Gabi Macra's journey from the basketball court to the yoga mat

[01:43] Paul: Today I am talking with Gabi Makra about her journey from the basketball court to the corporate world and now carving her own path as a yoga therapist in a way that connects both the mind and body. She's the creator of Real People Do Yoga, which features real people, uh, sharing how yoga is part of their life and what it means to them. We're going to talk about her journey today. We're going to talk about many of the transitions she's made in her life And this is our second attempt at a podcast after our first live version audio did not work out, but excited about this second attempt and second conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Gabby.

[02:26] Gabi Macra: Thank you so much for having me, Paul.

[02:29] Paul: So I'd love to start with your journey for— with basketball. So you were a pretty successful basketball player in up to college. But would love to just start with how you were thinking about life. You were spending a lot of time as a basketball player. Your identity was kind of wrapped up in that role. How were you thinking about your life up until college and as you entered college?

And how did that shift when you faced some setbacks in your physical health?

[03:04] Gabi Macra: Yeah, no, really good question. It's funny going, back that way. I haven't thought about the basketball years in a long time, but yeah, very, very reflective. I started playing when I was quite young, and I love, love, love sports, and some sports were just too expensive, so basketball was almost like this default. But as soon as I started playing, I absolutely fell in love with it, and really quickly it just kind of took over. It became a summer thing, a winter thing, and everything, and knew quite early on that I wanted to play in college.

So to your question, I think very early on my identity was— a big part of it was wrapped up in that. And, you know, played right through university and wanted to play afterwards. There's a few options around the world to play professionally, one of them being Europe, which at the time was kind of more likely. And then in my third year, I tore my knee, so I tore my ACL. And that was the first time that really basketball became something that wasn't necessarily going to be an option after university. And that was definitely the first time I had to reevaluate sort of what it meant to me, what else I was going to do, and facing a real shift and not knowing what was coming.

[04:22] Paul: So up until that point, there was at least a small chance, maybe you weren't seriously considering it, but a small chance you might explore playing professionally. Did that injury really close close the door on that and force you to think about, okay, what am I actually doing after college now?

[04:40] Gabi Macra: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think that when I went into college knowing that a lot of girls at the time would leave university and go play over in Europe, that was definitely one of my goals. And when I tore my knee, it sort of firmly shut that down. And I was, you know, I was doing a degree that I didn't know what I would do with anyway, and that kind of just highlighted that. Portion or that aspect of what am I really going to do now because I don't even have this extra time to figure it out. Women don't play basketball professionally forever, so you eventually do something anyway, but it cut short the amount of time I would have to figure that out, which was really, really stressful at the time.

[05:22] Paul: Yeah, so what— take me back to that time. What were you going through? What were you thinking about? What were some of the options you were mulling over?

[05:32] Gabi Macra: So, at the time, I think I almost went into sort of that mode of kicking it down the road a little bit further and not knowing what I wanted to do. I had my sister's husband recommended applying to go teach English in Japan working for the government. And so, I snapped that up partly because I didn't know what else I wanted to do. It was a great opportunity to live somewhere else, to explore different things, and it just became sort of a new path that led to a lot of things actually, directly and indirectly. But it was almost an avoidance, yet a way to go do something really different, but not necessarily with my degree. So, it was not related to my degree at the time.

[06:16] Paul: Right. And I think some statistics on people graduating from university show that a shockingly small number of people actually work in what they went to school for. Uh, so it's almost this myth that like you need to know what you're doing at this age, but I'd love, I'd love to learn more about Japan and what you experienced there. So what was your mindset before you were going to Japan and what were some of the shifts that happened after arriving and, uh, living there for a while?

[06:51] Gabi Macra: Um, yeah, that's such a good question. The, the mindset going in was I mean, I didn't know what to expect, to be honest with you. The contract I went on was a 1-year contract. You could stay up to 3 years but choose to re-sign once a year. And I went in thinking, I'll go for a year, it'll be fun, it's a bit of extra time. And I got there and it just blew my mind.

