The Nonlinear Life Path: College at 16, Med School in Cuba & Starting Over After Kids - Aida Alston

[01:45] Paul: Without further ado. Let's dive in. Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I'm talking with Aida Alston, who's had a fascinating life path from testing out of high school at 15 years old to finishing college with no debt, then finishing medical school and doing it for free in Cuba, all by the age of 24. Um, today Aida is gonna talk about having everything you're supposed to want and then still deciding to sort of walk away from that, trying to figure out what's next.

She describes herself as an early and late bloomer. Excited to chat with you today, Aida. Welcome to the podcast.

[02:33] Starting Over After Kids: Thank you. Hi Paul. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's really, really nice talking with you again.

[02:38] Paul: Yeah. Uh, so you've started sharing publicly and I've been really excited to dig into your story because I just feel like increasingly I'm talking to people who have things they think they're supposed to want and want to walk away. We're going to dive into that. Want to start earlier, though. Like, what were some of the scripts you grew up with, maybe around work? And I think we've talked a bit about creativity.

What were some of the scripts you grew up around that?

[03:11] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, so my family are kind of on both sides. Like, both of my parents were very, um, kind of non-traditional types in, on, in their own right. And so we grew up with a lot of freedom around following whatever we thought was interesting. It was like from the very beginning, like, you want to do this activity? Oh, now you're done with this activity? You want to do this other thing?

You want to do violin? Great, you're done with that. You want to do gymnastics? Great, you're done with that. Like, we had a lot of freedom You know, we would kind of be pushed to finish things, but it was definitely freedom to change and try something new. And not a lot of pressure to like, you have to go through this just because you started it and you have to, you know, finish it no matter what.

And I remember, I feel like one of the earlier things, like I kind of in my head have this thing from high school, like high school was a really big defining moment of being able to follow something that I wanted to do that was not traditional. But when I think back, it was actually even earlier. One of the memories I have is my mom was a physical therapist and she was doing a training in Hawaii. And so, you know, I'm from San Francisco, so it's not as bad as like coming from all the way from, from the East Coast out there. But we were going to go with her, my sister and I, and I was, I think, in 6th grade the first year that she was doing it. The trainings that she would do were like a month.

Long. And so, you know, she told my teachers, "Aida's going to be out of school for a month." Like, there's not like a, "Can Aida leave for a month?" It's just like, "Aida's going to be out of school for a month, you know, send her whatever materials you want and we'll be there and she'll be back and she'll be fine and you'll be fine. Like, everything will be fine." And that's just it. And so what I did when I went, I mean, I guess they gave me materials. I'm sure that they did, but I was excited to go find my own materials to bring while I was out there. So I remember at least one of them being like a Chinese math workbook.

It's like, ooh, this sounds really interesting. I'm going to teach myself like doing math with Chinese characters. And it was great to just be able to be out for the month and not feel like we were kind of missing something, that it was so dire that every single second had to be taken up and that we could also build in her work and build in our time while we were there. And even the next year when she went again, we actually chose to only stay for 2 weeks. We're like, it's too long. Staying a month is actually too long.

So we need to go back. And I think since they had both left where they were from and had gone to San Francisco and were both around a lot of artists, they were— they both did tai chi together in San Francisco, part of tai chi. Grew up in San Francisco. My dad taught tai chi and was an acupuncturist and had been in musical theater. They actually met in the theater house. My dad, he was like, when my mom moved to San Francisco, they were there at this theater house and she moved in as one of the roommates.

So we were always really encouraging, like it was really encouraged to do something that was different. So I carried that very strongly moving forward until I guess high school was that, that real turning point of now I get to actually decide on something and pursue it. That's gonna be really different.

[06:28] Paul: Yeah. So your path's so interesting because you grew up with the, this tension of like the unconventional path and doing it at different ages, but at the same time you were sort of increasingly opting into a more constrained path, right? Like becoming, becoming a doctor at the age you did is pretty exceptional, but the doctor path attracts people that really want like a certain path in life. How did—

[06:55] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[06:56] Paul: So maybe like start with like, when was the first time, um, you sort of like veered off, um, the traditional path? Like it, you said you tested out of high school at 15, but was there something before that?

[07:11] Starting Over After Kids: I think that that was the real point when it started going more non-traditional. And I think if I, if I had gone probably to any other school, I probably would have stayed in some way or another. But the school that I went to is actually a really prestigious Jesuit school in San Francisco called St. Ignatius College Preparatory. And I had never been in private school. I had never been in Jesuit school, definitely.

It was the first time, was actually we got connected to it through our landlord. And I really had no idea kind of what that was. I had never— hadn't really been around none of that world in San Francisco. But it was really not a place that was very welcoming for me. It was like it was a very prestigious school. Like if you weren't there, you could kind of go to any college that you wanted to in the country.

But at that time was when I started dancing. So I was actually a dancer and wanted to pursue that even more. I wanted to pursue that professionally. So I had that on, on the side always. And when I started to really have a really hard time with school in high school was after 9th grade. I finished 9th grade.

And by the time I got to the end of 9th grade, Even my mom was noticing like, Aida just seems really depressed at this place. Like, we either got to put her in another school or what other options kind of are there? And it was actually her who had done this research and found people who were doing unschooling. I mean, we were definitely late to the game if we were just finding this out at high school, but we had never really heard about that. So people who are doing unschooling and other kind of non-traditional ways of schooling. And a lot of the kids who had done unschooling had taken this exam called the California High School Proficiency Exam.

And so when we looked at it, I realized, oh, I can actually take that earlier than taking a GED. It's actually easier than taking a GED and I can get out earlier and go straight to city college. I knew that as if I was going to be pursuing dance, that I wanted to at least have a college degree. I figured there's a lot of dancers that don't go in and don't continue down like a traditional path in that way. And I wanted to at least have that under my belt. But it was, I guess, 2 months into 10th grade when I really decided like, I'm not going to pursue this anymore.

And so I left after 2 months of 10th grade and was out for the rest of the year kind of doing some unschooling activities. It was like getting into these programs that were catering to high school-aged kids that were doing these non-traditional things like a nature study group, and there was like a hip-hop performance group, um, and a theater group that I was in. And I took this exam at the end of that year, and what that gave me was the high school diploma, the equivalency. And so I went to, um, City College in San Francisco for 2 years and then transferred down to California State University, Long Beach. And I knew at that point that there was at least options. And I wasn't still quite sure what that would look like, 'cause I was still very much like, oh, this is, I'm taking this kind of roundabout path, but I'm still gonna do something that's very straight and narrow.

And so I got down to Long Beach and decided that I actually did not wanna pursue what I had first majored in. I was a fashion design major, 'cause I could sew, and I wanted to dance professionally. And I ended up switching my major to Black Studies, which in other places was called Africana Studies or African American Studies. And it was from there that I was kind of introduced to more values that I really wanted to express in some way and actually veered away from the dance. And I still wasn't sure what that was going to end up looking like, but that's kind of where, where Cuba came in.

[11:17] Paul: Yeah. Did you, um, what was that like just being a different age than I imagine a lot of the people around you, even in that first college? I imagine it was more of a mixed age, um, community. Like, did you have a sense of like, I'm more mature than people my age, or like, oh, oh wow, what have I gotten into?

[11:39] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. Well, at City College, it definitely just felt like high school. It was like people that I, you know, San Francisco is not a huge city. I mean, it is a big city, but now I'm in New York. So I'm like, it's not a huge city compared to someplace like New York. And, you know, I kind of knew what people that were there already.

And so I was younger because I was 15, but there were still, there were kind of people of all ages. And so it kind of was easy to mix in. And the people that I was in my dance group with, we were all kind of ages. So I was used to being around people that were older than me. And what I did realize was that I just wasn't going to kind of drag it out. It's like, I'm going to be here for 2 years, 2-year school, I'm going to be here for 2 years and I'm going to kind of move on.

And so I was very determined about what classes do I need to take to make sure that I can get out and I can transfer because I don't want to kind of extend it 3 or 4 years at City College. I knew I just wanted to be able to graduate so that I could continue to dance.

