#147 You Can Love Cooking Too - Myles Snider on intuitive cooking, living in Argentina, working in Tulum, food industry scripts, health myths, the beauty of "slow cooking"

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I am talking with good friend Myles Snider. I'm excited to jump into his story today. Myles, you've done a ton of interesting things. Your path, your path is like fascinating for me.

It's like perfect for my pathless, my own curiosity. We're going to dive into your path, getting into cooking, exploring, working in the tech world alongside that, and generally your approach to cooking, which has had a huge effect on me. It has literally transformed the way I think about cooking and food and has led to some amazing experiences I've been able to create, which I know is a huge motivator for you.

[01:53] Myles Snider: Absolutely. I love hearing that.

[01:54] Paul: So we'll talk about all of that. Welcome to the podcast, Myles.

[01:58] Myles Snider: Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. I'm a fan of this podcast. I really am.

[02:01] Paul: So it's awesome to be here.

[02:02] Myles Snider: Nice.

[02:04] Paul: You must know then the first question I always start out with is what are the stories you grew up with about what you were supposed to be doing as an adult?

[02:13] Myles Snider: Yeah, I mean, I think that the biggest one for me, like I was raised in Cleveland, Ohio, kind of classic Midwestern upbringing. Like the idea that you're going to go to high school, work hard in high school to get good grades and a good SAT score in order to get into a good college, and you're going to go to college. None of that was ever up for debate. And my parents are fairly— they're very encouraging of me to try out interesting things and follow my passions and things like that. But the whole go to college was absolutely never up for debate to the point where I never even questioned it until like years post-college.

And I think it's kind of interesting because I'm sure you agree with this, but it's like, to me, the— in the American university system, the price is going up at an increasing rate and the value is going down at an increasing rate to the point where nowadays I think the like delta between those is like so big, it's almost absurd. And yet I don't think that reality has like sunk in for a lot of people. Certainly for my parents, they encouraged that because I think they really did believe that that was the way that you could set yourself up on a path towards success as a young person. But even I have cousins who have kids who are starting to go to college now, and I'm like, college has gotten more expensive and less valuable, and yet there's still that idea that that's what you need to do.

[03:38] Paul: Did your parents go to college?

[03:40] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[03:41] Paul: And yeah, I mean, it's pretty interesting. You graduated in 2015, I think. Yeah. And so I graduated in 2007. Okay.

[03:52] Myles Snider: Well, you graduated college in 2007.

[03:54] Paul: Yeah.

[03:54] Myles Snider: Okay.

[03:54] Paul: I just outed myself as old. So, but we, we probably had the same experience for sure. Yours was probably 50% more than what I paid, which is kind of crazy to think about.

[04:07] Myles Snider: It's insane. Like the— it's so crazy how expensive it's gotten, how much it's outpaced. Like any— it's outpaced not only inflation, but any reasonable sort of like answer you could come up with for why it should be so expensive. There's nothing that justifies it. And it's one of those things that I think the reason they've been able to get away with it is because this you have to go to college to be successful is such a core part of at least a very large subset of American culture.

[04:38] Paul: Yeah, I think that is the best explanation. It's, it's a sticky script. And this is kind of what I talk about in my book, which is many people are living lives with these scripts in their head about how the world works. And as long as we believe those, those are actually the only options that are going to emerge. And at the same time, like college can— like it, it is correct because people keep doing it.

[05:03] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[05:03] Paul: And the people that keep doing it have access to higher wage opportunities anyway. So it's really hard to argue against. But I think that's interesting is you ended up going to school in New York and ended up going into cooking right after school, which does not require a degree. And degrees are probably not even that common.

[05:23] Myles Snider: No. And I mean, I think that like so much of what I've done, there are things that I've done in my career that I think probably would not have been possible if I didn't have that sort of like rubber stamp on resume of like, oh, graduated college. But I think that for the most part, let me think of how I would phrase this. Like, there were certain opportunities that those doors were unlocked because I had that on my resume, but not because any of the skills I picked up during that time were actually relevant to that.

[05:53] Paul: Yeah, it's more of a signal of competence or being able to actually stick out and finish things.

[05:59] Myles Snider: And I think that people like you and I and a lot of others are seeing cracks in that system, and it slowly seems to be tearing at the seams. But you just had a kid. When you think about 18 years from now, do you think your kid is going to go to a traditional 4-year university in the same way that you and I did? Probably not, right?

[06:21] Paul: I assume she will because she'll probably rebel against me and my wife. That's true. And then get a corporate job and just be like, you guys were so wrong.

[06:29] Myles Snider: Totally.

[06:31] Paul: But so growing up, you're— the college script is in your head. Why? Why did you go to Fordham, New York City? Because that, that would have terrified me. Like, even in 2007. Yeah, it was much cheaper.

I could not consider private school. Like, yeah, I was just terrified of debt. So I went to the state school.

[06:51] Myles Snider: So I had two things. One is that I got a good scholarship to Fordham, which partially influenced my decision. But two, I had parents who paid for the rest of college for me. So that was like a major advantage that I had for sure. I really wanted to go to Columbia in New York, so I really wanted to be in New York City. I always like every time I visited from Ohio growing up, I just was fascinated by New York.

I loved it and I was like, that's where I want to be. And so I applied early decision to Columbia. That's like where I really wanted to go, but I didn't get in. And then what's interesting is I got into Georgetown, which was the best school that I got into, but I ultimately decided to go to Fordham because I really wanted to be in New York City and I had that scholarship and things like that. But I think in some ways, like the, the college system, in some ways I look back and I'm like, I should have just gone to Georgetown because if you're going to pay a ton anyway, you probably— the best thing you can do right now is go to like the most prestigious school that you can get into. Because that, you know, that rubber stamp, if you want to call it that, is probably going to open the most doors.

But I didn't have any of that perspective back then, and I really just wanted to be in New York City more than anything. So that's why I ended up choosing Fordham.

[08:05] Paul: What is In Audio We Trust?

[08:10] Myles Snider: How did you find out about that?

[08:11] Paul: Your LinkedIn profile.

[08:13] Myles Snider: Is that on my LinkedIn profile? Yeah. Really interesting. Okay, so when I was in— that's so funny. Okay, so when I was in high school, I was— I still am, but I was really, really into music. And one of my best friends in high school, Seamus, he and I were like the people that other people would always ask for music recommendations and stuff like this.

And so we decided to start a music blog and like this was, you know, like the blog era. Like that's what— it's so different now with social media. I mean, people find out about music via like Spotify and social media in a lot of different ways. But in that era, and it was like a several-year period, it was all about blogs. And so we started a music blog called In Audio We Trust. And yeah, that was like the first— that was my first taste of like any kind of like business or certainly like leveraging the internet in any kind of way.

And it was really interesting. Basically it was like a music blog for, you know, we would do— we would keep track of like new releases. We would interview artists. We ended up even hosting a couple of concerts in Cleveland. Like we brought Mac Miller in from Pittsburgh.

[09:18] Paul: Pretty good for a concert.

[09:19] Myles Snider: Yeah. And we were like high school kids. We were like, juniors in high school, like hosting, you know, like contacting a venue, contacting Mac Miller's people, getting him there for a concert. And yeah. And then so when we went to college, it was like harder to like maintain it because we both went to different colleges and we were both kind of working on different stuff. So we ended up selling the website to another guy who ran it for like a couple of years and then stopped doing it.

[09:43] Paul: Does that experience make more sense now, given your path through your life?

[09:48] Myles Snider: It— yes, in a big way. But the only thing is I'm like, I look back and I'm like, I was so early to sort of like the internet and using that in new creative ways that I wish, I wish I had stayed doing that. Whereas I kind of like I did the blog and then I got so interested in other stuff that I wasn't paying as much attention to sort of like that sphere. But yeah, it makes a lot more sense in hindsight.

[10:12] Paul: What kind of work did you do while in college?