I mean, it's such a different place, it's a different culture, the food, you know, everything is vastly different, the climate. Tick every box on what could possibly be different, and it was there. And to be honest, the first couple of weeks I absolutely had a panic attack. I cried a couple of times. I thought I wanted to go home. And then over time as I settled in, it's just learning so much and having my eyes opened and just learning to be just better at learning about new things, being comfortable in situations that are unfamiliar.

So that was a big learning curve for me.

[07:53] Paul: Were there any situations that helped ease that transition from being really homesick, struggling with that? Was it making a friend? Was it learning some of the language? Was it just time?

[08:07] Gabi Macra: It was really all of the above. So I had a really good friend I made who's also Canadian, and he'd been there before, and he was living near me, so we got to know each other through orientation, and he knew that And I told him, I was very open, I said, "I'm just absolutely panicking about this." And he came one evening, we went out for dinner and kind of talked me down a little bit. And he became one of my closest friends. I made a really good Japanese friend actually through him. And I started learning Japanese, you know, in earnest. I'd gone to the grocery store and bought milk, what I thought was milk, 3 times because it had a cow on the package.

Got home, opened it, used it, and went, "This is definitely not milk." So, after that experience, that was in week 1, I went, "That's it, I'm learning Japanese. Like, there's no other option here. I just need to learn the language to function." Do you know what you were drinking now? I have no idea. Absolutely no idea.

[09:05] Paul: That's a great story. So, going through that teaching, what did you get from just teaching people, especially in a different culture, different language?

[09:17] Gabi Macra: That bit was such an interesting experience, actually, and I learned so much about things that would actually help me later on in corporate life and other things as well. I had a real variety of teachers I was working with, for a start, and some of them really, really wanted— it was an assistant language teaching position, which is sort of typically what they do in the government system there if they bring English teachers in. And some teachers really embrace that and want to have you in the classroom and collaborate with you and make things work, and then some other teachers actually more from, I think, actually feeling like their English isn't good enough, not because they don't like you as a person. Like, there's so many different reasons, kind of avoid you. So it was like this black and white, very hot and cold relationship with different teachers, which was really fascinating.

I didn't understand it at first. And they also— one of the big cultural things over there is that if you have anything you want to speak to someone about, or like an issue you want to work out, you never speak to the person directly. Which I didn't know about Japanese culture. So you kind of always have a mediator, and I didn't know that, but the teacher that, you know, embraced using me and having me in the classroom kind of talked me through that and helped my relationship with the other teachers. So that— not even the teaching bit, but that whole— it's probably a bit about culture in that sense. I learned that.

And then on the teaching side, I think one of the biggest things I learned about teaching there was just how much I really enjoyed that part, and I never thought myself— of myself as a teacher. So that, for me, that was a little bit eye-opening that I enjoyed it and I was really good at it, and it kind of brought me alive in some ways.

[11:00] Paul: So when did you decide that, okay, this Japan journey was amazing, but it might be time to go back to Canada?

[11:12] Gabi Macra: So I hit the 3 years. I was about 6 months away from the end of the 3 years, and the maximum that they will have a teacher on the program when I was doing it was 3 years. You could switch into elementary schools and stay there and extend it, but I kind of thought, I don't want to stay here any longer. Japan was amazing. It brought me a lot of great things, but it's not somewhere that I could see myself living longer term. So at that point I started thinking about where to go, and actually Canada was on the list but not— I'd sort of figured out in the first year that I was there that I really didn't feel like I wanted to live where I grew up.

I missed my family and I wanted to sort of be able to see them more often, but at the same time I knew that that just wasn't the place for me to actually put some roots down. So it actually became another point of uncertainty because I was torn between where do I actually move to if I'm not drawn to go back home, essentially.

[12:12] Paul: Yeah. Do you, do you think reflecting back now you benefit from going through some of these periods of uncertainty now?

[12:20] Gabi Macra: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think they've, they've really set me up, especially for what's happening now and sort of in the past. And anytime I'm going through a change in my life, I think having been through some fairly big changes like that at a relatively early age is just helped me navigate them better.

