Accidental Freelancer To Brand Consultant, Founder & Freelance Coach (Austin Church)

[01:40] Paul: Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Reimagine Work, Austin. Today I am talking with Austin Church, who's an experienced freelancer, but a lot more than that. I think a creator, a father, somebody that likes helping people, a children's book author, and hopefully somebody that wants to have a fun conversation now.

[02:05] Austin Church: So I think we'll be able to accomplish that for sure.

[02:10] Paul: Let's, let's dive in. I'd love to start with just your background. So what were some of the work scripts you grew up with and like, how were you thinking about like all that it means to work when you're an adult?

[02:28] Austin Church: So I had all sorts of odd jobs growing up. I never thought of myself as entrepreneurial. I might should have considering there were so many people on my dad's side of the family in particular who had always own their own business. You know, I don't know that my dad, my dad ever held down a job, so to speak, after college. Like, he started an insurance agency, ended up buying his dad's insurance agency. My mom had business ventures of various sorts throughout my childhood, young adulthood.

And so I kind of laugh now thinking that like I was surprised that entrepreneurship was something that would interest me, even captivate me, right? But I thought for the longest time that I was going to be a college English professor. And so that was the track I was on. I studied English. I taught high school English for a year, realized that wasn't for me. And so I took the GRE, applied to grad schools, got into one, moved from Nashville, Tennessee, where I grew up, to Knoxville, Tennessee, where I, I still live.

And it was about, I think I was about 1 year into that 2-year master's program, fully expecting that I would go on and get my PhD, but I was 1 year in. And had that jarring moment of, I don't like this. The thing that I thought that I wanted to do, I don't like this. And I remember this one conversation with— she was like the president of the Student Government Association for English. So she was my colleague in the program, but she was on the PhD track and she said, so So why, why are you here? Like, why did you enter this program?

And I thought, well, what a dumb question. I like to read, I like to write, and I like to teach. I mean, so I'm in like an English program, right? And she said, and I'll never forget this, that is so refreshing. And I was like, oh, I thought it was a dumb question. And I also thought my answer was boring.

What do you mean? That's so refreshing. And she said, when I asked her, like, what do you mean? And she said, well, a lot of people just, this is a job. Like, this is, oh, I'm good as a lecturer, or I'm good as a writer. And this is a career.

So I guess my passion came through. But I was surprised that like being passionate about the work itself would be a differentiator. Because I'm kind of like, money can't be the upside here. Like, surely, like, why, why would you pursue something something that you're not like deeply passionate about if the money also sucks, right? Like, that caused my brain to short circuit. But again, I was already thinking about someone I didn't realize yet about myself that I liked money.

Or more specifically, I liked what I could do with money. I always loved to travel. So I finished the program. Took the first job that was offered to me, or maybe it was the second, but the first one was at an insurance agency. And I was like, I'm not ready. I'm not ready to enter the family business yet.

Right. But, but I took a job as a copywriter and social media strategist at a marketing agency. And I had the writing skills, looking back, I'm a little bit embarrassed about like the portfolio that I showed up with because I had zero copywriting experience. I think I might have helped a friend who owned a restaurant write a blurb for the menu. But fast forward 6 months, got laid off.

[06:51] Paul: That was your first job. 6 months in, you got laid off right in the recession.

[06:55] Austin Church: Awesome, right? Like, so this— so I got the job in October.

[07:01] Paul: Welcome to the working world.

[07:02] Austin Church: Right. And you're like— and so my head is spinning, right? And it's not like I thought, oh, I'm this really shrewd businessman. I mean, I was clueless. Like, you could have filled everything I did not know about business with, you know, you could fill 1,000 dump trucks, right, with everything I didn't know about business. And I do think self-concept is important.

I did not have a self-concept that included Austin is an entrepreneur. I was still Austin is a poet who fell into a job in business because he didn't have any other options, right? And so that's just important. To note that it wasn't some master plan. I hear about people like that. That was not me.

So yeah, I started freelancing after getting laid off after working at a marketing agency for 6 months. And once the first big lightbulb moment for me where maybe this could be promising was when my old boss at the agency, he called me up and he said, we can't actually finish the projects that you were working on. Um, could you tell me your freelance rate? And I had enough sort of social savvy to be like, absolutely. And then I'm like Googling what is freelancing, what is a freelance rate, right? But I knew that they billed out my time at $85 an hour.

