How To Retire Well: Dennis Owen on Moving Abroad, Building Community, Volunteering, Adapting to New Cultures, Creating Routine, Consulting After Retirement, Managing Money Mindset Shifts, Staying Current with Technology, Health Habits, Navigating Expat Li

[00:58] Paul: Today I am talking with Dennis Owen, and the reason I wanted to talk to you, Dennis, is because I feel like you're doing retirement well, and I want to explore a bunch of your story. You spent 4 decades in the airline industry. 11 years ago, you moved to Asia and have been living here ever since. 6 years ago, you retired to Chiang Mai in Thailand, where we are now. You do a bunch of different stuff. You sort of describe yourself as somebody that dabbles here and there, helps with a bunch of projects.

You volunteer with an orphanage in Thailand. You do some secret shopping for hotels. You help people edit their books. From what I've seen, you're on the board of a co-living, co-working place. So you seem pretty busy. I want to explore how you're balancing that, how it feels.

And all of that and dive into your story. Welcome to the podcast.

[01:54] Dennis Owen: Thank you for having me.

[01:55] Paul: Happy to be here. So I wanted to start in 1982. You're graduating college, you're entering the workforce, and I imagine you didn't expect to be ending your career several decades later working on social media. So talk, talk to me about entering the workforce in the early '80s and how you were thinking about life. Yeah.

[02:19] Dennis Owen: You know, interestingly, I, uh, my major was sociology, so it was kind of a premonition to, to groups of people. I've always been fascinated by people, but yeah, I had no idea. And I don't think many of us do when we start out from college and, and go into our career, unless you're gonna be an engineer or doctor. I think many of us just kind of figure it out as we go. So I ended up going into the travel industry. I was always interested in that, even in high school and college.

And so I wanted to figure out a way to be involved in that because I was, I was always interested in travel, thought it was exciting. And I didn't know how I would do that. But the college I went to had a month in between the two semesters called winter term. And it was and I just thought it was such a great program. You could stay on campus and do projects there, like learn Chinese for a month. You could travel.

I went to Mexico and lived with a family for one month. And my last year I did an internship with a cruise line. And even that's interesting. I just sent out, I don't know, 25, 30 letters to cruise lines saying, hey, do you do anything like this? And 28 didn't answer. One came back and said, we don't have anything like that.

And just luckily, one came back and the president's son happened to go to the same university I did.

[03:44] Paul: Nice.

[03:45] Dennis Owen: And because of that, I was able to do an internship with the cruise line in the offices in San Francisco. And from there I got a job. So, you know, my last semester in college, I knew what I was gonna be doing. So that was my first foray into the travel industry and did that for a couple of years and then went into the airline side. The business. So, uh, so cruise line to airline and spent the majority of my career obviously on the airline side.

[04:11] Paul: Yeah. What, what were some of those early experiences like working in airlines? As soon as you work for an airline, you now have access to basically fly anywhere as an employee. Did you start traveling early?

[04:22] Dennis Owen: Uh, I did. Um, I was based in Newark, New Jersey, and at the time I worked for PeopleExpress Airlines, which was an unusual company in that you didn't have one job. They cross-trained us. So one month you were flying as a flight attendant, the next month you were on like working at the airport. And then if you didn't work in the hub, you, you could do other things. And I started calling on travel agents.

Now I just did that on my own. It wasn't something that was set up, but they gave us the ability to think about something else that you could do. And we only had, we only had one flight a day and I worked 4 days on, 3 days off. So it was a, like a 12 to 14-hour shift for one flight. So I had a lot of free time and I'm not one, I can't just sit around, I have to have something to do. So I really just started calling on travel agents and that led me into a very long career, over 30 years with Cathay Pacific Airways.

And so that element of doing something different than what the job title was got me in the door at the next airline.

[05:31] Paul: So you go to work for Cathay. Talk to me about working for an Asian company. They're a company based out of Hong Kong. What were some of the cultural, maybe cultural challenges of working for a company anchored in Asia, and how did that broaden your perspective?

[05:48] Dennis Owen: I think my career at Cathay Pacific involved a few areas. I started out in sales. And then I was in and did that for many years and worked my way up in terms of promotions. I worked in San Francisco, Dallas, Los Angeles, and then I moved over to the cargo side for a couple of years. And then I moved into marketing in San Francisco. And then I ended up being asked to come to go to Hong Kong to be in charge of social media and brand.

So I had quite a variety. In terms of culture, I think it was an easy fit in the United States because we ran it more like just a local entity. So I think the culture shock oddly came 25 years later when I moved to Hong Kong. And I was a little bit surprised that there was a culture shock because I'd been going to Hong Kong for a long time, several times a year. And I knew the company, but working in Hong Kong versus working in San Francisco was a very different culture. In the United States, particularly being in charge of social media, that was around 2008, and that was really kind of the start of social media, and it was the heartbeat of social media, really.

I mean, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Pinterest, everybody was there. And I remember at that time, Mark Zuckerberg, what was his line? Like, move fast and break things.

[07:16] Paul: Yeah.

[07:17] Dennis Owen: And so I didn't believe in breaking things necessarily, but I did believe in move fast and try new things. And that was a really, really fun era. Now, when I got to Hong Kong, it wasn't like that because move slowly, move, break anything, you know, headquarters are different. It's like turning a big ship around and, and Hong Kong is a political city. And when you're one of the largest companies in the city, uh, in Hong Kong, it's kind of like a big town. So you make the news a lot.

So there, it was much more cautious in approach. So yes, you could try new things, but it took a lot longer to get buy-in and there were a lot more entities that had to say yes. Where in San Francisco, I pretty much could try whatever I wanted within reason. I had a, had a great boss that let me, try new things, and that was fun.

[08:07] Paul: When you went to Hong Kong, did you think that you'd still be in Asia 10 years later? Actually, I did.