[12:40] Paul: Yeah. So you just said you end up in London. That's right.

[12:44] Gabi Macra: Yes. Yeah.

[12:45] Paul: And of course you decide, okay, basketball, then teaching, and then actuarial science.

[12:53] Gabi Macra: Yeah.

[12:54] Paul: So how did, how did that end up happening?

[12:57] Gabi Macra: It's a natural progression, isn't it? So my undergrad was actually statistics, and I'd always been good at math. It's something I really enjoyed. I didn't pursue it in earnest at any point, partly because I'm incredibly stubborn, and the more people tell me there's things I should do, the more I don't want to do them. Probably learning later that maybe you should listen to some of those things and just be open-minded when someone says you should do something. But I got to London and really wasn't sure what I was going to do, and I I did have a friend who said, oh, have you ever thought about doing actuarial?

And we kind of talked about it a little bit. She was in banking, so she was quite familiar with that side of the world. And I looked into it and there was a really good postgrad program in London, and I thought, you know what, I— working here in any other way is going to be really difficult. I'm not sure how long I can stay here, and this is definitely a great path into being able to live in London and become a permanent resident, things long-term. So it had a lot of benefits and it's, it's a good profession. Like there's definitely more supply than, than more demand than supply out there.

Actuaries are in short supply versus how many jobs there are. So it just felt like a safe, secure thing to go into that had a lot of potential.

[14:20] Paul: Yeah. How do you think your mindset and approach to just working full-time, the corporate world shifted from when you started to kind of middle and then maybe later stages? We can get to that. As well, but I'd love to hear kind of some of the things reflecting back and how you might have shifted.

[14:39] Gabi Macra: Yeah, so I mean, at the outset, I finished my postgrad, worked as hard as I could to actually get a position, and got hired somewhere, um, and they're new grad intake at a consultancy. And, you know, the beginning, you— for me anyway, I just wanted to sort of get through my exams, qualify do well, sort of progress at my job. I was loving what I was doing. I was learning so much all the time. So it was very, very go, go, go, sort of get your head down, work as hard as you can, put in the hours, put in the time, the effort, and just keep progressing essentially. And that was my mindset at the beginning.

It was just soaking up information and moving ahead essentially. And then things shifted a little bit. I, I was with the consultancy for, for many, many years, and I've sort of, as became more senior and took on more senior roles and things like that, at one point I started wanting a little bit more balance. So I would still work hard, but I was thinking about how do I actually get a little bit more balance in my life. And then at one point I finally made the move and switched in-house to a company. So essentially, rather than consulting, you're working working in a team internally at a company.

And that was a really interesting shift actually, because it— I almost got back to the point where I put my head down and started going again. And that's partly because you're in a new environment, new team, new people, and you're almost trying to prove yourself all over again. So that, that was definitely almost like the cycle kind of going over and over again.

[16:19] Paul: Yeah, I think in those beginning stages it it often makes sense to be spending a lot of hours because you are getting that payback in learning. And then I think when you're still working those hours over time, especially if you're in the same type of role without shifting into something new, I think that's where there might be a disconnect that emerges for people because you're not getting that learning payoff anymore and you're kind of substituting that with like what, uh, you said this before, like what people say you should be going for, right? So, did you notice any of that as you progressed?

[16:56] Gabi Macra: Yeah, I know, I think that's such an interesting way, way to put it. And I do think the motivation while you've got that learning payoff is really high. I mean, for anyone who really enjoys learning, and I'm definitely one of those people, absolutely love learning. And you're right, when, when I switched into more senior roles and moved in-house and things like that, a lot of it was more about achieving things. And like getting the next job role or anything like that versus I was still learning, but the speed of it definitely wasn't the same. And it, I got into quite a bit of like trying to affect change where I was.

So then it became less about learning sort of new skills. Well, it was a new skill, but some of it was about actually just like, hey, well, how do I make things better here? So the shift focused.

