#162 Money, Work, Parenting & 1 Month In Taiwan - Angie & Paul on money scripts, cultural differences, being Taiwanese in the US, being American in Taiwan, perceptions of work in their families, life with a newborn, impostor syndrome, remote work and travel

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Hello and welcome to a special edition of The Pathless Path podcast from Taiwan.

[01:17] Angie: Ta-da! We're here currently in a pocket studio in Taipei.

[01:21] Paul: So you titled the Google Doc for this Power Couples podcast. Talk to me about that. What does power couple mean to you? You can look at me. You don't have to look at the camera.

[01:35] Angie: But this is how power couple look. No, I'm just kidding. No, it was just for fun. I don't think we're a power couple.

[01:42] Paul: What does power couple mean to you?

[01:44] Angie: Power couple means that we are both living with authenticity means that we're both trying to live the most alive version of ourselves instead of giving up and negotiating with suboptimal.

[02:00] Paul: That's interesting. My idea of power couple is like two full-time working executives.

[02:07] Angie: All right, so now we're going to— today in this episode, we're going to talk about our money insecurity, or mainly my money insecurity.

[02:15] Paul: What does that have to do with—

[02:17] Angie: That's what I'm talking about. Executives equals money equals power. But I want to redefine power.

[02:24] Paul: All right. So today's itinerary topics we're going to go through, we're going to talk about work, how we've started thinking about that and integrating it into our lives 6 months into parenthood. We're going to talk about Taiwan. We've been here for about a month now. We're also going to talk about the question of where to live, where to spend our time, and how we're thinking about that. We're going to try to talk about money, and that will probably come up when we're talking about work, and also try to integrate some things of celebrating successes for the other people at the end.

[03:00] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[03:00] Paul: Does that sound good? Anything you want to add?

[03:03] Angie: Sounds good to me.

[03:04] Paul: All right, sounds good. So First thing, work. How are we thinking about work? I think it'd be interesting just to start with like, what is your perception of how I think about work? It's like everything I write about, but what is work for me?

[03:26] Angie: I think before we go into this conversation, it's just easier for me to point out that I am super insecure talking about this problem. This question with you right now.

[03:34] Paul: Nice, I get you. I get—

[03:36] Angie: oh, thanks, Johasson. Without you, I would not want to go into this conversation. I think for my understanding of how you think about work before was that work has two parts. The paid work you do before the book exists is excruciating for you, like something you have to make you something you have to devote your time to, something you don't really enjoy that much in order to exchange for income. But now I think after the book sales, my perception of how you feel about work is you love most of the work you do. But I think I can still see you turn on a different mode of working or a different mode of existing when you are working on your writing stuff, The Pathless Path stuff, versus when you're working on your strategy stuff.

[04:28] Paul: Yeah, that's about right. That's pretty fun. I think I knew you thought this, but I think it's hard to convey that you can like everything you do to someone that's still trying to like find that. Does that make sense? Are you still searching for that?

[04:51] Angie: Like I told you before, I don't think there is such thing called call a dream job or dream work. Because I think for me, no matter how much I love one thing, as long as it comes to money-making stuff, it's all pain. So it would just all stain everything I do, like my quote-unquote passion, my love for art, my love for writing and stuff. And so did I answer your question?

[05:19] Paul: Yeah, yeah, I think that's helpful context. And we can just jump into the money stuff. So What are some of the money scripts you grew up with? Because it seems like the money script there is like money equals bad.

[05:31] Angie: Um, I can talk about my money script, but I also want to acknowledge the fact that even though I grew up with a script, I do have a different choice of making my life. But my money script, my dad used to tell me that we are not the kind of people who can get very rich through entrepreneurship. We are not the kind of people who can get rich, who can earn money without putting the hard work. So we just need to put our head down doing hard work. And we have this weird thing where my family loves traveling abroad, um, and my mom's strategy of traveling abroad is we save every single dollar and cents possible in daily life so we can spend like a king when we go abroad. So we will— if I want to buy a boba tea that costs 75 cents, my mom will be like, don't spend 25 cents on a boba tea, think about how much money you can save over the long term if we go so we can go abroad.

And then we go, when we go travel, but we just casually drop hundreds of US dollars because we saved those money from the boba tea, which does not make sense at all. So I think there is a weird mentality of If it's in terms— oh my God, I suddenly found out something about myself. If it's in terms of something you like, go on Hinge and spending money for that. For me now, it's like learning, self-improvement stuff. And for some like material stuff, especially daily needs, be as cheap as possible and save as much as possible. And then every extra single dollar that not necessarily to be spent on that certain object, you should be guilty about it and you should blame yourself.

You should feel shame about spending that money.

[07:20] Paul: So you internalize only the save money script but not the spend lavishly? And I think you like spending on travel, but maybe not spending on like an expensive hotel, right?

[07:31] Angie: So no, I think I do both. So I will be like, I would be calculating unreasonably. So say, okay, if we spend this much, say we spend $1,000 extra more dollar on Airbnb, then that would be start converting. Oh my God, for this $1,000, I could, I could be using it for 10 sessions of personal training, or I can use it for like 20 sessions of physical therapy, or like 20 sessions of art class. So suddenly that amount of money equals 100 different other stuff that I can do. And so I would be like, no, let's just like live in the cheapest place possible and just like live like a dumb so we can do other stuff.

[08:17] Paul: Yeah. So how this ties back to work, like how does the money tie to work for you? So money is something. So you grew up with this idea that you can't make money. You just have to put your head down and earn whatever is given to you. And then you have to save as much as possible for the things you like, but you just internalize the script of save on everything as much as possible.

[08:50] Angie: But when in terms of online course, I just keep buying it. I think it's interesting.

[08:55] Paul: So like, so how can you spend $1,000 on an online course and you struggle to spend $5 more?

[09:03] Angie: So I always, I always told Paul, 'Oh, this is a good investment.' And probably you should be rethinking. Have you read— ever have you finished Ramit Sethi's book? This is not investment. You should redo your finance. Okay, I will be like, 'This is an investment. If I get more confident, if I get over my shame, then I will be a badass entrepreneur, and then we can earn millions of dollars,' which never happened because I bought online course and I feel like I finished online course, which I never opened.

I never really opened the course. And I think another thing that you touch on is very interesting. The other day we were having a very silly conversation, which for me is not silly at all because I'm a worst-case scenario person. So I'm always thinking like, okay, if today I become a single mother, then I am able to take on any job I can think of to raise my daughter. Like, I can wash dishes in a restaurant. I can hand— I can like be the person that hand out— do like hand out information on the streets, or I can like scrub the floor.

I'll do whatever I can to raise Michelle. And then I think you got so shocked. You're not even thinking about that level of work. You're thinking like, don't you dare to think about taking a $15 or $20 hourly rate job. You better think about like how to make more money to raise Michelle. And I was like, I wasn't even thinking about it.

I'm just thinking like I can wash dishes in a restaurant.

[10:25] Paul: Well, I think this is like one big difference between us. Like, I am very good at aiming at an ambiguous long-term vision. Just put my head down in the short term and just like work on stuff. My constraint is I don't— I only work on things I'm excited about. So I like Strategy U stuff and some of the consulting I do less than Boundless, but it is far superior. Like the total collection of activities I'm doing is so delightful and enjoyable.

Like, incredible. Like, I'm already living my dream life.

[11:01] Angie: So this is some— this is new information for me until like—

[11:06] Paul: Did you read my book?