[10:18] Myles Snider: So I got interested in a ton of different stuff. I was really into film. I did some acting, I did some producing. I worked for a documentary film team. I worked for a company that was doing a lot of music videos and commercials and things like that. So that was a big focus throughout most of my college years.

And then around like junior year was when I really started like reigniting my love of cooking. And I wasn't doing anything with that like professionally at the time, but that ended up becoming like a big focus and I kind of became less interested in film and more interested in cooking.

[10:52] Paul: And that's partly inspired by your mother.

[10:55] Myles Snider: Very much so. Yeah. So my mom is like a trained chef. She went to culinary school, grew up eating like incredible food. My mom was always making homemade dinners for our family and like really, really, like high-level stuff that I think I took for granted growing up because it was just normal to have like that much great food around. And I showed a very early interest in cooking, probably more so than any of my siblings.

Like my mom and I would do cooking classes together and I always like really enjoyed it, but never saw it as something that I wanted to like pursue professionally or never even would have been like, oh, that's my biggest passion. But I think going to college and especially when I moved out of the dorms and moved into my first apartment and like really started cooking for myself, that got me a lot more interested in it. And then over the years that grew. But the seed very much came from my mom and like so much of my philosophy around cooking, certainly my love of cooking comes from my mom, but a lot of my philosophy around it and how I approach it and how I approach like seeking out ingredients, like that's all, that all has her written all over it.

[11:59] Paul: So in college, you're an economics major. Did you ever get sucked into maybe I want to be like working in finance?

[12:06] Myles Snider: I was never super drawn to finance specifically. I, I chose economics because I was like, it was getting down to the wire to like have to choose a major. And I was like, I think that is probably a good, like a credible major. You know, I didn't really have— there was not that much thought put into it.

[12:25] Paul: I feel like economics is the greatest major to, like, convince the boomers that you're serious, but secretly everyone at school knows these people have no idea what they want to do.

[12:34] Myles Snider: 100%.

[12:36] Paul: And also, on Paul's side too.

[12:38] Myles Snider: Yeah, no, I think that's definitely true. I mean, I— the primary motivation for choosing that major was that I think I thought other people would take it seriously. And I don't feel like I learned anything particularly interesting in my economics classes that I've like taken away from that. I think a lot of economics is this like weird pseudoscience actually. But the only thing in finance that was appealing to me— so I studied abroad in Argentina my junior year, and when I was there, I met a guy who, who is a co-founder of this very large Bitcoin company called Zappo. And in Argentina, they were like in the midst of this crazy economic crisis and they had these like they had this like government exchange rate and then the black market exchange rate and you would have to go and like take physical cash to go buy pesos and the price changed every day.

And so and there was crazy inflation. And so seeing all that was really interesting. And for that reason, Argentines were very early to like adopt Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. So I became interested in that. And that's what I ended up writing my senior thesis, my senior economics thesis about. And so that angle to finance was really interesting to me.

And there was definitely a while when I came back from studying abroad, when I was writing that thesis, where I thought like, I'll get a job at a crypto company after college. Like, that's, that's what I'll go into. And then ultimately there was kind of two reasons for not wanting to do that. One, the industry was so early, there were not that many jobs available for non-technical people like me. But two, I just started like really riding this cooking wave and I was like, I need to go do something with this.

[14:13] Paul: Was there a moment in Argentina when you started to see, oh, I need to follow this?

[14:19] Myles Snider: Yes. So actually, so I did a homestay in Argentina, like where when you study abroad and you live with a family there. And I lived with, like, my homestay, I was assigned to this woman who lived alone and she was very old. And part of the sort of thing with the homestay was that they were supposed to cook for you. And that was kind of, you know, you're supposed to have dinner with them and you speak in Spanish and all of that. And to be completely honest, this woman was a horrible cook.

And it was brutal. It's not just that I'm picky because I'm not in a lot of ways. She was a terrible cook. And so I was like, I need to start. I was so miserable having so little good food around that I was like, all right, I really need to start cooking more. And that was a big part of the period when I realized I really want to follow this.

I'm super passionate about it.

[15:12] Paul: Did you fire her and take over in the kitchen?

[15:15] Myles Snider: Sort of. Yeah. I mean, I ended up, I ended up—

[15:18] Paul: Must have been some interesting cultural learnings from that.

[15:22] Myles Snider: The, that whole experience was full of interesting cultural learnings doing the homestay. I mean, she, she was a, like a very, very old woman. And I think she was mostly doing it because they gave, they paid them to host someone. I don't think she was particularly interested in like the hosting process. And so she would just like, she would do stuff like she would just like boil a potato and like leave that for me and be like, that's your dinner.

[15:42] Paul: Like, it's like '90s American style.

[15:45] Myles Snider: Yeah, but like not even any meat to go with it. And this is Argentina. Um, so I ended up— I didn't actually cook at her place that much. What I ended up doing is just like, uh, friends who had homestays where they got to like use their kitchen, we would like cook there and stuff like that.

[16:00] Paul: What are— what's one of the most memorable dishes from Argentina that I cooked, or that just— that stands out? What's the first one that popped into your head?

[16:10] Myles Snider: I mean, the, the, like, Argentine cuisine is not super broad, but they have a few things that they do incredibly well. Um, and like, the meal that comes to mind was actually when I went back in 2019. I was doing some work and visiting some friends there, and we did like a classic Argentine asado where we went to this guy's place. He had a spot out, like a country house outside of Buenos Aires, and they set up the grill, you know, wood-fired grill, and we spent all day grilling out, and they were like, all these different cuts of meat and bread and cheese and chimichurri. And then we had, like, you know, dulce de leche for dessert. And it was just like a very classic Argentine meal.

So that one definitely stands out. But I think, like, the first time that, you know, I was down there and I went with friends and we went to, like, an Argentine steakhouse and you get this beautiful wood-fired ribeye with chimichurri and you're drinking Argentine wine and the whole thing costs you, like, $7 or something. Those were very memorable.

[17:08] Paul: So you come back to the US and when do you start plotting a cooking chapter of your life?

[17:15] Myles Snider: I would sometime during my senior year of college and I was like, because I was very actively looking for crypto companies to work for. Like, I remember I even Coinbase was pretty small at the time. They were in San Francisco. I was like, maybe I would, you know, move there. There was some stuff going on in Berlin, but like not that much, and especially not for non-technical people. So I was, I think, getting a little discouraged by that, having that like existential angst of what am I going to do post-college?

And I like slowly but surely this idea that like I should go do something with cooking, it like started small and then just got to the point where I was like this, I absolutely need to do this. And so I was considering different options like going— there's a lot of programs in the United States that you can do, but they're very expensive and a lot of them are very long. And I wasn't ready to commit to like a 4-year Culinary Institute of America type of program. But I spoke Spanish at that point because I had done the full immersion in Argentina. And I've always been fascinated by Mexican food. It's always been my favorite cuisine.

And so I started— I kind of— I forget where this came from, but I got the idea of like, I should look into cooking schools in Mexico, see what's available there. And I ended up finding this cool program that was 6 months long. It was really cheap. And the program was basically like a region-by-region exploration of Mexican cuisine and how to cook it. So it wasn't like classic, like what you would call classical training with culinary school, but it was this very cool, unique program. And it was like the perfect opportunity to be like, okay, I'll take 6 months after I graduate, go do this thing, and then I can come back and get a real job.

[18:54] Paul: What did your parents think of this?

[18:56] Myles Snider: They were very supportive.

[18:57] Paul: That's awesome.

[18:58] Myles Snider: Yeah, which is cool. So two of my siblings took gap years after high school, which I, again, is just something that I wish I had done. And they actually both went to cooking school as well during the gap years. Yeah. They went to a different one. But my parents were very supportive of the idea.

I think especially my mom, because she really saw how passionate I was about cooking. And I think I definitely did think this at the time, but I think my parents also thought this, which was like, this is just 6 months post-college and then he's going to get a real job.

[19:33] Paul: Get it out of your system.

[19:34] Myles Snider: Exactly.

[19:34] Paul: A real job. So cooking in Tulum was not a real job.