[17:46] Paul: Right. And you eventually kind of ended up burning out, right? And I think you put it in quotes of saying both, you discovered that both mind and body can be pushed into fatigue and stress. So we don't have to go there immediately, but I'd love to hear like, what were some of the things or positions you were thrown into or just experiences that kind of led to those things piling up to that point?

[18:19] Gabi Macra: Yeah, um, I, I think some of that was, I would say, led by just the culture of being in the corporate world, and some of that is also very individual and very personal in how you approach it. And I think for me it was a combination of the two. I mean, the corporate world just doesn't stop And especially when I was working with both the consultancy and in-house, I mean, there's always something else and you can always, in a consultancy, you can always put your hand up for something else and do another project or things like that. And in the corporate world, it's kind of like ongoing projects that almost never ever end, or there's always change. There's always another deadline. There's always, um, sort of annual, there's always something going on.

Um, so you, so you can always push yourself. And then the other side of it is, sort of yourself. I always felt like I should be doing things and kind of pushing myself. So it wasn't always someone telling me to do something or expecting something of me, but it was me wanting to go forward more and more and more. And that was just kind of this ongoing theme really in my life that I pushed myself very hard.

[19:29] Paul: Yeah, where do you think that comes from? I guess what I'm curious about here is Do you see any connection between that and basketball? And I mean, in basketball, when you are putting in the work, you often see the impact of that, right? And then I think I talk to a lot of people and people get frustrated because they're putting in so much work and it's hard to really know what the, what the output of that is. And I think that's often why people default to kind of these extrinsic goals. Do you see any parallel between that?

I mean, feel free to just say that doesn't make sense.

[20:09] Gabi Macra: No, no, it makes sense. No, it definitely makes sense. There's definitely parallels. I mean, I think to your question of, you know, why do— on my personal note, why do you think I felt that I had to drive myself that hard? And that was a combination of things. I mean, the parallel with basketball was that was just another area that I did that in.

And I did it because I absolutely loved what I did, and I loved playing, and I loved getting better. And then I think the other factor that actually we haven't really touched on, but just sort of my upbringing and the way that I grew up and the kind of environment that I grew up in, my family actually. I was born in Romania, not in Canada. My parents defected when I was very young. We restarted in Canada with absolutely nothing. And my parents are absolute— I mean, I have so much respect and admiration for them and what they did.

But growing up in that environment of, you know, you don't have a lot and you just, you have to work hard to get the things that you want and not just want, but the things that you need. And I think that was just ingrained. Like, my sister and I are both workaholics, self-professed workaholics. You know, my mom was the same. But it was, it was partly almost a survival instinct of, you know, you have to work hard because you have to keep your family afloat. And I think that was instilled in me at a very, very young age, not in a negative way at all, but it really carries through that, you know, you just, you have to keep going, you have to put your head down and you have to make things work because you need to.

[21:50] Paul: Yeah, that, that definitely makes sense. I think I think where people get frustrated now is, I mean, that is no longer work hard within these set hours. It can literally just be 24/7 because of technology. Um, and I think that's where some of the disconnect I'm seeing is happening. And also a lot of people are able to, um, meet basic needs more simply now. And then there's the confusion of like, okay, what are we working here for?

[22:22] Gabi Macra: And.

[22:23] Paul: If you are far in your career, how do you actually take a step back? So I guess shifting here, when is the first time you thought about taking a step back?

[22:38] Gabi Macra: The first time I really, really thought about taking a step back was probably back in— it was around sort of 2015, late 2015. So early in 2015, I had a fairly serious sort of health episode. I got really, really dizzy. It was in the spring of 2015. It actually lasted for weeks. I kept going into work while I was going to doctors to see what was going on.

I was still going into work. So that thing we talked about, you know, pushing yourself even when it's not necessary. You know, my boss told me to go home a bunch of times. So nobody was asking me to come in when I was ill. And that was a bit of a wake-up call. The end result of that was a diagnosis of MS, multiple sclerosis.

And that really made me start thinking about what was I actually doing in my life to create some balance and how was I living it and did I really need all the things that I was doing or getting? I mean, I had a decent salary, I could feed myself, I had a roof over my head, but did I really need all the extra? And that's the first time that I really started to think about what I was actually doing and how, how my life was playing out in terms of what I was doing to my body and my mind.