[11:08] Angie: I do, but I think I need to refresh. So we're talking about how we spend our time in Taipei, which we'll go into detail later. But every time you go out to coffee shop to work, I have this extreme amount of guilt. I was like, oh my God, this is a daddy goes to work, mommy stay home taking care of the kids situation. And like, how I cannot imagine. I feel my heart breaks when Paul has to leave the house and say goodbye to Michelle.

He must have wanted to stay at home and then spend every minute with Michelle just like me. Instead, I feel so bad for him. He, he started his Pathless Path, but he has to work. He has to like separate himself from parenthood and dedicate himself in the co-working space going to the work mode which he hates the most. I feel so bad for you. Until I learned that you actually love strategy, that you actually love figuring out the problem, because it's excruciating for me to figure out anything strategic-wise.

And I think just by talking to you now, I realized generating guilt and having the emotion of guilt is one way for me to feel like I'm participating in this family is my way of sharing responsibility without taking action.

[12:22] Paul: But it doesn't make me feel like I'm part of it.

[12:26] Angie: But see, if I feel so happy, I was like, oh, Paul goes to work, he has whatever, I live my life, I will feel so irresponsible. But if I feel an extreme, tremendous amount of guilt, then I feel like I'm actually being responsible.

[12:41] Paul: Well, that's like the love language of Asian culture. Guilt? Shame.

[12:46] Angie: Shame? I don't know if it's a love language.

[12:49] Paul: I'm joking. But yeah, I think it's complicated for me too. I don't want— I'm scared of having to work full-time. Like, a full-time job scares the shit out of me. If I had to do that, I think, like, I think you're projecting that I wouldn't. Want to do that.

That's true.

[13:14] Angie: And I'm also projecting that when you are doing strategy work, you are in the full-time corporate worker mode.

[13:21] Paul: So much better. I get to decide everything.

[13:24] Angie: So I think that's one thing that's very important that improved our relationship these days, which I'm taking Joe Hudson's connection course on. And I realized how many assumptions I have about our marriage, our family, and you that I never clarify. And those assumptions are what is causing conflicts in us.

[13:43] Paul: Yeah, I think, I mean, that was kind of your survival mechanism growing up. You had worlds in your head, good and bad. And I think like observing Taiwanese culture, people do guess, right? I think there's this dichotomy of guess culture versus ask culture. Like, the US is an ask culture. Just ask them.

It's like, I don't ever guess what people think. I just assume I don't know.

[14:14] Angie: Not sure if this is hard for Americans to understand, so I'm going to name an example. So say like—

[14:20] Paul: Americans are pretty slow on a lot of things.

[14:22] Angie: Say the other day, our family member quit his job, so we bought some products from him. and then the company just sent us direct message to say, hey, this person is no longer working here, your product is invalid now. Instead of my parents confronting the person, or not even use the word confronting, asking or tasking the person, hey, did you leave your job? They spend like 5 freaking days toiling over their emotion. How can he did this? It must be him.

It's not a fraud message. He never told us that he left. I'm gonna confront him on Sunday, or maybe not. I'm just gonna maybe ask his family member? How is he doing now? I said, mom, just text him.

No, I cannot text him. It's too embarrassing for him. Text him. And I just kept guessing for 5 days. I was like, wow, this is where my assumptions come from and my tendency of assumption come from.

[15:13] Paul: Yeah, I think my family is a very direct family. I don't think that's all. I don't think it's an American thing. I think we're probably more direct than Asian cultures. But I think it's also you and your family as well. But then I'm the other extreme end.

I'm just like, I don't like to worry. So I'll just ask people. I'm like not afraid of conflict. I'd just be like, yo, what's the deal with the job?

[15:46] Angie: I know, I know you're not afraid of conflict. And that's such an important life skill.

[15:51] Paul: Yeah, but yeah. So where were we? Yeah. So work. I think the optimal amount of work is not zero. And this is something I talk about and write about a lot about in my work.

But I think for me, what I've determined is continuous full-time work through for the entirety of adulthood is what I'm trying to avoid. But zero work is not ideal.

[16:18] Angie: Mm-hmm. What do you mean by work?

[16:20] Paul: I think working towards something, right? So my book was one of the most enjoyable creative projects, and this is why I've been pushing you to just pick something, because you don't actually know until you go through something hard and long what you want.

[16:37] Angie: If you know a project never will never earn you any money, would you define it as work?

[16:42] Paul: Yeah, I think work is my writing. It's just being part of something that's either ongoing or you're moving towards something.

[16:52] Angie: You know how I would define it?

[16:53] Paul: Suffering, toil.

[16:55] Angie: No, I will call the thing that you keep doing and working hard and knowing that you would never make money. I would call it like being selfish. Like me doing art. I feel like I'm so selfish doing art.

[17:08] Paul: Oh, it's just work. It's an ongoing project.

[17:11] Angie: But it's not making me any money, so I think I'm being selfish. Like, I feel like work has some, like, morality to it. Like, I feel like if I am doing art with the goal that it will eventually bring our family income, then I will call it, oh, I have a— like, I'm doing work now. But then if— because I'm not, I'm not doing art with the mind— with a goal of having to make money in mind, I feel like I am doing a fun project that is selfish.

[17:38] Paul: Yeah, that's— you got to work through that. I mean, this is one of the core ideas I try to talk about in my writing, is that the idea of work has been corrupted by modern employment. Mm-hmm. Modern employment is just a type of work. When we look at work as this expansive thing where we're engaged and connected, to something, there's so much more opportunity for thinking about it, right? And so it's really hard because when you interact with other people, say, are you working?

What are you working on? And what they're asking is, do you have a job? How much money do you make? What's your title? All these other things, right? And so I have made a lot of money from my book now, but 3, 5, 6, 7 years ago, I was just writing and writing and I keep writing and I keep writing and I keep writing.

I wasn't trying to make money. And this is a newer, modern creator type of work where you just commit to stuff. And I think the upsides are that you can actually make money doing these things now.

[18:51] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[18:52] Paul: And we haven't updated our scripts to include that as like worth doing. Which is why my cousins make fun of me for being unemployed and people are like, oh, why don't you just get a job? And like, it's just people don't understand just working on something without certain payoff.

[19:10] Angie: To be fair, I don't think your cousin makes fun of you being unemployed. But my sister makes fun of me.

[19:17] Paul: They say stuff like that.

[19:19] Angie: My sister doesn't make fun of me and she genuinely wrote me a card like congratulating how lucky I am. This is what she said in Chinese. She said, "Congratulations, you found a lifelong sugar daddy that allows you to not work your whole life." And I look at the card, I was like, I was like, uh, I told Paul and Paul was like, "Your sister has no clue what she's talking about. She does not understand you at all. She does not see how how much suffering I put myself into by confronting this thing that I'm doing all the things I love, knowing that I am only spending money investing on my self-improvement, investing my art, my movement, and not earning any money. How bad I feel about that.

[20:08] Paul: Yeah, there's some assumptions that that is actually a goal we're chasing, right?

[20:14] Angie: I mean, like finding a sugar daddy.

[20:18] Paul: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a traditional mindset toward the world, right? And I think the reality is I don't allow you to do anything, right? I—

[20:33] Angie: because what do you mean by that?

[20:35] Paul: What I mean is it's not my allowance to give up. Like, you have autonomy over your life, right? We will make decisions shared, right? But I'm not saying, hey, I give you permission to not work and spend money. We're in a constant— and I think this is just like, your sister is still younger. My sister's projecting her desire onto me and maybe hasn't experienced a relationship like ours.

