Who are digital nomads? (Professors Rob Litchfield & Rachael Woldoff)

[01:39] Paul: Today I'm talking with Robert Litchfield and Rachael Woldoff. They have recently written a book titled Digital Nomads. In Search of Freedom, Community, and Meaningful Work in the New Economy. I'm excited to talk to them both today. I've been a digital nomad for the past almost 3 years now, and a lot of what you wrote resonated with me. You have a really interesting combo of skills.

Uh, Rachael, you're a sociologist specializing in urban communities, and Rob, you bring a business management perspective specializing in creativity and motivation, and A lot of those themes definitely overlap with a lot of my experiences. So welcome to the podcast.

[02:29] Rachael Woldoff): Thank you.

[02:30] Paul: Happy to be here. When did this book first emerge as an idea for you?

[02:39] Rachael Woldoff): The book? Well, so I had just finished a book about— it was literally called Priced Out, and it was all about how New York had become completely unaffordable except to elites, basically. And I had interviewed people who lived in a community there that went from rent stabilized to market rate and what had happened in the process of the apartment buildings becoming like that. And whenever— so the book was coming out and I had to apply. We get a sabbatical every 6 years. We're allowed to have a sabbatical, usually one semester, sometimes a year.

You can apply for a year if you have justification. And whenever I'm done a project, I start completely panicking. I'm like, what am I going to do next? You know, like as soon as it's in production, I'm very, very concerned about where to put my energies. So I designed basically like 3 projects and I got them all approved by the university. I did all the like protocol for the interviewing and, and one of them was branching off on a couple of things.

One, this recent work I'd done on New York, which is supposed to be like the dream place for creative people to live, right? And it was all about the failures of that, right? So I just had come off of that. And then I had just done, um, Rob and I had collaborated before several times, and one of the papers was with a grad student, um, about the aspirational creative class— people who are in college who dream of being in the creative class. And what their aspirations are in terms of where they want to live. And then the other one I had finished with a grad student was about how coffee shops had turned into basically workstations for people, Starbucks and things like that.

And I just had those ideas kind of brewing and we were talking about these ideas and I just come off this project and I just was starting to do some more research on that and I came across the whole co-working thing. And then Bali kept coming up in terms of, of that. And I was like, what, what are— I know people work from coffee shops. I know people work from home. I don't know about people going to the other side of the planet if you're from the US. And I— that was very— and Robin and I are not travelers.

I mean, we have not really traveled very much. You know, just like, like trips in the summer to Europe or something for a honeymoon and things like that. So I just started doing research on it and I was like, look at these people. And I was, I was telling him about it. I was like, look at them. Some of them are really young.

Some of them are our age. Some of them have brought their family here. Look where they go. Where, where is Bali? Like, I honestly didn't really know. I'd never been to Asia, you know.

And so I submitted, um, I did some background research on it. And I framed it in terms of my work, in terms of failures of the creative class city, because I'd read narratives about what wasn't working for them that fit into what I was doing. And then it fit into what Rob was doing because he studies creativity. And so we were like, how could we— like, could we study them? Like, could we go there? And I said, is that really a thing, or is this just kind of hype on the media and stuff like that?

So I I submitted the paperwork and we decided I would— I had my last sabbatical, which was— I only had had one at that point. I actually had my child during the sabbatical and didn't take any leave. So I felt a little bit robbed of my research sabbatical. And we agreed, you know, that I would check this out, you know, and I would apply for a year-long sabbatical if it works, and we would go there. And we take the kids with us, everything. It was crazy.

I mean, people really thought that was—

[06:43] Paul: I had a sabbatical coming up too that same year, but I can't take a year where I work. You can't get it, right? Some people might be able to take a year, but in my— in business, they would never give you a year.

[06:53] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah, and he's at a liberal arts school and I'm at a Research I school, so it's different views about the priority of research. And so I went alone, and I was like kind of excited to leave my family, and people thought it was, you know, definitely not my role to do that. And I went there and I'd never flown that long. I had never been to Asia.