[23:58] Paul: So how did you get from that point to deciding one day, okay, it's time to leave?

[24:07] Gabi Macra: So that took a while, actually. I, I think at the beginning, actually leaving work completely wasn't really on my radar. I was trying to figure out how to be less stressed, spend less time working, things like that. But at the same time, other opportunities were coming up at work, so it was almost going in two direct— two directions. And then in 2016, I decided to take a few months off and just travel a bit. I went to go do some yoga teacher training.

Yoga had become a really big part of how I was managing MS in an incredibly positive way. And I just saw so many good effects from it, the impact it was having on my life, my body, my health, that I was really drawn to learn more about it. So I actually went away for 3 months with no intention of leaving work, but it was more time for me to reset a bit, learn some new things, and find a bit more balance. And it was really at that point though, when I was away, that I just had a moment of just after seeing so many other things that you could do out there and just going, you know what, there's got to be a different way to live, and maybe what I'm currently doing isn't the best way for me.

[25:24] Paul: Yeah. How many weeks did that take? I'm always curious about this question. Um, it seems to be like you need to take a break of at least a month for these questions to start really seeping in. But how— when did that pop up for you?

[25:41] Gabi Macra: So for me, if we're talking in weeks, I would say it was around sort of 8 to 10 weeks. And that, I mean, that might have been for various reasons. I was also going through some things at the time in my personal life, so I think that a lot of my trip and my traveling actually was really clouded by that. I was just trying to take take a step away. And it really switched for me during my teacher training. I started feeling different.

And then I stuck around, and with the school that I did my teacher training with, I interned for a few weeks afterwards on their next course. So I got to sort of experience from the side of training other teachers and being in that environment. And, you know, I just had a day where I realized I loved getting up every morning to go in at 6:30 AM to meditate for half an hour, and then sort of hold some space to help other people go through an experience that I just went through. And I absolutely loved it. Like, I would work 8 to 10 hours sometimes, and it wasn't work. It was what I didn't feel like work.

But just how much I got out of that back that I kind of went, you know, there's, there's definitely something else out there. And that was maybe at about 10, 11 weeks.

[26:56] Paul: That's fascinating. Was there a conversation with somebody that shifted your mind at all, or just experiencing that waking up and living in a different way that really shifted it for you?

[27:10] Gabi Macra: I think it was a combination. So when you're traveling, and especially when you do a course like that and you're meeting teachers and people— and I met quite a few, I was, it was in Bali and Ubud at the time, um, and I'd met a few people that were living there outside of the course that were living there having sort of the digital nomads of Ubud, having businesses that they did online. I got in conversations with them as we went along and nothing, you know, no one prodded me to do anything different. It was just hearing about their lives and how they lived. And then a few of the teachers that I worked with, just getting to know them and what their life was like, as I love them, are just very traveling-around-the-world teachers. And though I think that's just planting seeds as I was having conversations, and then my own experience and how it made me feel.

And then, you know, then I did wake up one morning and go, right, I, I can't go back and do exactly— I can't live exactly the way I was living before because too much has shifted in me.

[28:11] Paul: Right. So you decided to talk to your boss and say, okay, this is time, I'm gonna take a leap here. Walk me through what shift— well, I think what's interesting there is one, how that conversation went, and then two is what was the shift after? Because I know you ended up staying on the job for a while, but you experienced the corporate world in a totally different lens.

[28:40] Gabi Macra: Yeah, yeah, I actually, I ended up staying for 18 months, so my notice period was 6 months and we kept extending. And the initial conversation with, with my boss, back to your original question, it was actually really positive. He wasn't terribly happy that I was about to leave. I had actually just stepped into a new role. I had taken over being head of that team, which kind of transpired before I went traveling. A few things were happening at the same time, and we agreed when I came back that I would get promoted.