Like, we talk constantly about how are we spending our time, what are you working on, what are your goals, how can I support you. And I know you're working on all these things, right? I'm better at making money. And I also have the privilege of growing up in the American economy where we're like trained to be workers. And I also worked in places that trained me to be hyper-competent in the world, right? So I know I can make money more easily than you.

And so I'm indifferent if you want to live a life around making money or not. What I, I know you want to feel proud of yourself and feel challenged and feel like you're moving towards something. That's all I want for you. And like, I just want to figure out how to support you with that while also figuring out how to manage this with having kids and stuff.

[22:02] Angie: And if you go into my inner world, I will be— I can like Do I have your permission to externalize my inner critics to you now? Yeah, I'm asking. I'm asking the audience. I assume they say yes. Here's what I think. Oh my God, this is what the audience are thinking of me.

Jesus Christ, how did she— why would he marry Angie? Like, she is so useless. I can't believe Paul is saying those stuff. Like, Paul should be married to someone who's more ambitious, who is already making money, who's a badass like him. Like, what the fuck is Paul doing? Like, just leave this woman.

She's so worth— look at the way she carries herself in the YouTube video. She's so incompetent. She's not— she's just not made for this marriage. Just give up, Paul. Just give up.

[22:51] Paul: Well, none of this surprises me. And this is why it's crazy to see someone project that they think you've won the lottery, because I know how much pressure you put on yourself. And I know you want more. And I know you want to achieve things.

[23:10] Angie: We're never going to solve my insecurity in this podcast episode. So are we focusing on all money script now or going to talk about other stuff?

[23:19] Paul: No, I think people are interested in this. I think the segue here is how we're thinking about having kids because when we were just two people and like I was able to generate enough money to support our life, which is not that expensive. We're living pretty simply. We had cheap rents in most places. It got a little more expensive in the US, but we don't have a house. We don't have a car.

We're not like going out to restaurants that often. But with a kid, we now have like somebody has to watch the child. Right now we're paying a nanny. About $15 an hour.

[23:56] Angie: $13. $2 makes a lot of differences for me.

[24:01] Paul: In Taiwan, which is, it's more accessible and that's a good wage for somebody. But yeah, it's harder now, right? Because one, I feel more responsibility to earn money to pay for the things I want for my kid. Like I don't need any stuff. I'm pretty simple. I could eat cheap meals and go without buying new clothes for the rest of my life, though my mother might be disappointed in that approach.

But yeah, and then I think we naturally fall into these gender roles. I also think you're an incredible mother, like, and I think this is something we've talked a lot about, is you're a natural. Like, you're— how I'm good at making money and working, like, you're good. At being a mother. And I think you're still finding your groove in that. And we still don't know what we're doing, but it's very clear to me.

It's like, wow, she's amazing at this.

[24:56] Angie: I think I'll never be able to successfully convince you that I'm a piece of shit. So I might keep trying, but I already gave up that you might. Although sometimes when I'm in my PMS, I still think that you're going to leave me because you miss some more some other more ambitious women. But wait, okay, so in Chinese, like, there is a very reasonable way why you're acting like this despite the fact that I'm not a traditionally successful woman, which is you owe me something in our previous life. Like, I did a huge favor to you that you have to try so hard to earn money to provide things for Michelle. That's the only reasonable explanation.

[25:37] Paul: What's the phrase?

[25:39] Angie: There's no phrase.

[25:40] Paul: In Chinese, how do you say it?

[25:42] Angie: No.

[25:43] Paul: Oh, it's just like—

[25:43] Angie: It's a concept.

[25:45] Paul: Okay. What do I owe you in past life?

[25:47] Angie: I don't know. Maybe you are— I don't know. Maybe your parents sell you to be my kid and then I bought you and—

[25:57] Paul: Put yourself in my shoes. What is— What do you think I'm thinking?

[26:03] Angie: Life is great. I got it right today. Awesome. Gotta eat some more dumpling later. Oh my God. Dumpling in Taipei is so great.

[26:10] Paul: Yeah, I'm a pretty simple guy. Also, you're an amazing mother. I mean, you must have some confidence in that.

[26:19] Angie: I know, I'm a very playful mother.

[26:21] Paul: I think you seem very in the flow. Like, you don't pause and get worried. You just make decisions. Like, you buy food, you buy stuff for her, you go do stuff for her. You're very good at making decisions. Have you realized that?

Have you noticed that?

[26:37] Angie: I don't know about that. I think— I don't know if that's counted as being good. I think just that's a motherly instinct.

[26:47] Paul: Yeah. Well, I think that could fall into this very broad definition of work. I look at raising children as work. Too.

[26:59] Angie: No, it's not. If it's work, then—

[27:01] Paul: not in the way most people see it, but in the sense that like it's something I want to spend time on. It's something I don't know, like I want to get better at over time. It's something that I know is going to be challenging and I'm going to do for a long time.

[27:16] Angie: It's called emotional labor, if sociology—

[27:20] Paul: that—

[27:20] Angie: sign—

[27:21] Paul: but that's like the framing that is like heavy, painful toil again.

[27:27] Angie: Yeah, that's true. No, I love being a mother. I would never trade it for anything else.

[27:33] Paul: Yeah, the emotional labor framing was to— in the 1970s, there's this movement called Wages for Housewives, and they were trying to make an equivalence out of the work that housewives are doing.

[27:49] Angie: That's funny. So I actually feel better about myself after we start hiring nanny in Taiwan. Because now I can start converting the time I took care of Michelle in terms of how much we paid a nanny. So I'll be like, okay, if I take care of Michelle for 5 hours today, that means I earned $65 because it's me taking care of Michelle instead of hiring a nanny. The same logic is every time I return something at Amazon and then get a refund. Don't tell you how much money we make on the refund.

[28:19] Paul: But Yeah, and I think the framing there was, yeah, there is real work being done. When you have a family, everyone's contributing, right? And I think you do a lot of hidden things for me, just like supporting me in what I do. And I think an interesting thing about the things that come natural to you, you just dismiss.

[28:46] Angie: I think that's everyone's— not everyone's, most people's tendencies.

[28:52] Paul: Yeah, because when I'm like, oh, you support me, and you're like, yeah, whatever.

[28:56] Angie: Yeah.

[28:56] Paul: Or you taking care of Michelle, it's like, ah, it's easy, of course. It's like, it's whatever, it doesn't count.

[29:03] Angie: You know what comes to my mind when you say that? You say I support you, and my thought, my immediate thought is, oh, it's because I don't have the ability to earn money myself. Like, I have to let you do your work.

[29:12] Paul: But these are just scripts. You've already earned money.

[29:17] Angie: $5 over the past year.

[29:20] Paul: That's not true. You made like $3,000 in January.

[29:24] Angie: All right, just don't talk about it. That made me feel even worse.

[29:28] Paul: Yeah, but we as a family, and I think we've gotten better at starting— we're having these conversations. We as a family want to have kids.

[29:38] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[29:38] Paul: Right? We want to also work. You want to work on projects that matter to you. I want to work on projects that matter to me.

[29:47] Angie: Let's say you want to work and I want to create because I still wouldn't identify mine as work.

[29:52] Paul: Yeah, and maybe that's the interesting tension there. For you, like, money is bad, work is bad.

[29:58] Angie: No, for me, it's not as— no, it's not bad, but I'm not courageous enough to pursue them.

[30:04] Paul: Yeah, so yeah, let's talk about something you're trying to commit to. You want to write a book.