And I figured, well, if I can leave a little bit of meat on the bone for him, I know he's in a bind. So I threw out $40 an hour thinking that he would say no way, because that was still a lot of money for me at the time. And he said, great. When can you start? Meaning, like, restart the projects that you were working on last Friday? Because like, that was like, I got laid off on a Friday.

This is Monday or Tuesday, right? When can I start? I'm like, I don't know, 3 and a half minutes. Like, as soon as we, as soon as we hang up, right? Like, I don't have anything else to do today. I was probably still in my pajamas, right?

But anyway, that's how I got started. So it was being pushed forcibly out of the 9-to-5 nest. I coach so many freelancers now who have had to muster so much more courage than I had to muster. I just, my, my courage was swinging my feet out of bed that morning, right? I didn't have to have courage. The choice was taken away from me.

So. That's, that's how I took the plunge.

[10:13] Paul: Yeah. And I think there's an interesting thing there. It's often a what-if of my own path too. I didn't leave my path until 10 years into my career. And in 2008, I was spared for layoffs. Like my teammates in another group were all laid off, I was kept on.

And I just wonder, Like, would I have been way more entrepreneurial basically 9 years earlier if I had taken that path?

[10:43] Austin Church: Yeah.

[10:44] Paul: And I think a lot of us have this in us, right?

[10:48] Austin Church: And dangling what-ifs.

[10:51] Paul: Yeah. But, but also just this drive to be like, we'll figure it out.

[10:57] Austin Church: Right.

[10:58] Paul: So you, you land this freelance contract and then when did you start to shift to be like, okay, I'm, I may not get another job. I may just try to hack a living and keep this game going.

[11:10] Austin Church: So the answer to that question is actually, it's something, it goes back to something you just said, which is, I think people think that, that label entrepreneur, or even the idea of being your own boss is, it's like predetermined, it's something you're born with, and you have or you don't, right? And I think that's not true. I don't think anybody comes out of the womb already being good at business. I think it comes down to, well, what motivates you and what values do you have? Your motivations and your values can change over time. And for me, once I got a taste of setting my own hours, once I got a taste of the autonomy and flexibility, I think I was hooked.

I know I was hooked. Right. At that point, like, even after only 6 months at the agency, I'd already butted heads with the creative director. I didn't like the culture. That person had humiliated one of the designers on the team to the point where the designer cried twice within a week in front of the whole team. And I got bullied a lot in middle school and I just can't— like in those situations, there's something that comes out in me, good or bad.

But I went to the principal of the agency and just said, if this is that kind of place, we need to go ahead and begin planning my exit because that's not okay with me. And I don't want to make myself out to be like some sort of courageous person. It was more just triggering for me perhaps than anything. Creative director came to me and was like, how dare you go above my head? And I was like, you never listen to a word I say. So why would that situation have been any different?

Good news is creative director left me alone after that. I wasn't an easy target. Bad news is I just had seen these things in the culture. And so I think I was— my time there was always going to be limited, right? Yeah. But, um, I was motivated by freedom and the thought that I did not have to go back to that office and that culture was like just thrilling to me.

So even though it was like really scary that I did not know where the next paycheck was coming from, and I have been a money idiot for most of my life and It's only been in the last, I'd say, probably 7, 8 years that I've proactively increased my financial literacy. But I got laid off, had $486 in my bank account. $486 seared into my memory because I just felt stupid, right? Like I should have planned better. So it was scary. but it was also thrilling.

And so how did I know when this path, like, you know, hey, this path could be, could be for me, maybe I could hack together a living here. Um, it was that it was being surprised at how relieved and excited I was, even though I had things to be scared about. Um, but also I think I do have this streak of pragmatism in me where I was like, Austin, if you just lost this job, to go and get another job like this probably isn't the best strategy. Because if that job was, you know, went away, then similar jobs to that one could go away just as easily. So this whole idea of job security if you work for somebody else. Um, even back then I was like, I'm not sure I buy that, buy into that idea anymore, you know?