[08:17] Dennis Owen: Um, I always felt like we would be going to Asia at some point. I did not know how, but my daughter is adopted from Vietnam, and from the time we got here, I started doing some volunteer work and projects around orphanages in Asia. And I felt like at some point that we would move over. May, maybe it was a little earlier than I thought. May, I thought maybe, okay, when I'm not working full-time, I would go. But I think Hong Kong was kind of the doorway to this volunteer efforts that I've focused the last few years on.

[08:53] Paul: Yeah. How'd you get involved in that?

[08:55] Dennis Owen: Well, it really did start with my daughter. Um, when we adopted her, I'd never been to an orphanage before. I don't think most people have been to an orphanage. So it was in just outside of Hanoi, about an hour and a half and pretty basic. Uh, I mean, the kids were well taken care of there. There was not an issue of that, but just, I could tell there was just a need for funds, uh, vitamins, clothes.

I started out with the easy stuff and then that progressed into taking people from Cathay Pacific on work trips, painting projects, art projects. So it, it grew beyond me to, to allowing other people to experience the ability to, to give back.

[09:39] Paul: Yeah. And raising someone who is Vietnamese, how did you think about like connecting? I mean, this is something I'm thinking a lot now with a daughter who's Taiwanese. Uh, how did you think about connecting to her culture and integrating that as she was growing up in the US?

[09:57] Dennis Owen: Yeah, that's kind of a funny story. Um, in the United States, back when Abby was smaller, they had these heritage camps in Colorado and they may still have them. I don't know. But one weekend might be China. The next weekend might be, uh, Cambodia. The next one is Vietnam.

So we took her 2 or 3 times. So the kids would go off and kind of learn about the culture and do fun things. And then the parents would go to classes as well and learn about their culture and adoption issues. And I remember one lady came in that was, she was in her 30s and she was adopted from Vietnam. And she, she was very nice about it. She said, I know you have good intentions.

You know, when you, when you want to involve your daughter in the culture, such as taking them to an Asian parade. And then she got quiet. She goes, but just as it's novel to you, it's just as novel to your child. And I like, it was just kind of like, oh, of course, you know, they're not going to relate to it per se, but you know, you try to expose them to the culture. And we lived in California at the time, so it was pretty easy to do, but knowing fully well that, yeah, it's novel. I did things like getting VCR tapes of songs in Vietnamese and things like that and had her watch shows.

I remember one time she was 3 and it was some Vietnamese people on the TV and I was trying to explain to her, I'm like, I said, "They're Asian." And she's like, "You are Asian too." And at 3 years old, she looks at me and she said, "No, I'm not. Look at my face." And it was one of those things where when you're raised by white parents, they know they're Asian. Yeah. So she looked at me like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah.

[11:40] Paul: It's an interesting challenge. I had a cousin, um, who was Korean and raised by his parents and they tried to get into that. I never thought about that because, uh, now my wife, I'm able to tap into the experience of these things. We go to like a dragon dance, but, uh, my wife Angie experienced that as a kid. So she has that like, Oh, this matters to me and I can, me and my daughter can both feed off that in a, in a natural way.

[12:08] Dennis Owen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your experience is similar to mine in many ways.

[12:12] Paul: Yeah, definitely. So your, your daughter now is in the US. You're the one traveling Asia. Yeah.

[12:20] Dennis Owen: It's usually the Asians in the United States and the white people are in Asia.

[12:24] Paul: So we did it actually flipped. The young person exploring the world.

[12:28] Dennis Owen: That's right. I always, I made the joke because we started out in the airline industry in my 20s. So we did our retirement travel in our 20s and 30s. We, we travel less now than we did then, but I know we still travel, but you know, I've, I've been fortunate to be in the airline industry and be able to go anywhere in the world for next to nothing.

[12:48] Paul: And so you, you moved to Hong Kong, I think this is in the early 2010s.

[12:54] Dennis Owen: Yeah. About, I think you moved in 2014.

[12:57] Paul: Yes. And so you spend a little time there, you decide to end up staying. Talk to me through like what that experience was like, the shift of you and your wife living in Asia and some of the, like maybe the cultural challenges, the deeper you go. I feel like once you're in a place for a month, it's like, oh, this is perfect. And then like 3 months it's like, oh, there's deeper stuff here and deeper challenges.

[13:23] Dennis Owen: Yeah. I think part of the culture shock was just the work itself. I think the work-life balance in the United States is healthier, whereas Hong Kong, I mean, they call it New York on steroids. So the work culture is very intense. People work really, really hard.

[13:41] Paul: For less pay.

[13:42] Dennis Owen: Yeah. And long hours. So that was different and getting used to that and also being in charge of social media. I mean, social media is 24/7. So yeah, I can come to work at 8:30 and leave at 6, 6:30, but things still happen throughout the night. So it was stressful time because my job was to, part of my job was to try and get monitoring up to 24/7.

But again, in a headquarters, I'm dealing with 7 or 8 different departments and their timeframes. So what could have taken 3 months, took 2 years to get it to that point. But in the, in those 2 years, I felt responsible for making sure everything was okay and there weren't any issues at 9 o'clock at night, or sometimes I'd get up at 3 in the morning and just check to make sure that everything was okay. So I, it's not that the company put that pressure on me, I put that pressure on me. So that was not an easy time. Difficult, but got through it.

[14:45] Paul: When did you start thinking about like post-work retirement?

[14:51] Dennis Owen: I knew that when my daughter graduated from Hong Kong, that was probably about the time to make the shift. Hong Kong's a very expensive place. It's not that we have family there, so I'm like, okay, not, not a great reason to stay. So at that point I was looking at other, other places in Asia that weren't quite as expensive. And that's, you know, we ended up coming to Chiang Mai, Thailand.

[15:16] Paul: Is it random? Did you just travel here once or—

[15:19] Dennis Owen: No, I, um, over the years, because of the volunteer work I did, I met many people in different countries that were in charge of orphans and refugee NGO type situations. So I knew the lady that ran an organization here. That I, I, I refer to as the Asian Mother Teresa. You know, she's very caring for orphans and refugees. So when it came time to look at another country, this became the top choice.

[15:51] Paul: Yeah. And you were, we were talking about this the other day and you said one thing that really helped you is you felt you were retiring to something.