[30:14] Angie: Don't say that to the public. That's called Murphy's Law. You just ruin everything. Cut this.

[30:21] Paul: All right. Why can't you talk about it?

[30:24] Angie: Because it's called Murphy's Law. Whenever I say something to—

[30:26] Paul: Whatever can go wrong will go wrong. That is not That does not apply here.

[30:31] Angie: Or whatever law it is. The law is if you tell something to other people, you're screwed. That thing will never happen.

[30:39] Paul: Why are you so convinced of that?

[30:41] Angie: Because it happened so many times in my life. Long pause.

[30:50] Paul: So what are you working on?

[30:52] Angie: I'm writing a book, I guess. I guess I have no way to avoid it. But this is interesting. I have this hunch that I just need to keep working on that thing that I'm writing. And I have problem writing in English, so I stopped for maybe a month or two after I claimed that I want to write a book to Paul. But things come back in a different way.

I started writing in Chinese when I come back to Taiwan, which is totally unexpected. I thought I would hate Taiwanese culture so much. I'll hate the way I'm being treated so much that I just want to use English writing as a way to express myself differently, as a way to still asserting that type of existence of me through writing. But then I found out, oh, holy shit, like, I love writing in Chinese after I'm here. Like, I have— I'm— I just enjoy the way I can use the vocabulary in a completely different level. I can be expressing or like describing emotion in such an accurate way that I can never do in English.

And so I started writing Chinese and I couldn't stop. Like, I just keep going and I enjoy writing in. I just love the way I can— I don't have to think about how to express it and just like flow into it. And so I started to get momentum with it to the extent that after a few arguments, I decided there are like cycles in a month where I feel more ambitious, and I just like, I'm not going to be a piece of shit my whole life. I'm going to coffee shop today and email some publisher. So I just went and then I did some intense work, draft the book proposal, send it to publisher.

I get one reply, which I feel very good about it already. And so I think like, doesn't matter the publisher is legit, it doesn't matter the offer is good or not. Just the fact that I'm building momentum made me pretty, at least, at least like 5% more confident that I will keep writing this thing that I claim that I want to do.

[32:56] Paul: Yeah. And I think you're similar to me in that you need to do creative work, whether it's art or writing or something.

[33:08] Angie: It's just going to like— I have zero tolerance on doing stupid work. Like no-brain work.

[33:13] Paul: Yeah. And I think this is where I'm— you always say I want to be this badass entrepreneur or this crushing it executive. And that's not what makes you special. I don't think.

[33:31] Angie: Maybe I will be one day and I'll be extra special.

[33:35] Paul: But I think the only way you'd arrive there is if you actually leaned into the way you could do it on your own terms. I think some Sometimes you think you want to be like— I don't even know the archetype, but like just like grinding, pushing hard.

[33:53] Angie: SEO expert.

[33:57] Paul: But yeah, I think this is the hard thing about life is like the only true path is our own path.

[34:05] Angie: The Pathless Path.

[34:07] Paul: Right. We get so caught up and distracted sometimes for years at a time trying to live out other people's lives.

[34:15] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[34:17] Paul: Like, I think what I realized on my original path in working in consulting is I actually wasn't going after anything. I just ended up 10— like, I think I went after the shiny objects, and then you end up as this person and you're like, I'm not even this.

[34:35] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[34:36] Paul: Like, and that can be scary, and it was scary, but like, people look at me now and they're like, Paul has it figured out. I still don't have it figured out, but I think the collection of activities and my interests and like how I feel about my day-to-day, it's like, oh, this feels sustainable. It feels like I'm in a flow. It feels like I'm moving towards something, even if I don't know what comes next. And I think The key is like just quitting a lot of stuff all the time. But I think it's been harder for you because you have a lot of shame of quitting and you also get scared when you start stuff too.

So like sometimes you don't even know what type of quitting you need to do. Should you quit more or quit less?

[35:24] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[35:25] Paul: Does that resonate?

[35:26] Angie: Mm-hmm. I, in terms of like, I want to dive into something you just mentioned, like you want to keep going and you don't know where it's leading you, but you have an intuition that you need to keep going. And that's how I feel about writing now. I didn't feel about writing a few months before this. And I think one key transition is I learned a different framework thinking about committing to writing. So before I'm this Like, I'm totally buying in Steven Pressfield's framework— not framework, like his story of how he tried, he just like taken over by resistance and didn't write a novel until he's 50-something.

And I feel like that's the only way for artists to work, which is you suffer your whole life, you're trying to resist, you're trying to resist until one day you just can't stand yourself anymore, and then you, you quit being your small powerless self, and then you step up, and everything changes. And so I just keep thinking to myself, oh my God, when is that moment going to come to me? Oh my God, I quit again. So that is— it's not a moment for me yet. Maybe I need to wait till I'm 50-something. Until I read this book in Chinese.

It's written by an author called Chen Xue, if there is any Chinese listener, and she's talking about she was never like Steven Pressfield. Of course she didn't make the comparison, but she described herself like she knew she has to write ever since she was very young, to the extent that she was so close in the night market so she can keep writing. Even though she already started selling novels and people recognized her while she was selling purses at night market, people say, hey, are you that author? They're like, no, I'm not the author. She wants to separate the identity from her writing identity so she can keep writing. And she was like, I was never this procrastination person.

Like, I only— all I want to do is write. I will just write like crazy. I write whenever I can, wherever I can, behind a stand in night market, on the car when I was transporting goods. I just know I want to write. And so after I read that, I was like, oh shit, I can actually like writing and commit to it. I don't have to feel the resistance.

So I feel like I was presenting a different model. To writing. And that's how I started to develop this more positive relationship toward writing.

[37:48] Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, I think, like, I think people think they have to, like, figure it out. Like, I think finding our groove is really hard. I was telling you, I was looking back at my first year of writing my newsletter more consistently. And I had this story of like, oh, in Taiwan, 5 years ago, that's when I committed. But I had already published like 30 issues and was writing consistently.

I think it just took me a year to realize, oh, I keep doing this. This is probably something I should just keep doing. But it's hard, I think. I think I don't struggle as much with the self-narrative as you do. I'm just like, huh, all right.

[38:27] Angie: I think for some reason I started to question my narrative too, especially now after Joe Hudson introduced this framework of wonder. In my life. Like, how am I so certain this is who I am? Like, there's so many things I don't know about myself, and how am I certain that's the only way of existing? But before, I always claimed that I love doing art. Art is my calling, and writing is just a place for me to release my anger, release my frustration.

So I wrote in order to get away from negative emotion, but I do, I do art in order to walking toward a positive emotion because I've always feel abundant, always feel thriving. And so writing is not my thing. But then you say like, I remember you told me many times, I just don't really understand myself. I keep writing and I write like a maniac when I wanted to write. I was like, yeah, that's because I need to release some bad emotion. But I was like, what if he's right?

What if like, if I really hate writing so much, why do I feel the necessity of wanting to come back to writing over and over again. Doesn't matter, I stopped for like a week or two or three or a month. And me, what if, what if the feeling of not wanting to write is not because I don't like writing, it's because it's a resistance. It's because I know that writing will make me become something that I'm afraid of, like something that's more powerful than my small self. I am right now, and that's why I'm resisting. So I started to have this, like, wonder about my relationship with writing.

And I think that's how I started to change.

[40:16] Paul: Yeah.

[40:17] Angie: Yeah.

