#128 Crafting A Life You Love - Amy Tangerine (Pathless Path Podcast)

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today, I am excited to be talking to Amy Tangerine. She is a creator I was lucky enough to spend some time with earlier this year. Got to know her, her kids, her husband, beautiful family, and really inspired me too, just as a parent and as somebody who has figured out how to channel the act of creation into her life, into something really powerful. She created the book Craft a Life You Love, which is a really cool book.

It's like this hands-on workbook plus all these like, feel like you're more precise and synthesized than me in saying similar things I wrote about in my book, but basically summed up by this line you repeat many times: creation is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Love that so much. Welcome to the conversation and podcast, Amy.

[02:07] Amy Tangerine: Thanks, Paul, for having me.

[02:09] Paul: The question I start out with, and I'm excited to hear more about your story, is what are the stories and scripts you grew up with that sort of told you this is what I'm supposed to be doing as an adult?

[02:23] Amy Tangerine: Fortunately, even though I grew up with immigrant parents, they were born in India, I'm Chinese, they raised me in a way where they truly believed I could do anything that I wanted, anything that I put my heart and my mind to. And I think that's different than a lot of Asian upbringings. Even though they had high expectations for me, they didn't pigeonhole me into thinking that I had to be an engineer, a doctor, any of those typical maybe storylines that other Asian families experience. And while they did set a bar and standard that was high, I also believed that the most important thing was to be happy and to be kind. And, you know, it's nice to be able to make money and support your family as well, obviously. But they're— they really were so supportive in nurturing the kind of human that I think I have evolved into.

[03:33] Paul: Is that due to them being sort of immigrants to India. I'd love to hear more about like how that's influenced their path and how that was passed down.

[03:45] Amy Tangerine: I'm not really sure. I've been looking at a lot of, I've been doing a little bit of my own sort of in-depth diving into ancestral trauma. And I know that sounds really strange, but my dad passed away in September and he was my favorite human. And I truly believe that there are wounds that he wasn't responsible for carrying, which may have been passed on to me, which I hope not to pass on to my children in a negative way. Now, I think that we all have, I obviously, our own struggles and personal, uh, shifts that we need to make for whatever reason, but I believe that their upbringing in India really shaped who they were. My dad ended up, he only told me a few years ago that he was actually given away as a baby.

So he was the 6th or 7th child and he was born in India and he was given away to a family who couldn't have kids. And it was really kind of shocking because, you know, that is a trauma. He was given away as a baby. His mom had to take a train to go deliver him to another family. And unfortunately, the mom who he knew growing up until about the age of either 5 or 6, it's a little unclear, she ended up passing away. And so the father he knew as his father found another woman and decided to give my dad back to his original family.

So here he is at 5 or 6 years old, he's given back to his original family. A little brother has already been born. So he always felt like the black sheep of the family. And when he met my mom and they immigrated to the States in 1970, it was really important for them both to pursue the American dream, right? And so maybe part of their experience in life was that they had the opportunities of moving to this country and fulfilling what they thought of as the dream, which he was an engineer for his whole life. And my mom had various jobs, but one of the main things they wanted for me was to obviously be happy.

But also, I remember he used to subscribe to Entrepreneur magazine and they talked about owning their own business. And my mom said, oh gosh, if we could have anything, it'd be amazing to have a little restaurant and all of these things, right? Because that's what they wanted to pursue, but they never did because there was a rational side of them saying, I have to have a job with benefits and the 401(k) and all that and not really venture out on their own. It was almost too scary for them, especially because they lived in a suburb of Chicago where I grew up that was a little bit more affluent, although I feel like we were the poorest people in this affluent suburb, if that makes sense, because of the school. Being really good and it was public. That's the reason we moved to that neighborhood.

[06:58] Paul: That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, doing your own thing was a lot harder. It's easier to make money doing things online like we're doing today than it was like starting a restaurant is really hard. Most of them fail. But you wrote in your book, you said your dad also built furniture and that also inspired you.

[07:18] Amy Tangerine: Absolutely. My parents were both very creative and crafty. My mom continues to be creative. To this day. And I think it's really important to show the, I guess, different sides of who you are as a parent, right? Because my dad, he loved being a dad, first of all.