[15:18] Paul: Yeah, I, I think what you experienced too is just this, this autonomy, this, oh my gosh, I can carve out my, my own time, commit to things, figure out what I want to work on over the long term. How long did it take? For you to start thinking about that as the game you were playing?

[15:37] Austin Church: 6 months. So I landed, at the time my monthly living expenses were, I think around $1,100. I was, Knoxville's not an expensive place to live and I was single and I had a roommate and so, but fast forward, you know, 6 months from, you know, April, early May of 2009 to November. And through a series of events, I actually landed a— it was— I need to go back and check. It was either $2,800 a month or $2,900 a month, but my first legitimate marketing retainer, which more than covered my monthly expenses. But like, so I was netting, let's say, $1,700, $1,800 a month.

And suddenly it was like, wait, this isn't just fooling around. Like, I have freedom here. I, to some degree, I do have a little bit of say over who I work with, right? But this is just better. This is better, you know, and this idea that, oh, well, if, if I stay a freelancer, I'm somehow taking a pay cut or I'm giving up security or safety or predictability. That's true.

Particularly the predictability. That's true to an extent, but within 6 months, the benefits had started to outweigh the drawbacks. And that, I think, is when I I got excited. I'm like, oh, well, this could not only be like survivable, it could be sustainable.

[17:24] Paul: Yeah, for many people, there's that initial phase of just needing to either land a bunch of clients, make a certain amount of money, or get that retainer project that gives them a floor, and then they can start thinking, yeah, yeah, then, then the game really shifts to, okay, what do I want to do over the long term? How do I design in new projects that expand me and push me and motivate me, keep me creative. And it seems like 10 years later that you've managed to do that. What do you think are some of the surprising or interesting things you learned about that along the way?

[18:06] Austin Church: So I'll, I'll give you a few more touch points. I learned pretty quickly that if you show competence if you prove yourself capable in this one area and you've got good rapport and trust with clients, they will often then say, well, can you handle this too? You know, I know you're the copywriter. Well, I mean, and it's a good thing, especially when you're coming out of like a scary season financially. It's nice when I'm like, you just want to give me more money. And you, you to some degree will just, if it's something that I can't do, you'll just let me go hire the photographer I want to work with, right?

So I eventually kind of grew into project management and was acting like a general contractor on some of these bigger creative projects because I had proven myself capable. And so one thing led to another and I hired an iOS developer to build a mobile app for me called Mustache Bash. Really dumb photo booth app. Put a mustache on a photo. But it's just interesting, like, one thing led to the next, and well, if I can hire a web developer, why couldn't I hire an iOS developer? And if I can hire an iOS developer.

Well, why couldn't I work with like a full-stack software engineer? And so I eventually co-founded a tech startup called CloseUp FM. And we made ticketing, touring, and communication software for independent bands. Did that 2013 to 2017. Then I started a a branding and marketing studio with a friend, and I wound that up in March of this year. So March 31st.

And so I've found that like, it's lovely to have this curiosity and this love for creative problem solving and to some degree, a little bravado that makes me think, well, I wonder if I could figure that out too. And I wonder if I could figure that out too. But the drawback of that is, um, I have been spread too thin at times. And, um, I'm now in a season of, I think I just, I want to do a lot less, but I want to do those handful of things, that handful of things really, really well.

[20:52] Paul: Right. Yeah. I've started to see self-employment as almost seasonal, like different times of the year. I want to be operating in different modes and different energy levels, and I could see how there's kind of a, a broader thing too, which is like, okay, my first couple years are about gaining confidence. Next couple years were experimental. I think I'm hitting a similar point too, where I've launched all these projects and experiments, and the next chapter for me is like, okay, how do I automate some of that and really focus on the things and also leave space for where I'm going to evolve to that next chapter.

Which is really hard to manage. But I think it's been one of the upsides for me of self-employment, which is that it kind of forces you in this very antifragile mode of like constantly pressure testing your life and keeping it afloat and energized and creative. But to other people, they look at it and they're like, hell no, I'm keeping my job. And that's where you're talking about at the beginning around people need a lot of courage to take our paths.

[22:01] Austin Church: And I do think that, yeah, you can, after a while, sort of develop this demeanor. Your tolerance for risk does go up through being acclimated to risk. You know, my friend Jordan talks about staring into the abyss and chewing glass. That's entrepreneurship. Like, sometimes you don't know where the next project is coming from, no matter how carefully you have planned, how diligently you have marketed. Sometimes your lack of control just becomes very, very apparent.