[12:36] Paul: Yeah, so talk to me about starting to think about going to medical school. I know this involved a bit of hoop jumping, something we both have gained some skills in, but what was that like?

[12:51] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, so I heard about the program through one of my professors in college, and it really had not crossed my mind before then. It wasn't a thing that I thought like, oh, I'm going to be a doctor since I was 5. I'm going to be a doctor since I was a young kid and I knew that I was going to do this. It was like, this could be a way of expressing some of these values and doing this kind of service back to a community that I had been surrounded by when I was in Black Studies. When I went to do the application, I realized, oh, you need to actually do pre-med. And I was like, oh, I don't actually have any pre-med done.

So how am I going to get this? I was like, I don't want to spend another 2 years to do pre-med.

[13:39] Paul: Yeah.

[13:39] Starting Over After Kids: You know, another 3 years to do pre-med to then go and be in med school for 6 years because it's a 6-year program in Cuba. So I ended up finding a— it's a— it was a program that actually doesn't exist anymore in San Francisco, but it was made for people who are who are trying to transfer into the sciences from some other field and that need to get their pre-meds done kind of in off hours. So it was 2 years worth of pre-meds down into 8 months, and it was only on the weekend from like, I guess, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, right? And Saturday, Sunday from like 8 to 5. It was like every day for those 2 years. I mean, for that, those 8 months, get 2 years worth of of work in.

And so I got that done to be able to go. And, you know, it wasn't necessarily hoop jumping, I guess. I don't know. It's kind of just like finding these loopholes. Like, that's kind of the word that kind of comes to mind. It's like finding a loophole in like a traditional way, a traditional timeline.

I guess that's the thing. It's like finding a non-traditional timeline for doing traditional things.

[14:49] Paul: Yeah. So it's, it's sort of working backwards saying, okay, how can I do this? But in the best way possible for me, rather than like having to take the traditional path. Does that impulse come from your parents and how you were raised?

[15:04] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. I mean, I think I could learn a lot from my mom about that. You know, I remember one of the things, like when I graduated from college, she, there was a, I think it was Long Beach City College was hosting a study abroad program to go to Ghana for 5 weeks. And I remember seeing this flyer and was like, oh my God, I would love to do that. But, you know, the deadline has already passed. And so I guess, you know, that's just it.

And she's like, oh no, call. Like, what do you mean? I didn't know. You always call. You always try. Like, there's always kind of a way around something.

So go and check. And it was still opening. And they're like, oh yeah, totally great. I'm glad that you, you know, decided to do it and come along with us. So I think I got that from her. It's like, always try it, because it's not like I was inventing any of these things, right?

They were just there. It's just that they weren't, you know, advertised necessarily. So people didn't know that that was an option that they could take.

[15:55] Paul: Yeah, that, that's interesting. I think me and, me and my wife have different default settings around this. Maybe it's an American thing to look for the loopholes, but I always assume everything's sort of negotiable. And that's sort of guided a lot of my path. And mostly I look at things that way to try and like expand my imagination for what's possible. Because I mean, there's just so many things like, oh, that's the only way you can do it.

[16:23] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. And I think that it probably is a very American thing about, you know, being able to kind of find ways around, around traditional kind of constraints. For better and for worse, you know, it's like it brings a lot of innovation and people trying out new things. But there's also no scripts for how to do that really either.

[16:45] Paul: So at 19, you're in medical school. How—

[16:49] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, I guess by the time I got there, I graduated college at 19. And so there was a year where I was working in between. I worked for— between going, it was like I worked for a time and then at a nonprofit in Oakland. And then I was doing the pre-meds. And so by the time I got to Cuba, I was 21, about to turn 22. Yeah.

[17:12] Paul: And Cuba has a reputation for having a pretty good healthcare system. What was your experience of that?

[17:19] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, so the Cubans, I mean, that's the way that I had heard about it even was in regards to their medical, um, you know, it's like medical diplomacy really. Like, this is one resource that they've had for a long time, is their medical system and their, and their doctors. And so they're able to share with other and, and trade with other countries based on the resources that they had in medicine and training doctors and sending doctors to places is one of the things that, um, that they have done for I mean, in a really long time. And being a poorer country and with the embargo from the US, they had to invent their way through a lot of stuff and make sure that there's a safety net for everybody. And so there was, there were the kinds of things that I heard people talk about from either other countries or from other generations about like your doctor lived in the neighborhood.

You know, like, being a doctor or a nurse in Cuba is not exceptional. It's like every family either has a doctor in it, knows a doctor, there's a doctor that lives in their building, there's a doctor's office in your building no matter what, um, within a certain radius. So every part of the, um, of the community has a doctor within a doctor's office in the community within a certain radius. So there's no part that's left uncovered. And nurses is the same way. It's like everybody has like a nurse in the family or knows a nurse in the family.

So there's the, the safety net, um, even outside of like going to the doctor's office, you know, people would come and knock on the door and be like, can you just— can I ask you about this thing? Can I— can you come and see my, you know, my family member or something? So it was always, um, you know, they— there's a name for it, médico de la familia. It's like a family doctor, and you are truly like a family doctor there. And that's across the entire country. So it's blanketed with primary care for everyone.

[19:31] Paul: That's, that's pretty amazing. What, what was the medical school experience like for you? Did you, the entire time you were there, were you thinking this is like definitely what I want to be doing?

[19:45] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, so that in the beginning it was, and part of what really made it so, um, great was that we were there all living together. So it was an international school, um, it's called Escuela Latinoamericana de Medicina, it's Latin American Medical School, um, in English, and it's an international school. And so there were, when we got there, I think it was about 20 3 countries. And so it was all of Latin America. The only non-native Spanish speakers were the students from the US, the students from Belize and from Brazil, and everyone else were native Spanish speakers. And we all lived in dorms for the first 2 years, and it was an old naval training academy that was converted into the medical school.

And when I first got there, it's like I was learning Spanish because I didn't speak Spanish before going down. I had taken a year of it in high school, a year of it in college, but I didn't actually speak fluently until I got down there. So I spent like 2 months before school started to learn it well enough to be able to start the first year in Spanish. But all of the professors were Cuban, all the patients on the line were in the clinical years were Cuban, and all of our classmates were Spanish speakers. And so being in that environment, I mean, it was like, you know, the people say like the college experience It was like that times just a million. It's like, I— everything was new.

Living in Cuba was new. Speaking Spanish was new. Learning about these students from these other countries, like, I hadn't even, you know, I didn't know, you know, Paraguay had another language. I had never heard of, like, Guarani. Like, I didn't know that they were— I'd never met Black Peruvians. I'd never met Garífuna students from Honduras.

And I had, I felt very naive. Like I had no idea that there was so much out there. I'd never met students from Belize. Like I didn't, I couldn't have even pointed Belize out on a map. So all of that and being with the US students, um, it was incredibly fun. It was really hard.

It was like really weird to be in, sitting in class and being in Spanish all day. Like, is this weird for anybody else? I'm like, Apparently it's not because everyone's native Spanish speaker except for us. It's not weird. So in the first 2 years, it was, it was really what I was looking for. It's like I had taken all these values of like community service and I was going to be giving back.

And I felt very strongly that medicine was going to be the thing. And I had this time of saying like, even if I were in the US, I would go into medicine. I just hadn't started the clinical years yet. And so Started realizing like, oh, actually the clinical side is not really what I enjoy. And so as the clinical years came on, then I started realizing like, I'm not quite liking this rotation, maybe the next rotation will be better. And each year it was kind of waiting for the next thing to be a little bit better.

And I just really, yeah, didn't quite enjoy the clinical aspect of it, but I love studying medicine. So I loved learning the why, I like reading the textbooks, I like learning the physiology, So it was like, I liked all that background knowledge around medicine, but there were clearly people like my husband who was in the program with me, he was a year ahead of me, but we met down there. He clearly loved medicine. And I was like, oh yeah, I can kind of see the difference. I'm not quite that, that one.