And it really showed in the fact that on the weekends we spent so much time doing either things that I loved or that he loved. And part of his passions were to do things with his hands because he was a mechanical engineer. He knew how machines worked and loved to tinker around. He actually— my uncle on my mom's side, my mom's brother, tells me a story of how when they were younger, he actually— my dad built a foldable bicycle, but he never knew how to approach getting a patent on it or anything because he just wanted to build this thing that he could fold up, take along with him, and then store somewhere easily, and then unfold it and ride home. And so he built that. And it was so interesting because nowadays, obviously, if you were to invent something that wasn't made before, you would hopefully do the things that were necessary to make it so that it could be available to more people.

But he just wanted to do it for himself, and he just built this thing without any desire to say, oh no, I need to market this, I need to patented, I need to do all these things. He just needed it and wanted it and built it.

[08:54] Paul: One thing that jumped out, uh, a story, you growing up, you're 5 years old and you hadn't spoken English really, but were sort of, uh, consuming it, um, through Sesame Street. And like, I'd love to hear just more about that. I mean, you're 5 years old, so not sure how much memory you have of this, but do you think, like, growing up with different languages and being thrown into different environments, you sort of had this approach of, okay, I can figure things out?

[09:26] Amy Tangerine: Maybe. I don't really recall the fact that I didn't understand English going into kindergarten, but my parents very much knew that, right? We spoke Chinese at home. I never had babysitters or nannies. I didn't go to preschool. So I was raised by my grandparents who actually spoke this dialect of Chinese called Hakka.

It's not even Mandarin. It's barely spoken. And so I go to school and my parents are completely floored with the fact that, oh my goodness, our child may not know how to communicate. What's going to happen? They're a little scared, but they don't let on to it. They said I just sort of started off as a shy child, right?

At least that's what the kindergartner said, or the teachers said about me. And then slowly I just adapted. So maybe part of it was— and they actually credit Sesame Street for teaching me English because that's how I picked it up, right? I was watching TV growing up in the early '80s, and that's what was on most of the time. And my grandparents never limited my screen time. They just, if I wanted to watch TV, I watched TV.

If I wanted to go to the park, we went to the park. So it wasn't something that I was necessarily aware of, but I think maybe it had something to do with how adaptable I was able to be later on. Unfortunately, my dad also wanted me to be Americanized, so he didn't require me to continue with my Chinese at home. After about the age of 10, I said to my family that I only wanted to speak English at home, and they both sort of said, okay, unless I was talking to my grandparents, of course.

[11:14] Paul: Yeah, it's, uh, it seems like there's a lot of regret, um, especially— I mean, my, my grandmother spoke fluent French. Nobody in my family speaks French. It's like now it's much more like, yo, you have to teach your kids. Like, also, I have enough, like, friends who grew up with their parents spoke a foreign language, and they're like, how did you not teach me this? Like, it's so hard now, right? Um, so that's like definitely our plan, to speak Chinese at home, and like hopefully I can keep up, uh, with our daughter.

[11:45] Amy Tangerine: Wonderful! I love that idea. It's such— it's so important. Our son is actually in a Spanish immersion school, and it goes through 5th grade where it's, you know, immersion. So it's really amazing to have that, especially living in Southern California.

[12:01] Paul: Definitely. Talk to me about— so graduating college, you were pretty into the fashion industry. How do you think your conception of like how you were thinking about your path after college at that time?

[12:16] Amy Tangerine: I don't know that I had much of a plan other than the fact that I knew that I didn't really want to be a fashion designer, which is kind of interesting because I ended up transferring from Georgia Tech to a small school to do fashion design and marketing. And then I was a stylist, a freelance stylist afterwards, and I had all these part-time jobs. And I think what was such a gift at that time was that through freelancing, I was able to experience so many different parts of different industries. I was a receptionist at a modeling agency, I was a hostess at a restaurant. I ended up being a contributing editor to a magazine after being an intern there. I got to experience so many different areas of a lifestyle that I wanted to embody without even realizing it, right?

Because I was making these connections without it feeling like networking. It was just me party, you know, part of my job was to talk to people and to be around them during events or making sure that everything was all set for private rooms at the restaurant, whatever the case may be. And while I was answering phones at the modeling agency, a photographer who kept coming in said, hey, do you want to try fashion styling? And I said, sure. And we, we just went from there. He sort of told me and explained what a fashion stylist did and we put together this first photo shoot with elite models and we filmed it at a restaurant that I worked at.