[19:39] Myles Snider: It was actually the realest job I've ever had.

[19:41] Paul: Yeah, that sounds pretty intense.

[19:44] Myles Snider: So yeah, so cooking school was like coming to an end and I was trying to decide what I wanted to do and during those like 5 months, I just completely fallen in love with cooking and fallen in love with Mexico. And I was like, there's no way I'm going back yet.

[19:58] Paul: When you say fall in love with cooking, like bring that alive. Like what is that?

[20:04] Myles Snider: Like I throughout my childhood had tried all these things that I was like somewhat passionate about or interested in exploring. And like I tried everything, you know, it's like filmmaking, acting, music, painting, drawing. And it's like there were different degrees of having that thing, like, resonate. But with cooking, it was like this feeling of I finally found the thing. Like, and I don't know if everyone has that where it's like one thing that they're like, this is my thing. But for me, there definitely was.

And it was just so immediately clear with cooking that it was like, okay, this is like this is a thing that I'm both passionate about and really good at and love doing and am endlessly fascinated by, that just the amount of energy that I could dedicate towards that was incredible. And some of the other things that I tried, say filmmaking, it was like I was very intellectually interested in filmmaking and I loved watching movies or music when we were doing the blog, but it's hard when you're like really interested in something but not actually that good at it, which was the case for me for like filmmaking and music. Whereas like with cooking, it was like I knew pretty quickly that I was like, okay, I'm good at this. And so you get that feedback loop of making progress and seeing yourself get better, and that becomes part of the fuel for the fire.

[21:30] Paul: The thing I hear with a lot of people who find something like this is that when they stop doing it, they miss it. For sure, right? This is sort of my relationship with the writing now. Yeah, I took some time off with my daughter who was recently born, and writing was the only thing I really missed.

[21:44] Myles Snider: Interesting.

[21:45] Paul: I do love these conversations, but it's, it's not the same as writing for me. And I think the thing for me is I didn't find this until my 30s, which—

[21:55] Myles Snider: yeah, which is super interesting. I think for a lot of people, a lot of people I meet haven't found it or they found it later. And so I feel lucky that I found it at like 20, 21, 22.

[22:04] Paul: And then when you find it, you sort of are a little crazy compared to the people on the default path because you're willing to basically sacrifice to keep chasing it.

[22:14] Myles Snider: Exactly. Yes, that's, that's definitely a thing. And I think it's hard for some people to understand who don't have something like that where, you know, I think if I didn't have cooking in my life or that passion that I have for cooking, I'd be a lot more willing to compromise or maybe like take this path or that path in the pursuit of, hey, I want to make a little bit more money or I want to live here or that. But like when you have something like that, it's impossible to ignore and you're like, I'm— if I like, if I do ignore it, I'm going to be miserable. And so I have to figure out a way to not.

[22:48] Paul: Another thing I've seen when people find this, and you actually put this into words on another podcast, is that once you find it, you're not in a rush.

[22:57] Myles Snider: Yes.

[22:57] Paul: Because you know you'll keep doing it. Like, I know I will write until I'm old.

[23:03] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[23:03] Paul: So I'm not in a rush for any achievements. I think when we know we're not passionate about something, we have to almost be more in a rush because we need to like get some payoff because we know we'll eventually quit.

[23:15] Myles Snider: Totally. 100%. And I think you see that when people— there's a lot of things that sort of like enter the zeitgeist and they're very clear. They're very clear opportunities, but it's clear that they're like somewhat ephemeral and people will kind of like go all in on those and it's clearly like a rushed thing. Whereas, yeah, it's like I, you know, I want to find ways to make what I'm doing like sustainable and profitable and all that, but I'll never stop doing it no matter what, even if it's not paying me anything. And knowing that I'll— that I'll work on this forever allows you to feel comfortable with this slow but steady trajectory.

And I think some of the stuff that I'm doing that is more quantifiable, say it's building up a newsletter audience or doing Twitter or things like that, we constantly see examples of someone who just takes off with this meteoric growth in one realm or another. And sometimes you see that and you're like, oh man, I wish that could happen for me. But when you take a step back and you realize like you're going to do— like you're comfortable doing this for a really, really long time, that slow and steady growth is actually exactly what you want. And so seeing, seeing like some progress becomes really like fulfilling and motivating because you're like, okay, it's, it's not crazy growth, but it's not negative. And it's like slow and steady up this way for a long time.

[24:41] Paul: Yeah, I've been doing this podcast for 5 and a half years.

[24:44] Myles Snider: Wow.

[24:44] Paul: And it's really only got traction in the last year.

[24:47] Myles Snider: Wow. That's interesting. Yeah.

[24:49] Paul: And I knew from the early, early on, I was like, I'm just going to do this forever.

[24:54] Myles Snider: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so with, with writing, like, describe how that, like, passion comes up for you with writing.

[25:03] Paul: It's my life. This sounds cheesy to say, but like, my life doesn't feel complete without it. Yeah, like it was the only thing I missed. Like, hanging out with my daughter was amazing, but it was like, I need the writing.

[25:17] Myles Snider: Totally.

[25:18] Paul: I wasn't like missing any of the other stuff. And to think of it like, I think these conversations are the same. Yeah, it's just all the other stuff with podcasting I don't love, like the editing. So like, I would just have conversations and not even like publish it.

[25:34] Myles Snider: Yeah. Well, I feel like one of the things that I admire about you the most is that you seem to be pretty ruthless with taking parts of whatever it is, professional life, work, and figuring out like, oh, these are the things I don't like, and then just not, not doing them?

[25:52] Paul: Well, it's not intentional. I'm just lazy. I'm designing it around my— I'm lazy and stubborn. Like, I don't want to do too much work and I'm stubborn, too stubborn to, like, work for other people.

[26:04] Myles Snider: Yeah, but I think I've heard you call yourself lazy before and it's like I don't think of you as late. Like, you, you wrote a book.

[26:11] Paul: Yeah, that's easy for me though. I am lazy in that I can't do work I'm not motivated to do. Other people can do this better than me. Yeah, other people are just like, I'm gonna put my head down and grind for a few months and like really work on this. Like, I, I suck at that so much.

[26:27] Myles Snider: But what I think is interesting about what you do and something that I really admire about, especially in like the last 6 months to a year for you, it seems like, is that and I've been trying to articulate a theory around this, so maybe you can help me. But when you are really authentic, a lot of the traditional, like, marketing rules don't apply. And so, like, you, I think, talked recently about how you didn't, like, plan a big launch around your book. And you see this constantly. Like, I'm working on a course now and there's all these resources of like, here's how I launched an 8-figure course. You got to go through this, this, this, and this.

And like, I see these things and I'm like, that I don't want to do those at all. But you feel like you have to sometimes. But I think with you, what you've shown is with something like your book, the success of that book wasn't contingent upon you following this marketing guru launch plan. It was around you just constantly putting out stuff that people resonate with because you're very genuine and you're not selling them anything in this marketing guru type of way. Does that make sense?

[27:28] Paul: Yeah, I think like marketing matters, I think. Right. Marketing is just sharing things, right? Making people aware of them. I think the challenge is the people most grinding are sharing all the like, here's how to, here's the playbook. And a lot of it's fear-based.

Like a lot of people opt into those in a fear-based way. Yeah, it's like, what if I don't do this? And I had those thoughts with my book. What if I don't promote it? And then I was like, I'll be fine.

[28:00] Myles Snider: Like, I mean, the fear is that you're leaving money on the table, I guess.

[28:03] Paul: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Or I think it's often not money. It's like I'm not doing my best, which is like I'm going to disappoint my parents, teachers, or society. And like, I'm leaving my potential on the table, which is like terrifying for many Americans because we're, we're raised to think like like reaching our potential is the best thing in life. But yeah, it's kind of like a philosophical stand too, which is like, what if I, what if I just like don't do these things that seems like everyone else is doing?