[23:12] Paul: Yeah, it's interesting. I think law and medicine are two of these things which for some people they really enjoy studying it, but don't like the jobs at all. And there's such a delay, right? You've committed this huge chunk of time, and then when you finally make it to clinical and are about to become a doctor, everything in your head must be telling you, you have to like this. You've put so much work and time into it. So, what were those early years like?

[23:44] Starting Over After Kids: Well, one thing that I recognized early on was that I knew that it was going to be a privileged position to be able to VIR because it was free, right? And it was 100% free from the Cuban government for all students from every country who was there. We still paid for our, like, travel expenses. But as far as our medical school tuition, that was entirely paid for by Cuba. Yeah. And so I actually was listening to the episode that you had done with Ali Abdaal and him saying, like, him asking other doctors, would you do this if you, you know, won the lottery?

Would you do this full-time? Most of them said no. And so for me, I realized, oh, my lottery was going to Cuba itself. You know, my lottery was the fact that I had gotten this gift that was, um, free, and that I had this chance to contribute in a way that was actually going to be a more beneficial way way than kind of being miserable as a doctor. I'm not going to be helping anybody if I'm like, hate going in every day. And so it had been a lot of time.

I mean, it was 6 years, but then again, since I had started earlier, so when I graduated, I think it was 27. Yeah, I was 27 when I graduated. And so I still felt like, you know, nothing, none of my time in Cuba was wasted. And I met my husband there. I learned Spanish. I had this incredible life-changing time of living with students from other countries and meetings, having these friendships with the students from the US, being heavily involved with the US delegation and being one of the representatives for a few of the years.

And so that was a foundational experience for me. And so I knew that that was not in vain and something is still going to come of that, even if I wasn't practicing as a clinical position.

[25:40] Paul: Did you find that more students from that program have taken alternative paths because of the lack of debt?

[25:49] Starting Over After Kids: Um, honestly, no. Most of them have continued on. So once we kind of got the hang of the students graduating and taking their exams to be able to get in to residency here, because we were all kind of, you know, learning how to do this Yeah, on our own, you know, the first graduates from there with the year that I graduated, one student graduated in 2005, but the first group of students that went from their first year through their sixth year graduated in 2007, which is the year that I arrived. And so in the beginning, it was kind of everyone learning. And so as we got better figuring out when do we take our Step exams over the summer and when we do our internships, and we had a lot of help from organizations that are here that support the students.

Once we started getting the hang of that, most of the students that come out, especially in the past, you know, good, I guess, 8, 9 years, most people are going into residency and are— sometimes they'll take a more— they can— but I guess the non-traditional thing, which unfortunately is the non-traditional thing here, is that they can go into primary care. So they can be an OB-GYN, they can go into pediatrics. You know, they can, if anything, like someone like my husband who went to a specialty, he went into critical care. That's more rare because we're not paying back all of this debt. So you can go into primary care and have, still keep that, some of that altruism that people tend to go into medical school with because you're not forced to go into a specialty just to be able to pay back all of the debt.

And so if anything, that it's a, it's, it's like the non-traditional way of doing something that most people would love if it were the traditional option here.

[27:40] Paul: Yeah, it's, um, we don't have enough time to explore all the challenges of the US healthcare system.

[27:48] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, exactly. That's a whole— well, and you know, other people are really, are probably more well suited to talk about it. But Exactly. That's its own episode.

[27:58] Paul: Yeah. I've gotten a part-time master's navigating it, trying to get self-employed health insurance. It's— I just describe it as a dumpster fire and leave it at that. But when— so did you end up doing residency or did you step away from that before then?

[28:18] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. So I chose— by the time I graduated, I really knew that I wasn't going to continue and I knew that I wasn't going to even do residency. So I chose from the beginning to not pursue residency either. So I didn't pursue residency, but I did finish all of my Step exams. There's 3 exams to take. I finished my Step exams and am certified as a foreign medical graduate, but did not pursue residency.

[28:43] Paul: Yeah, and what did you decide to do after that?

[28:49] Starting Over After Kids: So that's really where the story starts to change kind of more drastically. I mean, I thought that that was drastic up until that point, and then after that point, it started to change even more drastically. So when I graduated, I was pregnant with my daughter. And so, and I had taken these exams and I knew that I was, since I wasn't going to be going into residency, my husband was in his first year of residency for internal medicine, that I was going to stay home and care for my daughter while I started to figure out what I was going to be doing next. And so when she was born, this was 2014, and when she was born, all the options that I had thought were still kind of like, oh, you have a baby and you just, you know, keep going and it's just nothing's different.

It's like you have a puppy now and like, you have this, you know, this other like, yeah, they're there, but you can still do the same stuff. Nothing drastically changes in your life. Like, I was not ready for the change. What happened with my, with my daughter. And I think the biggest thing that it became a really prominent part of my story that I've only now started talking about because I realized that you know, I wish that it were more, more of an accessible conversation for people to have was around mental health. And so when she was born, it was kind of like an immediate drop into postpartum depression, and which kind of continued into just a generalized depression over many years.

But it was all of those factors. There was one, like, one, a book that really helped me to see why those— why that time was such a— there's like two books really helped me see why that time was a particular challenge and why that was a huge trigger for that. It's like I had, you know, just been living out of the country for 6 years. It's like coming, moving to New York and my family was in California and came coming back into this whole world technology. You know, I went down to Cuba in 2007. That's the year the iPhone was released.

So I would spend 6 years and everyone else was like zooming ahead. Yeah. And I came back like, Whoa, what happened? What is that machine? What's like— exactly, what is— how do you turn on the phone? Like, what is an iPhone?

I had no— I just didn't understand how to use any of that.

[31:12] Paul: Yeah, that's so much at once.

[31:15] Starting Over After Kids: It was a lot at once. And then not having a path. I'd been this driven person for so long. So I had gone, you know, kind of full steam ahead since 15. Changing paths, like doing, going everything, like really like 110% full steam ahead. And so when I was home and not sure of what I was going to be doing, I had really no, no plan.

It was just not a recipe for, you know, feeling positive about where I had been. And so it kind of, there was definitely this feeling of like having failed. And so feeling like, oh, I was supposed to be, like, I really should have done, I should have stayed more traditional. And I wish that I had liked it. I wish that I had loved medicine. I'm like, I wish I could be traditional that way.

It would be so much easier. It'd be so much easier if I loved medicine and I could go into it because it's right there. It's right there in front of me. And so taking this other path where you have all of these options, I think I mentioned that in talking about what I was going to talk about today with you was, like this paradox of choice, like that was really jarring. And so even things like going to a supermarket became like, whoa, there are so many options here after coming from Cuba. It's like, there are too many options.

And it's like the gift and the curse, like too many options for small-scale things and for large-scale things. And so that was a really, really big disruption. And so it took a long time to find some clarity.

[32:44] Paul: Yeah, I noticed this is a big thing of people that sort of shift paths in life. Which is they have the sense that I've sort of failed on the first path and I kind of went through this. So then you're super hesitant for that next choice, right? So like that, the paradox of choice plus the fear of like you don't want to waste another 7 years, or at least it feels like that. So it feels even more powerful. I think this held me back the first few years after quitting my job.

I was so afraid of just like creating another job for myself that I really didn't explore a lot of stuff. But a lot of it was that I just like, I didn't want to feel like a fool again.

[33:29] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, exactly. It's like people kind of looking at you like, what do you mean you spent 6 years in Cuba and you're not going to be a doctor? Yeah, there's no frame of reference to even talk about that. You know, there's definitely people who understood, but it was— it's not— that's not usually the story because here you really— there's no option to really do that.

[33:50] Paul: Yeah. And I mean, it's also sad too, because I think so many people, especially in the US, are anchored around work, men and women. And like, you had a child at a relatively young age for the US now.

[34:05] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[34:07] Paul: And I imagine people were still asking you, oh, are you going to stay home?

[34:12] Starting Over After Kids: Right.

[34:13] Paul: Yeah. As if working is the default.