And it ended up that, you know, a couple months later I was sent down to Miami to work for a magazine shoot. And there were just things that happened along the way that led me to believe that I was doing the right thing even though I had no idea what it was. It just felt good at the time.

[14:15] Paul: It was sort of the sense of doing different things and just how your life was structured more than like you're aiming at a certain like type of job or type of, uh, role.

[14:26] Amy Tangerine: Yes, exactly. I think the goal too was maybe in my mind to be able to make money doing what I love and experience it in a way that delighted others. Because producing photo shoots, because I was freelancing, producing photo shoots was great, but it also wasn't something I could do every day.

[14:48] Paul: When did the seeds of doubt about like staying on that sort of path indefinitely start to creep in?

[14:55] Amy Tangerine: I don't know that honestly at that time, I'm not sure I had that much doubt because I feel as though my time during the day when I didn't have work necessarily. I was always busy doing something. I was always busy making something. And I somehow kept pretty busy as a freelancer because if we weren't working on print shoots, then we were doing our own projects. So whether we were getting paid or not, we were working together, coming up with these concepts, executing them. And as a stylist, you have to shop, you have to pick up the clothes, you have to style them, and then you have to return them.

So I, I kept myself pretty busy. And then at night I was— I ended up being cocktail waitress too. And I don't know that there was a lot of time for self-doubt, to be honest with you. Self-doubt didn't really creep into my life until probably my late 20s.

[15:56] Paul: Yeah, and that's when your one-third life crisis started.

[16:01] Amy Tangerine: Yes, yes, I missed the quarter-life crisis, right, that a lot of people—

[16:06] Paul: I think I had the same thing. I had a one-third life crisis at age 32. Yeah, well, unless we lived to 120, then maybe it's—

[16:14] Amy Tangerine: well, hey, you know what, you never know. I mean, I think for me, 90 years old is a good goal, and if I live that long in a healthy, happy way, I'm, I'm fine. So yeah, right before turning 30, for some reason No other previous birthdays had really affected me that much in a negative fashion, and that one really hit hard. I was ending a relationship when I was— I don't know, I guess I had just turned 29 and was ending a relationship of 4 years. My business was shifting gears. I was moving more towards scrapbooking and paper crafting and trying to find myself.

I felt a little bit lost. I even went to Thailand on a retreat that was called Find Yourself. And I really was in this exploratory phase because that's about the time that Tim Ferriss's book came out. I believe The 4-Hour Workweek had just come out.

[17:12] Paul: Oh wow. '07.

[17:13] Amy Tangerine: And was that right? Yeah. So maybe right around that time because I didn't meet JC until 2009. So is that right? Yes, sorry, I'm doing the math right now. I turned 30 in '08, so that makes sense.

And I was having this realization that life was moving really fast. And though I had this successful business where we sold to 250 boutiques, you know, we made a lot of goals and markers that I wanted to hit, I wasn't completely happy or content. I was actually kind of miserable because though I love designing and creating and making, I was only spending about 5% of my time doing that. And the other 95% of the time was doing the small business stuff, the, you know, managing people. I had 10 people on my team. I had all these reps around the world.

And really there was just so much, and I felt like there was too much pressure put on a 20-something-year-old where I almost felt as though I didn't really get to fully experience the fun and carefree youthfulness of it. Even though now that I look back, I really did. At the time, I just didn't want so much responsibility. I didn't want other people's lives depending on my decisions every day.

[18:41] Paul: Do you think you feared just losing touch with that creative side too?

[18:46] Amy Tangerine: Absolutely. There was a part of me that was getting a little bit, I don't know if I was jaded, but you know, the fashion industry is a lot of pacing and a lot of keeping up and going ahead of the trend. And once you get the next big thing, you're thinking of the next big deal. And it just kept on adding up to a point where even though I had reached this goal of mine that I would consider success, the marker kept moving and shifting in a way that didn't feel true to who I was. So yes, I didn't have time to get in touch with my creativity during those 5 years of really hustling, right? Truly hustling and not doing it with heart.

[19:34] Paul: Yeah. And for the, for the listeners, um, What specifically were you selling? And I'd love to hear, like, what, what were some of those milestones? Were they like sales numbers? And then like, how did you actually process those?