[07:19] Paul: It's a long flight to Asia.

[07:21] Rachael Woldoff): Oh, never have done any of that. I mean, really didn't speak, you know, Bahá'í, I didn't speak any Balinese language.

[07:27] Paul: And when was this? Summer of 2016.

[07:30] Rachael Woldoff): Summer of 2016. Yeah, just for like 3 weeks or 2 and a half weeks I went.

[07:35] Paul: Yeah, yeah, talk to me, talk to me about like the gap between perception going in. I actually had my own experience going to Bali for the first time in April 2018, and I kind of read like these pieces in the media and they're pretty derogatory and I was pretty cynical about it. But then when I actually went there, it like shifted my perspective on so many things and really like blew my imagination open for like what, how I could design my work in life. But I'm wondering, did you go to Ubud or where did you go? So I spent a week in, I was just going with friends. Like I went for a wedding in Asia and then people shared a villa in like Seminyak, which is more of the tourist district.

But we went, I went to Canggu for a day. I went up to Ubud and stayed in a coworking spot for 2 nights and then went down to Uluwatu for a day. I eventually went back to Bali and spent 2 months there. But during that 1 week, I just met like really diverse sets of people. I met like people with kids. I met, I met Indonesians who were working from Bali.

I met all sorts of people I didn't expect versus like what I had read in like New York publications, which were like these like bro-y white dudes who are like ruining everything. And it's like, okay, yes and, not yes only. I'm wondering what you experienced in those two weeks.

[09:15] Rachael Woldoff): So when I went, you know, I, you know, it's funny, I was excited to go, but I immediately felt a little bit lonely. You know, I missed my family, my kids. A lot, especially. And then I was just disoriented. I had not really spent time alone for a while because the only time I would really do that was at a conference. And I was, you know, like in a Hilton or something, you know.

So I went to get like, I think I had like a coconut water and some food at an open-air kind of bar place. And the bar sort of faced the street. And in Ubud, and the guy sitting next to me was, you know, he looked like your stereotypical yogi. He was a very slender, shaved head, very tight white t-shirt, very tight, and then big flowing white pants, you know, like no one you would see in Pittsburgh, basically. Very rare, very hard to come across that guy. And he asked, he, you know, introduced— he was younger than me, but he taught, you know, just introduced himself to me.

And I said, oh yeah, I'm, I'm actually doing research on this group of people called digital nomads. He goes, well, actually, I'm a digital nomad. And I said, oh really? I said, you look like a yogi. He goes, I'm both. He said, I'm here, I'm getting yoga certification for hatha yoga.

He's healing from some things in his life, but he is, um, he was in marketing, um, and had his own company. And, you know, he was one of those like really techie guys, like he has his camera covered up on his phone and all that kind of stuff. And we just started talking and we exchanged numbers and he invited me to a digital nomad party. And I was like, okay, so like my research, like it just happened, you know? And I said, okay. And we were going to meet at this juice bar, I guess.

And when I got there, it was like there were all these people there getting like big, tall glass bottles filled with green juice to go to the same party. They were going to this party also. And I was like, and you're bringing that to the party? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, oh, I bought a bottle of wine because I thought I should bring a bottle of wine. And they were like, oh, wine?

That is very expensive. That's crazy. Like, a lot of people don't drink, you know. And I was like, okay, well, you know, so— and then of course, how do you carry a bottle of wine on a motor scooter, you know, and which I don't drive, um. So I, I got on the scooter with, I believe with him. I can't remember exactly.

I think he met me there and we brought it there and I just started talking to people. I met the beginning of our snowball sample that night and there was one person in particular that I really— it was her house. She was a digital nomad working. For a company there, um, and, uh, and then he— and then her roommate was a yogi. So that, that's where I started getting the sense of the two communities.