But still, if you want to choose this, right, it's like there's, there's always going to be a part of every job or every type of work that, that you don't love. I've just continued down this path because I've found that I really like most of it. And also, I do think I have a little bit more control to proactively sort of prune out the parts that I don't like. You mentioned automating, like, if you, or if either one of us were in a 9-to-5 role, we might be handcuffed and not have the ability to like hire a virtual assistant and redesign process and say, oh cool, like slowly but surely I'm staying in my zone of genius and somebody else can do the things that I don't enjoy, you know?

[23:38] Paul: Yeah. In my former job, I remember I was trying to propose this very like cheap SaaS tool that would have made our lives easier. And she's like, well, we can't use that. We paid $10,000 for this tool. This is the tool and we have to do it this way. It's just like, I'm basically getting paid to do something stupider and slower.

Hilarious. But, but I think a lot of people like me basically end up self-employed because we just have such desire to like craft those things by our own rules and not have to follow the rules and the, the directives of a company.

[24:19] Austin Church: It's addictive to like be your own boss, to make the rules. And if you, like you said, if you are a person who cares about efficiency, if you notice problems and if you think, well, there's got to be a better way, that's as much a trait of entrepreneurship as whether or not you have ever been self-employed, you know, so there's no one to blame too. That's true. That's true. So it's, it's been, I mean, things change, the game changes when you have kids, we have 3 kids. But I ask myself probably every 6 months or so, like, is this still what I want.

And so far the answer has always been yes. And over 12 years later, answer has always been yes.

[25:18] Paul: Yeah. Do people push you and say things like, don't you feel like you should get a regular job now that you have kids? Or are people used to you kind of playing in this different mode for a while now?

[25:30] Austin Church: I have, I have never gotten that. I don't think anyone has ever Not my parents, not close friends, certainly.

[25:39] Paul: You said you came from more of an entrepreneurial background.

[25:43] Austin Church: So that's, that's probably it. I don't think my either one of my parents would have ever been like, oh, like, maybe you should just go get a 9 to 5 because they didn't. But, you know, I have— maybe it's been more self-inflicted pressure where you have a bad week or a bad month and you look at friends who are doing very well and can clock out like that. That's a feeling sometimes, you know, like just be like, oh, like it was a rough week, but 5 PM rolls around and I am not thinking about any of that. Although I don't believe that that's actually true for most people. I think that like situations and anxiety surrounding those situations leaks over into the weekend, even for people who could compartmentalize.

I don't think we are nearly as adept at compartmentalizing as we let on, but.

[26:47] Paul: Yeah, I think it, I think it used to be easier, right? When you, nobody could contact you.

[26:52] Austin Church: That's right. Now I can get in touch with you in 17 different ways on Saturday morning. Right?

[26:58] Paul: Yeah, every hyperactive manager is unconstrained now.

[27:04] Austin Church: Like a rabid dog at the end of a leash. Oh no, the leash broke. They're slacking, you know, they're slacking me on Saturday morning. And I just need permission to say sorry. And I do think the book Essentialism by Greg McKeown was really helpful to me because it's just half the time having the language. To tell people I'm not available.

[27:28] Paul: But what are some of the things that's kept the journey alive for you? Um, how have you thought about friends, um, community, like building your life around your kids? Like how does that all work and how do you, uh, set it up such that it helps you stay energized?

[27:46] Austin Church: So I do like people. I think that helps. So, um, I've always sought out entrepreneur friends and I think because I started collaborating so early with other freelancers, that helped because, hey, we're working on this project together. We may work on another project together. Um, so I've always had community. I know a lot of freelancers, a lot of consultants and entrepreneurs have loneliness.

And I've certainly felt that at times, but I do feel very fortunate in that. I mean, I think about a friend of mine named— he's a client of mine too. His name is Jonathan Longnecker. And early, early on, I mean, this is probably fall of 2009, so my first year. I entered a contest that he and his business partner were running. And, you know, here we are 12 years later, still friends.