[40:17] Paul: Your scripts about what you can't be are very persuasive and stories, but in the positive direction, sometimes they're just not as clear. Whereas I think for me, what I can't be is just like, I don't even think about that.

[40:39] Angie: You know, your friend described me well.

[40:41] Paul: Who?

[40:41] Angie: Steven Worley.

[40:43] Paul: Yeah.

[40:44] Angie: He said I'm very eloquent with my vulnerability. And in a more like, so like to be sure, it's like I am very good at shitting myself.

[40:54] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. You're at describing the ways you're suffering and the things that are holding you back. You have like a, you have a whole world of characters and stories and it's like, wow, that's impressive because I don't even, I don't have any of that up here. Yeah. And I think it's hard.

I didn't really connect. I didn't realize writing was the thing I could do until I was 33. I had been writing stuff all the time in my high school, was writing articles for the paper for fun.

[41:28] Angie: I would just keep doing that.

[41:30] Paul: I wrote, I wrote this article about all my friends had minivans and how it was a cool car. All our moms wanted to get rid of their minivans because they wanted cooler crossover SUVs. So I wrote this article and it was super fun. And I remember just enjoying writing the article, it being funny. I wrote this article about a friend in college. It was really funny for this paper.

I had a blog in college. I had a blog after college.

[41:59] Angie: I didn't know that.

[42:00] Paul: I had a blog in grad school. I had a blog for my health. I was writing on Quora. It's like, oh, you dummy. It was always there. I just never saw it as a thing worth doing because my entire life was centered around being employed and getting jobs.

[42:17] Angie: Yeah, but for me, it's not like that for me. I didn't write before I met you. And I remember the first article, the first essay I wrote is when I quit my job in tech. And then before my employment as a personal trainer, and then you keep telling— we're in Pai, I remember we're in Thailand and we're in Pai. You've been telling me that I should share my stories through writing many, many times. And so like you started to put that seed in me and I feel like Is this really worth sharing?

Like, I feel so lost. I don't know where it's going to lead me. And I feel so shameful of like not meeting my parents' expectations. But you keep telling me like people doesn't want a perfect story. People want your vulnerability. And so I think that's how Steven Pressfield or Elizabeth Gilbert said, described about creativity is actually like an energy, oh sorry, an energy like floating in the universe.

Either you are going to tell their story or they will find other people to tell their story. And I feel like at that time, my creativity, God, my muse, choose me to tell the story. So like we were deep in the mountain of Thailand and then we're staying in this crazy, crazy house and I just couldn't sleep at night. I just feel like I need to say something, like I need to start writing. And maybe I also want to impress you because we were still dating at that time. And so like, I think it was like 4 AM or 3 AM, I just grabbed my computer and I start Facebook blog and then just start typing.

Such a shame that Facebook removed its blog. I couldn't find that article anymore. But I remember the minute you woke up in the middle of the night and saw me writing that blog and you were so happy and I'm so happy that I impressed you. But that's my first writing experience.

[44:07] Paul: You weren't impressing me.

[44:09] Angie: I am partially impressing you, but mostly wanting to tell my story.

[44:12] Paul: I was happy. Like every time you write, you were so connected to yourself and that makes me so happy.

[44:17] Angie: But that's the thing, that's the first time I wrote and I didn't know, I didn't know that is the feeling of writing. And I didn't write again until we were in Mexico and I start The Artist's Way and I feel like I wanted to write again. I start because like writing is for me is way more vulnerable than doing podcasts. Doing podcasts you can just use your guess word that's like, like, um, use it to like hide what you really think. But writing, you have to be responsible for your words. So I was so scared of writing in the beginning.

[44:50] Paul: Well, I think two things. One is I got to talk to you every day and you're an interesting person.

[44:57] Angie: Thank you.

[44:59] Paul: And you have really unique and interesting perspectives on the world, and it gives me all sorts of ideas for living my life and us together. And then two, anytime you put any ideas into the world, you attract like outsized response. I write for years, I'll get like, oh, this is an amazing article, thank you. You write like one post, you get like 6 people emailing you. It's like, Angie, this changed my life. Here are the 7 paragraphs about how I feel and how this transformed me.

And it's like just the outsized response. And it's like, very clear, like, yeah, that's probably what you should be following.

[45:42] Angie: I am still practicing accepting compliments. Like, even to this day, when I see the replies on my Substack, I will be like, why are they so nice to me? Like, why do they think that I'm worth their time? Like, even leaving a comment on me, on my Substack. And I think, like, we're talking about this imposter syndrome. Like, whenever you told me that my stuff is good, I will be like, Paul is just being a positive person.

And if I need to trace back, I think it's because when I start like, I— being in elite schools really kills me. It just made me feel like I'm such a loser compared to all the other elite students in my class, especially when I was studying literature in Taiwan. All my classmates are way better writers than me. I didn't like— I would not call myself a writer at all. Seeing how they write. And like, I was surprised they even want to make friends with me.

And so when you said I should write my stories, my first instinct's like, what are my friends gonna say if they— what are they gonna think if they saw my writing? Turns out they love my writing, but still I'm like, they're just being nice to me. They're way better writers than me. I mean, they're all book authors and editors now, so I have a legit excuse for being fear— like having this fear of writing, like my writing is not good enough.

[47:03] Paul: All excuses are legit.

[47:05] Angie: Maybe.

[47:06] Paul: But they're just excuses. Okay, next topic, Taiwan. So how do our roles shift in Taiwan? We've been here about— we've been here a month, a little over a month. Yeah. So background, I moved here in 2018.

Basically 5 years ago, I had not met you yet 5 years ago. We had texted because we matched on Tinder 6 months prior while I visited for a week, but we never met. And then—

[47:37] Angie: Which is a good thing that we never met at the time. I wasn't prepared.

[47:40] Paul: Yeah. So 5 years ago, I moved to Taiwan. I was about to meet you a few weeks from now in 5 years ago. We spent the next year and a half in Taiwan. We traveled abroad for a year plus and then returned to Taiwan for a year. And then we've been living in the US for 2 years.

We just returned for 3, 4 months again. So what is it like coming back to Taiwan again this time after living the longest stretch in like less academic setting with me and my family and my friends? What was that like? And what's it like coming back to Taiwan?

[48:22] Angie: I feel like an adult.

[48:24] Paul: Adult?

[48:25] Angie: Yes. Really?

[48:26] Paul: Congrats. Welcome to adulthood.

[48:31] Angie: I really struggle not being able to take care of things in the States. I know if I am— if I marry a Taiwanese immigrant and then we have to figure things out, I will figure things out. But it's just so easy to let Paul do all the logistics, finding insurance providers or doing taxes.

[48:47] Paul: Health care is terrible for Americans too.

[48:49] Angie: And you always said It's the worst. It's smarter that our division of labor is this way. I take care of this stuff because it will take you way longer to do this. And then so like at first I'll be like, no, let me do this. And then, but when I have to do this, I'll be like, oh my God, Paul can do this way better than me. Why doesn't he just take care of this?

So like I end up just not doing anything. And so he like just take care of every logistics on our life. So I gradually feel like I am an infant. Relying on my husband, which I don't know anything about. He saw me set up LLC, and when my friend asked me like, why do I choose LLC, I was like, oh my God, can you ask Paul? And I feel so embarrassed when I say can you ask Paul because I'm turned out not the baddest entrepreneur who set up his own company, and that company is not even making money.

[49:33] Paul: You do have an LLC though.