[28:36] Myles Snider: Yeah. And I think that's cool because you've, you've had success without doing them and—

[28:42] Paul: but you're not seeing all the other things that flopped. True. And I'm I would have been totally okay if the book didn't sell.

[28:51] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[28:52] Paul: And I had many other things before that that like got no response or not enough people. I launched a couple cohort-based courses that didn't get enough signups and I just said, you know what, cancel it, refund. Yeah, this is like 2018, 2019. So I've done that enough times to know that I'm just going to keep trying stuff and keep doing things I like doing. Yeah, I think I do have a little fear of success too.

[29:16] Myles Snider: Interesting. Um, like, do you feel like if you become too successful, it almost undermines the message that you're trying to promote?

[29:24] Paul: No, I don't worry about that. I think, I think I left a path where I saw successful people that I was not inspired by and definitely did not want to become. And I was— I saw parts of that in myself becoming those people, and it terrified me.

[29:38] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[29:39] Paul: And I'm scared of becoming those people. And I think I've blindly, like, just categorically associated, like, certain tactics or extreme effort-based approaches to life, um, with that too. And I'm trying to unpair that. I'm still pragmatic. I know what I'm doing. Like, I can, I can tweet a lot.

Like, that's not— that's in the flow of, like, things that feel good for me.

[30:04] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[30:05] Paul: So I can tweet a lot and reshare things people share. I've gifted probably 1,000 books. So anyone that reaches out about my book, I say, do you want me to send you one? I just keep sending people books. And that for me is the marketing that feels, feels good. So maybe that's the question it all comes down to is like, how can I share in a way that feels good?

Podcast conversations are great for me too. So I probably reach out to like 5 people, 5 to 10 people, got ignored by 5, went on 5, and that helped.

[30:33] Myles Snider: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that I, I see what you're saying though, because like in my career, I've always kind of been back and forth between like the tech world, which provided like, you know, gainful employment for me and stability and all of that. And then doing the food stuff, which is I'm far more passionate about and care a lot more about. But it was for a long time, it was really hard to find any way to, to have that bring in any income for me. And what I found at one point was that I was like, I was so focused on trying to turn that into something that made money, and I became so miserable in the process. And that kind of created a fear for me of being— of trying to make money with it at all.

And then there was a period where I was like, this isn't going to be— I'm not going to— I'm not going to monetize this in any way. I'm just going to focus on putting out a body of work I'm proud of and enjoying the process. And then that felt unsustainable too. And so trying to find that like middle ground has— I'm very much still in that process, but it's been kind of interesting.

[31:34] Paul: Yeah, I think that's the same journey I went through with like business and like selling stuff. Yeah. So let's go back to your story. Yeah. Turning the tables here. So you go and I think this is the most interesting thing.

Like if people are listening to this, I think the most interesting thing about your path is how you kept a love of cooking alive. Love of food alive without making it your full identity. Yeah. And I think that's really important because making it your identity often destroys it for people. Yeah.

[32:10] Myles Snider: So, sorry, go ahead.

[32:12] Paul: And you can go on, but like you went to work full-time in Tulum, which I think set the foundations for continuing to love it, but it also became your whole identity at that point.

[32:24] Myles Snider: Yes. And like, so I finished cooking school and I was, I really, I thought I should go work at a restaurant. That's going to be the best way to like really get more experience, really learn more. And so I started reaching out to some restaurants and there's this restaurant in Tulum called Heartwood. The chef had just published a cookbook like Bon Appétit and Food Wine were writing about the restaurant and it's like wood fire, open kitchen, outdoor restaurant tucked into the jungle of Tulum right across from the beach. And I'm like, this is, this looks amazing.

So I cold emailed the chef and I ended up emailing him like 3 times before I got a response. Um, just asking for a job, which is another lesson for people. Every like good job I've gotten came from cold email versus like applying formally to a job. Um, and we can talk about that more.

[33:12] Paul: Well, if you're off the default path, you have to do that.

[33:16] Myles Snider: You have to do that. Yeah. But it's, it's I meet people who are looking for jobs and I tell them to do that. And a lot of people are like, they're like so resistant to it. Like, that's what I can't do that. Like, and so I just encourage people to try that.

But anyway, so he offered me a job. I show up in Tulum and I was like so naive. I'd never worked. I'd worked in restaurants before, but never like a high-level kitchen where it's like, you know, chefs who were, you came up in Michelin-starred New York restaurants take things very seriously, all that. And so it was like just a crash course in the most chaotic, crazy, hardworking work environment I've ever been a part of. Like 14-hour days on your feet all day.

It's very physical labor. Like you're carrying around stockpots and gutting fish and changing fish and all that. And you're working in front of a fire. There was no stoves in the restaurant. There's a wood-fired oven and a wood-fired grill, and we cooked everything on that. And so you're just like, you're sweating all day.

It's so hot because it's outside in addition to having the fire there. And just like the longest hours you can imagine and a crazy environment. You know, it's very, very intense. Like kitchens, especially with chefs sort of brought up in that like Anthony Bourdain Kitchen Confidential style New York kitchen. You know, they're like yelling at you and tension is very high and there's like a level of perfection that's demanded that is like almost impossible to achieve. And so it was just crazy.

And when I first got there, I was like, what have I gotten myself into? This, like, I wanted to quit, but I didn't. And I'm really glad that I didn't. And so, you know, eventually it became this like amazing experience. It was very, very hard work the whole time, but I learned so much. I got so much out of it.

I made like incredible friendships and I wouldn't trade that for anything. But Cooking professionally in that way was like, it was— it took this thing that I loved so much, cooking, which was like creative expression and bringing family and friends together and like, you know, getting to just like follow my interest and turned it into this like very regimented, like professional thing where it's like you're, you're cooking, you know, what the chef tells you to cook. You're cooking it for people whose faces you never see. You know, you don't get to see them like enjoy the plate, nor do you even have any relationship with them at all. And so it did take some of the joy out of cooking. And so when I left Heartwood, I was very much like, how do I figure out, how can I keep cooking in my life in a way that's not going to do that?

And that has been like a question that I've been working on answering and figuring out ways to do that for a very long time.

[35:59] Paul: Do you think experiences like that are vital, like in terms of just intense focused learning?

[36:06] Myles Snider: Yes. I mean, I think that, yes. I mean, I wouldn't trade that for anything. It was one of the most significant experiences of my entire life, and it pushed me so far outside of my comfort zone. And if I had known going into it exactly how hard it was going to be, I think I would've been too intimidated to even do it in the first place almost. So yeah, I just, I think it was like the best thing for me.

And I think there's probably a lot of other ways that people can get experiences like that. But I think having something along those lines, especially that period in your life, is like really life-changing.

[36:43] Paul: What did it teach you about excellence?

[36:46] Myles Snider: Oh my God. So in general, it taught me that like the sort of level that you think you can achieve or like wherever you think your ceiling is in terms of like learning in terms of what you can learn or what you can achieve or the results you can achieve, the ceiling is actually a lot higher than you think it is. And so there were things that I was asked to do that I just thought, I'm like, there's no way I can do that in the timeframe that I'm given to do that. And you do. And so when you encounter those things one after the other and you kind of break through some of these limiting beliefs, if you will, it's really powerful because then you start to gain this, like, incredible confidence in your own abilities.

[37:27] Paul: I sense that is also the key to getting people interested in cooking too. Yeah, I think you're— you unlock this for me because I think two things. One, you have this infectious attitude which is like, anyone can learn to cook, cooking can be easy. But I think people think you need the skills or the dishes or the, the cookware But I think people actually need like a portal in to experience not like the most excellent food possible, but like, oh wow, I just did something slightly beyond what I'm capable of. And this sort of broke my mental model.

[38:05] Myles Snider: 100%. Because I think you have like a lot of people who do cook and you were probably in this category, right? But it's like you were kind of stuck cooking the same things over and over, not really willing to color outside the lines or like experiment with new things. But then in being sort of guided through something that you were like, oh, this is, you know, this is new. I haven't tried it before. I feel a little intimidated by this, but I'm like, you know, go ahead and do it and here's how.