[19:47] Amy Tangerine: Yeah. So I think that in my head I calculated those goals as markers that really were around numbers, but also how I felt. And I was doing embroidered t-shirts. Hand-embroidered t-shirts that started off just, you know, with a few people stitching them for me. And then every year we basically doubled or quadrupled. So just to give you an idea, I think it was 2006.

We shipped—

[20:16] Paul: and that's so hard for a retail store with like inventory and stuff.

[20:21] Amy Tangerine: Yeah. So we were actually wholesale. So we sold our t-shirts to retailers. And at that time there weren't that many online stores. And Fred Siegel was really big. Kitson was a really big store in LA.

I sold— we sold to Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's. But just to give you an idea, out of my 3-story loft in Santa Monica, it was a live-work loft, we ended up shipping 30,000 hand-stitched t-shirts one year. So hand embroidered, right? And some of them were actually machine embroidered, but they had to be hand-cut. So it was this reverse appliqué technique that I had learned and really enjoyed doing, but I found myself making the sample and then I would pass it on to other people. And it was just so rewarding in so many ways.

And I am so grateful to have had all these talented people working with me who know— knew how to do this handicraft art that is sort of lost, right? And to find people in LA who really took so much care. And the most that some people could make was only 12 shirts in a day, okay? So just to give you an idea, we paid very well. And so the t-shirts had to be a premium price, and then the boutiques would sell them. And at that time, they had no problem selling $75, $80 t-shirts at all.

And because they were selling jeans that were $200, $300, So the— Wow. The market was there. We were there at a really good time, but I think that the burnout was real and it was unsustainable in a way where we had sales reps throughout the country who were doing very well too. I was selling to department stores. We sold to 250 stores around the world, and it just got to a point where I couldn't come up with more ideas without branching away from doing the hand stitching and doing the hand cut elements that I loved so much.

[22:30] Paul: Yeah, that, that's so amazing. And it's really fascinating to read about how once you stepped away from that or hit pause, a lot of things opened up. Great. So this happened to me too. I feel like I'm on like a parallel timeline behind you. It's like I left my job.

I sort of like went to zero, created space in my life, and then I meet my eventual spouse and like we're now like having a kid and like these things sort of just like open up. It seems so obvious now, but I think if I had kept grasping to my past path, I don't think these things would have opened up. So What, what was it like leaning into that space and sort of hitting pause on things that make sense to keep doing, but you can't really explain why you have to do it?

[23:22] Amy Tangerine: So scary. And probably the time that I fought with my mom the most, right? Because why wouldn't you take orders from stores when they're trying to give you money and saying that they have budget and they want you to, give them, you know, the 300 shirts that they usually order. Why wouldn't you take that money? Well, a few things also happened while I was at these trade shows. I noticed that the numbers were going down a little bit.

We weren't getting as many orders. There weren't as many new stores coming by. And I just had this sense of, gosh, you know, I'm not really enjoying this process any longer. How long can I really sustain this? And they say that 80% of your business comes from 20% of your accounts. So I really wanted to focus on those 20%.

And at that time they were yoga studios, there were spas, there were hotel stores. And so shifting gears, I got a new sales rep in LA who focused on those and it was great. And it— I only stepped out a little bit and I don't think I hit pause necessarily. I, extricated myself but didn't let it known— be known to the public. And at the same time, I tried to keep that 20% of my client base happy while also really finding what would be fulfilling to me on a personal level, not as a brand, just as a person, right? Because I had felt all this pressure.

I remember talking to somebody and I literally I lived 10 blocks from the ocean at the time, and I saw the beach 2 times that year. And that is so sad to me because I could have taken every opportunity to just walk the dogs to the beach every morning, right? But I didn't in my mind have that time because I only thought that I had to work. So now obviously I have a different perspective on all of it. But hopefully that kind of wisdom that you and I have gained can be shed on somebody else that realizes, you know, life needs to be more dynamic, right? We need to find out what is in alignment with our own values and then head in that direction.

Even though our course may be kind of wavy or we might go in circles sometimes, it's okay. That's actually better than feeling like you wasted X amount of years of your life.

[25:56] Paul: Yeah. What, what were some of the things that you started doing in that time period? Did you start leaning more into writing and scrapbooking and other things like that?