[12:24] Paul: Yeah.

[12:24] Rachael Woldoff): And how they are sometimes separate, sometimes overlap. And, uh, I started— and then there were also Indonesian people there. So in fact, there was a going away party for an Indonesian person there, a guy that they all knew. And I just started talking to people. I'm like, why are you here? Why are you here?

Just asking them, you know, I took notes. She let me see her bedroom. I wrote everything I could see down, the names of her books, what was on her bedside table, everything. And then she just, she and I connected. I'm Jewish, she was Jewish. Her parents were professors.

So I think she had special empathy for us instead of disdain for us.

[13:01] Paul: She was American also.

[13:02] Rachael Woldoff): She was American. She worked on the Obama campaign. And I have a Black daughter who's adopted. So we talked a little bit about, about race issues in the US and stuff. There was a lot going on here in terms of violence against Black people by the police. And we just hit it off.

And so that began— I was like, I have something. I have— after that night, I think I had 15 or 20 people that agreed to be interviewed. And that's like, honestly, some people write books with just that. I mean, we ended up getting over 70. But that first sample— and the other thing that was really amazing, a lot of them were women.

[13:39] Paul: Right.

[13:39] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah.

[13:40] Paul: There's tons of women in these communities. And I think that's a lot of times, like in Bali, it's almost like majority women. We end up with half our sample as women. Yeah. And I think a lot of those were the early— a lot of people through like doing things on Instagram, fashion, beauty, different things like that. And yoga, yoga, especially because you can really kind of build your own business around your brand and maybe do classes and kind of do that wherever.

[14:11] Rachael Woldoff): But, um, and Eat, Pray, Love had a huge effect.

[14:15] Paul: Yeah, for sure.

[14:17] Rachael Woldoff): When—

[14:17] Paul: so when did you— we did have women, I'll say, who were engineers, startups. Yeah, did start—

[14:25] Rachael Woldoff): were—

[14:25] Paul: one was a CEO of a startup and videographer, funded startup, and, you know, videographer, a lot of journalists. So it wasn't really just Instagrammers.

[14:33] Rachael Woldoff): In fact, our people were in.

[14:34] Paul: Yeah, yeah, for whatever. We saw some of those people there, but they weren't really the main group, I think. Yeah, I was, I was saying that was more of like the first wave. Now it, now it's like tons of people. I mean, I'm in a community here in Puerto Escondido, Mexico right now. And it's, yeah, you just meet all sorts of people.

It's pretty wild. So when, when did you both decide to come back and bring your kids? So we, after, after Rachael basically Skyped me like maybe the day after that, and was like, I think we got this is, this is definitely something we can do. And then once she got back, she harvested all those contacts and actually conducted a few interviews while she was there.

[15:19] Rachael Woldoff): I assumed— actually, the guy who I met that night ended up— he, he drank too much, which would probably be easy since he weighed like 100 pounds, and he slept in my villa on like two chairs pushed together, and he couldn't sleep in the air conditioning. And we had a big fight. He's like, can we turn the air conditioning off? I was like, no. No, we cannot. And he couldn't sleep, and we ended up talking for hours.

And he told me his whole life story and all his daddy issues and all this kind of stuff. And then in the morning, we Skyped with Rob.

[15:50] Paul: Yeah.

[15:51] Rachael Woldoff): And Rob interrogated him. All the things that— the male version of an interview.

[15:55] Paul: The great irony is that that was the first one, and that was— that's the only one where we lost the audio. The audio got destroyed.

[16:01] Rachael Woldoff): Yes.

[16:01] Paul: But we— but it, but it sort of set the tone for the whole thing. And that we started then immediately contacting all those people and setting up interviews remotely over Skype, you know, and—

[16:13] Rachael Woldoff): And we were very disciplined. We set up 2 a week every week for almost a year.

[16:17] Paul: Yeah. So we went from, I guess, between July when she got back and the next April—

[16:23] Rachael Woldoff): All the way.