And then you do it and you have that wow moment and you're like, oh, all of a sudden these ideas that I had in the back of my head or these scripts I was telling myself of like, I can't cook or I'm not good at cooking or I can't cook fancy things or I can only cook simple things because I only have this setup. Those go out the door, and then you start— then a whole world opens up where you're like, what else can I do?

[38:54] Paul: Well, these scripts are so strong from the cooking world, and I don't think people realize they're around everything with cooking. I mean, you must have experiences in that world too. There must be extremely strong beliefs about how you rise the ranks in the industry, right?

[39:11] Myles Snider: Yes. Okay, this is something that is— there's so much like gatekeeping in the, in the chef world that is so unnecessary. But it's like you'll hear people be like, well, I went to Noma and I, you know, I had to pick herbs for 2 years and peel potatoes before they even let me do anything. And I'm like, well, you wasted your time. Like, that's not something to be proud of. That's insane that you're going to spend 2 years of your life doing like the lowest level tasks when you know damn well you can do so much more.

And it's this like crazy idea that's in the food world of like, you need to start at the bottom and, you know, it doesn't— like, you need to kind of like put in your time on things that are really not beneficial to you at all, just to sort of like prove that you kind of have the guts to stick it out. So yeah, so that was definitely a big one. And then the other thing is like, for me, I went to this— like, the cooking school program I did was a regional Mexican cuisine exploration. And like, I learned a ton, but I learned about like cool Mexican techniques that are, you know, that are very specific to that cuisine and some of the things that they cook and some of the ingredients that they work with. I did not have any classical training. And in the cooking world, classical training is French training.

It's what they teach at Culinary Institute of America and all that. And so there was like a lot of the chefs that I work with had gone to schools like that. And so they were classically trained. And there's like, you know, words for specific techniques that I had no idea what any of those were. And it made me feel very inferior for a long time, like not knowing stuff that for someone who went through cooking school was very basic. But I think it's actually been really helpful to me because I've been able to approach cooking from a little bit more of like a first principles type of thing.

And like, I do have a very strong technical foundation that I've learned over the years, but I am like ruthless with throwing out any knowledge that I don't think actually like serves me. And there are some stuff like that in the food world.

[41:10] Paul: Yeah, there's almost a parallel with college and like learning a new language and acting in a certain way and then looking down on people who don't have the credential. Yeah, it's— but it just, it just keeps people back. It convinces everyone that you just can't do stuff. And increasingly, like, I think this is a big theme of this podcast is like my message is you can just do things.

[41:34] Myles Snider: Yes, 100%. And like from my perspective with cooking, it's like You— I can absolutely tell you, like, I'm, you know, without bragging, I'm very confident in my cooking abilities, right? I can cook very well. And I didn't go to a classic cooking school. I didn't learn the classical techniques or the, you know, the French training or anything like that. You absolutely can do it without needing to know all those things.

And the best way to do it is really to, like, dive in.

[41:59] Paul: Yeah. And so I basically in a month with your guidance, went from like not knowing what I'm doing to like, holy crap, I just cooked like a really cool meal for my extended family. And I think the key for me was two things. I think getting cookware was actually helpful. So for me, one, one thing was like learning knife skills, learning knife skills and like just how to use like an actual good knife and realizing there are good knives that basically make everything easy. Yeah, that was a couple years ago.

Then like good cookware, um, nonstick pans just suck.

[42:40] Myles Snider: Yeah, they're terrible.

[42:41] Paul: And I didn't know— I didn't realize this until I cooked with stainless steel. I was like, oh, okay, this is different. And then the other thing was like Kenji's cookbook, um, The Food Lab. Yeah. And it broke it down as like food's just science. Yeah, you just changing variables and trying stuff.

And then your attitude of like, just try stuff. Who cares if you screw up? And then I cooked this really stupid pasta dish. Like, it's not even stupid. It's just simple. It's like garlic, olive oil, butter, crushed red pepper, and pasta water.

And it was so simple. I made it like 5 or 6 times. I tried different, different levels of garlic, different times, different salt amounts. And I was like, oh, I'm doing it. Yeah, it's like a kid riding a bike.

[43:30] Myles Snider: Totally.

[43:31] Paul: And then once you're riding the bike, you're just— you can just do all these other things.

[43:35] Myles Snider: Yeah. And I think that like, this is something that I try and tell people a lot of— exactly, you said like, just go out there and do it. Because first of all, forget any preconceived notions you have about your ability to cook or how hard cooking is. Anybody can learn to cook, 100%. Um, two, The rules that you think you have to follow there, I can give you an example of someone breaking those rules. I can give you a ton of examples of people breaking those rules.

There are so many things about cooking are way more flexible than people think. The amount of time that you leave something in the oven or on the stove, the heat levels that you use, the specific ingredients that you use, the type of cookware that you use. Like, none of that— you don't have to stick to a script for that. It's all super, super adaptable. Fatal mistakes, like mistakes that truly ruin a meal, are so much more rare than you think they are. And even mistake, even smaller mistakes, as long as you're paying attention, and I— this is the most important thing with cooking, you— is like presence.

You have to be paying attention to what's happening because you are using your senses to guide you towards the outcome that you want, and that can only happen when you're paying close attention. But But if you're paying attention and something goes wrong, then it becomes a data point that, that you now know going in the future and you've actually improved your cooking even though you did something wrong. And so like I used to get very frustrated when things would go wrong with cooking and like right now I'm really diving into sourdough baking and it's like very beginner's mindset for me because sourdough baking is like hard and there's a lot of nuances, and I'm just kind of learning things for the first time, and I'm making a lot of those mistakes.

But rather than being like super frustrated when something goes wrong, it's— I've been just really making sure to like pay attention to what happened, figure out why it went wrong, and then have that going forward.

[45:28] Paul: It's almost the way we're raised. We're taught we're supposed to get like a perfect score, perfect grade, get into these things, get approved, get accepted. And it's like things like cooking, you should be making mistakes all the time. That is success.

[45:40] Myles Snider: And I make mistakes all the time. You know, like I've been cooking for so many years and when I try new things, like it's very common and it's going to happen, but like it's very rare for it to ruin a meal.

[45:52] Paul: Yeah. And you have this— you just have such a light approach to like it. I feel like it's just like cooking for like the average man.

[46:05] Myles Snider: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that If you, if like I'm trying to get more people in the door, you know, because I think that like to get people to a point where they can cook and feel confident and do it enjoyably and like share it with family and friends, like, and you're a great case study in this. It's not that hard. You can get a lot of people there. And so I'm trying to just get more people from feeling like intimidated by cooking to feeling confident with it. But there's going to be a certain percentage of those people who really resonate with cooking and want to go to the next level.

And there's so many ways to do that. And there's like, you can spend the rest of your life exploring cooking. That's something that I plan to do. But, um, but yeah, I think for at least the approach that I'm kind of like casting the widest net with, it's really about like, let's just get as many people as possible to the point where they have the basic skills needed to like feed themselves and feed their family and have a new hobby and creative process.

[46:58] Paul: I think what it did for me is that, and I've probably plateaued, but I took such a big leap that I'm I feel really good about it. And it's like, I probably want to go deeper with this sometime in the future, but it's like, fine if I don't for now. What are some of your favorite dishes to get people in— into cooking?

[47:18] Myles Snider: Yeah, well, it's funny because I've been, I've been working on this cohort course that I'm doing and I'm thinking about some of the dishes that I want to do. And so I think recently I've thought a lot about like, what are sort of technique-driven dishes? That are really customizable because I think that's really the best way to get someone in. It's like you show them how to make something specific, but in the process you're saying like, this is, this is a technique that can be applied to other things. So a good example is I wrote a Substack article called like, I think I called that a simple technique for braised meat.

[47:50] Paul: And I know you made this dish, but I've made braised beef probably 12 times already.

[47:55] Myles Snider: Amazing. Because it's really simple.

[47:57] Paul: It is. And you can mix it up in different subtle ways.