[26:06] Amy Tangerine: Totally. I fell in love with scrapbooking. I loved just taking the time to make something with my hands. Printed— I printed photos. I would just have these little journals that I kept. And that's something that I used to do a lot when I was younger, but I sort of gave it up with work and my own business and running my own business.

So I told myself that I would take a 6-month sabbatical, and I didn't know how that was going to happen, right? But fortunately, I had saved enough money. My mom was helping me run the business, and I took the time to travel a little bit because I also had the chance to move her in with me instead of paying her rent and also my rent. So I just moved her with me to help take care of the dogs. And my theory was that if I had to pay $2,000 in therapy and travel, it was worth it to have her living in my same house instead of spending that money on her rent. And so I justified it that way and ended up going to Thailand.

I took a trip to China, and my grandfather on my dad's side, actually, he passed away when I was little, but he was being honored because of his relationship with— he helped bridge the relationship between India and China. And so they were honoring him at a few museums. In China, and my dad had never been, I had never been. So we took a trip in 2008, and it was just such a wonderful experience being able to share those important memories. And I'm sorry I didn't answer your question earlier about the milestones in my business. I feel like they are so far behind now.

And when I talk about them—

[28:01] Paul: Yeah, we don't need to spend time on those.

[28:05] Amy Tangerine: Yeah, I'm sorry. I just said—

[28:07] Paul: That says it all. I mean, that says it all. You're just like, whatever.

[28:12] Amy Tangerine: No, I just think that sometimes you have to go through those things that you think are going to matter so much, right? For example, Cindy Crawford showing up in my tank top in Glamour magazine was a milestone. I really am so, you know, awe-inspired by that. And I think it helped me gain a sense that the business was the right direction to go in because that was early on. And then there were other milestones that I hit too. But most of the time they were monetary.

And even when you hit, okay, I want my business to make $1 million, well, we hit that. And guess what? It didn't feel as good or fulfilling as I thought it would. And I had to take that opportunity to really take a moment to go within and say, what is going to be fulfilling for me? You know, what does it really matter? Because after you get to a certain point too, it's not like your profit margin grows that same exponential way, right?

You actually end up having to spend more to sustain. It does. So I would took that time and I tried to do a sabbatical, but then I ended up, you know, creating my next thing, which was through scrapbooking.

[29:29] Paul: Yeah, I'd love to— I wrote down this note to myself while I was reading your book, like scrapbooking as contemplation. Does that resonate with you? It seems like—

[29:40] Amy Tangerine: Oh, it so does. I have to tell you, it completely does because scrapbooking and memory keeping gives you an opportunity for reflection, right? You're pausing, let's say when you're taking the photos to remember. And I love that we took a photo together when we were in Portland. It was a selfie and it was just one silly photo, but there was so much feeling that I get from looking at that one photo, right? And having dinner together and spending some time really getting to know each other on a deeper level.

And then when you're actually scrapbooking with the supplies in front of you, you're almost reliving that memory. And then there's another opportunity to relive it while you are sharing it with others. And that whole time you're contemplating what it means to you.

[30:33] Paul: Yeah, it, and it seems like the uncreative paths, it seems that some, everyone needs some sort of mode they can drop into in which they can reflect on what they're actually doing because the weirdness of being on a path like this is that you have no idea where, where you are and where you're headed. And the reflection sort of like helps you figure out what you've actually done. Um, did you experience a similar thing in writing your book as well?

[30:59] Amy Tangerine: Absolutely.

[31:00] Paul: Yeah.

[31:00] Amy Tangerine: The process of writing my book was actually very healing and therapeutic because it was at a time where I probably didn't have set aside time to write a book, right? But I had come across so many people who wanted to hear my story and who could take nuggets of wisdom and learn from them as I was sharing it. And so I thought, okay, well, I should write a book, but there's already an author named Amy Tan, and, you know, who's going to be interested in my story and what is it going to be about? And I didn't know how to structure it, right? This is where those annoying little voices in your head get to you. And instead of just taking that first step of saying, hey, I'm just going to start writing and seeing where it goes, I got caught up in, well, I don't know how to do a book proposal, I don't know how to write an outline, I don't know how to do these things.