[34:16] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, yeah. So I did get— I got both sides. I got some of the, you know, it's, so what are you going to do next if you're not going to go into clinical practice? Okay, that's fine. Like, they could accept that it was not going to be the thing, but like, what else are you going to do? And there was definitely on the other side of, oh, it's this really great opportunity to be able to stay home with your daughter.

It was like, I could teach her Spanish. I've spoken Spanish to her. So I have a son now also who's, um, who's 6. She's 8. I can speak Spanish with them, which is raising them as bilingually as I can, having not been a native speaker, but being fluent. And that's a big priority for me.

So there were a lot of things, but I think one of the biggest pieces that gets talked about, but kind of like off on the side, but like it cannot be ignored. Living in a society that assigns value with money and reimbursement, it cannot be overlooked the psychological weight of being a stay-at-home mother who is not earning and who also left an option to earn in this prestigious way and to have the social status. And, you know, mothers in general do have kind of like a status level and by, you know, the there is no support structure for stay-at-home mothers financially, nor any other way, that we can't overlook the psychological weight that that has on women and on any stay-at-home parent, regardless of gender.

[35:57] Paul: Yeah. So how did you start? I mean, did you find people or communities or resources to talk to during that time? It sounds like it was a pretty tough period for you.

[36:10] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, there really, there were places that I probably could have reached out to more, but I didn't really know how to access those at the time. And so it was just kind of like being in the trenches with, you know, my two kids, a 2-year-old and a newborn and my husband in training because he did 3 years of residency and then 3 years of clinical specialty training. And so he came, you know, just finished his last, I guess, yeah, his first year of attending was during COVID actually. First year of attending was during COVID And so it was just very much in the trenches. But, you know, the thing that got me through a lot of that time was reading. And so there were a lot of books that really helped me.

And so I was able to still feed my intellectual curiosity with a lot of reading and following those academic strands of, of thought that I had developed and a lot of interest around mental health and learning about depression. And so that really gave me a lot of context. And so that became something that became very strong for me. And I was able to see that that was an interest of mine outside of just my own story, but that it's really important for me, for people to understand that whatever kind of thing you are going through in your personal life, that there is some larger context to it. And so there's a lot that, like, ideas around work and, you know, like you thinking like, oh, am I the only one kind of thinking about these things? You start sharing your story, write a book, and people are like, oh, wow, no, all of our conversations are part of this broader thing.

And it gives a lot of relief to know that you are kind of part of something that's, that's bigger. You're within the flow of, you know, like a social and a cultural tide, and you're not unique. It's like, it's helpful to know that you're not unique in having those struggles. And so that was really what gave me the most relief, is recognizing like, I'm not unique for, for having such a hard time right now, um, because it's challenging and there's a lot of, you know, social context that make it challenging and a lot of beliefs about what I'm supposed to be doing since I had been this early bloomer. That was the thing is like I had been this early bloomer and had always been, had a lot of like praise thrown on me about, oh wow, you're starting things so early. You're going to do these huge things.

You're going to be like this superstar in who knows what. You're going to do something and it has to be big because you have to take advantage of having all of these opportunities early on. To then do this grand thing. And so coming out on the other side feeling like I wasn't doing this grand thing already, you know, by 30, it was like, oh, I, I feel like I'm supposed to be farther along than this.

[39:00] Paul: It's such a hard thing for people, especially people on paths that have taken some sort of prestigious or successful, seen as successful path.

[39:11] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[39:11] Paul: Because there's the, feeling like, oh, I've kind of like failed or something. But then there's also this really confusing thing I noticed a lot of people navigate, which is like, I shouldn't be complaining. Right?

[39:27] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[39:27] Paul: And I think that's where people start short-circuiting. And they're not able to reflect because they tell themselves, oh, I should be happy. I know I have enough, I have resources and Like, I think part of what drove me to write my book is to sort of just say, like, I think everyone deserves, like, permission to reflect and not feel good about their path. Like, it, it doesn't matter what your circumstances are. Human suffering is universal.

[39:57] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. Yeah. And it actually, what you said reminded me of something that I thought about in, in thinking about talking today was like, at some point also wanting permission to not be exceptional. And like, that was— it's, um, so it's interesting, like, learning to be on, on Twitter and also learning kind of is a part of a culture of like having to still kind of express and portray yourself as being exceptional in some way. And, you know, again, I think it's, it's a kind of a very American cultural, culturally ingrained thing here that you are supposed to always kind of be in the lead and be this exceptional, like, force. And some point I kind of realized, like, I just kind of, like, want to be regular.

I kind of just want to, like, if anything, I'm on the other side. I kind of just want a job. Yeah, I just want to, like, want a regular job and be able to explore these creative things on the side. Like, um, I don't necessarily— like, it's okay to not be, like, exceptional. Like, there's so much exceptionality in kind of being regular, like having my family and having the kids and teaching them all of these things and having my family come to visit. Like the kind of ordinary regular things are things to still be celebrated.

[41:15] Paul: Yeah, there's this default pull of the world, I think, which is towards more, towards doing your best, towards extreme accomplishment. And I think it works well for some people and it can be useful for some people at some ages, right, to push themselves. But generally most people sort of figure out it doesn't actually lead to like extended periods of satisfaction with one's life. And I think that's where the problem is because what it means is you have to develop your own sort of philosophy, principles, and operating system. Because you can't really copy paste like what the culture tells you you should do. For most people, it works really well for like a small percentage of people, but probably less than 5% of people.

What— were there any books or ideas that helped you start to shift that mindset and thinking?

[42:14] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, I think there were two. I mean, there was, there was a, there were probably several that really were helpful in giving me that context, like I said, about realizing I'm kind of part of like a bigger thing. Um, one was a book, um, Lost Connections by Johann Hari, and he just wrote another— I was going to recommend to you another really excellent book called Stolen Focus, um, and his book was about the lost connections that people have in their lives to meaningful work and to meaningful relationships and to status and to nature, like these kinds of things that create the circumstances for good mental health. He's writing specifically around depression that create the circumstances for good mental health.

And when you have those connections that are lost, which I realized were a lot of the connections that I kind of lost like one fell swoop When I came back from Cuba, it's kind of no, it's no mystery. So why some people would struggle, because those are things that we all need to sustain ourselves and sustain each other. And so it makes sense that people struggle when they don't have those protective factors in that way. Like those definitely have an influence on our mental health.

[43:40] Paul: And it would have been weird if you didn't struggle.

[43:45] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, I mean, that's true. And it's true.

[43:49] Paul: So much at once, like location change, family change, probably hormonal change from the postpartum as well, and status changes and like technology and environment. It's like, wow, that is a lot.

[44:04] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, it's like, it's a lot. Like in one fell swoop. So that actually takes me to the second book, which I guess, yeah, it was kind of the time between reading that first one, Lost Connections, and like the next one. But the next one was Life Is in the Transitions by Bruce Feiler. And I've talked so much about this book. I'm like, Bruce, if you're watching this, I've talked so much about this book.

I'm like evangelizing his book every time that I— every chance that I can get. But his book was so helpful because it gave this language that was so apt for what had happened. And so a term that he used was lifequake. And he's like, there's a lot of disruptors that happen and disruptors can be positive or, you know, more negative, but things that you kind of voluntarily go into, like changing work voluntarily, having a child, getting married, those are still disruptors, things that will change your normal life path. But sometimes because of how many disruptors there are, or the timing that they— it's like it had an analogy of being like a pileup, you know, sometimes there's a 3, 4, 5-part pileup. And when there's a huge pileup like that, he termed this a lifequake, which like what I heard then just made perfect total sense.

It was total like perfect, perfect term for it. It was, it was great because I'm like, oh, that's what had happened. It was a lifequake where you recognize like everything that you kind of thought was happening is like flipped upside down. It's like a complete shift in what's happening to your life. And like there's a before that happened and there's an after that happened and your life is never really the same after that happened. And that it actually— one thing I got from that book was that it really is, um, you really normalized one, how often this happens in people's lives.