[48:00] Myles Snider: Totally. So it's like, what is the technique? The technique is you take a cut of meat, you sear it, and then you mostly cover it in broth and you slow cook it till it's like pull-apart tender. Within that, there's so many different things you could do with regards to like what cut of meat you choose, what type of meat you choose, what flavorings you add to it. Once you finish the braise, whether that goes into a taco or a rice bowl or a sandwich or on top of pasta, And so it's like I taught you with, I think I said use like a chuck roast and kind of like these ingredients and all of that. But now you have that technique down and you could say, okay, I want a sort of more Asian flavor profile for this and figure out how to adjust it.

So dishes like that, I think, are really powerful ways to get someone in because you teach them a dish, but you also teach them like 1,000 dishes in some sense because they have that technique to start from.

[48:53] Paul: How do you think about balancing enjoyment of a meal? And I sort of know where you're going to go with this versus like eating the highest quality ingredients.

[49:03] Myles Snider: I think they're one and the same.

[49:05] Paul: Yeah. So what I'm saying is I think one thing I picked up from you is like, just enjoy eating with friends and like, oh, yes, don't stress too much about—

[49:18] Myles Snider: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. So I definitely, like, I'm really maniacal about, like, food sourcing and quality because I do think that's the way you make your food taste the best. And there's a bunch of reasons why that's, like, the way to go. But with that, what I've talked about a lot is, like, I think when it comes to health, there's this often ignored aspect of sort of, like, enjoyment and, like, the social aspect. And so I think the tweet that I had about it was, like, I genuinely believe that eating pizza with a bunch of your friends is healthier for you than like eating grilled chicken and broccoli at your desk at your job.

And I just think that there's an aspect to it that it's like when you eat something, if you're like outside and you have a bunch of friends around you and it's a bunch of people you love and you're really enjoying yourself and you're not stressed out and you're not in a rush, like the stuff you eat nourishes you more than the quote unquote like healthiest macros in a different environment. And I like people who are super hardcore, like, you know, show me the science are probably never going to agree with that because I don't think there's a way to prove it. But I really do believe that that's the case.

[50:28] Paul: I bet things like this, like the science always comes out like 20 years, 20 years later, it's going to happen. Yeah. I think the interesting thing is, too, you went through a similar experience to me. I had a ton of health issues. You had a parasite in Mexico, which, funny enough, I also had a parasite in Mexico. It was like a month of hell and then months of recovery.

But, um, I had already had some chronic health issues about 10 years ago, and I became obsessive around food. You get into these diets, and basically you do this because you're willing to do anything to feel good again.

[51:02] Myles Snider: Yeah, you're desperate.

[51:03] Paul: Um, but at a certain point it's like, okay, I'm just sort of obsessed and like, I'm so stressed out. This can't be good for me. I need to like loosen up. I need to eat what my friends are eating when I'm out with them. Yeah. So talk to me about dealing with the parasite and then trying to like evolve your relationship with the food.

[51:25] Myles Snider: Yeah. And it's— I had a very similar thing. So I got this parasite right before I left Mexico, like a week before. And it was like, it was like 24 to 48 hours of the most extreme food poisoning I'd ever had. And then just not getting better. Whereas for weeks after that, I was just like, I had brain fog and I was sluggish and my stomach hurt.

And then that kind of just continued for months. And it eventually got to the point where I was just really, really miserable. I felt like I was living life at 60%. I remember because when I left Mexico, I was living in LA after that, and I would go to work, I would come home from work at 5:00 PM, I would fall asleep. I would sleep until— there were times when I slept until the next morning and then woke up and still just didn't feel well rested. Anytime I ate, I was bloated and I felt terrible.

And so I, like you, became very— I did, I think, 9 months of autoimmune paleo is what they call it.

[52:28] Paul: So like, it's kind of what I did.

[52:30] Myles Snider: Yeah. Like basically very hardcore paleo, but like no dairy, no coffee, no alcohol. You know, it was like a hardcore elimination diet. And I think that that definitely helped and maybe was necessary at the time given what I had. But I eventually was able to like treat this parasite and like largely get rid of it. But it still took a while after that to the point where I felt comfortable eating certain things.

And I think that there were times when I would eat something and my stomach would feel terrible. I'd be all bloated. And I later realized it wasn't the 2 bites of sourdough bread that made me feel awful because of the gluten, which is what I was telling myself. It was the fact that I was so stressed out about that that I, one, didn't even enjoy it in the first place, and two, just kept thinking about it afterwards. And once I was really able to let go of those, and that was like a process that A lot of that came from exploring some cool people in the realm of psychosomatic medicine and really learning about the mind-body interaction and how much what we think about things can affect the physical response that we get. And once I was able to completely let those go, it was so freeing because now I literally eat whatever I want.

I prioritize really high quality food because that makes me feel the best. But there's like nothing that's off limits.

[53:55] Paul: And what are your— what are some of your favorite— like, if you were to give people, here are 4 or 5 ingredients that you can immediately increase your quality, what would they be?

[54:07] Myles Snider: So I think that when you cook, salt and oil are going to touch basically everything that you cook. So I think that's a really good place to start because that's going to be the stuff that you use the most. So I use a company called Redmond that basically all salt comes from the ocean, but most salt you buy comes from like modern oceans, which are very polluted. They've found like microplastics in salt and things like that. But there's also these like salt mines from ancient oceans that are like untouched and very— they don't have any microplastics and they're a lot cleaner. So Redmond is one of those.

So that's what I use for my like everyday salt. And then oil across the board, like olive oil, get organic, high-quality stuff. I would say I mostly cook with like olive oil, ghee, beef tallow, and butter. And all of those are things that I think you should prioritize the top quality for a bunch of reasons. Like with olive oil, you know, if olives get sprayed with pesticides, they basically like absorb everything. And then when they get pressed, You know, the fat comes out and like fat-soluble chemicals are just going to be— you're going to be having that in olive oil.

But also you're going to get better tasting olive oil with all those. And so I think salt and oil are the best places to start. And then I would also say for like, look for really good sources of meat, ideally locally if you can. But also there's like so many good places now where you can get frozen online, really high quality meat, and then try and buy more like seasonal vegetables because they're going to taste a lot better. They're going to be more nutrient dense and they're going to be healthier for you.

[55:49] Paul: It seems that the time in which I grew up, '90s US, was like the lowest point in human history for like thinking about food. Like what you just described makes so much sense now. And like we eat tons of butter now and oil and salt. When I grew up, like, butter was bad for you. We were eating margarine with trans fat.

[56:09] Myles Snider: Vegetable oil instead of olive oil, right?

[56:11] Paul: Vegetable oil or canola oil instead of olive oil because you're trying to avoid saturated fats, I think, which has like been debunked. Yeah. And then also like salt raises your blood pressure, which is like not true. I've went and read the studies. It basically— they've— they have a conclusive study where it's raised blood pressure by 1%.

[56:32] Myles Snider: Interesting. Um, cholesterol with eggs, that's the other one that's been debunked, but people still hang on to that, right?

[56:38] Paul: Well, that was fascinating for me too, and I'll try to link up some of the good resources I have on this. But, um, eating dietary cholesterol does not raise cholesterol. Eating crappy stuff you put in your body raises cholesterol, which was— is just like, we, we should have named these things differently.

[56:57] Myles Snider: I know. I know. I mean, I think that there's so many examples throughout history of things that were thought to be healthy that have later been debunked. And so anything that feels too cutting edge in the health world, I just ignore. And I focus on things that are proven over time. I think the basics, it's like, eat good quality food, move your body, get outside, get fresh air, get sunlight, and have a good community around you.

If there's 5 pillars, I think those are them. And if you stick to those, I think you'll be super resilient even in the face of other things in your life maybe not being optimized. But I find that there's a lot of people who are, they're kind of like health nerds. And so they get really excited about the latest studies showing this and that, and they end up kind of concentrating on the micro at the expense of the macro.