[15:59] Dennis Owen: Yes.

[16:00] Paul: Talk to me about that.

[16:01] Dennis Owen: Yeah. I, I always say you should not retire from something, but you should retire to something. I also quite honestly don't believe in the word retirement. I don't use the word retire. I prefer to look at words like rethink and reset, because if you, if you think about that word retirement, we go through our careers, hopefully advance, and then you hit this point of retirement. It's like jumping off this cliff into the abyss of whatever that is going to be.

But if you look at it as a rethinking and a resetting process, that's a continuum of really what you've done since college. You know, when you change jobs or you get promotions, you, it's a rethink and reset. So just because you're stopping working full-time, it's still a rethink and reset. So I think a lot of this, or a lot of it is about attitude, how you look at retirement. And I always, I tend to be the glass is half full versus half empty. So I always looked at it as like, okay, how can we make this work the best way possible?

Because I've seen people do it well and I've seen people not do it well. And I think the ones that don't retire to something and haven't really planned don't adjust well.

[17:18] Paul: And what were some of the things you planned?

[17:20] Dennis Owen: Well, I knew I was coming here to help with this organization around orphans and refugees, and I still handle their social media presence, the Instagram page, Facebook page, and, you know, raise a little money here when I can. Yeah.

[17:34] Paul: And once you got here, how did you start thinking about spending your days?

[17:40] Dennis Owen: It evolved. I mean, I knew that the NGO was part of the picture, but quite honestly, that didn't take a whole lot of time. And then a friend of mine from Hong Kong moved here and opened a coworking, co-living space. And he was involved in social media in Hong Kong. So we worked together a little bit there. And when he moved here a year before I did, now at the time I didn't know I was going to be moving here, but shortly after he left, then I realized that, oh, I'm going to be in the same place.

So, um, that involvement with the coworking, co-living space has really been a godsend for me because when I was working full-time, I was meeting people from all over the world. You know, I used to meet with travelers that in all sorts of industries, and that was always fascinating to me. Um, and I missed that when I stopped, but the coworking co-living place, it's digital nomads from all over the world doing interesting things. So it's kind of similar in that respect. So I get to meet people from all over the world and it keeps me in touch with kind of the latest and greatest in terms of technology, digital, AI. So that's fun.

And John, the co-working space.

[18:56] Paul: Shout out to John Ho.

[18:57] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[18:58] Paul: John Ho. Alt Co-Living. Co-working.

[19:01] Dennis Owen: It's honestly, I do think it is the best one in the city. It's a very quality entity and there's such a focus on community there. So I hang out there Monday through Friday. It's, I operate like I did when I was working. I'm usually there by 9. Because, you know, when you're in the corporate world for 40 years in the office, you get set in your ways.

So I'm pretty much out the door by 8:30 and get here at 9, get my coffee, get my spot and ready for the day.

[19:32] Paul: Did you— now, do you do that? You do that most Monday through Friday. Have you done that since the beginning of—

[19:40] Dennis Owen: I do. I do. And I think when I stopped working full-time, that was fun for about 2 weeks. And then I realized, no, this is not me. This is not for me. This, this whole, what are we going to do today?

You know, there's no routine. I quickly realized how important routine was. So you have to, you have to create it yourself. It's not done for you. And that has made a huge difference in just, you know, my life, having, having a routine, having purpose. It's huge.

[20:11] Paul: I think it's a totally underrated hack. I mean, this is how we met. You're just hanging out in Alt Living. The first day I went there, John was there. He's like, oh, have coffee with Dennis. And you didn't really have a plan.

You're just going with the flow, talking to people. But it also made me think like, it's sort of sad. There's so many retired people in places like Chiang Mai and they don't really integrate. With like younger people who could perhaps like really be inspired by them or use the mentorship or other sorts of relationships. It's— we sort of have these unnatural walls between generations.

[20:51] Dennis Owen: When we moved here, my wife went to— it was kind of a retired expat lunch and she said, oh, come along. The husbands hang out in the back room. And so I went and we came out. I looked at her and I said, don't ever invite me here again. They were very nice people, but it was one of those where they were focused so much on the past, like, life was better here 20 years ago. And when you're working in brand and social media, I don't have that much in common with people my age necessarily.

I mean, and I guess what I like about my life, I've got friends from all ages. It's not that I don't have friends my age, I do. And even older, but I also have friends that are in their 20s and 30s and 40s. So I have a variety and I think that's healthier.

[21:38] Paul: Yeah. It's, it's sort of a weird thing with schools, the way we segment people by age. So from 5 years old to 22 years old, you're mostly associated with people either plus or minus 3 years. And then you get thrown into the real world and people kind of stay in those, but Yeah. I mean, I've found just so much from just befriending younger people too. They're optimistic in like different ways than I am.

We're just at the same age.

[22:07] Dennis Owen: They're very positive.

[22:08] Paul: Yeah.

[22:08] Dennis Owen: At least the ones I, I hang out with.

[22:12] Paul: So what are, what are some of the projects you've stumbled into? How do you think about what you get involved in, what you do on a week-to-week, month-to-month basis?

[22:24] Dennis Owen: I think the first thing that's important to me is a mental challenge, having purpose. And one thing I've learned about myself over the last year that I realized this has been important throughout my entire career, it's like, I like to learn new things. And I realized that, yes, I'm not working full-time and I don't need to make money anymore, but as long as I'm learning something, It's a good day. If I'm not learning something, it's not a good day. So I just, I make sure I'm learning new things. So when I first left the airline industry and stopped working full-time, I started doing, I set up a consulting company.

Quite honestly, I didn't really make that much from that, but it really was a safeguard against this feeling of what am I going to do? So, you know, I set up a company, a website, and did some, I did some consulting around brand and social media. And then I had a contract with a 5-star hotel here called 137 Pillars that I helped them with their brand and social media presence. So that was great. And just did a couple of ad hoc projects here and there. But I think because I was kind of raised in the corporate world consulting, it's a different mindset, it's a different brain.