Yeah. How many people people have across their lifespan. So it's not just like, oh, one time and maybe— I mean, if you get through life with one lifequake, then you're doing pretty good. But the disruptors themselves, disruptors will happen throughout our lives. And we actually need skills to learn how to navigate them. That it's not— we shouldn't— doesn't have to be left up to chance.

Like either maybe you might completely fall off or you might be okay, that they're actually skills since it is something that is so common and it's so frequent, um, that there's really skills for that. And what I think helped was that he normalized how long it tends to take from a lifequake, how long a transition really takes. And, you know, he said, I think it was like 5 to 6 years, like people that he had interviewed, generally people said it's like 5 or 6 years that it takes to kind of transition through a lifequake in that way. And I was like, oh, that makes sense also. Like, yeah, that's about the time that it had been before, you know, because my kids were around that, you know, that age at that time when I was reading it.

[47:00] Paul: So he would say, and this is something I think about a lot, so many people are like, when is the single moment things turned? And I just don't really buy that explanation. Maybe that is for some people. What would Bruce say about like the emergence of what lifequakes— does it take a certain time to realize, oh, this shift has started?

[47:22] Starting Over After Kids: Like, it doesn't seem like you're entering one.

[47:25] Paul: Well, it, it doesn't seem like you can be fully aware of them as they're happening. It's like only upon reflection can you be like, oh yes, of course. Like me looking back 6, 7 years now, it's like, oh, I see what was emerging. But in the moment, I was like, I had no idea.

[47:42] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, you're like, what is this chaos? What is this strange thing? I don't know what is going on. Like, what is happening to my life here? That's a good point because I don't recall anything from the book about noticing when you're in one. It is kind of like, oh, what I just went through?

Oh, that was like a huge— like, that was a set of disruptors. I see why it happened all at that time. But it is more like upon reflection. But what it did remind me that I, um, that I really resonated with in the book was about, um, when you're coming out of one, and he called it the first normal moment. And when you recognize like you're doing something and you're like, huh, this is actually feels kind of like a, like normal, like kind of back to normalcy. And I remember there'd be a few times me starting to reach out to people, um, a class I was interested in auditing at Columbia.

And an epidemiologist was like, I'm really interested in your work. And so it'd be really great to hear about your work and come kind of tag along with you and see what you're working on. And thinking about, oh, I can actually get involved in courses online. There were these things that to other people would not have seemed so momentous. But when you're coming out of a earthquake, those little actions, like taking agency in that way, that is really momentous and that kind of propels more normal moments. And then eventually you're like, oh, I'm kind of getting in a new groove.

So that term was another one that, that really helped.

[49:16] Paul: What are some of the other experiments you've done? I know writing online, other creative stuff, and like drawing, uh, you've done.

[49:24] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[49:25] Paul: Um, how have you thought about like trying to do experiments or try different things to kind of lean into that new mode you're experiencing?

[49:35] Starting Over After Kids: I think that now I'm— it's actually kind of on reflection now I realize, um, that I want to be even more intentional about like, oh, these are actual— it's kind of the things that people had been saying that I recognize that people who are talking about this very much in relation to work. It's like I take it as work but also life, you know, kind of thing, doing these small experiments and then reflecting on it afterwards, um, I really understand the value in taking these things that are very well defined and trying these things out that are very well defined and like purposely giving myself constraints to try something in this constrained timeline or in this particular manner.

And so I think the, um, So there were kind of those, I guess you would call it like traditional ways, just leaning into, let me dip my toe into this academic side again and like audit a course here and see what people are doing around academia. Because it's kind of like coming full circle. When I graduated 19, some of my professors like, oh, you got to go and do a PhD. And I'm like, I'm 19, like, what, who am I going to be teaching? I come out of like whatever, 20 25, 26, like I should not be teaching anybody with my age just because I have the PhD. I know, no offense to anybody who has done a PhD who's young, I know several of them, but for me it felt, it didn't feel like it was, um, that it was right.

Um, and but I've always been so drawn to academia, so I keep coming back to that, like, oh, maybe I should go back into, um, academia. And, uh, seeing what were you hesitant at first to do that?

[51:14] Paul: Like, were you hesitant to reach out to academia because that was sort of like the world you left behind? Like, medicine is so academic-driven.

[51:23] Starting Over After Kids: It was because— so I think one of the connections that I was making, one of the interests that I had when I was coming out was this interest between urban health, urban planning, and public health. It's like a connection in that. Sphere. And one of the things that I was doing was, is this something that I want to study or something that I want to practice? Because that's kind of been my dilemma always, is like, is it something that I just want to study? Is it something that I want to practice?

And I know that there should be this, this middle ground where you're studying and practicing, but I didn't really have any examples of people who were kind of—

[52:00] Paul: you don't want to wait 6 years next time to figure that out, right?

[52:04] Starting Over After Kids: So that was the piece, is like, I keep coming back to like, let me just get into something that has constraints. Academia has this thing that has, you know, these big constraints, but then I'm like, I don't want to be coming down, you know, 6, 7 years down the line and be like, great, and now what again? Yeah, so I feel like I need to do these smaller experiments, um, but it's kind of a double-edged sword because you either want to get into something that gives you really clear constraints that you are not feeling like you're just kind of in the middle of the ocean, um, as you know, I feel like you allude to a lot of like having these options, you've gotta create some limits for yourself.

Um, but there's also this fear of doing it on the other side of doing these experiments that are smaller, because there is something about it feeling like it takes longer, you know, like it takes longer because you are the exploring that I didn't do at 19, basically, when I graduated, which would have been around the time that I would have graduated from high school. If I would have gone all the way through. The exploring I didn't do then is kind of the exploring that I'm doing now.

[53:11] Paul: Yeah.

[53:12] Starting Over After Kids: And that is not— it's definitely a limiting belief, but I know that that's one that I am not the only one who shares that. But it's like, that is okay for 19-year-olds, but like, people who are not 19 at other stages of their lives way past me. How do you build in exploring things that may be kind of very different? How do you build in exploration in a way that is kind of socially acceptable? And so that's what I'm starting to learn from people like you and people that you talk with, because I'm realizing, oh, people are actually doing this, like creating structure around how to explore in this way when you're kind of way down the line?

[54:02] Paul: Yeah, it's, it's really hard because there's a couple components. I've tried to name stuff like this, like I call it the long, slow, stupid, fun way. And the, the challenge of exploring things as an adult is because you're smart enough to know what it feels like to know how to do things, which means if you learn anything new, you feel really silly. And then if somebody asks you, what's your plan? You really have no idea. So then you're fumbling around trying to come up with an explanation.

You're really, you're feeling uncomfortable. And then you're like, I might as well just quit because I don't want to feel this way.

[54:45] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[54:45] Paul: Um, and I've learned to try and keep leaning into that because one, One of my goals is I have not seen a lot of alive and energized and connected men who are older in my life. And so my bet is that continuing to do these things now is probably the only way to get in that state, which is important to me. But yeah, we have this the should brain of like, the smart thing to do is this, the smart thing to do is this, to get a job. And like, I don't know, for me, like money, what makes sense, the sensible things, I really deprioritize under like what feels most alive or energized. And maybe I'll go broke doing this, but at least At least it feels like a bet I want to actually engage in.

[55:47] Starting Over After Kids: I like how you said that. Yeah.

[55:49] Paul: What are some of the constraints? What are some of the constraints you've given yourself?

[55:56] Starting Over After Kids: So one is getting— well, there's the experiments piece, which I guess there's more to say about the experiments pieces. I recognize getting into communities that are already established. And so the first kind of place that I dipped my toe into was the Building a Second Brain course with Tiago Forte. And that was— yeah, so that was a great— it was a great start. It was like, oh, this is wonderful. I was like, I had been doing these kinds of things on my own, being interested in like information management to keep track of my own reading.