[57:52] Paul: Yeah, I think I got really caught up in that stuff and I realized eventually it's— you just have to trust your intuition and actually just feel what your body's feeling. Like, giving up dairy for me was a huge win, and I don't use almond milk because it's like some trend. It's just like, oh, I tried it and I feel better.

[58:11] Myles Snider: Totally. Yeah.

[58:13] Paul: And like, that's all I'm trying to do. And it seems like your whole sort of food worldview you could boil down to intuitive eating?

[58:20] Myles Snider: Yes. Intuitive eating and intuitive cooking. Yeah. I think that, yeah, it's like the— I think it's way more simple across the board when it comes to both eating and cooking than people give it credit for. And in some ways there's more money to be made in complicating it than there is in simplifying it. And that probably goes for other things as well.

But there's almost like people are given a story about how complicated these things are in order to have to pay other people to like navigate that complication for them when you can really do it yourself.

[58:56] Paul: Well, this goes back to our earlier discussion when you were asking me like, how do you not do these bold launches? And like, I have some impressive credentials. Listeners probably know. You do too. You worked at a Michelin-star restaurant. I've never—

[59:13] Myles Snider: Heartwood was not Michelin-starred.

[59:14] Paul: Or you worked for— the chef had.

[59:17] Myles Snider: Yeah, she had been.

[59:18] Paul: Yeah. But like, you could easily sort of like— if you could easily have your website, like, worked for this famous chef, like this lineage, and like try to lead with your credentials. But instead you lead with like your energy and your curiosity.

[59:32] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[59:32] Paul: Which I think is a choice a lot of people don't know exists for them. And it kind of relates to your current journey now, like you You actually made an attempt at trying to make money from this that wasn't directly related to a food career, which was starting a spice brand.

[59:47] Myles Snider: Yes.

[59:48] Paul: But you sort of burned out from that.

[59:51] Myles Snider: Yeah. I mean, like, I burned out. The company failed. Like, it was— and I'm kind of glad it did because I don't want to— I don't want to be running that company now. I'm like, I feel what I'm doing now is a lot more aligned. But, but yeah, that was like Well, sorry, I want to let you finish the point.

[01:00:08] Paul: Yeah, no, keep going with that.

[01:00:10] Myles Snider: Yeah. So, I mean, I started this spice company because I had this idea that I was like, I really want to be doing something in food. I want to be kind of like spreading this message that I really care about, that more people should be cooking at home. And so I kind of like was trying to figure out what's a product that I could sell that is like kind of fits in with that. And I came up with this idea of spice blends because they're a very like easy way for people to add more flavor to what they're cooking at home. And it was sort of like, you know, if you're cooking the same thing over and over, but you bring in a new set of spice blends, you can really like change it up and it's really low effort.

It doesn't require you to have this like extra knowledge. And so I thought that was a really cool like product to take that route. And the product we created, I did this with my brother. I'm really like proud of. They were really good spice blends. People still sometimes ask me if I have any like more of them.

Um, but the thing that it was like, I think the reason I did that was because I knew a lot of people who had done e-commerce stuff and I was just like, oh, that's, you know, that's like a route that you can take to like build a business and, you know, make money doing something like this. And in hindsight, I've realized I have zero desire to run an e-commerce company. I don't want to run a direct-to-consumer company. Like, Most—

[01:01:27] Paul: You don't want to be running supply chain models.

[01:01:30] Myles Snider: That— Yeah, exactly. Like, I thought it was, I thought it was going to be a lot different than it was. Most of your time is spent like doing backend stuff on Shopify and thinking about like customer acquisition costs and lifetime value and things that I'm like, I like tune out when I hear that kind of stuff. And so I kind of found my way into doing something that was stuff that was more like solo creator type of stuff. And I'm like, so happy I did because this stuff feels just way more aligned. And it's like the— with the company was called Mother Tongue, the spice company.

And it's like it was such a grind and felt so sluggish at a lot of times, whereas like what I do now just flows.

[01:02:13] Paul: Yeah. And I think this, this— I think I didn't understand this at the time, but I think this is why my book succeeded. Because I had been writing about work for fun, for free, for years and having one-on-one conversations with people and literally just spending all my free time doing it for fun. It was delightful. I talked to hundreds of people, and when I launched my book, those hundreds of people were like, I can't wait to finally support this person that has weirdly been doing it and not asking for money for years. Yeah.

And I think you're experiencing a similar thing now. And I mean, this is why I'm able to not worry about maximizing every opportunity, because I think the world is shifting in favor of people who are leading with curiosity first and sort of building a brand around that. I'm not like trying to be a personal brand. I'm just trying to like share my curiosity with the world.

[01:03:10] Myles Snider: Yeah.

[01:03:10] Paul: Which is infectious in a world where not many people are doing that.

[01:03:14] Myles Snider: It's— yeah, it's super infectious. And I think that if you spend a lot of time like genuinely trying to provide value for people. And if you do provide value for them, you do reach a point where people, like, they really want to spend money with you, which was something like, I've only kind of learned this recently when I started doing like coaching and classes and things like that. And I would put it out there and like, you know, people would respond or they'd buy a ticket or whatever. And that, it's like, it almost still feels surreal, but I also realized I've been at this for a couple of years now. I've been really consistent.

I've been putting out a ton of free content. I've been really trying hard to share what I know and share that with people in an approachable way. And turns out there's a lot of people who've gotten value from that and people are like, they want to turn around and support that. And so I'm working on this course now and I've gotten some really good feedback and a lot of people who have expressed a lot of interest in it. And I'm like, that's amazing, you know? But it took a long time of sort of like doing that for free without expectation of sort of like monetary gain for it to get to that point.

[01:04:21] Paul: Yeah. And as a data point, you sent out this email about olive oil and I just bought it without even thinking about it because I had been reading your newsletter for a while and it's like, well, if Miles thinks this is an awesome olive oil and he's freaking out about it and He didn't even have like an affiliate link. It's like, it must be amazing. Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah. So that, yeah, that kind of trust is so powerful.

It's sort of this hidden permission. It's hard for other people to experience. Like, you can sense it when you're doing these things, but it's hard to see from the outside.

[01:04:55] Myles Snider: Yes. And I do think that like trust is such an important part of it because, and this gets— it is touching on another few points that we talked about, but it's like that slow and steady growth is like, that's how you build trust over time, you know? And I think that you see a lot of people online who are like creators, but it's very like hype-driven or, um, you know, you, what they're sharing doesn't feel like genuine to them. And a lot of times those are the same people who experience this like really rapid growth because they have like, you know, some threads that go viral or whatever. But so these people have these like huge audiences if you just quantify it in terms of number of followers. But I don't think they have trust.

And so my guess would be if a lot of those people tried to say recommend a product or turn around and sell something, very few of those people who are following them are going to be interested and are going to actually purchase it. Whereas like I think that I've seen examples of people who have followings online that if you just quantify them by number of followers are not that impressive, but they've built such a high trust audience with kind of specific areas of interest that they're able to monetize that in really impressive ways.

[01:06:12] Paul: Yeah, I would guess your audience is much more valuable than somebody with a few hundred thousand followers sharing like, here are the 10, 10 ways to leverage AI tools to make $100,000.

[01:06:25] Myles Snider: Exactly. And I believe that too. And I think that people— I didn't understand that as a reality until I was like very deep in the creator world and kind of like doing my own thing. But I think that's important for people who are kind of just starting to share online to know is it's like the, the value of an audience is not just a number that's based on how many people are following you or subscribe to your newsletter. There are like unquantifiable parts of that value that are based a lot more around like trust and expertise and things like that. So you don't, I think, need this like massive audience to, to be successful.

You should really aim to build like a high trust audience who, yeah, feels like they're like learning from you over time.

[01:07:13] Paul: So how are you thinking about your path now?