And that side of my brain wasn't developed. And quite honestly, I didn't need to do it, so I was never like out there pushing hard. It was more like, okay, if business comes to me, I'll take it if I like it. You know, that's the great thing about being at this stage. I get to do what I want. I don't need to take something 'cause I need the money.

I do it because it looks interesting. So besides the NGO and handling their social media presence, I also ghostwrite for a lady that does leadership courses for middle managers in Myanmar called Bridging Changes. And I handle her LinkedIn page. And what I find interesting about that is that I've always been interested in leadership, the topic of leadership, and particularly the changes as a younger generation comes up. You know, the different generations work very differently. And I've always found that fascinating and how do you adapt to that.

In fact, I had to adapt to that in my job when I left Cathay Pacific and worked for Hong Kong Airlines, my staff had always been anywhere between 25 and 65. And all of a sudden I'm leading an entire team of 25-year-olds, you know, they're between 20 and 30. I felt like I had to start all over in terms of learning how to manage. It was a very different environment, but interesting and challenging at the same time. So I do the leadership the, the NGO. And then I do these reviews for small boutique hotels around the world.

And I got that really just from my time at this, this hotel. And that's fun because it keeps me involved in brand and design and customer service. And I get to look at— it's about 600 questions I gotta deal with. So you've— it gives me the ability to look at a whole bunch of the angles of how hotels work. And that's, that's fun.

[25:36] Paul: How do you create these opportunities? So I think I'm sort of wired like you in that opportunities just keep happening. I love meeting people, like things are always just emerging. But I, I talk to a lot of retired people now who are thinking about reinvention and these things, and they're often like, I don't know how I get involved in stuff. I don't know how to— there's sort of a mindset of like, oh, I need like permission or I need the right credentials, right? How do you create all these opportunities?

Like maybe walk me through one of 'em, like the LinkedIn opportunity or like secret shopping. Like how does that happen?

[26:15] Dennis Owen: Yeah, I think you just have to put yourself out there, get yourself out of the house and meet people. I mean, I've always, I'm an introvert, so, In some ways it's kind of surprising that I got these opportunities. But having said that, sitting down one-on-one is easy for me to do. And I like doing that. So I just met people through, you know, the contract at the 18-month contract at the hotel. That's how I met the lady doing the leadership course.

And, you know, even at the coworking space, just meeting people and talking to them. Opportunity comes that way. So you just have to just get out there and meet people, I think, and look for different kinds of people to meet. Not, not people that you're necessarily comfortable with, like the same age or do the same things as you do. You just meet people, ask questions, because then they ask you what you do too. And then topic, oh, well, maybe you can help me with this.

[27:18] Paul: Yeah. You were editing a friend's book. I think last week. How, how did you end up with doing that? That's not something I usually know.

[27:28] Dennis Owen: No, that was, that was interesting too. Um, when I worked for Cathay Pacific Airways in San Francisco, the gentleman I worked with, uh, PR guy, um, he was an expert in crisis management and part of, and I worked with him for several years, not just in San Francisco, but in Hong Kong, because crisis obviously involves social media. Media. So we had to do a lot of drills around incidents and how would you handle that. And, and the honest truth is the majority of things today hit social media before anybody even else knows about it. So I was always heavily involved in crisis management in these drills from the very, very beginning.

And, um, he recently wrote a book about his time in the airline industry. And the, the crisis situations that he had to deal with. And so because we, we know each other really well and we're friends, he asked me to, to read through his book and, um, just make some suggestions. And I didn't have to do too much. He's a great writer and a great storyteller, uh, even if it is about airplane incidents.

[28:32] Paul: So, so 6 years you've been doing a bunch of different stuff. Uh, you're balancing all these different things. You find things you want to do. How do you think about continuing to reset and reinvent? Like, how do you think about the balance of things? Do you think about it on a week-long period, month-long?

Do you do reflections?

[28:51] Dennis Owen: You know, I've always been a long-term planner. I'm always looking at, okay, what's the next 10 years look like? So I'm 65 and I plan to be around for many, many more years. So I still am in that mode. And I think when I hit 64, I started thinking about, okay, you know, 65 is kind of a shift. In terms of investment money.

You know, they always talk about like, okay, you've reached the top of the hill, now you're going down the other side of, hopefully it's a long walk down the other side, but it shifts your mentality from one of savings to one of like, okay, now you can spend some money. You know, like when you're in a career for a long time, you put money away and, you know, and I've done okay. And so there's a real shift in terms of how I think about life going forward. And again, because it's new and different, I've looked at it as an interesting change. That change can be rough for some people.

And it is an adjustment because, but I think because I'm talking to people about it, I'm reading books on it, I find it interesting, you know, even down to I had a financial advisor for many, many years that invested my money and I didn't pay attention to it, but I'd recently switched to a company called Peak Retirement Planning, and this is about life at my stage. And they combine investing and spending and estate planning and insurance and taxes all into one place. And I've actually, I talked to them quite a bit because the owner is an interesting man. And I got to sit in on a staff meeting of theirs one time, which was pretty cool. And they read a lot of books and they do a lot of things on teamwork. So I'm reading a book about retirement right now.

It's called The New Retirementality by Mitch Anthony. And it's really about doing retirement well and having a sense of purpose.

[30:53] Paul: So yeah, you were, you sent me a couple quotes. I thought maybe I'd read them and we could talk about that.

[30:59] Dennis Owen: Sure.

[31:00] Paul: Retirement is an unnatural phase in the modern life course. It is inserted between work and death and is irrelevant for those seeking to live a purposeful life.

[31:09] Dennis Owen: Yeah, I think that's very true. And I mean, I think retirement, it's, it was fabricated, you know?

[31:17] Paul: Yeah. I mean, it's, I think the first creation of it was Bismarck. In Germany in the 1890s, and their challenge was people were living old and like couldn't work anymore. So what do you do? Right.

[31:33] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[31:33] Paul: Typically like people, most people were like dying. So people were starting to live longer and they needed to like figure out how to like support these people that just didn't want to let them pass away. And then in the 1900s, retirement became, it was such a minor thing because most people didn't live that long. That's right. And it was like a blip on most countries' like balance sheets.