So I would just do journal entries and Being able to have a blog since 2007 really helped that writing practice become cemented as part of my daily ritual. And that helped, say, propel the need to just spend 15 to 30 minutes a day writing something. And those words add up, as you know, taking a book or taking those words and putting them into book also takes a long time. And the craziest, I guess, catalyst, not so crazy, but I didn't expect it. At the time that I was thinking about writing it, I found out I was pregnant with our second child. And so Jack was about 2 and a half or 3.

Yeah, I think he was 3. And I found out I was pregnant. We were delighted. And so I was like, oh, okay, I'm just gonna put the book on hold. I'm just gonna prepare for everything else. And we found out at, I think, the 8-week appointment that the baby had no heartbeat.

So that was a big rush of air just taken out of our sails. And we just completely felt like we were, or I should speak for myself, I felt as though I was very lost because it was so unexpected. I just didn't think because Jack wasn't planned and we had— I had such a good pregnancy with him. He was a healthy, wonderful baby. And then I just had no idea. So I was floored when the doctor said that.

But he also said sometimes nature knows better than we do. I remember thinking at the time, like, oh gosh, I always think that there should be a reason for everything. So I was trying to find the reasons. And I decided that the only way that I could fulfill the obligation to myself to feel worthy— and this is horrible— was that I needed another project. So I birthed a book instead of birthing a baby. And that's how I felt.

And I remember going through my journals at the time, really feeling like I wasn't worthy as as a mom because the miscarriage happened. And that obviously is not true. And I would tell everybody who's listening, if you're affected or you know somebody who's had a miscarriage and they're healing from it, and it's, it's so— I didn't realize it was so traumatic at the time. But then I continued on, and I actually had 4 miscarriages in 4 years before our surprise Juniper. I found out I was pregnant on April 1st, 2020. So it was a delight, and now she's 2 years old.

So the story does have a happy ending, and I think that it's— I'm sorry I didn't give a trigger warning for that, but I really believe that sometimes our darkest days can prove to deliver some bright, bright moments.

[35:08] Paul: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. And I think just going through pregnancy with my wife and I, like, we were both talking about how we wish more people would share things like this. Because once you start going through the process, you realize all these things are very common. It's just that people don't talk about them. And it's— it actually sort of makes sense that you channeled that energy into creation. Like, you'd have to fight me to take the right to create out of my life.

And I think when people experience this connect, it's sort of like, I have such a hard time describing this though. It's sort of this connected, deep, like, just like true state. Do you sense like there is that sort of force driving that too?

[36:01] Amy Tangerine: Well, you put it so well because you're absolutely right. I think it's a necessity. I think creation is a necessity. And the beginning part of my book, I have this permission slip, right? And if it's okay, I'm just going to read it.

[36:18] Paul: Yeah, I love that.

[36:19] Amy Tangerine: It says, this is your permission slip. It gives you a place to date and to write your name. The most important part of my day is the part where I take care of myself and feed my soul. I cannot be the best partner, the best employee, the best boss, the best parent, or the best friend if I am not at my best. Therefore, I have permission each and every day to pursue my craft in order to take loving care of myself and be my best self for the most important people in my life. And then there's a line to sign.

[36:51] Paul: I love this because I always say you don't need permission to do things. But now I can just direct them to your permission slip.

[36:59] Amy Tangerine: You know, I kind of have the same outlook as you do, but I realize that people need their own permission or validation or put whatever word on it that you would like to, right? I of course was worthy of being a mom and being a human even though I had had this miscarriage, right? But to prove to myself, I almost needed that permission to say, hey, I am going through something right now and I don't know how else to handle it besides just showing up the best that I can and just doing what needs to be done. And this is what I feel like needs to be done. And I wrote the book at a time where I kept doing everything else because that's just how I knew to function. And that actually helped, I think, with— it's interesting because I feel like people can use their work as a coping mechanism almost, right?

It was also the time where I realized that maybe I am too much of a workaholic. And so you have to channel your energies where they are deserving, and that's just what felt right to me.

[38:12] Paul: Yeah, you talk about this in the book as well about when you're nervous, that is probably a sign that you should try something, right? But it, it's, you sort of need some discernment around what kind of nervousness, because I think there's also the kind of like, maybe I would call it anxiety rather than nervousness, which is like, oh, I actually don't want to do this. And I'm being drawn towards that. How have you started to like filter what to actually focus on better?