As I was, you know, home with, um, with the kids, with like all of my like connections of how things were relating to each other and how I ended up at this topic when I started at this topic. Like those are things that are really interesting to me. And I found this, there's this whole community of people who are interested in like personal knowledge management. I had no idea like this. I wanna be a part of this crew and I wanna be around this. And so I started with that.

And I realized getting into a community in that way is so valuable. I mean, it makes entire sense why cohort-based courses have been so popular because it's like when people go to a college, it's like you're also buying into the community and you're buying into the network and it makes it so much easier. Kind of a lot of things can be, a lot of assumptions can be made when you find somebody else who's also in it. You're like, oh, okay, we kind of already have some frame of connection. So that was great. And there was a lot of overlap into the Ship 30 for 30 community.

And so I started Ship 30 for 30 just this year. That felt like a really big jump though, because I feel like I was kind of more kind of in my own world. Yes, because I had not been on social media. Like I had not been— I mean, when I came back in, you know, from Cuba, it's like, What's going on here? What is going on? Because I remember specifically leaving before Cuba, had like an Nokia flip phone, leaving before Cuba, and it was— I remember that it would be seen as vain to take a picture of yourself because you have to do it with an actual camera.

First of all, that would have been weird to walk around with an actual camera taking a picture of yourself, like a whole thing. So, but I remember that feeling of like, oh, it's vain. Like no one took pictures of themselves. And I come back, I'm like, oh, well, that's what you're supposed to do is take a picture of yourself. I don't know if I can get into this. And like, this is really strange.

This is a really strange culture shift right here. I don't know if I can, if I can do this. And so it took me a long time to even kind of dip my toe into it. So I definitely had not been anywhere near Twitter, but being around people who were publishing things publicly on Twitter and like the being in that space that was really positive and people were encouraging and supportive of each other. Like it was just such a different experience from what I feel like most people had had. And I'm like, oh, this is actually something I really, I want to be around and I want to be a part of.

I can see that. I can see why people join into this. It's like creating your own little positive positivity club over here, which I thought was a good way of kind of harnessing some of that. I think as far as— oh, the last thing after that was through Ship 3030. Then I found Laura Evans Hill, who does the Pencil Pirates Atomic Visuals drawing course. And that was totally unexpected.

I had no idea I enjoyed drawing and learning to make visuals. Like, I had no idea that was a thing. And so now I'm like, oh great, I want to be part of this too. I don't know where that's going to take me. But I remember the interview you had with Laurence Yeoh and like how you talked about him putting his writing and his visuals together and how that really makes, you know, it's like, I love being able to learn to do things for myself like that. And so I really wanted to have that kind of that outlet.

But as far as now working goes, I do feel like I'm actually on the other side of like not wanting to start off with like monetizing a creative, um, path because it feels so much in its infancy, like so in its infancy that there isn't some— there isn't a there there, you know, there's a there there yet, and that there will be. And I'm kind of like, I don't want to like a, you know, talk about the Einstein job. It's like Einstein job, it's like something you can do and that's engaging and that's you know, interesting. But I, I can do a lot of things that don't need to be, um, this— like, have so much riding on it, like I feel like my kind of creative exploration has. Um, and kind of learn skills, you know, learn a lot of new skills that I feel like would be really beneficial to help a lot of people out. I might be— I want to be around the creative people.

I want to be around people who are doing it and like be I'm fascinated to learn about what they're doing. I'm like, how can I help you? How can I, what do I need to learn to like help you out? And those are the skills that I feel like I actually want to like look for.

[01:01:15] Paul: That's amazing.

[01:01:16] Starting Over After Kids: And so, but as far as constraints also around time and things like I, at home, I have my kids are in school now, but just with COVID was a huge, you know, the big example. And then even going back now and there was, you know, still some, stoppages in the beginning of the school year, that I really need work to be remote. You know, I hadn't been so clear on that it needs to be remote until after COVID and being home with my, my kids.

[01:01:44] Paul: Yeah, that's, that's such a powerful mode you're in. Like, I would say like protect that. Yeah, I don't know if you've read Stephen Cope's book, but I write about it in my book. He calls it the great work of your life is basically finding those things. It seems like you found them. And I think a lot of creative people— I think most people are creative, but that's kind of another point.

But most creative people have this sense that like they need— once they find the thing, it's like, then I need to like protect that thing. And I think when people have this idea, I need to monetize, I need to make money from this, they often will like short circuit this curiosity or like level out and plateau and like start selling a thing that is like just a local minimum and like the potential was far beyond that. So that's amazing.

[01:02:39] Starting Over After Kids: Um, what I'm also still very interested in the ideas and so I, I wanna continue to explore. Um, I wanna continue to explore and this might just be because I'm, I'm at this place and I don't quite know all the examples of what how people are doing it, but I want to continue to explore broadly and not feel like I have to be the expert or like be, you know, have this like exceptional thing that I can like then teach you. I'm like, I'm still very much learning. So I kind of want to be in a place where I can still learn with people along the way.

[01:03:17] Paul: Yeah, I think a big thing for— I mean, I had the same impulse towards my writing early on. It was like, I did a couple experiments to try and make money, but it was just totally uninteresting to me. And I had the sense I need to figure out how to make money doing other things and then increase the amount of time I can focus on this writing. And then one thing I just did to try and get some feedback, which I think there is a trap of like not leaning into creative projects that would actually like be rewarding. I think writing my book was probably the most, like, rewarding project I've ever done in my life. Do I wish I did it earlier, though?

I don't know. But I listened to people talking to me through conversations and waited kind of for the signals from the universe and like just my gut instinct. And that's when I wrote it. It wasn't to try and like make money. I really just wanted to write it for the sake of itself.

[01:04:19] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[01:04:19] Paul: Um, and I'm kind of doing the same thing with this podcast now. Again, like podcasts are terrible businesses, but they're, but they're very fun and rewarding. Um, personally, and I get so excited by paths like yours. I just wanna share them.

[01:04:40] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. I mean, the, it's, I'm so glad that you're doing what you're doing because we really need just examples. Like, it isn't so— it's not like rocket science necessarily to hear about these things. It's just you need a lot of examples since there isn't a textbook way. You kind of need as many varied examples as, um, as possible. But you know what reminds me of one more book that was really helpful in this, which gave me that terminology about being an early bloomer and a late bloomer, which is called Late Bloomers.

By Rich Karlgaard, and he talks about this obsession that we have in our culture here in the US at least about early achievement, and that early achievement is always better and always preferred, and that there's so many examples in history of people who we would term as late bloomers who kind of had these winding routes in various ways and towards some, you know, later time in their life, not before they were 25, later time in their life, found things that they really felt like they want to go kind of full on for, contributed in a very meaningful way to their community, to themselves, to the world, and what we would now term as late bloomers. But those stories are not celebrated. As much as the early bloomers, the, you know, savants of the, of the world who can all have this, you know, hugely successful thing by the time they're, you know, 23 or 24. Yeah.

[01:06:17] Paul: And the most interesting stories just don't sell, I think, or don't sell at scale. I think the internet does allow so many more voices to be heard. And I think this is why I always am encouraging people to share, because there might be people like you, you that just want to like pick one piece from their story and then remix it into their own life.

[01:06:39] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[01:06:39] Paul: But even when people ask me about my story, they're— they always ask leading questions like, what was the big moment, the big aha, the big turning point, and all these big narratives.

[01:06:52] Starting Over After Kids: And it's like, yeah, you're like, it's not that exciting. You're like, I woke up one day and I still woke up the next day and I woke up the day after that.

[01:07:00] Paul: Yeah. And there's also just this sense of like, I haven't really figured it out yet.

[01:07:07] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[01:07:07] Paul: I sort of—

[01:07:08] Starting Over After Kids: That's a very scary thing to say. That's not really like, that's not celebrated. You're like, I haven't figured it out.

[01:07:13] Paul: Right.

[01:07:13] Starting Over After Kids: Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to have figured this out.