[31:56] Dennis Owen: Yes.

[31:57] Paul: And now we have people in retirement for like almost as long as their careers. Yes.

[32:02] Dennis Owen: Yeah. And that's kind of a scary thought, you know, like even me, like, like I've, in terms of finances, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna plan for 30 years now. Who knows if I'll make it, but that's, that's my plan.

[32:13] Paul: 40.

[32:14] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[32:15] Paul: Figure out, but I thought about, I'm like, wow, that's a long time.

[32:18] Dennis Owen: What am I gonna do? You know?

[32:20] Paul: Yeah. It's, it's sort of, it's part of, I mean, this is what I write about in Life Scripts. It's sort of like we have all these life scripts for like under 30 years old.

[32:31] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[32:32] Paul: Study hard, get a job, get a, get married, get a house, have a baby, dot, dot, dot, retire and figure it out yourself. And it's almost like overly simplified. And so much of retirement is injected for decades with like Be fearful, save as much as possible. Be fearful, save as much as possible. Yes. Okay, you made it.

[32:54] Dennis Owen: Yeah. Now what? Yeah. You know, here you have these images of someone sitting on a beach, you know, drinking a margarita. Well, that's great for a few days, but you know, you can't do that forever. And that's, yeah, it's not good.

It's not even healthy.

[33:09] Paul: Yeah. This is another quote you sent me. Money is part and parcel of the retirement discussion, but is not the primary component. Despite the modern cultural inferences of the term retirement planning, what needs to be planned for is much bigger than the accumulation and distribution of your means. Having the means to retire is important, but what we must also plan for, but often don't, is meaning. And I think this is from— what book is this from?

[33:37] Dennis Owen: That's the one, The New Retirement.

[33:38] Paul: The New Retirement by Mitch Anthony. Shout out Mitch. I'll link it in the show notes. Yeah. Talk to me about that. And maybe, I mean, I know your relationship with money has shifted as well.

[33:51] Dennis Owen: Yeah. I mean, I think everybody needs meaning in their life and it doesn't matter how old you are. And I think when you hit the retirement age, you have to think about that deeper and you have to, you have to think for yourself. I mean, in our jobs, you know, when you think about it, many jobs, we're kind of told what we need to do. You've got to plan, but then when it hits retirement, it is a blank slate. And so you have to think about what's important to you.

What does meaning mean to you? What does that look like in your own life? And I think as a society, at least in the United States, we have not done a very good job. You know, we teach kids how to go to school, they should study and get a job, but then like I said, it's kind of like you jump off at the end. I'm like, good luck. Here's your parachute.

Yeah. Hope it's a soft landing. Yeah.

[34:44] Paul: I found it very interesting when I became self-employed. So many people were concerned with what I was doing because I was veering off that, like, just get a job and stay employed.

[34:56] Dennis Owen: Yes.

[34:58] Paul: And I realized over time it's triggering for other people because a lot of people don't want to think about like, Oh, how am I supposed to spend my time? What is the good life? What is the life worth living? These deeper questions that, yeah, I like contemplating, but not everybody does that.

[35:14] Dennis Owen: A lot of people don't.

[35:15] Paul: I've slowly figured that out. What are, what are some guiding questions for you that help you think about how to spend your time in life?

[35:26] Dennis Owen: Well, like I said, I think learning has, is such an important component to who I am. I look back on all of my jobs and I did my job. I think I did them well, but I was always looking for more opportunities to learn new things, to do things differently. And that's really come into play since I moved here too. And trying to figure out what motivates me. You know, it's not money because, you know, I don't make money per se.

It's not like I get a check every 2 weeks or every month. So I think it, for me, it's really important that I've got something that helps me to, to learn new things. And I think particularly in retirement, Life moves fast and technology changes. And I've seen people that don't stay up with technology and basically lose how to function in life. You know, if you were, you know, years ago we got paid a paycheck, you got a piece of paper every 2 weeks and you walk down to the bank and put it in. And then ATMs came in so you didn't have to see people anymore.

And then, then you didn't get any paper at all. Or if you did, you can deposit for your check. But if you don't keep up with technology, you lose out and you have to have people help you function. And that's not gonna change. You know, one thing that, a topic that I haven't really looked into yet, but I will, you know, they talk about Web 3.0. You know, there's like Web 1, Web 2, and Web 3.0.

And I'm like, oh, I need to learn what that is because I think that's gonna be a big shift in in terms of how we do things. I don't know what that looks like yet, but it's on my list to stay on top of.

[37:24] Paul: Yeah. I think this is one thing I think people underestimate is how much of our lives are increasingly intermediated by technology.

[37:33] Dennis Owen: Yes.

[37:34] Paul: And sort of, it becomes an interface and I think staying up with it also gives you some defenses against it too. So it doesn't take over your life, right?

[37:44] Dennis Owen: Yes. Yeah.

[37:45] Paul: I think probably working in social media is useful for not getting addicted to social media cuz you sort of see how the game is played.

[37:54] Dennis Owen: That's right.

[37:54] Paul: And things like that.

[37:55] Dennis Owen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, we're just bombarded with information and you, you know, you have to take it with a grain of salt and kind of filter it to, to know what, and I think it's gotten so much worse today. It's like, what's real? What is truth?

You know, it's very hard to tell. And I think with AI it's gonna get even, even get more confusing.

[38:16] Paul: In other retirees you meet in Chiang Mai, have you noticed any interesting trends in people from other countries retiring here? The kinds of people you're meeting that are retiring here?

[38:29] Dennis Owen: You know, Chiang Mai has been a popular retirement community for many, many years, and I think that's because the medical system here is very, very good. The international food scene is very, very good. So I meet people from Europe, some from the United States as well. Uh, but I haven't really met that many that are doing interesting things, you know, and that's probably why I don't hang out with them too much. They just are more retired. I mean, they're enjoying life and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's just not my vibe, so to speak.

[39:11] Paul: Yeah. What are some of the practical challenges of being retired in another country?