So I still collaborate or still partners in crime, right? So that has always been something that I valued. And then I think this answers your question too. I have always sought out mentors. Because I think if you like efficiency, and I do, like, it's, it's normally pretty apparent if you're floundering or just flailing about, right? And so I've always sought out mentors that I'm like, hey, here's the situation, and they could say, well, here's what I might do if I were in your shoes.

That being said, I think One thing that I'm trying to improve on is not trying to do everything myself. I mentioned collaborators, but, uh, actually I had two business partners sit me down at one point, this is 2016 or 2017, and say, you're too independent and you need to ask for help from us. More often. The strangest intervention of all time, right? But I really appreciated that because they were right. Like, I will work, I will run myself ragged to not sort of inconvenience other people, which is part of my family culture growing up.

It's like, just don't inconvenience other people, right? Well, the fact is, a lot of people would be happy to help. And they're thrilled that you asked because I help other people a lot. And a lot of people are happy to respond in kind. They're just, please just ask. You know, so I'm, I'm learning to ask faster and faster.

And I actually see that as a really strong character trait that I need to nurture. Because trying to do everything on your own, this idea of fierce independence, it's an illusion anyway, right? You don't refine your own gasoline, so you're already dependent on other people with different skill sets, right? You don't compound your own pharmaceuticals, right? So I'm just needing to learn that I need to have the humility to ask for help really, really quickly. I wish I'd known that sooner.

[31:30] Paul: Yeah. Would love to dive into some of the freelancing stuff. So I know you coach people on becoming freelancers. I've noticed, and I've seen you write about this as well, when people start out as freelancers, they're often very afraid to commit to the path. And I think there's a challenge because on the one hand, many people are leaving full-time jobs and they want to like soften their attachment to work. But at the same time, when you become a freelancer, it's almost impossible for other people to know what you do and that you exist and that you're for hire unless you're like screaming it from the rooftops and saying, I am a freelancer.

[32:14] Austin Church: That's right. That's right.

[32:16] Paul: But a lot of those people are like, ah, I don't want to do that. Uh, maybe I'll get another job. I'll just keep interviewing. How do you coach people to think through that?

[32:26] Austin Church: I, I say two things. One, no one is paying nearly as much attention as you think. So two, if you're worried about coming across as tacky or needy, because you're— you've put out your shingle and you've said, I'm available for hire. Neither of these things exists. And the odd person out there who does think, well, gosh, I really wish Paul or I really wish Austin would just shut up about this new freelance venture. They were never going to be clients and they don't understand marketing.

Because you've got to get accustomed to showing up and making offers. That's like the heart of— I might even say showing up, giving people a chance to care. That may actually— reframing marketing that way. So early on in their freelance journey, people tend to be a little bit reticent, not And I mean, like, again, this was me to some extent, like, oh, don't inopportune, like, don't, like, don't inconvenience people, right? So I really had to get, like, break out of some of that programming. And so it's, it's fairly common.

I think that's probably why you've, you asked the question, you noticed it too. But in practical terms, one of the very first tactics I recommend is asking my coaching clients or some freelancer I run into at a coffee shop, right? Commit to a statistically significant number of activities. 100 at least. So if you're going to talk about, oh, I'm a freelancer now on Facebook, or you're going to talk about it on Instagram or on LinkedIn or wherever, put in at least 100 activities, discrete activities. So if it's one Facebook post or one Instagram post or one LinkedIn post, that's one activity.

Don't say you can't trust your feelings because you're going to have that script in your head that's like, I feel like a broken record, this isn't working. And I'm like, that doesn't matter. You have to get out there and make moves. So if you're— if you wake up and you trust your feelings and that story in your head, instead of the commitment to a statistically significant number of activities, you'll give up too soon. It's just like fitness, right? You have to go for the workout, go for the run, go for the walk on, on days where you don't feel like it, right?

Marketing is the same way and freelancing is certainly no different. So That's one of the first pieces of advice I give just to get people up and moving, so to speak. It's like if you're out of shape, keystone habit number 1, count your steps, right? If you're not yet in prime freelance shape, count your steps. In this case, it's make 100 posts on Facebook. Share what you're thinking about, share, share what you're doing, tell people how they can hire you and for what.

[36:01] Paul: Yeah, I, I tell people just to email their friends and family too. I, when I, when I started, um, somebody, I was talking about becoming a career coach for like a year and then somebody was like, well, just do it. Just put your name out there and tell people you're a career coach.