[16:24] Paul: All the way. We were interviewing 2 people a week, sometimes even more, actually, towards the end. And then in April of 2017, we went with 3 months, for 3 months with our 2 kids to Bali. And during that time, we lived all over the island in all the major nomad centers. We lived in Sanur, we lived in Canggu, we spent time in Ubud, we took a visa run to Singapore. We did the nomad experience, we did vacation in the Gili Islands.

[16:59] Rachael Woldoff): We did whatever they told us to do. I read everything they told me to read, whatever they told— if it was The Secret, if it was, uh, you know, whatever it was, I read it. If it wasn't Russell, you know, if it was— I would read whatever they told me to read just so I understood, you know.

[17:15] Paul: I was just like, okay, you read The 4-Hour Workweek?

[17:17] Rachael Woldoff): I read that. Yeah, I read that. Yeah. And if they told us to go somewhere, you know, Rob is not one to go to the yoga barn or go to static dance. That is not a rock thing, but we did do it. Yes, we did.

Yeah.

[17:31] Paul: So it sounds like it was both a really fascinating experience for you as a family and probably just really interesting in terms of what you learned from a research standpoint. What, what stands out, like reflecting back, like what were the surprising things that you didn't expect going in? Well, I think almost all of it we didn't expect in detail. I mean, I would say that, you know, some of the major things that stick out in the book, you know, a big theme, you know, drawing on Rachael's, you know, knowledge of community and what I'd started to see about, you know, creativity and networks and management literature, the idea of this being a new kind of community. In Bali specifically. And digital nomads also said, you know, like Bali is kind of like, for many of these people were saying, this is the top, right?

This is like the apex of what community can be. And this is, and that's why so many people were attracted to stay longer there than they would have other places. And they sort of, this idea of a new kind of working community where there's this really hot, you know, normally in community literature, as Rachael will tell you, that the, hallmark is stability.

[18:52] Rachael Woldoff): It's length of residence is what builds social ties. That's the foundation of everything in, in studying community.

[19:00] Paul: But instead we see here this idea of a highly fluid community that's nevertheless really intimate. And, and, and, you know, so we started to say, okay, well, why? Right. And, and it really does. There's this shared values component that we go into the business to do it with. Detail in the book.

But the idea that people who have these, they may not share profession, they may not share an employer, they definitely don't share an employer. They may not, they may be from different countries, but they have some similarities in terms of professional backgrounds oftentimes. And they do have these similar values, which sort of prime them. And maybe especially Bali with its Eat, Pray, Love kind of reputation, although many of the nomads, it should be known, did not, had not heard of that before they came to Bali. Yeah. I still have not read it.

Yeah. And a lot of them, they kind of knew that it existed, but they didn't know about it really. And that this, they were sort of primed for that intimacy when they came there and ready to dive in. So Rachael's experience at the party, we thought, oh my God, we hit the jackpot. But it turns out that was our experience everywhere we went in Bali. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, people were just like, we've made it. No man, they'd be just like, Oh yeah, let me tell you my life story. I'm like, awesome, let me get a coffee and let's sit down. Yeah, I think I kind of experienced both sides of this. So I mean, I, on paper, like I was like thriving, right? I had a 10-year corporate career.

I worked for really good companies. However, I was walking like I started to, I went off and went freelancing when in my early 30s. And I was living in Boston and I had been in Boston for many years throughout my 20s and early 30s. And like that place-based effect of community, like, was actually fading away. People couldn't afford houses, so they'd move away to the suburbs and community time would be replaced with commute time. And so there weren't people to hang out with.

I was also finding, at least among like other professionals, like people were orienting more and more around work. Um, like I would be downtown and like text a friend and be like, hey, I'm outside of your office, want to grab a coffee? And she's like, probably not this month. Like crazy at work. And it's like, well, what am I doing? And that's what I went to Bali and The ability to make like instant real friendships was mind-blowing to me.

