so too. This is like, I get a lot of kind of young people asking me about this like entrepreneurship stuff, but there's also a little bit of a pushback. Like there's like a zag from like a small minority, like often it's medical students who like really, really like medicine, be like, hey, why are you promoting Or they tend not to kind of direct it at me, but, you know, they might tweet something like, why are there all these people promoting the entrepreneur hustle life? I mean, why not just be content to be a doctor? Like, there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm like, yes, there's nothing wrong with that, but ask doctors 10 years older than you whether they wish they had that pathway. Or so, I don't know, I think that being able to solve the money thing preferably while having fun along the way, I think is a reasonable short-term goal for young-ish people.

[56:51] Paul: Yeah, well, I've been talking to people too, and like, I was talking to my friend, he's like 23, he's in a big tech job, and he's got all this, he's got all this like itch to like create and do something. He's like, man, this is pointless what I'm doing at my big company. And I was like, look, like it's not quit your job and do everything or work in big tech. It's dabble on the side, maybe create something you're proud of and realize like, oh, I can actually own this. And then that actually lightens your connection to your job. My favorite people are the people with full-time jobs who are experimenting in ways, write something for fun on the side and know that like, okay, the job is a job and it's, it's lighter than like having to be the most important thing to me.

but I can also get to do the things I actually want to do in my life.

[57:44] Ali Abdaal: Yeah, yeah, I can see that. That's kind of where I'd like to be, where probably not full-time job, but like part-time traditional job, going into work, maybe working as a doctor 2 days a week, and then doing the other stuff, maybe teaching medical students and like writing a book and like doing YouTube videos. That feels like a good portfolio career. That isn't so much around the full-time creator or whatever words people use to describe this.

[58:13] Paul: Awesome. Well, I'm excited to check in in 5 years and see, see how this story plays out. I wanted to pull up one thing I found in researching for this conversation. So a tweet from you, August 27th, 2013. And it says, when I'm rich, I want to hire someone whose only job will be to peel pomegranates for me.

[58:40] Ali Abdaal: I remember that. I still have that sentiment.

[58:45] Paul: What's your progress on this?

[58:47] Ali Abdaal: The progress on this is I've decided that once pandemic stops, I actually do want to— and I'm going to take this question seriously. Assuming I want to settle down in one place, I want to get a house that is big enough to have a YouTube studio and have a housekeeper who will keep it clean and peel pomegranates for me. And so, that's on the radar, but the thing that's stopping that from happening is that I don't want to settle down into a single location just yet. So, yeah, progress being made, but it's like, cool, it's now no longer about not having the money to have that, and it's now more about when I choose to settle down permanently, I will hire someone whose job it is to peel pomegranates for me.

[59:30] Paul: Awesome. You heard it here first. YouTube house and pomegranate peeler coming in the future. It was fantastic talking with you today. I appreciate the vulnerability and just carving this path. I think you're, you're an inspiration for me because I look at you as somebody that is really enjoying what they're doing.

So those are always the people I pay attention to. So Appreciate you sharing and putting yourself out there.

[59:56] Ali Abdaal: Oh, thank you. Likewise. I look up to you a lot as well with all the writing and things like, oh, he's figured this out. And thank you for being my therapist for this conversation.