[36:19] Austin Church: Coach.

[36:20] Paul: This was 20, 2015. And so I just sent an email and said, hey, introducing Paul, career coach. And it was like terrifying. It, it's supposed to be, it's supposed to be terrifying at first.

[36:31] Austin Church: It is terrifying. That's right.

[36:34] Paul: But 2 people sought me out from that and like really wanted help and like really trusted me because it, I was a friend of a friend.

[36:42] Austin Church: And you're like, why did I wait a year? Right.

[36:46] Paul: Well, I think, I think I'm fine. I was still employed. I'm fine with waiting a year. I think part of it is building up the courage, but it really clicked for me then that you need to give people stuff to react to.

[37:00] Austin Church: That's right.

[37:00] Paul: They're not, they're not just going to hear about you and then come up with the idea, oh, have you ever thought about hiring someone? You need to make the signal. You kind of need to put all these stakes in the ground that say like, for hire, can do this, interested in these things. Things. And then people react to them in different ways.

[37:19] Austin Church: I think about it like a 3x5 yellow sticky note inside of a file folder. And on that yellow sticky note, your name is written at the top and you have 4 bullet points. And that is how much— not your close friends and family members, but you're sort of, you know, one degree removed, the like, 2 to 500 people in your personal network who know that you're still alive and breathing, right? They only remember maybe 4 things about you. And so in terms of like your professional path, you've got one bullet point. And what's crazy is if you don't put in those activities then you're never going to revise that bullet point.

You're never going to swap it out for Paul Millerd, career coach, right? Because they know the last gig you had. And that was because they saw a LinkedIn update back in the day, or you mentioned that you got a new job when they saw you at an event 3 years ago. Right. And I'm with you, like when I I bet out of the dozens of freelancers I've coached over the years, one— and she's my client right now, that's why it's fresh— when I said, do all of your friends and family already know that you're available for hire? Like, only one person has ever answered yes.

And that's the place you got to start. Like, if you think about concentric circles, which people are most likely to give you your first shot? It's going to be friends and family, right? Because like you said, or at least they're one degree removed, they're like, oh, well, this person trusts Paul. So sure, let— I want to have a conversation with him about what, you know, career coaching might look like. And anyway, I— you have to, through force of repetition, proactively change the bullet point for all of these people in your personal network, so that when they do have a need that you can help with, they even know that you're available for hire.

People can't care if they don't know. So like that idea of giving people a chance to care. Is, that's one of the first things that I teach about marketing, because marketing seems really scary. And I'm like, no, just revise the bullet point and give people a chance to care.

[40:06] Paul: How have you managed your own evolving identities? You've done a number of different things— startup, freelancer, marketing, copywriting, freelancing, book author. How do you kind of manage those and go with the flow into different modes?

[40:25] Austin Church: The short answer is not well. I, I sometimes feel disingenuous if I don't tell you everything that I'm working on, except that's just confusing, right? I had a friend tell me like, Austin, like, do you know that anytime we talk, you tell me the latest thing that you're working on? Instead of the main thing that you've done for years. And I had another friend, we were catching up and he like did not realize that freelancing, that's like, that's been a lot of copywriting and content over the years and then consulting and that's been a lot of business strategy and brand strategy. Those have been continuous threads for the last 12 years.

But in his mind, I'd had, I had had all these different careers. And I'm like, well, that's confusing to me, because the way I have always paid my bills, whether it was during startup days when the startup wasn't paying me, you know, we were putting, reinvesting everything in the company, like, this has been the one continuous thread, but it was a messaging mistake on my part that the thing that I talked about the most, which again, the thing you talk about the most is the thing other people will remember. I would be talking about my children's book. Right? Or I would be talking about travel hacking. Oh, like, we went to Greece and we took this $30,000 vacation and it only cost us like $1,500.

Right? Like, whatever I was excited about, is what I would talk about. And so that's been hard for me to be like, okay, I still get excited about new things, right? Like I'm working on this summit for the fall and I'm excited about that. And I've got a space retreat coming up at the end of September and I'm excited about that. But Austin, people can't remember that many things about you.