And I think the foundation of that was really a shared vulnerability because I think a lot of corporate people look at what I'm doing and like, you're crazy. Why wouldn't you, why would you give up such a good consulting salary to do what you're doing and make way less? Well, it's actually like the vulnerability and uncertainty that comes through this is kind of a feature because it makes you think about what kind of life do you want to live in, what's important. And then you have all these communities you can actually tap into that share these things. And you have this intimacy, which is just really hard to build with other professionals in Boston or New York that I think used to exist more in big cities like that, but just has become a little— yeah, it's just seems like it's fading away. Like, I still want to—

[22:32] Rachael Woldoff): people exist, but they'd be hard to find. You would not stumble upon them at Starbucks.

[22:37] Paul: Certainly in Pittsburgh, in Columbus, Ohio, where I'm from, in Philadelphia where Rachael's from, in New York, we've spent an awful lot of time. Those people are there. It's just getting, getting, you know, able to be near them and be together with them is the thing that's a real challenge, um, because everybody's lives are the way they are, right? Well, I wonder what Rachael thinks about the size of communities. So I think one thing that stands out about Ubud and Canggu is that they're pretty tiny, right? You can get to one side or the other in like a 5-minute scooter ride.

Also, being able to ride a scooter is really nice compared to like having to jump in a car. It just kind of lowers the friction. There's a lot of outdoor space. So that just like, it's very fluid where you can just kind of be in a lot of places very fast. Like, do you think that is a big factor in how these kind of communities are emerging in today's world, especially like enabled by technology and social media?

[23:38] Rachael Woldoff): I do. At the same time, I don't want to talk too much about this because I think I'm, I'm a little bit spinning from a recent experience I've had here. Where I was in a small town this weekend, we took our kids to a farm because we've been holed up. We've really been in isolation hardcore since, really since COVID started.

[23:58] Paul: Yeah.

[23:59] Rachael Woldoff): And, and we went to a farm, but it was in a very, very, very conservative part of Western PA. So on one hand, it sounds great. Farm, children, farm, small town. On the other hand, it's not Bali. It's Western Pennsylvania.

[24:18] Paul: Yeah.

[24:19] Rachael Woldoff): In a county that every single sign the entire way there was Trump and the media and, you know, all the negative, all the negative connotations around that. Obviously, we're not Trump supporters, but there's the like-mindedness part where having like a fundamental spiritual worldview difference on something with a whole community. Would it— it would be— it would be impossible to overcome that with just it being small. So for instance, the Airbnb person who we met, I knit, she does crafts. I mean, we try to find common ground. I praise her lifestyle.

She's a goodbye to all that kind of person, only for farming, you know. I tried to sort of relate about all that, but in the end she wanted to talk about, you know, outlawing abortion and marijuana and Trump, you know, and hates immigrants. And then, you know, and it's just like, in the end it was like I couldn't live in a— if Bali was just those people and that's— that was going to be part of our, you know, spiritual connection, I don't think that that could have worked. And the like-mindedness is— it sounds in some ways close-minded that you want to be with like-minded people, right? But it comes to how you want to live your life, you know, and what your core values are. I think there's something about the digital nomad world, the combination of the size and the like-mindedness and the like-mindedness, not about petty things, but about worldview and lifestyle is huge.

We all work, you and I, I mean, I'm in academia. You could think, people might think everyone I work with, I'm like-minded, but no, that's not true at all. I don't, you know, academics are, can be very different. You know, there are people raised evangelical, there are people that don't really care about racism, you know? So I feel like in Bali, this idea that these people have these, we outline these core values, freedom, That's a core value and a very specific meaning of that. Being minimalist and not being materialistic, that is a very different core value from the rest of the country, I would say.