[38:44] Amy Tangerine: Oh, I love that question. And I think that lately I have been really trying to listen to my intuition more and more and trust it because it has never let me down throughout the years. But I did have to come up with my own filter to figure out what the next step was and which direction I wanted to go. And that's as simple as something that I started years ago called the 3 Fs. It's freedom, fulfillment, and fun. And those are the filters that I run everything through now.

And it used to be that, let's say a job opportunity or a collaborative opportunity would come up, I would run it through those filters. As long as it fulfilled 2 out of the 3, I would say yes. But now it has to fulfill every single one, every single category. It has to give me creative freedom. Also financial, a little bit of financial freedom in just that respect, right? Let's say it's a collaboration, uh, and it has to fulfill me in a way that I feel is true to who I am and something that I can creatively show up for, for the client.

And then third, it has to be fun. I have to like who I'm working with. I have to like who I'm serving. I have to like who I am making this for.

[40:06] Paul: How do you measure creative freedom?

[40:09] Amy Tangerine: Whew. Usually— it's a very good question. I've never thought of how I measure it, but I think that a lot of times if I get excited about something and I present it to a client, for example, and they say, yes, we trust you, whatever colors you feel like using, Run with it, go for it, right? That feels like creative freedom to me. But also creative freedom comes with constraints built in because you can't have so many options or else you might feel stifled to create something. If somebody was like, oh yeah, here's your budget, you can make whatever you want, right?

And you need sort of parameters within what to create. So creative freedom. Yeah, I think that measurement has to be based on the individual. What would you say? How do you measure creative freedom?

You make it up as you go too, right? Had you not said yes to that opportunity and gone through the process, you— I also, maybe you feel the same way, used to operate at a place where I thought everybody saw things the same way I do. Especially when you have a discussion and you discuss these points, you would think that you wouldn't have to say, I don't want to make up any lies. I don't believe in stretching the truth of the capabilities of what, right? But that should go without saying. And not everybody has that viewpoint, unfortunately.

So I do believe that you have to try things if they feel good. And look, sometimes there's missteps, right? I have made plenty of mistakes in my life that I take as lessons. I take them as learnings, and hopefully I don't repeat them.

[43:37] Paul: Yeah. And I think it's we sort of overestimate how complete other people are. Like, other people have their own insecurities, which they're bringing to things. And creativity, when you are doing things creatively with people, that is a very vulnerable act, right? So if you've been creating for a long time, you're sort of comfortable with like, okay, yeah, this is supposed to feel weird and uncomfortable. But other people, I think, that is, that can lead them to like really grasp for control and things like that.

And that's often where like a lot of the challenges come as a creative person working with others.

[44:17] Amy Tangerine: I think expectations is a huge thing, and I had to really lower my expectations of my own abilities because it made me a control freak when I had my t-shirt line. It really did. I really felt that I was a control freak. I didn't like that about myself. I wasn't a perfectionist. I just wanted things done right and done a certain way, which happened to be my way.

And I realized that I didn't like the person who I was becoming. And it was so interesting because everybody said they loved working with me and then we still are in touch, right? But I remember feeling like, oh gosh, I shouldn't have been so hard on myself, which made me hard on them, right? Because it's just how it came out. But they don't see it that way. They almost see it as, gosh, we had this opportunity to do so many different things creatively.

You pushed us in such a healthy way. And I thought, gosh, really, I, I feel bad that I put so much pressure on you. And here you were, just a, you know, a part-time person working with me, and I expected you to be able to solve all these things when I really just had those expectations of myself and I felt like they would be able to handle it, if that makes sense.

[45:37] Paul: Yeah. How do you think about this kind of path now, um, with kids? I'd love to hear like how your mindset's changed. And basically I'm just trying to steal some advice.

[45:51] Amy Tangerine: The greatest gift that you can give your child is presence, right? Presence and truly being with them. Okay, because our need for doing can take over, but we really have to give ourselves that gift of being too. My therapist said a few years ago, you realize you are a human, human being, not a human doing. When's the last time you let yourself just be? And I sat there and I was actually kind of mad.

I was like, what do you mean just be? And this is also around the time when I realized that I was a control freak. And so I had to do a lot of practices to realize that, you know, really what would happen if you just allowed yourself to just be? And there was so much freedom there that I'm still seeking that kind of feeling every day, right? And just allowing yourself to be, because that's also— presence is the greatest gift that you can give to your child. But also, they need to know that you're a happy human being.