[49:35] Angie: Yeah, but you put everything, you set up everything. And so like, I feel like I'm living such an imposter life, like seems like I have like, you set up my substance, you set up my ghost webs, I use up everything, and I just feel like I can't do anything. I feel like a, I feel like a kid. And coming back to Taiwan, I'm so happy that I will be the one responsible for dealing with everything in our life. My kids' health insurance, booking train tickets, this like simple stuff, finding rental, like negotiating deals. Or like arguing with the government, I feel like a badass.

I just feel like a normal adult that can take care of things. And I wish like, it's not hard for me and it's not tiring. It's not something that I consider as like a burden. I feel so happy that I'm capable of doing these things. I feel so happy that I'm able to find resources, judging which resource is the best for me. I'm able to use the smartest and the bitchiest language to talk with people that I need to argue with.

I just feel like I'm a normal human being again. And that's how I feel the first time when I came back to Taiwan after I decided I don't want to go to the H-1B route, like seeking job and eventually become an immigrant through green card. Like I want to come back to Taiwan because I feel like I will be a normal human being. I feel like I'm really a citizen of a country. I was living in the States without health insurance. And I was like, what if one day I have an injury?

Like my parents may have to spend all their Taiwanese money to pay for my insurance. And I don't feel like I'm a human being. I don't feel like I have the basic human rights until I come back to Taiwan. And even though there is a lethargic energy and I have to deal with all the bureaucracy in Taiwan, it's not the best work culture, but at least I feel like an adult. And that's how I feel like coming back to Taiwan this time.

[51:33] Paul: And it's cool seeing you have that confidence. I think this is something that people have a hard time understanding from the outside, from cross-cultural couples. Like, you're not like an Asian American that grew up there. You're like an immigrant and you've only spent very limited time. You're having to learn like very basic stuff. And the US is a pain in the ass with like figuring out stuff like health care.

I enjoy the convenience of Taiwan and I don't even know what I'm doing half the time. But just being able to like do basic stuff, like even like healthcare, I know I just don't have to worry. Even if I had a major injury, I know like it's not going to bankrupt us and they'll take care of us and they'll probably discount our bill because they'd like feel bad that I didn't have insurance. It's just the kind of stuff that happens in Taiwan. Yeah, it's also nice because I get to play the infant in Taiwan too. I have no idea what's going on sometimes too.

And I just stand there and let you take care of stuff or—

[52:39] Angie: It feels so great to see you look completely clueless.

[52:43] Paul: But I actually don't mind that because I'm so competent in the US at getting stuff done. It's kind of a release to just feel like I don't know what I'm doing.

[52:53] Angie: You know how bad I feel every time we're in New York City and then we have to go back to Connecticut and you book the Amtrak for me. I don't know which station where we're going. I don't know.

[53:01] Paul: It's so easy though. It's like on the phone.

[53:03] Angie: I don't know. I don't even know which app I should download. I don't know which train are we going on. I don't know how long are we staying in the transition station. I like even the small stuff like that. It's like excruciatingly painful for me.

I was like, I can't— why can't I even like understand the small things that isn't booking train ticket? And now I'm just like, don't worry, I booked everything. And I just love seeing your expression.

[53:24] Paul: Maybe you think I'm better at I think I'm better at embracing uncertainty than you. Maybe. For some things. For some things.

[53:32] Angie: I think because you have enough self-confidence that you are a capable person. And I'm very insecure.

[53:37] Paul: Well, I know I can figure stuff out in Taiwan too. It's just more convenient here too. I know like people are so nice to like the struggling American in Taiwan.

[53:47] Angie: Especially, you know, a little bit Chinese.

[53:49] Paul: Yeah.

[53:49] Angie: And you have a Taiwanese looking baby.

[53:51] Paul: 不ジ道。丁不道。 Yeah, it is. Everything's figureoutable in Taiwan. It can be frustrating though. But yeah, I kind of like feeling like an idiot again. I think this is something I'm working on a piece right now writing about this. Like, I, I know a decent amount of like food Chinese, but if there's like a stand serving one thing, I have to like secretly like take a picture You do?

Sometimes, because I know a lot of the people at the stands don't speak any English or sometimes don't even speak Mandarin. They only speak Taiwan, Taiwanhua. And so I'll take a picture. I'm like, what is that? And then I'll like try to see it in Google Translate and Google Translate's worthless for like traditional Chinese. Sometimes it's like local north noodle thick medium.

It's like, this is—

[54:47] Angie: That sounds about right.

[54:49] Paul: Yeah, pretty much what it means. And I'm like, Mian zhong da. So cute.

[54:57] Angie: Huh?

[54:58] Paul: And I'll be saying it right, and sometimes they're just so shocked that I'm awake. I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. I'll just walk away.

[55:06] Angie: Yes, he will be saying it in perfect Chinese, like, you want it hot? And then he'll be like, hot? Insisting on speaking English to you.

[55:17] Paul: Yeah. It can be as embarrassing, and I think this is why people struggle. Like, I, I think more people should do this kind of travel, lean into a place for more than a month and like wander until you embarrass yourself fully and you just learn that like it's going to be okay. And I don't know if I've ever told you this, sometimes I just don't eat because there's too much resistance of like me building up courage.

[55:46] Angie: Really?

[55:46] Paul: To order something. And I'm just like—

[55:48] Angie: Is that why you keep buying 7-Eleven?

[55:50] Paul: Yeah.

[55:50] Angie: Rice balls?

[55:51] Paul: It is.

[55:52] Angie: Oh my God.

[55:53] Paul: I thought you thought it was delicious. Every new place is a new skill because I have to figure out what they actually serve. What do I want to order? How do I order? And yeah, I went to a place after the gym last night real quick and I ordered these veggies and I didn't know what I was going to get. But I got—

[56:13] Angie: did you get snails?

[56:14] Paul: No, I got the like thin green tube veggies with garlic. It's good. We'll go, I'll order for you. But I'm doing it in Google Translate and it said like, um, it just said veggies. Um, it didn't translate it to any English. I'm like, here we go, put the thin line, let's order, see what we get.

[56:37] Angie: You know, like This might be a sensitive topic, and then I know you won't cut it. I just want to heads up, it's a sensitive topic. I think it's like race really plays a part in my feeling powerless in the States.

[56:54] Paul: I don't think it's a sensitive topic. I think people are very comfortable talking about these things.

[56:58] Angie: Because I self-discriminate myself. If I'm in an Asian country, say we're in Thailand, and I'm completely clueless and I marry a Thai husband, who has to deal with everything for me. I may feel bad that he has to do everything for me, but I won't feel like an infant. I would just feel like an aspect or a tourist or a, like, a wife from Taiwan. But when I'm in the States and I don't know how to deal with things in English, and when I consider English is a better language than Chinese because of my upbringing or my, like, commercialism told me this is the way English is, Or like the way we admire American culture over our own local culture. Or just me.

Just me. I'm not generalizing on any Taiwanese. Apologize. Just me.

[57:43] Paul: I think that is something that exists in East Asia for sure.

[57:47] Angie: So that makes me feel like not being able to master life in the States means I'm a failure.

[57:54] Paul: Yeah.

[57:54] Angie: Doesn't mean that it's neutral like I would experience in other Asian countries.

[57:59] Paul: I think that's totally fair. I don't think this is that sensitive of a topic. Like, America is like the 100-pound gorilla, just like trying to make everyone aware that it exists. And it's this weird country where anyone can become American. But I think the flip side of that is when you're in America, you're just not yet American enough, right? So the assumption, I think, like, this is the good thing, is like people do accept you as just you're one of us, you're part of the American machine.