[01:07:16] Myles Snider: I think that I don't know for sure, but I feel like I'm launching this course this summer. It's a cohort course. And I thought a lot, and I talked to you a lot about this, of different ways to kind of do this. But I ultimately landed on a cohort course because I really do believe that that's the best way to produce real outcomes for a group of people rather than to just do something that's self-paced, especially for cooking. I think there's a lot of just that feedback and that ability to have someone who's going to answer your questions and all of that. So I'm pouring a lot of time and energy into this course and like I've become fascinated by almost like meta-learning and thinking about like how can I really create great outcomes for people and really like get them from a place where they don't feel confident cooking to a place where they do.

And so there's a lot of other opportunities and things that I could do, but I've, I've tried to focus on just, just think about this for now, you know? Like, I have an idea for a book that I think could be really cool. I would love to, like, have a podcast where I talk to other chefs or things like that, but I'm really ignoring those for now to just focus on doing this one thing really well. And I feel very confident that I could— that I have sort of like the skill set to make something that's like, you know, the best online cooking experience cohort course for sure. And so I'm really just focused on exploring that and seeing, seeing where that goes and then kind of like running it, getting some feedback and iterating on it.

Certainly the goal there is to make money, but it's to make money so that I can really like focus more of my time and effort on this stuff because I plan to do this for the rest of my life. Truly, I think I would spend the rest of my life doing things that help people learn how to cook because I've run through this exercise where you think about, okay, if I sold the company and I had $20 million in the bank, what would I do? Not a ton about my life would change. There's certain things that I'd do differently, but I would still want to do this because I love it so much and I care about it and it gives me meaning. And it's more meaningful to me to do this than to just sit on a beach somewhere and and not do anything, but I want to make it work financially, make it sustainable, and make it so that I can, like, pour as much energy as possible into this.

So that's kind of where I am on the path right now and trying to figure out, you know, how I can do that, if I can do that, and what it might look like if I do.

[01:09:55] Paul: What does slow cooking mean to you?

[01:09:57] Myles Snider: Slow cooking is— I think for me it's the idea of like Putting my phone away, taking a few minutes to clean up my kitchen so that the feng shui is nice, you know, prepping out my stuff in advance, something we call mise en place in the food world, so that everything's organized, putting on a really good album in the background, my phone's in the other room, and tapping into the present moment with cooking and having this amazing sensory experience. It's like you are using your hands. It's tactile. You get these like sights and sounds and scents and tastes. And it's, it's a really beautiful process. And I don't cook like this all the time, but when I get the chance to and like really take my time and take it very slowly and enjoy it, those are like the most enjoyable like cooking sessions that I have.

[01:10:57] Paul: It seems like it's your contemplative practice.

[01:11:00] Myles Snider: Very much so.

[01:11:01] Paul: Have you had any realizations through cooking about your life?

[01:11:05] Myles Snider: Hmm. I think that— that's a good question. I mean, I think the thing that comes up for me is just like when I am able to do something like I just described, I've realized that there's almost nothing that I enjoy more. And so really finding ways to like maximize the amount of time spent doing that is something that I think has shaped some of the choices that I've made.

[01:11:25] Paul: Do you have any PATH role models?

[01:11:28] Myles Snider: You? Yeah. Let me think about this a little bit more. So one of the chefs who is most inspiring to me is this guy Danny Bowen. And he has a restaurant called Mission Chinese Food that started in San Francisco. And I went to that restaurant when I was like, I must have been in college, but this was before I had really gotten into cooking.

And it was one of the first meals I had that, like, blew me away in terms of just, like, the flavors and the creativity. And I had the chicken wing. I went there alone because I'd read about it and I was like, this sounds cool. And I had— he has these famous chicken wings that are just amazing. And it's like Szechuan peppercorns. So that, like, spicy numbing tingle.

And then the main course that I had was squid ink noodles with lamb and yogurt sauce and herbs. And it was like this crazy combination that was super creative. The flavors were really loud. And it was like one of the first meals I kind of remember that had me thinking like, wow, being a chef is like super cool. Extremely memorable meal for me. So then when I was working at Heartwood, he published his cookbook and I read that while I was there and like his story really inspired me.

He, He was adopted. He was born in Korea, adopted by white parents, raised in Oklahoma, then went out to San Francisco. And he talked a lot in the book about his early experiences at restaurants and how hard it was and getting hazed and all this stuff. And when I was going through a really hard time starting off at Heartwood, it was really nice to read about that and find some shared experience there. And he has just been someone who's always kind of marched to the beat of his own drum. He's super creative, super, uh, thinks very differently.

His food doesn't follow a lot of rules. It's really like loud and has these like very strong flavors, which is something I really resonate with. Um, and he just like, he kind of does his own thing. Um, recently he wrote a book all about like vegan cooking. I don't even think he's a vegan. I just think it's like a cool way of, uh, him getting more creative in the kitchen.

And so, like, within the food world, he's always been someone I've admired very heavily. And yeah, I really hope that I get to, like, meet him and chat with him one day.

[01:13:54] Paul: Do you think cooking is art?

[01:13:57] Myles Snider: Yes. And this is actually something that you, because you had mentioned this sort of cooking as science approach that, like, I'd recommended J. Kenji López-Alt's book The Food Lab to you, which I think is a really great resource for anyone who wants to get started with cooking.

[01:14:11] Paul: Especially, like, engineering minds like myself.

[01:14:13] Myles Snider: Totally. Because I've actually found that as well. When someone's like, hey, I want to learn how to cook, their personality factors into it too. There's some people for whom the very science-y approach is going to work, and there's some people for whom a different approach is going to work. Overall though, I believe that cooking is an art, but it's an art for which understanding the science behind it helps you be more creative. So I think it's a really good foundation to have to understand the science of what's going on.

But the truth is, Humans have been cooking for far longer than we have had the scientific method or had the tools to measure things precisely or know exactly what was going on. For most of human history, cooking was a process that was guided by intuition, and to me, that's more like on the art side. And then the final thing is that I think sometimes when people are too science-y in their approach to cooking, there's a lack of like soul that comes through in their food. And so like some of the best chefs, the ones who I admire most, people like Danny Bowen, people like Francis Malman, who's famous for his open fire cooking, Chris Bianco, who's this like famous wood-fired pizza chef. They're like, those guys aren't scientists, they're artists, you know? And their cooking is so soulful.

And there's something that comes through in that type of food that I can't quite identify. I can't explain it. I can't quite put my finger on it. But it doesn't come through when you're just thinking about the science.

[01:15:42] Paul: So J. Kenji Alt's The Food Lab was a great on-ramp for me. Yeah. Also read Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat.

[01:15:49] Myles Snider: Yep.

[01:15:50] Paul: I couldn't get into that book. Interesting. But the other— The Food Lab was amazing for me. What are some other on-ramps for people you've sort of prescribed?

[01:16:00] Myles Snider: So there's an amazing book called Six Seasons by Joshua McFadden. He's a chef and a farmer. So he has this like incredible knowledge of vegetables. He breaks down the year into 6 different seasons and it's kind of like this encyclopedia where he talks about or he has, you know, sections on each vegetable that you can find in that season. And then he tells you about like how to source it, how to prep it, and then gives you some recipes for how to cook it. So that's a really cool on-ramp because I think it allows people to feel comfortable going to the farmer's market, finding something that's in season and buying it without knowing how to cook it.

Because then they can go to that book, learn about it, and find some recipes to do it. So that's a really good on-ramp. There's a book called Flavor by Yotam Ottolenghi, who's a famous chef and recipe developer in London, and he's written a ton of cookbooks, all of which are very good. His recipes are like very well-tested and reliable. But this one was in some ways like the culmination of a lot of his knowledge because he talks about a more like theoretical approach to how you build and develop flavor in food. And so he talks about like the three, I think he calls it the three P's, is like produce, process, and pairing.

So produce is like what you buy, you know, it's like the vegetable or the meat or whatever. Process is how you cook it. So whether you boil it, roast it, blanch it, steam it, whatever. And then pairing is the things that, you know, the other things that you add to it. Either just as additions or to balance out existing flavors within it. And I think that's a really cool framework that is a little bit more like high level and allows— it gives people some of those like meta cooking skills that I think some of those other books do as well.