[39:19] Dennis Owen: You know, you have to deal with visas, um, you know, retirement visas. So you have to renew that every year. So, you know, I've done it a few times now. Um, so used to that, uh, learning how to drive on the other side of the road in a place where driving. They're not really laws, they're just guidelines. So it's, it's, it's really like, and it's for you too.

It's not just for retired, retired people. It's just, it's a different way of driving here. In the first few months, it was exhausting. I'd go out and run an errand. I'm like, I gotta take a nap, you know? But so now I'm used to it.

Um, and it, when I go back to the United States, it feels like such a breeze to drive. You know, you don't have like motorcycles coming around both sides of your car. Yeah, all the time.

[40:03] Paul: And yeah, it is better here in Chiang Mai. We were in Koh Samui before this and there were no stoplights or anything.

[40:12] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[40:13] Paul: And the default is to just keep going. Yes. So to cross a road, you have to like poke your car in the road.

[40:21] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[40:22] Paul: But it sort of works.

[40:23] Dennis Owen: It does work. Somebody explained to me anything goes as long as you do it slowly. So, you know, and that's kind of like when people just pull out, you know, in front of you, as long as you do it slow, it all works. Yeah.

[40:34] Paul: I'd say, I think one interesting thing about living in another country is technology has actually made it a lot easier for sure. Even things like Airbnb and monthly rentals make that relatively easy to like test out and go live somewhere these days. I think the, the basic like stack I recommend is like, find a cell plan that you're comfortable with, though you can get a SIM pretty easily in another country. And then the cheat code for Americans is the Charles Schwab ATM card.

[41:10] Dennis Owen: Yes. And I have that too. Yeah.

[41:12] Paul: No, that works out really well. You just withdraw money and get all your ATM fees reimbursed. But it's pretty wild, like how like, like, uh, cell speeds, Wi-Fi, it's, it's all just pretty good now in most countries.

[41:26] Dennis Owen: It is. Yeah. Yeah. I think generally speaking, Thailand is an easier place, place to retire to. I mean, you know, I've— dude, this is the second international move. The first one's Hong Kong.

And there are stressors in the beginning of anywhere you go, but once you've done one, you kind of know, okay, we're in that first 3-month phase of trying to figure out how banking works and systems work. But once it's all set up, then it's pretty smooth sailing.

[41:54] Paul: Yeah. Thailand's a country that's always had a huge tourist population too. So they've always been interfacing with people from different countries, whereas like Taiwan, and I still struggle in Taiwan because some stuff is just like, there's no English and there's no one in speaking English to help you. You just have to power through in Chinese and than just guess what's happening. Yeah. But yeah, how do you think about the balance of like social projects you're working on, family time, maybe a little bit of traveling you're doing?

How do you think about the balance of all those things?

[42:35] Dennis Owen: I think I keep it interesting by switching things up. One of the other areas of focus for me has been health and wellness. When I moved from Hong Kong, because it was such a stressful place, I was tired. I decided when I moved here that I was going to really focus on health. So that is part of my daily routine. I probably, I go to the gym 5 or 6 times a week.

I have a trainer here because it's inexpensive. You can do that at the coworking space. I go to a yoga class, I do ice bath. So that I incorporate that in part of my day as well. And then, you know, if I've got some work to do with the NGO or the leadership, I do that. And if I don't have that to do, then I'm usually like on YouTube learning something.

Whether it's, you know, I'm interested in Bitcoin and crypto, so I stay on top of that. So I can always find something on YouTube to learn about.

[43:32] Paul: Yeah. What are some recent things you've been learning?

[43:37] Dennis Owen: I, well, like I said, Web 3.0, but that's new. I haven't, that's just on my list. But I think over the last year or so I've been focusing on Bitcoin and it's such an interesting topic and the whole cryptocurrency is such a broad thing. You can't really say, oh, I'm gonna learn about crypto because there's a million different directions you can go to. So I've kind of settled down and focused on Bitcoin. Bitcoin and just watching what's happening in there and just investing a little bit in that.

So yeah, and I think that keeps me current as well.

[44:11] Paul: Awesome. What are some, what are some resources that have really helped you along the way? They're like books, podcasts, other things that have helped you with the retirement itself.

[44:24] Dennis Owen: You know, I have read more books in the last 2 months than I think I have in the last 3 years. It actually started with your book. You know, once I met you, your book, The Pathless Path, it started with that. And I think I said to you that while that was a book about your journey, it actually applies to the retired life too. 'Cause when you think about retirement, like I said, it's kind of this black hole, it's pathless. So you have to create your own path.

So when I read that book, um, it was interesting and it applied to me and it, and it just got me on a path to, uh, being interested in reading books again. I think because I was involved in social media so much, you know, I'm on all the channels, but it, it short circuits your brain. You know, you can't think beyond 30 seconds or 1 minute. And I was getting a little bit worried. I'm like, can I really sit down to read an entire book? But if it's interesting and I'm learning something, I've realized I can.

[45:24] Paul: So there we go. Pathless Path, getting people back into reading. That's right.

[45:30] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[45:31] Paul: I think, um, I've been surprised at how many people who are either approaching retirement or who are retired have reached out and really resonated with the book. But I think it makes sense. I think a lot about that, like in the later stages of my life, I sort of have this vision. I, I'm not even good at like 3 to 5 year planning, but like long-term, I, I still want to be engaged with things. I want to be writing. I want to be mentoring young people.

I want to be teaching in some respect. And so that's sort of the, I sort of see like the retirement phase less as like a stop working and more like this slow transition over the next couple of decades into just doing those things anyway.

[46:18] Dennis Owen: Yeah. Yeah. And doing what you want when you want.

[46:21] Paul: Yeah. Which I sort of do now to mixed results sometimes. Um, but yeah, it's, um, there's a lot of parallels and a lot of it is like creating your own opportunities and really trusting things will work out. Have you, like, what's your relationship been with like uncertainty and like not knowing what's coming and things like that? I think with a career you can sort of, know, okay, this next role or next challenge is ahead of me that I can sort of aim for. But when you're on your own, that void, I think, is either exciting for people, maybe it's exciting for you because you love learning, or it can just be like, you gotta avoid that.