Whereas like in Taiwan, I think it's almost a blessing sometimes. It's like, I'm not Taiwanese, I'm also never going to be accepted as like Taiwanese. Whereas like you just show up in the US, there's so many Asians And I expected you to understand how this works. Yeah.

[58:57] Angie: I expected you to understand how to order in Subway.

[58:59] Paul: Well, that's the flip side of you can be American as long as you put in the effort to try to become that as an aspiration. And that's like such a well-worn script and path for hundreds of years of immigrants.

[59:16] Angie: Okay.

[59:18] Paul: Is that right, Nick?

[59:19] Angie: Yeah, yeah, maybe.

[59:21] Paul: Well, I think, yeah, I think it pairs with the idea of what, what you were saying is you put America on a pedestal and then when you're not succeeding there, you're just not good enough.

[59:33] Angie: Mm-hmm. Yep. That's my script.

[59:36] Paul: Right.

[59:38] Angie: But things doesn't have to be this way. I knew so many, like, non-Americans, they were just like fine with not being able to mastering life in the US.

[59:47] Paul: Like, I think your sister would be totally chill in America.

[59:50] Angie: No, she would get frustrated when she can't— doesn't know how to order. Like, she does definitely judge herself. But like, when I was studying in my master's program and we have European students, they do not give a fuck about mastering American culture.

[01:00:09] Paul: Yeah, they do not.

[01:00:11] Angie: Damn, I should— English is so annoying.

[01:00:13] Paul: It's the Western energy. It's like, I figured out— and I think it's traveling as an American is one of the greatest privileges in the world because everyone is trying to learn English for travel purposes. Why do your— why does your dad learn English? So he can travel to Europe, right? That's kind of weird. Like, if you want to go to Austria, you learn English as the travel language.

And it's, um, yeah, it's kind of this thing. As an American, you don't realize how hard it is not growing up in an English-speaking culture.

[01:00:51] Angie: I appreciate that you understand this.

[01:00:54] Paul: Yeah, but I also, like, I want to learn the language better in Taiwan, and I feel bad here too. It doesn't bother me as much.

[01:01:03] Angie: I think maybe that It's a good transition to our second thing, like the influence of language.

[01:01:09] Paul: Yeah.

[01:01:09] Angie: So we— one of the reasons we want to come back to Taiwan at this time is to like, like maybe like my parents will be able to see Michelle more during this 3 months. And then Michelle, even though she can't speak Chinese yet, she'll be able to immerse herself in a Chinese environment. And we were in the States, I was telling Paul like how aggressive Taiwanese parents can be in like educating their kids or disciplining them. And so turns out things are not as bad, but it's also not as good as Paul thought. So it's not as bad in terms of like people won't just randomly hit kids on the street or like use like bad words to curse them, but it's way more immersive than I thought in like any situation you can think of.

So like the other day it's thundering, it was raining, and I heard my mom told me told Michelle, oh my gosh, thundering, the god of thunder is getting angry, behave well because otherwise he might take you. He might take you.

[01:02:06] Paul: Yeah.

[01:02:07] Angie: And, or like, um, there's a lot of threats.

[01:02:11] Paul: There's a lot of threats in the way people communicate to children, but people are not aware that they're threats.

[01:02:17] Angie: Yeah. Can I keep naming?

[01:02:18] Paul: Or yeah, yeah, more examples.

[01:02:21] Angie: Like, our daughter is not sleeping through the nights recently. And then so I was telling my mom this and I heard my mom told Michelle that you gotta, if you keep waking up in the middle of the night, your mom will tie you up. And I was like, mom, I won't tie her up. What are you talking about? Grandma's joking.

[01:02:41] Paul: And to be clear, no one gets tied up.

[01:02:43] Angie: Yeah, no one gets tied up. Or like my dad will say, oh, the police is gonna take you away if you're not behaving well.

[01:02:51] Paul: Yeah.

[01:02:52] Angie: Just all the thirst is like everywhere and make me really concerned like how much Chinese do I want to teach my kid?

[01:03:00] Paul: Yeah, and I think for you, you're hypersensitive to that stuff even more than most people. Other people just like, ah, whatever, that's just what people say. Right. And to an American, it's definitely shocking. It's so casual. Um, but it also makes sense, I think, like the rapid change Taiwan went through and how recent it was under martial law.

Like there's so much like violence submerged like within the culture that is kind of absorbed in like how people treat children and how people treat each other and like some of the fears.

[01:03:42] Angie: Yeah, the other day, I don't know if I hear it wrong, but it's ghost month in Taiwan. And so I think I hear a broadcast, like when I was in a shopping mall, said the government reminds, kindly reminds everyone, do not do anything bad, otherwise the ghost might come to you.

[01:04:01] Paul: The government.

[01:04:02] Angie: Yeah. Or like, government kindly provides you this table in front of your door so you can burn incense for the ghost. It's just, I mean, like rationally, like, I mean, academically, I read how this level of control in every neighborhood was passed down from the Japanese era, but it wasn't until this time that I really observed how immersive it is. Like every few corners, you will see a little stand. It's called the community stand where people will like volunteer to watch out for the bad guys in the community. Or like you pass by kindergarten and you'll see signs of like discipline, respect, love, and behave well as slogans on their kindergarten.

Or like when you go to swimming pool and you hear the swimming pool management team will say, will broadcasting, please do not run around the swimming pool. And the kid wearing the red cap do not do that again, or I warn you, you have to leave. And I was like, I can't even imagine hearing this kind of broadcast in an American swimming pool. People will be outrageous. But this type, like, this— people take this type of control and this type of like surveillance for granted. It's like, I have the right to discipline you, to control you, and it's like a mutual agreement.

[01:05:26] Paul: Following the rules is so important. I think this is one of the hardest things to adjust to living in Taiwan is there's so many rules for everything. And then if you're not following like some code or rule, and to be fair, like a lot of the rules are explicit, but like somebody will inform you, oh, you have to do this, or like you have to wear a swim cap. And so get very concerned. Like we were with friends and their kid was swimming in a swimming pool and the person's like hardly even watching the kid. But then the kid's swim cap come off, right?

And he's like, got to have the swim cap, and then inform the parents that the swim cap came off. It's like, okay, we're going to be okay.

[01:06:06] Angie: Mhm.

[01:06:08] Paul: Um, I think there's just like more wiggle room for like, um, discretion of like how you follow the rules in the US, which also makes it hard. In the US, you don't know what you're supposed to do and navigating that.

[01:06:21] Angie: Mhm. I think this time something Like, just the first day when we were boarding on the flight to Taiwan, I started to feel like a surging rage and frustration rising within me because I realized this is like how I feel that I wasn't able to stand up for myself in the States. That's why I always feel like I am this like timid little Asian girl because This is the way our culture wants us to ask. Like when we're on the flight, the China Airlines flight attendants keep apologizing for everything, that even it's the fault of passenger. And here in like 7-Eleven, everywhere, people are just always apologizing. I cannot even imagine an American airline flight attendant apologize to a passenger.

[01:07:12] Paul: They don't care.

[01:07:14] Angie: Like this way of treating ourselves.

[01:07:16] Paul: Like mei guan qi. What do they say?

[01:07:19] Angie: No, they say sorry.

[01:07:20] Paul: Oh, mei bu chi?

[01:07:22] Angie: No, like, you know, in the States, if people pass by me and hit me, I would be the— I'll say I'm sorry. And I'll be like, what the fuck am I saying I'm sorry about? He hit me.