So you need to still do those things that make you happy too and find that harmony. Being a good parent is a practice every day. And I realize there's so much you can learn from them, and they are so wise. I have a very old soul in my son, and he is, gosh, such a great teacher. In fact, yesterday he said to me, you're crazy but mindful. And I was like, oh my gosh, I am, I am.

That's me. I'm totally crazy and I'm totally mindful. Thank you. You know, I started laughing so hard because it was also funny 'cause he rate— I said, on a scale of 1 to 10, how crazy am I? And he goes, I'm not going to answer that. I know better.

And this is a few weeks ago. And then I said, no, no, just tell me, you know, because I know I'm crazy. And he's like, 8. And I was like, okay, well, how crazy is your dad? And he's like, 2. And I was like, what?

Well, that's why we balance each other out, you know. Here I am, the optimist, thinking that that's a compliment. I really think that you will know in your heart all the things that that the answers will come and you'll misstep, but in small ways. And it's so interesting because I overthought so much and I still overthink. I tend to overthink. But what I think is so important about being a human is not just taking those flaws that you know you have, but really trying to be better.

Okay, so in my overthinking, I don't want to have so much doubt that I don't take action. And that's what I want him to realize, is that even if he's swirling in his mind about doing something, or let's say he has anxiety about something, or he's worried about something, you know, it's really easy for a parent to say like, oh, don't worry, don't worry, you're safe, you're, you're held, you're loved, you'll do great. But until the child builds up that confidence in themselves and is able to extract what they need to from their wisdom, I always just want him to trust himself, right? I want him to listen to his intuition and trust it and to not overthink and overworry because there's such a— it's such a waste of time. I think I was watching video by Martha Beck, and she was talking about worrying and how it's just a waste of time. Like, do not worry.

And I come from a long line of worrywarts. How am I supposed to shed that, right? It's part of who I am. I have to worry. But that's also a lie. I think that's a lie that we've told ourselves is that we have to worry.

We don't have to worry. We can trust. We can trust in our abilities, we can trust in our— I don't know if you want to say the universe, whatever you believe in spiritually or not. You can trust in the work that you're doing on yourself to hopefully lead you to where you need to go.

[50:07] Paul: Yeah, there's a line that says something like, the things we worry about are not the things we need to worry about, and the things we don't worry about are the ones we probably should be worrying a little more about. I just love that. It's so simple and sort of just makes sense.

[50:24] Amy Tangerine: You actually remind me of something that I read a few years ago that I try to tell myself. Besides the Serenity Prayer, which I like to say every day, I also like to remind myself that there are only really 3 things you have control over: the images you visualize, the thoughts you think, and the actions you take. And once you really grasp that, you're able to let go of so much that doesn't serve you. And hopefully I can give myself enough grace so that my child can learn from me, not in just what I say, but actually what I do and what I embody. That's my hope.

[51:08] Paul: I love that. Um, where can people learn more about what you're up to? Do you want to direct people to projects you're working on now? You have so much cool stuff. I feel like I want to dig into it. I'm sure Angie's going to as we have a little kiddo and start doing more crafts.

But where should people learn more about your story?

[51:30] Amy Tangerine: Yeah, so I'm amytangerine.com. I'm— I've got the book Craft a Life You Love. I have a new book for kids that just came out in March. Called Making Memories, and it's, uh, an opportunity, I think, for everybody, though it's targeted towards kids ages 8 and up. It's all about practicing mindfulness, learning to journal and scrapbook, and finding calm every day, which is something I think we could all use. And I'm on Instagram, I have a YouTube channel, and I am going to be redoing the studio, so we're getting ready for demo in a few months and I have to redo it, which is scary, but I am trying not to worry about the little things that I have no control over.

Like what happens after demo and they find that it's gonna cost a lot more than we think.

[52:26] Paul: Amazing. Well, that, that sounds fun, stressful, and exciting, uh, at the same time. I wish you the best of luck.

[52:33] Amy Tangerine: I'm so happy for you and your baby and I just And I'm so excited for this next chapter.

[52:40] Paul: Amazing. Thank you so much, Amy. I will link up and have a good day.

[52:46] Amy Tangerine: Thanks, Paul.