Essentially, so I came back, got promoted, handed him my notice, and we had a really positive conversation. I think my boss understood where I was coming from. I was very open and honest with them about why I wanted to do something different and what had shifted. And I think the fact that I wasn't leaving because I hated the company, I was leaving because something needed to change for me, also makes a difference. But to the second part of your question around sort of what shifted and how that was different, I think after I resigned, um, I, I changed the way I worked. So I allowed myself to work more regular hours, if you will, more than 9 to 5.

Um, I allowed myself to take time out in the middle of the day if I needed to, or even take time out to go and think about what I needed to do for my team. So despite that I was leaving the team, there's a lot of change happening and I really wanted to drive that forward as much as I could before I left. But I gave myself the space to go sit in a coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon for 2 hours to just have a think about some of my strategy stuff, brainstorm on things, and just space away from my desk, away from the office. And I think doing all those things, I felt so much more balanced, and I actually became much more effective at my role than when I was flat out working there for 12 hours and being visible for working, yeah.

[30:44] Paul: Yeah, did you do anything different with your finances at that point? Did you start rearranging how you were spending money or thinking about saving?

[30:54] Gabi Macra: I started saving in earnest, especially because at the outset I was only meant to be there for another 6 months. And I had a pot of savings, but they weren't that big. I had just been traveling for 3 months. I spent money on a yoga course. So, I switched gears completely. I started rethinking, you know, do I really— I didn't buy as much stuff.

I bought a lot of stuff before that. Just even eating out, my habits, things like that, sort of why am I doing this? Is it just because I'm bored and I need something to do? Am I being lazy? I love cooking actually, so why am I not cooking more? And yeah, I definitely started saving like crazy and then extending and ending up being there for 18 months actually helped a lot because It just allowed me to save more, but it also let me experience that sort of cutting— I don't even think cutting back is the right way to put it, but sort of figuring out how you can live life and not actually— you don't have to spend that much money to live the same type of life, really.

[31:55] Paul: Right. So, you recently have finished the 18 months. I think— when did you actually leave?

[32:04] Gabi Macra: So, I left on 31st of August 2018, so last summer.

[32:11] Paul: Awesome. So, what have you been doing in the past 8 months? What have you learned and what are you starting to think about next?

[32:21] Gabi Macra: So, in the past 8 months, on a sort of just what have I been doing, I hung out in London for a bit, I went to Bali for 3 months again, I did another teacher training exploring sort of some opportunities with a school that I'll likely be doing some work with, built a website, come back to London to try and start a few things up. But, and that's kind of like the, you know, what have you been doing? But I think the biggest eye-opening for me over that period was more stepping away from work and then suddenly realizing how much of my perception of myself and all of that was wrapped up in that part of me. And having to go through that was much bigger than all the other things I've done over that period, if you will.

[33:10] Paul: Yeah, I mean, that resonates deeply with me. I think I was this, like, quote-unquote successful corporate person, or at least from the outside. I think there was always a disconnect for me on the inside, but Trying to figure out what that identity is in an ambiguous kind of like self-employed world is so hard, right? Because there aren't easy containers to fit into. How are, how are you thinking about it now?

[33:37] Gabi Macra: Um, that's such an interesting question. So I think one of the big things that happened when I first left is I really wanted to disassociate myself with being an actuary. And I've kind of not come full circle, but now when people ask me sort of what I do or what kind of things are going on, and I'm happy to say that I'm an actuary. I'm not currently working as one, but that hasn't changed. It's not like that knowledge or that experience or that ability has gone anywhere. Am I going to work as one?

Not likely. That's not really the path I'm pursuing at the moment. Well, I'm kind of happy to talk about the different things that I, that I do and those skills that I have rather than exactly what I'm doing at the moment. You know, I teach yoga and I like to work with people therapeutically, and I'm about to start a yoga therapy course this summer. I don't shy away from saying that I'm an actuary. I'm not currently working as one.

So it's kind of, it's evolving really, and I'm just finding ways to be comfortable with all the things that I have done, even though they don't really define me at this point in time.