[47:04] Dennis Owen: Yeah. I mean, I think it can be scary for people, but it goes back to just getting out of your comfort zone and trying new things and meeting new people. You know, it's interesting being, again, being at the coworking space and talking to people and then talking to younger people that keeps you young. You know, I had a friend come over from Hong Kong and what was I, I think I was 63, it was my birthday and he wanted to go bungee jumping, which, you know, thought of that was slightly terrifying, but I just, I said to myself, I said I was gonna try anything. So I did it. I went bungee jumping, you know, but people my age and older, they got on me for doing that.

I'm like, oh, you shouldn't do that. I'm like, why not? I'm in good health. Why not?

[47:51] Paul: You think they're just projecting their, their fears?

[47:53] Dennis Owen: Their own fears.

[47:54] Paul: Yeah.

[47:54] Dennis Owen: It's their own fears on me.

[47:55] Paul: But I mean, I'm, I'm a bit scared of that too. I don't know if I want to bungee jump, but when I hear you doing it, I'm like, great. Yeah.

[48:03] Dennis Owen: And then I went out, you know, on ATVs, you know, a few weeks ago with some people. From the coworking place. So yeah, just like I said, you just have to get out there and meet people and talk to people and just try new things and not, not be afraid, you know, within reason. I mean, I'm not gonna do something stupid, but yeah.

[48:21] Paul: Have you thought about coaching or helping other people who are retired sort of?

[48:25] Dennis Owen: Yeah, I actually have because I feel like there isn't that much information out there, as you said. You know, 30 years ago people got their Social Security at 65 and were dead by 70. But that's not the case anymore. People are living 20, 30 years longer. But I don't feel like society has caught up with helping people in this stage of life. So I'm kind of figuring it out myself.

But I have thought, you know, it would, I would like to do that. I always enjoyed in my jobs, Managing people and leading people and giving people advice. And I kind of do that even at the coworking space. You know, I have a little bit of wisdom because I'm a little older. But yeah, I think there's a huge need for people coming up to retirement and helping them transition. You know, I think really probably 5 years before you retire, you should start looking at some of these things and most people don't.

You know, they don't start looking until they're in it. And I think that's a huge mistake. And you could do yourself a favor by thinking about it and planning well before you retire.

[49:37] Paul: Yeah, it seems people think 95% about money and then maybe 5% about like how they might want to spend their time.

[49:44] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[49:45] Paul: If you were to assign someone homework 5 years before they retired, what would you tell them?

[49:51] Dennis Owen: I would tell them they need, as we said it before, you need to go towards something. So figure out what you enjoy doing. And is that something that you can either volunteer or have a side gig, make a little bit of money if you want to? Um, I think there's huge opportunities out there to give back to communities. And I would like to see organizations Somehow come up with a list of things that people could do. You know, you'd have to do that in each country, in each city, but there's, there's a huge need out there to, to give back.

And the brainpower of people retiring is huge. I mean, they've had, you know, many, many years in careers and leading people, and there's people that need guidance. So, uh, just have to be open to that.

[50:46] Paul: What, uh, books, maybe talk to me about some of the books you were mentioning recently and how they've been shaking up how you're thinking about things.

[50:55] Dennis Owen: Um, one that I really liked, uh, was really more on the health side was Longevity by Dr. Peter Attia. And, you know, we all, you know, we're supposed to exercise.

[51:04] Paul: Was that Outlive?

[51:05] Dennis Owen: Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yes. Sorry.

[51:08] Paul: Outlive.

[51:08] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[51:08] Paul: Yeah.

[51:08] Dennis Owen: Yeah. But, but it's about longevity. And that book opened my eyes to thinking not just about eating right and exercising, but there was this whole section on balance that, that should be a real part of our exercise strategy because as you age, you lose balance.

[51:27] Paul: Yeah.

[51:27] Dennis Owen: Physical balance. Because as you age, you can lose the balance. And you know, you always hear about people in their 80s, they fall, break their hip and they're dead in a year. So that should be part of an exercise routine. So that book was eye-opening and interesting, and I've tried to apply that to my life. And then the other one that I enjoy, have read recently is called Die with Zero by Bill Perkins.

And that really is about spending money and feel being okay with spending money. Because I think when you save all your life, you may be good at that, but you're not necessarily good at spending. So it's like you either spend it or you give it away or the government takes it. So I'd rather spend it and give it than have the government take it.

[52:12] Paul: So yeah, I recently had Nick Majulian and his, his first book, Just Keep Dying, or Just Keep Dying, Just Keep Buying, Just Keep Buying. That's a better title about passive investment. And yeah, he had some— some data in this book that shocked me with— I think the majority of Americans, um, have like passed away with money, and the median amount was something like $150,000 or something like that. And so the average person dies with money, um, and everyone's biggest fear is running out of money. Maybe that's the right strategy. You're protecting against tail risk, but it does seem there's a huge opportunity for like learning how to spend.

And also like your generation is incredibly wealthy globally and is going to be living longer, healthier. That money, you can do so many interesting things with money, investing in young people, invest in your community. But I wonder if a lot of it's just going to go into like second homes and I think a lot of it's going to be— 20, 30 years from now.

[53:30] Dennis Owen: I think a lot of it's gonna be wasted and not thought through very well. I don't intend to be one of those people. I think, well, like I said, I have a financial advisor and the technology is there to show you this is how much you have now, this is how much you'll have in 30 years. And I think you're right, people have more than they realize, but because society tells you, you know, you're not saving enough, there's going to be a financial crisis for retirees. You read this stuff and you think, oh, I can't spend anything. And it's not true.

[54:03] Paul: Yeah. Well, if I wrote an article that was like, you're going to be okay and it's probably going to turn out better than you expect, nobody would share this article.

[54:12] Dennis Owen: No, that's not a clickbait material. So yeah, I mean, When it comes to finances, it's kind of like the news in the United States. It's gotta be bad or scary.

[54:22] Paul: Yeah.