[01:07:31] Paul: It's going to vary if you're in like New York versus the South.

[01:07:35] Angie: No, like, I will assume that it's my fault. And I will be upset at myself. But then I see it's everywhere in Taiwan.

[01:07:44] Paul: Yeah.

[01:07:44] Angie: Like people assume it's their fault. People assume that they need to apologize. And I'm so angry. Like, this is the culture that made me who I am today. Like, it's completely given the responsibility to my culture, not me.

[01:07:54] Paul: Yeah. And it's super hard, right? I mean, the way you grew up in schools is you had to dress the same, you had to do the same haircut, you had to act the same, you had to have certain behaviors. And you were like in these schools where like people could literally see over you.

[01:08:09] Angie: And we're always told that we are burdens, that it's all our fault. It's never the other person's fault. Like when I was in 7-Eleven— oh my God, I start ranting now. Last rant. When I was in 7-Eleven, there was a kid playing in front of me because he's a kid, of course. And then his mom just like really dragged him away and said, did you see that you're blocking other people?

And I was like, that's okay, he's fine. I was like, damn, like this is how kids internalize they are a burden. They're always at fault.

[01:08:39] Paul: Yeah, and I think the thing I keep reminding you though is like, like, our children are going to spend time with us. They're going to see how we behave, right? Um, but yeah, it does make different choices down the road with schools, um, I think pretty clear for us.

[01:08:57] Angie: Mhm.

[01:08:58] Paul: Yeah, we're like, even like the masks, like, um, having to wear masks still even though there's no mask mandate. It's like, I think sometimes people are looking for rules to follow. But yeah, we don't have to go down that. Let's see. So we wanted to do a segment of celebrating the other person. You want to do this now?

Do you want to cover more stuff?

[01:09:31] Angie: Let's cover other stuff maybe. So we talk about work a lot, but we didn't really go into details of how after we go remote and traveling, how do we do this shared responsibility thing.

[01:09:44] Paul: Yeah, so I think for the first 4 months I was just dropping the ball on everything and mostly focusing on parenting and helping you. You're definitely full-time. You're basically just like doing art and writing for fun. When you felt like it, but you were definitely full-time. And then I think coming to Taiwan, like, we're feeling more stable. She's 6 months, we're able to get a little help here.

I'm trying to find my work routine. I think one realization for me is like, I need to leave the house. One is I like being with my daughter, um, but if I'm just going over to her and picking her up every 10 minutes, I don't actually do anything.

[01:10:23] Angie: Mhm.

[01:10:23] Paul: Um, So I haven't accomplished much. So I think leaving and finding another place has been really helpful for me. But also both of us have been used to just doing whatever we want every day for 5 years. And actually putting in some structure I think has been helpful for us in communicating that on a week to week. But I think it's still a work in progress.

[01:10:46] Angie: Mm-hmm. And I think that for me, it's, Like, even if I don't go out to work or like do creative project, it's so important for me to have a dedicated corner in the house. Like when I was putting my laptop in the dining room where Michelle's just next to me, I, like you, I want to play with her or I just use her as an excuse to distract myself. But then I ordered this $20 table and I put it in a room. Where I can close the room and just trusting that Michelle is in good care with you, I will be able to go into flow and finish the task that is on my to-do list for 3 weeks in like 30 minutes. And so like, I think understanding our needs and what put us in flow and like really supporting each other and like really put that into a very clear, defined way of execution is so important too.

To us when we travel.

[01:11:45] Paul: Yeah. How do you think that's gonna change over time? Like, as our daughter sleeps less and needs more attention, and how do you think we're gonna balance all this?

[01:11:58] Angie: We will let our future self figure out.

[01:12:00] Paul: I think that's a big difference between us, is like, you don't like thinking about the future.

[01:12:05] Angie: That's just another topic for the next episode.

[01:12:08] Paul: All right, the next episode, ADHD time horizon. How we think about the future.

[01:12:16] Angie: But so like how, I think one thing that people might be wondering is how do we make friends or find social support when we travel?

[01:12:25] Paul: Are people wondering that? Leave comments below. But yeah, I mean, in Taiwan, I'm really not prioritizing friends. I have 4 or 5 friends I know in Taiwan and I'm just catching up with them. Yeah, I mean, at this point I think we're thinking differently is like, I don't know, still trying to find like families who are traveling with kids. I think that's something we're struggling to find.

We're going to be in Barcelona in a couple of months and then back to Austin. So if you are a family with kids, that wants to hang out, let us know.

[01:13:01] Angie: I just want to say, like, be intentional, this thing. Yeah, like, I— because Taiwan is so familiar to me, I can just go into them and I'm just hanging out with my friends who is not nomad. But then I'll always be wondering, what is it like if we want to return to Taiwan for a year in the future? How do we register Michelin school? We should be adapting. So like, making extra effort to connecting with nomad family in Taiwan, just this one conversation open up so many different ideas I have.

And like learning what are the ups and downsides of registering kids in a Chinese school versus experimental schools.

[01:13:34] Paul: Shout out to Jenny and Lisa, former guests on the podcast.

[01:13:38] Angie: And my friend Kelly connected with David who's running this digital nomad project in Taiwan. Without knowing him, I wouldn't be able to connect with other digital nomads, I think. But now because of him, we're going on a trip to this rural part of Taiwan and then just hanging out in a shared house. With maybe 10 other different nomads, and then we're going to learn about how they plan their life, how they plan their kids' education around the world, and how do they think of like their long-term and short-term, um, life planning. And these are— this is a one small, not, uh, small like connection that can open up to so many different possibilities and like ways of imagination in our life. And so I feel like this intentionality is so important when we are traveling.

[01:14:25] Paul: Yeah, I think it's not that we're seeking out nomad families, it's that people who are nomadic and expats have to think intentionally about how they're structuring their lives and like all that's just good information. So super valuable.

[01:14:42] Angie: Yeah, so still a lot that we wanted to cover, but our time is up and we will save it for—

[01:14:48] Paul: we're gonna close with Say one thing that you want to celebrate the other person.

[01:14:55] Angie: Okay.

[01:14:56] Paul: I—

[01:14:57] Angie: this is so hard. Celebrate— I celebrate you.

[01:15:02] Paul: Celebrate what?

[01:15:06] Angie: Okay. I think I celebrate you're in wonder again in Taiwan. And I think— and this— And this is a great opportunity to see a different side of you. And also just like, this is a great way for me to lean into conflict more, to like embrace conflict more, because we have to talk about this hard thing that we didn't, that we didn't maybe have to talk about when we were in the States. And because of stepping into those conflict and conversation, I see a different side of me and I feel like better about myself too. This is how I celebrate you.

[01:15:44] Paul: Awesome. I celebrate your movements toward writing and taking that more seriously. I am making a prediction that that's going to lead somewhere really interesting.

[01:15:57] Angie: I think so too.

[01:15:58] Paul: We'll revisit this, but I'm also just celebrating how wonderful you are with Michelle in Taiwan and how many amazing things you're doing with her. The swim classes and just fun days you have planned for her and us. It's awesome to watch. I love it.

[01:16:17] Angie: I said the compliments and she accepted.

[01:16:20] Paul: Awesome. So that's today's episode. Thank you. If you have any questions or comments, I'd love to hear them. We're going to keep doing these, maybe another one before we leave Taiwan. But thanks, everyone.

Anything you want to add?

[01:16:34] Angie: No, this is good. Thank you so much for watching and listening to our episode.