[01:07:18] Paul: And I feel like I started over from scratch really. Like I really feel like the person that did my undergraduate education and the 10 years of work in grad school was like an alien that like temporarily took over my body, did all those things. And now I'm like back as like a 17-year-old again. And I'm like fumbling around. Um, I have friends who are like crushing it and seem to enjoy their paths. And it's like, yeah, kind of wish that would, I could have done that, but like, I completely understand.

[01:07:54] Starting Over After Kids: I completely understand. I wish— oh yeah, I have chosen— if there was a traditional path to like do this one thing and like have this straight success at something, would I have chosen this, this other path? I mean, I'd like to say that I would, but I can't say, you know, that pull is incredibly strong. But I recognize that there is this— it leaves so many people out It leaves the majority of people out, I guess, is the thing. And it leaves out the amount of contribution that people can have to small and big things. And the mental health consequences of people limiting themselves because they think they're supposed to do this huge thing.

And so they're like, I'm just not going to do anything, or I'm going to like— or they're struggling so hard that they can't recognize how much they have to contribute. That seems like a really big loss to me for society if people are— if the damage is so much that people are kind of counting themselves out when they could be contributing so much in meaningful ways that don't have to be public, even that don't have to be on this grand scale, but there's so much contribution and health and vitality even for their own families. That we're missing out on. And I feel like I do not want to continue that. So that's especially around the stories around mental health. I have friends who I knew from before who knew that I left school early.

And for them from the outside, they very much saw me as, oh, Aida just crushed everything. You like just went in there, she blew through stuff. And that even my path right now, like where I'm at right now, like she's got these kids and she got a husband. She's doing it. She has made it. And I remember the first time talking about my mental health struggles with one of my friends.

She's like, well, I had no idea. And most of them had no idea. And she was like, I thought, like, I was always jealous of your path. I was always jealous of your path for having just checked off all these boxes. And I thought that I was struggling. I really wish I could have done this like you.

And I know that I'm not the only one become something that I'm really, you know, passionate about, helping people see that there's— that's a really big aspect. Um, and even just to normalize that there's a— that there's a big break in people's paths, especially as a parent, being a stay-at-home parent. There's, there's big breaks in people's paths that I don't think that we're doing anybody a service by trying to kind of paint over it and like make it and market it in a very tidy way. Um, like, I was a stay-at-home parent, but while I was a stay-at-home parent, I was the president of the PTA, and I did this, and I volunteered in this, and I did this thing, and I had this side hustle on the side, and I had this Etsy store, and like, I did all of this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but you were a parent at home with 10 kids. Like, that's a lot.

[01:10:55] Paul: That's enough.

[01:10:56] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot. And like, I want that. I want to contribute as as vulnerable as it is, I want to contribute to normalizing that more.

[01:11:09] Paul: Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's a lot of what I try to talk about from work too, is like, I don't know, I'm still figuring out. I've never done like anything too impressive. Um, other people look at it as impressive, but like behind the scenes, there's always been a lot of things I've had to deal with. My whole journey is really about letting go of my past. And there's a real deep sadness.

And I think I'm in a good place with it now. But it's— there's like a, almost like a burial you have to perform with your past identity. And I think it's so hard because there are so many good memories in that past identity. And there are the painful ones, and those are easy to understand and point out. But like, I think it's so hard to let go of these identities because there are good things that happen. Did— have you done anything to sort of deal with the loss of that past identity of like overachiever, successful, exceptional person, MD grad?

[01:12:21] Starting Over After Kids: That's a really good question because that's something that came up in the, in that book, Life Is in the Transitions, also about like having like, it really, it's been a meaningful moment when people have done something that kind of helps to close that loop. I haven't done anything that I can really point to, but what I feel like takes the place of that is actually just talking about that more openly. Before, there wasn't— it was kind of like I was still portraying myself as that to more people. And now I've just stopped trying to portray myself as that anymore. You know, it's like—

[01:13:06] Paul: I know writing helped with that, sort of, but it was so—

[01:13:13] Starting Over After Kids: since that was still so early, it felt like you know, I was just trying to learn how to be on Twitter and learn how to be public in general. And, um, the, the tweet that I eventually did put as my, um, pinned tweet, which had like a, you know, a timeline of the early successes in that way and like the struggle that I had afterwards, there was such a huge response to it like all positive. It's like a huge response to it that it was a little overwhelming to share your story about something and have people— like, I'm glad it was all positive, but have you share your story and people are really, um, receptive to it, but that you realize, oh, I'm not quite ready to be that open. But it was at least that first step. And so it kind of, it kind of comes in waves of like you step out and you get the response and you kind of pull back and you like step out and get the response and like pull back.

And so I recognize like, that's just part of it, but it did really solidify that there is a choice that I can make about like, what conversation do I want to contribute to? And one of those conversations is around mental health and normalizing mental health and around normalizing non-traditional paths and like winding paths in life. And so I'm going to make the choice to share more. And so I wasn't quite at that place when I first started Ship 30, but like each step has been a little bit more making it more comfortable and recognizing that I can direct my narrative now in a way like, do I want these kinds of conversations to be part of my life? And do I want— like, this is kind of what I want to do all the time. I want to have conversations with people about their, about their stories, about their past.

And whenever I meet somebody, I'm so interested. Even the academics that I follow, I'm always interested in like, oh, but what happened in your life that got you interested? Like, I really want to know.

[01:15:17] Paul: Amazing.

[01:15:18] Starting Over After Kids: What got you interested in this? So if I want that to be a part of my life, I don't want that to be like a little side thing. Like, I want that to be okay for people to talk about these kinds of things and not have it be so scandalous. Like, there's nothing that happened in my life that is so scandalous that you can't talk about it. It's all stuff that everyone else goes through. But the only way that we start normalizing it is by actually talking about it and releasing some of that stigma actively.

[01:15:48] Paul: Yeah, you wrote, this was hard to write, but it's done. And so is my fear of the topic. It sounds like there might be still a little fear of writing about it, but like, yeah, was there some sort of like processing done just by like publishing it?

[01:16:06] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, um, and I'll link up to it.

[01:16:10] Paul: It's a, it's so amazing. I think, um, it's so simple and direct and powerful. And I think like 5 or 6 people tagged me and were like, have you seen this, Paul?

[01:16:23] Starting Over After Kids: Really? That's interesting. They're like, it's probably something you should talk to. You're like, I've done that. Yeah, that's why I found you. I'm like, if you hadn't found me, I would have found you.

Um, so it was, it was just one of those steps. It was one of those steps forward, you know. It was kind of like, it was like two steps back right after that. It's like immediately two steps back, but then there was, you know, one other step forward and two steps back. And even thinking about today, I'm like, am I willing to start talking about, um, about the mental health aspect, because I've heard in your other conversations is like some of what I say overlaps with other people, but this is one aspect that I feel like I want to also include. And it's, it's all been iterative for sure.

It's not been like, oh, I have no— like, it's just like you said about it would have been weird if I hadn't struggled. Like, it would be a little strange if I wasn't a little nervous about sharing, you know, something that is so, um, you know, seen as such a taboo topic. Um, but it's— I want— I'm like making decisions every time to err on that side, and it has really helped me. And what I hope is that it also helps other people who, you know, may not ever talk about it publicly, but just know that there are other people who on the outside look all shiny and may not be as shiny as you think.

[01:17:46] Paul: Yeah, it's, it's so interesting with the writing. I had a similar experience in 2015. I had written something about my challenges with Lyme disease. And for some reason, I just like couldn't put it out there. I felt really bad. I felt like I shouldn't be complaining.

And then I just like let it rip emotionally and like published it. I put it on Quora, so it was like still hidden from like anyone I would know that would find it.

[01:18:18] Starting Over After Kids: Exactly.

[01:18:19] Paul: Maybe that's what Twitter is like. Twitter is still like a safe haven from most people I know.

[01:18:25] Starting Over After Kids: Oh, I don't know.

[01:18:27] Paul: I think some of my relatives do lurk, but like nobody ever says anything.

[01:18:31] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. Yeah, um, that's a good point. Like, you want to publicly, but you want to hide it. You want to hide it.