What do you want to be known for? That's what you need to talk about most often. Not with close friends, of course, but like in the public forum, on my socials, I need to be talking about the thing that I want to be known for. So I don't know if that answers your question, but it's been a struggle for me, and I'm still very much learning in that area.

[43:03] Paul: The best way I've learned to deal with it is by making friends like you. That, that, that way we can just skip the, what are you up to? It's like, oh yeah, a bunch of stuff. Don't want to talk about that.

[43:15] Austin Church: Right.

[43:15] Paul: That's confusing.

[43:17] Austin Church: All the things. That's what I'm up to. All the things.

[43:20] Paul: But it's a, it's a hard thing to manage because you have your curiosities. Um, and then you have the things that are going to make you money. And then you also have the things like you want people to pay attention to you for. So, so right now I have like, I do coaching with executives around presentations and do training and facilitation around like consulting skills. And I've just launched like a freelance course. Nice.

Most of my writing, however, is on how do you make sense of this off the default path, digital nomad life. None of that makes me any money.

[44:02] Austin Church: That's right.

[44:03] Paul: That's right.

[44:04] Austin Church: Yet.

[44:05] Paul: Yet. But it's super fun and it makes me a ton of friends. So I keep doing it. And there's no real good answer to this. You kind of have to just be comfortable being a messy person or a legible person to other people. And I think this is why it raises the stakes for making sure you have these friends that are on these paths.

Do you have like a go-to person or group of people you go to that are like, these are the people I can just talk to that I don't need to explain why I'm doing what I'm doing?

[44:40] Austin Church: Yeah, so there's a local guy, his name is Joey Gilkey, and I mean, shoot, we, we talk almost every day. Um, and then I'm in a mastermind group with 3 other entrepreneurs who are just as varied and multi-passionate as I am. So that's every 2 weeks. And that's— that the format is really good. Like, we will all do a short 10 to 15 minute check-in and then one person is on the hot seat. Of course, I have lots of friends just from different walks of life and that sort of thing.

Many of them are entrepreneurs too, because I think like attracts to like. And so, you know, you end up, you end up becoming friends with people who share some of your identities, like father, Christian, entrepreneur, even like lover of cigars and bourbon, runner. I love fly fishing, right? I'm an avid reader. I mean, there's a guy, he's a local restaurateur. And when we get together, we just talk about the books that we've been reading.

And so, yeah, you're— I think you're right that like have those people in your life who like to geek out. Like I just finished this podcast and I spent some time with my friend Andrew and we just, we just geeked out on this thing. Right. So, but that being said, can I comment on one thing just about simplicity? So that is, I'm in this, I'm very purposefully cutting things off, like I'm not doing certain things anymore. I'm saying no.

And I did it this morning. Like, it's a really cool consulting project with— I mean, I don't know. I think they were a billion-dollar company. I don't know if they are still, but it's a social platform everybody will have heard of. And it was for user experience strategy, user experience design. And that is something that I have done.

but it's, it's adjacent now to what I want to be doing. Like if you said, Austin, choose anything, what do you want to double-click on? It's just adjacent enough.

[47:22] Paul: Yeah.

[47:22] Austin Church: That I thought, you know, I need to say no. And I think you, I'm sure you've had those moments where here's the path.

[47:33] Paul: Well, it's a hard thing to do too, because it's it's guaranteed money, you know, you can do it compared with just kind of sitting there and waiting. And you really have to have faith that like, one, I know I'll figure out something else. And two, I'm guessing there's something more interesting.

[47:52] Austin Church: That's right. And I mean, there's a certain amount of faith required to say no. Um, gosh, I was writing about this yesterday that like, the one bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, that programming runs deep in a lot of us. And we— it's called scarcity mindset. It's this idea that, well, if I say no to this, I might come up short. And there's another way of framing that, which is if I say no to this, that will free me up to pursue things that I care about more deeply and honestly things that I'm better at and So from time to time, I'll take an audit and I'll be like, what am I best at?

What do I really want to be doing? Like, if money were no object, how would I spend my time? Because I like to work. Most people like to work. Work is so fulfilling when this work is pointed at something that you deeply enjoy, something that you know, lines up with your natural enthusiasm and curiosity, right? So work is a gift until it becomes a curse because you're spending all your waking hours doing something that is adjacent to what you really want to be doing.