[34:45] Paul: Yeah, it's definitely a hard question. I think a lot of people who are self-employed or carving their own paths deal with— I think part of it too is it's just a reaction to what people are constantly asking you, right? They want to know, what do you do?

[34:59] Gabi Macra: Yeah.

[34:59] Paul: How do you make money? What are you monetizing? What are you scaling? And it's like, well, I'm just creating a bunch of stuff and trying to figure it out as I go.

[35:07] Gabi Macra: Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, no, I love that. And I think that is like the— when someone asks you that question, for me, and I, you know, I can't speak for anyone else, there is that immediate of the underlying sort of question is really how do you make money? Um, it's not necessarily, you know, they want to put— that question I think is around putting someone in a box, kind of understanding where they fit when you're having a conversation. But the stigma when you're answering it from me is, okay, well, my answer is basically going to tell you that I currently make little to no money because I'm at the start of it. And that makes me uncomfortable because I've always, I've always made money.

I've made good money. And that's been a part of how I define myself, even if it's implicitly, not explicitly. So that's, I've found that quite difficult.

[35:58] Paul: Yeah, that definitely resonates here as well. How, how did you decide to go into a 1,000-hour therapy program? So maybe talk to me around your initial hesitance and then what helped you make that decision.

[36:17] Gabi Macra: Yeah, um, well, the, um, the motivation sort of in simple terms was how much yoga had helped me with MS and how much it's— I mean, my symptoms are pretty much nonexistent. I get a little flutter here and there, but even stopping to notice my breath for 5 minutes makes them go away. So for me, it's been just so powerful, and that was kind of the catalyst to thinking about doing something like that and just being able to actually help other people, not necessarily just MS, but just various conditions. And then sort of to the other part of your question around sort of how did I decide and when did I decide, I'd actually applied for a couple different courses last summer and then just really wasn't ready to make that decision. I got accepted on both and I wasn't ready to make that decision, and I was really, really hesitant to make it.

Something about it kept— like, it would just give me anxiety, the thought of actually jumping into something else. And that's kind of what it felt like, was I've left my actuarial world, and what I actually felt like I needed was space just to allow things to settle, to go through a few things, and then whatever was coming next, for it to come in naturally when I was ready, rather than jumping in a different direction and just switching gears of, you know, working crazy at something but just switching what that thing was. And that was a struggle in itself as well, because I wanted to jump at something, but it also felt so uncomfortable to do that that I chose not to. And I let that sit for a while. I had a— one of the schools, the one that I eventually accepted the place on, the woman who runs it was incredibly supportive.

I mean, we— I've never met her in person, we've spoken, but she— I was honest with her about exactly what I just said to you, that I just didn't feel comfortable making that decision. And she said, make it when you're ready. If it's not now, it's not now. You have to do what's right for you, which spoke volumes for me.

[38:17] Paul: That's such a good lesson in sales too. I think, I think too many people are trying to learn all these sales maneuvers to like get people to close and get people to accept. And that's like exactly what I want to hear when somebody's trying to get me to be part of something they're doing, right, is like make the decision when you're ready. And that's actually going to get buy-in to people that actually want to be there and aren't going to regret those decisions.

[38:44] Gabi Macra: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, when you've got that— I've had that buyer's remorse where I'm in a shop and I buy something and I go home and I'm like, what did I do? And if you think about something like a course or something you're going to be a part of, to close any of those sales off with sales techniques and anyone jumping into it when they're not ready, even if it's something actually that is the right fit, that's just not the right sort of emotion or not the right connection to it that you want starting it. It'll sour it, I think. I mean, she was brilliant. Both schools actually were really understanding.

It's just I happened to pick one in the end.

[39:23] Paul: You started a fun side project called Real People Do Yoga. So, I love the concept behind that where you feature stories of just pretty much exactly what you called it, real people doing yoga. What was the inspiration for starting something like that?