[54:23] Dennis Owen: Or people don't read it, you know, which is sad.

[54:26] Paul: Are you trying to do anything to get better at spending now?

[54:30] Dennis Owen: I am. I, for the first time in the last few months, I'm now like taking some money out of those investments and that was a big step. And so it's kind of baby steps at this point, it's okay. That's been okay so far. It's not been too painful.

[54:49] Paul: Yeah. That's, uh, that's awesome. Yeah. I've noticed it's something I'm hearing a lot more about, so I'm not surprised your financial advisor's thinking about this. Um, yeah. Somebody else I connect with, Adam Chapman, is writing a book about like learning how to like live your rich life in retirement.

Like actually spend the money and create the life of your dreams. That's what you're aiming at.

[55:13] Dennis Owen: Yeah. And that's, I think that's similar to this book I'm reading, The New Retirement Mentality. I'm not all the way through it yet, but that seems to be a theme as well. So you retire well and have purpose.

[55:24] Paul: So you said you're, you do like to think 10-year plans. What, what is, what does the 10-year plan look like?

[55:33] Dennis Owen: I think, you know, we live here in Thailand right now and I think at some point we'll probably split our time between the United States and here. I don't think I'm ready to just move back there 'cause I'm enjoying my life here and have purpose here. Whereas if we go back, I'd have to start all over, you know, meet new people and come up with new projects. Not, it's not that I can't do that, but I think I'd rather gradually go into that phase. So splitting our time half, half, maybe in a couple of years we'll see our daughter. You know, she's not married yet.

There's no kids. But I think once that happens, my wife will make me go back a little more than I want to at the moment. Yeah.

[56:19] Paul: Have you experienced like reverse culture shock of going back to the US? I've experienced this a bit after living abroad for 3 years. I sort of felt a bit like an outsider when I went back. I still do. I sort of feel like I'd I don't even know where I belong these days, but—

[56:34] Dennis Owen: Oh no, for sure. Um, and I've, I've actually read some books on that and they talk about people that have lived an international life. The hardest move is going home because you've been gone for a while and you don't fit in. I think every year you're gone, you fit in less and less. And I, and I find that when I go back too, um, when you live internationally, your, your world is broadened. So your, what is interesting to you is not interesting to people that haven't traveled or lived abroad.

It's nothing against them. It's just that that hasn't been their experience. So our experience is very different. That's one thing I've talked about with my wife. We don't know, we don't know where home is anymore in the United States, but we both agree that it needs to be somewhere where there's an international crowd. Because again, my whole career has been around that and living abroad for 11, 12 years.

That's such a key part of, of who we are that to go back to a place where international is traveling to Hawaii and Mexico, I, I wouldn't fit in. That would be difficult. Yeah. Yeah.

[57:48] Paul: It's something I think about too, raising a daughter, my wife's from a different country. We're always thinking about this. I think one challenge we found living in Texas is we didn't have enough of that Asian community. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a constant challenge because when we're in Asia, my wife feels like she belongs more, but sometimes I feel a bit out of it.

But yeah, it's always just balancing and figuring it out. It's, it's a weird life, but it's great to meet other people like you along the way.

[58:21] Dennis Owen: Well, it started for me even before I moved because I worked for an international airline. And so I lived in Texas as well. And when I started working there, like, people didn't know what Cathay Pacific was. They thought it was a restaurant. And even when I told them what it was, you know, the conversation didn't go any further because they didn't have anything to relate to. So I kind of felt like a foreigner.

Even before I left in many ways.

[58:51] Paul: Awesome. What other like final thoughts, other advice on retiring well, like what does that mean to you retiring well? What thoughts might you want to leave with people?

[59:03] Dennis Owen: I think, you know, and I've said it already, but I think there's two words that come to mind. It's purpose and learning. You have to figure out what is your purpose, what drives you, what interests you. And again, learning has been such a crucial thing for me. And like one thing in the book, you quoted some things and I wrote down a quote that Henry Ford said. It says, when a person stops learning, he's old, whether that person's 29 or 65.

And I think that's true. I know many, some people in their 20s and 30s, they're old. But then I know, you know, a couple of people in their late 70s that are very young. So, so much of this is about attitude. I don't look at retirement or age. I don't look at it as a number.

I really don't. As long as I feel good and have purpose and I can keep learning new things, I'm good. I'm happy.

[59:58] Paul: That's beautiful. Yeah. It reminds me of my grandmother. She lived to 93 and she, she wasn't very mobile in the final decade of her life, but she was always learning new things. I'd talk to her and be like, oh, I learned this about Taiwan. It was just so great to talk to her because she was so curious about the world and still learning.

I think she told me once, if you're not learning, you're dead.

[01:00:24] Dennis Owen: Yeah.

[01:00:25] Paul: And I love that. She was very matter of fact, but it's always been inspiring. And I think learning for me is— that was the whole point of me leaving my job is I had too big of a desire to keep learning and I needed a a bigger container for it. Anyway, uh, any other resources you want to shout out or influences you want to leave people with?

[01:00:54] Dennis Owen: You know, I would say that, um, go to YouTube, find something that's interesting. I mean, YouTube is, it's full of so much interesting things. You know, I, I dare anyone to say they can't find anything on there. So, uh, go watch YouTube, learn new things.

[01:01:12] Paul: And if you want people to find you, uh, where can they find you on, on the web?

[01:01:18] Dennis Owen: Uh, I do have a LinkedIn page still. It's under, uh, Dennis Owen and, um, you'll find me there with my history of the airlines. So that's prob— it's probably the easiest place to find.

[01:01:28] Paul: Awesome. And yeah, if you're interested in, uh, getting Dennis's guidance, maybe this is the new chapter for him. Reach out, we can create more opportunities.

[01:01:38] Dennis Owen: Something new, purpose.

[01:01:40] Paul: Awesome. Well, it was a really pleasure to learn more about your life and career. You're definitely an inspiration to me in terms of like how I see my future and hopefully still being engaged with the world. So rooting for you and keep going. All right.

[01:01:57] Dennis Owen: Thank you very much.