And so actually, I have a lot of clarity around what I want to be doing, but there still come those crossroad moments where you have to say, No, in order to preserve that yes.

[49:30] Paul: In terms of next steps for you, what, what are the projects you're excited about? I know you're trying to trim down what you're working on. How are you thinking about what you're working on or what you're not working on in this next season or chapter of your journey?

[49:48] Austin Church: What I am eager and willing to sell right now to my consulting clients is 4 different types of strategy: brand strategy, launch, or you could call it go-to-market strategy, marketing strategy, and content strategy. Um, half the time with my retainer clients, we kind of do, we touch on all those, but it's just packaged up as a monthly strategy retainer. We talk every 2 weeks, we talk through everything, we problem solve, right? That's on the consulting side. So I'm not doing a ton of copywriting anymore. I have really great copywriters sort of in my roster, you know, in my stable.

But as much as I still do enjoy copywriting, I just I'm in a season now of wanting to be really selfish with my writing. But strategy, that's what I'm doing in the consulting arena. On the personal brand and like long-term business venture side, I have a coaching program called Business Bootcamp for Freelancers. It is a 6-week program. It— we follow very specific, like there are very specific objectives and assignments for each week. I mean, it is sort of like a kind of like a boot camp format where I'm like, hey, by the end, you will have a clear structure for your freelance business.

You will have your positioning. You will know who your dream clients are. You will have 3 core offers that you would love to do a lot. This is work that brings you joy. So the whole point of the program is like, I believe that you can and should do joyful, profitable work. Joy and profit are not mutually exclusive.

Don't believe anyone who tells you, well, maybe in an ideal world, but we don't live in an ideal world, right? Look around you. It's like a lot of people love their work and make great money. So this, like, I think use your joy as a compass, right?

[52:23] Paul: I think this is such a key thing. This is actually something that flipped for me. I think after working for 10 years, I had this idea that like work was kind of just suffering. And I always, I always like, I wanted to like what I was doing, but it was always like minimize what I'm working on so I can spend more time out of work. Now I'm like doing all these things I actually really like and it's so much more like I'm so much more excited about everything because it's not even, it's not even as much about the money. It's like, oh, I actually want to spend my time this way.

Therefore, like, I don't really care if I'm escaping work at any time in the future. It's like, I just want to figure out how to do it sustainably.

[53:13] Austin Church: I love vacations, but I don't really need them anymore. Like, I love having new experiences with my kids and friends and my extended family, but I enjoy my work. It energizes me. And one other thing that you touched on that I think is really important And if there's one thought defect that I like helping freelancers I coach upgrade, it is this: making money is hard. Well, who told you that? Because there are many, many examples of people who find a way to leverage their passion, their excitement, and they actually— like, I already mentioned that strategy feels like cheating to me.

Like when people pay me to do strategy, especially if it's like cool people who saw some problem in the world and they're like, I need to do something like mission and cause-oriented people, passionate people are typically a lot of fun to work with. So I get to meet these incredible people and help them accomplish something they care about and they pay me to do that. I'm like, This is, this is more like play than it is like work. So I just wish more people knew making money is hard if you spend your time on work that doesn't bring you joy. But if you pursue the work that brings you joy, you'll actually have a competitive edge And you'll end up making more money. This assumes though that you're even in a market that like rewards work ethic and joy.

[55:05] Paul: So yeah, I mean, that is one advantage of being in the US. My wife is Taiwanese and it's just not the same market opportunities here, but it also just really makes me appreciate having access to the American labor economy. I don't think a lot of people appreciate that as much.

[55:25] Austin Church: I have a coaching client in— no, she's not a client yet. She's a— we've been chatting about her becoming a client, but she's in Germany and she was just talking about how different the EU is than the US. But, but anyway, all that to say, Business Bootcamp for Freelancers. Let's scale your most joyful, profitable work. And 6 weeks from now, you're actually going to have a clear, viable business plan. And that is so energizing.

All the 6-figure freelancers I know do the same things. So don't reinvent the wheel. Do that. Use the 6 Ps. And then the 3rd thing is I'm working on a book. It's been awesome.

I would be fine spending 4 or 5 hours a day writing, and I'm finally closing in on that goal.