[01:18:39] Paul: I received a flood of comments from people from all around the world saying like, oh, thank you for sharing this. And it sort of just told me like, a reason not to share because people might make fun of you is like not enough to like hold people back from sharing, which is why I want to help so many people share. Like, you may not feel like— like, I mean, I look to people like you for wisdom, um, and you might look at me and be like, you've been writing about this for years, you should know what it's like.

[01:19:13] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, that's me writing about this already. You got the book done already. You got the podcast. You got the microphone.

[01:19:21] Paul: You could buy a microphone too. Um, when you write something like, life is not linear and moving fast doesn't equal moving forward with intention. Like, to me, that's so many things. That's creativity, that's wisdom, that's reflection, that's thoughtfulness. And it's like something that makes me think too. And like, these are the things that are so powerful about sharing and finding people Um, and yeah, I think a lot of it is just giving us permission to be ourselves.

And then like you, I think there is so much that can be offered from people that are willing to put in that reflection and trying to find a more connected state to themselves.

[01:20:08] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah. But they know that there's always gonna be some, you know, there's always gonna be like a lot of parts of ourselves. But what I was really worried about in the beginning was like, is there a place to be able to share these sides of yourself and also a place to be seen as professional. And do those things mix? And not having had the experience of seeing professional people talk about those things, like the message is that there's not really a place to be vulnerable and to be open and be talking about things that are challenging. And then also to be seen as very professional because we see professionalism as being like unflawed, always very tidy.

Everything's kind of together. And I can't imagine that that's actually the truth. It's just more like the image you have to show of yourself to be seen as confident and professional. And I am always interested when people share, you know, who are not— who are professional, are successful in whatever field they're in, and then also share this other side. There's actually one thing that I would want to share that was helpful too, was a podcast, and he ended up writing a book also by the same name called The Hilarious World of Depression by John Lowe. Miss John Lowe.

And it's a podcast, it's comedians who you— some people had heard of, some people I hadn't heard of, but comedians who are really successful in their work but also struggle a lot with depression and anxiety and have talked about it there. And it's like, oh, this is the kind of thing I want to hear more about. People who are, you know, working and doing their regular lives and are not, you know, complete messes, but also just share like, hey, we've also struggled with these things. So that podcast was one that was also a helpful resource.

[01:22:13] Paul: Yeah. And I think it's this just hangover from this very rigid, industrial, standardized economy and world we're coming out of. I don't think people want this like stoic professionalism. I do think sometimes there's this misleading, like, line of like, be yourself. Which I do think does lead some young people astray when they don't understand like some of the costs of just like sort of like putting anything out there.

[01:22:45] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[01:22:46] Paul: But I talked to, I talked to this one executive, he was promoted to like CEO and I'm like, do you realize if you just like, he's like, I need to like build a following online and like build a brand around this. I was like, do you realize if you just like shared what it felt like getting promoted and like what you're scared of and what you're excited about that you'd like. There's still such a gap in some worlds, like sharing that vulnerability. If you actually did that, you would get so much authentic following and yeah, like people would really want to actually hear about and follow. People would be excited to work for you. It might change the trajectory of your company, but like people just won't do it.

Like we, we just have these internal scripts that say we can't do these things. People like us don't do things like this. It's like the inverse of what Seth Godin says.

[01:23:36] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah.

[01:23:38] Paul: Um, but I think it's changing and, um, I think there's a way to be thoughtful, reflective, open, and, uh, also professional because if you're a pro that you know how to do those vulnerable.

[01:23:54] Starting Over After Kids: And you do those things even having those feelings and even having those struggles. You still show up and you still commit to things that you say you're going to commit to. You still get work done even through challenges. It's like, that is something that I'm coming to understand is like, oh, that's professionalism. Like I say I'm going to do these things and I'm going to follow this particular path here, and even having challenges, you still show up and you do it, you know? It's like, and you can talk about and access resources and get help to make sure you can fulfill on what you say you're going to do.

Like, those things are included, you know, in professionalism. And like, my idea is like, professionals in other areas, um, don't have the illusion that they're doing it alone. It's like, no, they know how to get the resources and the support that they need to make something happen.

[01:24:50] Paul: You put this question in to talk about, does the world of ideas and conversations count? So I think, I think it's interesting because if I had to define like, what is my work, this is definitely like part of it. Does it lead to like paychecks directly? Definitely not. But like indirectly, maybe. I think what like sharpened my sense of like what was going on with my writing was all these conversations, but it never, like, made sense that, like, oh, I'm going to do all these conversations and write a book.

It was very organic. Is the world of, like, ideas and conversation one you want to partake in? And, like, what do you mean when you say, does it count?

[01:25:31] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, I think it's in the sense of, does it count to have it be your income? I guess is the thing. It's like knowing how this actually— people who do these things, like, who are people who actually do the work and kind of in this world of ideas? Like, okay, there's academics and there's people who write for a living. And I think the struggle is, since I came from something that was very clear-cut as far as very hands-on work.

[01:26:09] Paul: Yeah.

[01:26:10] Starting Over After Kids: And is it okay to do work that's, um, not as hands-on, I guess, you know? But I think it also answers the question of it doesn't have to be— it still is going to be a part of my life, and so it's gonna be part of something that I want to, um, you know, have these conversations with people all the time. And I do in my regular life, and, and I want to have them in a way that you're like— you're doing also. But does that have to be my source of income? I don't think so. It doesn't have to feel like there's so much riding on it to like— And I think it was just an assumption, me coming into kind of the Twitter world in the beginning and being in Ship 30 where there are people who are kind of farther along in developing their ideas and using their ideas as also a source of income.

And realizing I'm actually, I'm just not in that place. Yet. And so wanting to incorporate that into my life, but that it still is going to be kind of on the, on the side getting developed along the way.

[01:27:12] Paul: That's amazing. Well, I hope you keep leaning into these worlds. I think I have a lot to learn from you. What do you want to leave with people listening to this? Where should they connect with you? Where do you anywhere you want to send them to learn more?

[01:27:29] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, I think Twitter is definitely the best place for now. That's where, you know, I've been kind of on a little vacation while my family's visiting right now, but that's where I'm kind of putting energy, and I will be joining on the Ship 30 for 30 August cohort. So like, maybe I'll be able to start writing about more of these things now.

[01:27:51] Paul: Amazing.

[01:27:52] Starting Over After Kids: Twitter, yeah, Aida M. Alston. And yeah, definitely, I would want to, I would want to recommend those books and the podcast that we mentioned, put those in the notes for people. They've been really influential for me. I want to make sure that people check them out also.

[01:28:09] Paul: Amazing. Well, it was fantastic talking with you today. I really appreciate you sharing your story and putting it out there for other people, parents, people taking weird paths, unconventional paths, etc.

[01:28:24] Starting Over After Kids: Yeah, thank you very much. I mean, one thing I want to say is also thank you because your book— I mean, that's what I meant when I said, when I tweeted about it the other day, it was like, your book really, seeing it from someone who's around my age, is really powerful. It's like I otherwise I had read stories of people who have kind of on the other side. Yeah, you know, to kind of figure it out and they're kind of writing in a more reflective way, or people who are talking about other people's stories. But seeing someone who's like my age who's also being okay with trying to figure it out and still putting yourself out there so much when you had already had this track record of being very traditional— like, I feel like yours is even more, more even like risky in some way, like you were already down the path and like had to, you know, really veer.

And putting yourself out there and being so generous, like, as soon as I like say, write something about your, you know, book, you're like, oh great, we should definitely have a conversation about it. And I'm like, oh wonderful, I'll do that. And you're like, do you want to come to the podcast? Oh my God, thank you, yes. I really appreciate your generosity and I appreciate your sincerity. And it really is, it's like a voice and a style that I want to see more of.

And so I hope that people get influenced by your, by your style and your, and your way of talking with people, making people feel comfortable also. So thank you.

[01:29:57] Paul: Thank you. I really appreciate that. And that is it for the episode. Thank you, everyone.

[01:30:05] Starting Over After Kids: Thank you.