[39:42] Gabi Macra: So in my experience, I was teaching a bit of corporate before I left work, including where the place I was working and then another corporate across town. And I always found it so interesting when people, they wanted to come and they were interested and they would come to me and say, you know, I'd really like to come to yoga. But there's always this but, and then you could fill in after that with anything. I'm not flexible, I'm not strong, I don't really work out, I'm not fit, I can't sit still, like anything. I'm too old, I'm not the right shape, I'm not the right size, things like that. And I would always turn around and say, well, like, it's perfect for you actually.

That is why it's a good idea for you to come, because all of these things can change or whatever. And I always found that people are so intimidated at going into studios and other areas where actually you've got a lot of people who already do yoga, and it's, it's just not the most comfortable place to start a yoga practice. But I meet so many amazing people who have yoga in their lives, and they don't fit that mold that you see on Instagram or other social media. And I just wanted to find a platform where I could share stories of people who do yoga that aren't your typical, you know, you open up Instagram and you see whatever portrayal of a yogi. And it's just stories of normal people, but they happen to have yoga in their lives.

[41:07] Paul: That's amazing. If you ever need pictures of people that can barely like bend over, be flexible, I'm happy to volunteer some.

[41:16] Gabi Macra: I'll be coming to you.

[41:19] Paul: So I, we were also talking a couple weeks ago, you were thinking about implementing an idea from one, somebody else I interviewed, Lydia Lee, who came up with this idea of the learning internship. Have you taken action on that? And how are you thinking about implementing that?

[41:40] Gabi Macra: I have actually. No, no, that's, that's ongoing at the moment. So what I've that, that con— I love that concept. Um, and it's something that I had wanted to do in my business longer term, and I kept thinking that, oh, once I'm up and running and I'm making money and I'm comfortable, then I want to start doing things on the side that are sort of giving back. And then after I listened to that podcast, I went, well, why am I waiting? I've got a 3-month window now between yoga therapy starting and being back in London.

I'll pick up some paid work, but probably not tons. So why am I not filling my time with gaining more experience and actually giving something back. So I started a project called Yoga for You, and it's private one-on-one sessions which I'm giving away to 8 different people, and they get an intro session and then 5 follow-up sessions. So it's like a full-on program, and I've put it out there actually, so it's, it's done and dusted. On Sunday night, the, the questionnaire closed. I have 18 people who volunteered.

I'm filling 8 spots. Awesome. Yeah, so actually yesterday I started going through the questionnaires and the actuary and me got out a spreadsheet and I've looked at sort of different factors of how do I slim down and pick 8 people. I'll be contacting people by the end of the day on Wednesday and then it'll start sort of full swing at the beginning of March. So it's going.

[43:04] Paul: So did you write something up and share it on social media? Did you email people?

[43:10] Gabi Macra: Yeah, so I did a bit of everything. So, um, I started off— I had just launched my website, so it was actually a really good opportunity for me to send out an email to everybody and anybody that I had an email contact for, launching the website and announcing the project. I announced it on social media, so I went on Instagram and put it on there. It went on Facebook, so quite a few different avenues it went out on.

[43:33] Paul: And how did you frame that as an opportunity? I know I mean, I've tried to use this with people as well as just saying, hey, I want to do this, hold me accountable. Maybe we give each other a small gift. I'm going to commit to these number of sessions. What I'm trying to get out of it is learning feedback, those kind of things. But how did you specifically pitch it?

[43:57] Gabi Macra: I pitched it as kind of a, almost a pay it forward idea. So I put in that sort of, what would people— I put in what would you get out of it and what do I get out of it? So I was very open about what I was hoping to get out of it. And that for me, that's working with people one-on-one. I've, well, I've done quite a bit of that in the past, actually putting together a program and working towards something rather than just individual sessions that I pick up. So for me, it was, I really want to test out some of the tools that I've put together, and I really want to be able to help people with different areas that I'm interested in.

And for you, essentially, you get some tailored one-on-one yoga and work on things that you want to work on. That's basically the way that I framed it.

[44:46] Paul: That's pretty amazing. I'm wishing you luck on that. Maybe we'll have to check in on how that went in a few months.

[44:53] Gabi Macra: Yeah, I know. Happy to check in. I'm really excited about it, really looking forward to it.