You know, very different. You know, I mean, the, you know, all of the things, the focus on personal development and introspection, that's not really as much of a thing. You know, I tried to have a book club here once with my neighbors. And I wanted to read the book. Um, it was called— I can't remember, it was called— I think it was called like The Power of Positive Thinking or something like that. And my group refused to do the exercises in it.

And I was like, see, this is the thing. I came back from Bali thinking I was gonna do that here, and they were like, no, no, I'm not doing that.

[27:08] Paul: Yeah, that's— well, and I think this is the frustrating thing. Like, I think me and my wife think about moving back to the US, and like, we want to find communities where we can experience some of the things we've experienced around the world. And it's hard because I think— well, one of the things I think I experienced, which is surprising to people in nomad communities, is insane amounts of diversity. With like all different income levels, all different nationalities, all, and probably wildly different political views. Because like on average, the views of people from most other countries outside the US are a lot more conservative than like your average American. That would probably even make like conservatives in the US cringe.

But those aren't the fundamental basis for a relationship, and it often orients around like shared vulnerability or uncertainty or just like a desire to orient around love and generosity and community. And I think, yeah, it's just like this enormous problem. I don't know how to— how that gets solved in places where they have had these like solidified worldviews, like how you break that up. But yeah, it's something I think about a lot is—

[28:41] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah, but I think like even in Bali, of course, you know, I don't romanticize Bali in the book at all. We don't, we are critical. The book is, and I think a lot of nomads really appreciate this about the book. It's not a how-to. Oh yeah. It's not just romanticizing it.

We talk about hucksters, we talk about the roots, we talk about all that stuff. But in Bali, you know, there are some beautiful things about the culture there in terms of family, in terms of, you know, their religious beliefs. And then there are things about it that are oppressive. Forcing people to get married if they have an unplanned pregnancy is often oppressive. And so I don't— I think like that part. I think there are things, though, that from what I saw when we were there, many of the Balinese seemed to me more liberal, for instance, than the people we were just with in the sense that they're very tolerant.

And they understand that their views are actually just their views. Like, they weren't proselytizing, trying to make anyone Hindu. They weren't. Yeah, they don't want you really at their ceremony. You're not Hindu, and they know it.

[29:47] Paul: You know, it's a sacred space.

[29:49] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah. And also, they, they are kind of very live and let live, kind of laissez-faire about it. That's not how it is here. You know, here it's like trying to make your religion the law, you know. So it's— I actually found the Balinese people to be much more tolerant than people here. There, there's no guns.

You know, they're— one of my favorite Balinese stories when I was there that I was literally crying when I heard this in the taxi cab ride, right? Person barely speaks English and we're trying to communicate on a long ride. And they're very perplexed that I'm a mother, but I'm there alone without my children. Who's taking care of them? And then, and we're there and an African American man was killed by police selling CDs. And I had just read about it on my Facebook page and my Black friends were torn up, crying, ripped up about it.

And I felt like I betrayed them by being here and doing this frivolous project. Here they are dealing with racial justice issues and I'm in Bali talking about work. I told the person in the car about it and he goes, oh, well, we don't have guns here, you know. And you could tell he felt superior to our society, you know, like I'm feeling sorry for these people because they're poor. On one level there is that, you know. And then he's like, well, you guys live like animals, you know, with the guns and everything.

And then I said, well, he goes, in our society, you know, if there's a— he's showing me like a fistfight. And like someone sheds blood, you know, he's like trying to explain to me a fist fight. Like, I don't know, I teach at a football school, you know. And he said, well, a cleansing ceremony, they have to pay for a big ceremony to bad karma for the whole village, you know, and the whole banjar, you know, everyone has to go there. Cleansing ceremony, very expensive, you know, because of one drop of blood. And I was like, one drop of blood?

I mean, we have hockey, I live in Pittsburgh, we have hockey games with blood spilling, you know. So for me, it was like, just like, you know, you leave there and you just think like you're watching children flying a kite, you know, made of plastic with like a tin can. And here we spend $1,000 on Christmas presents, easy, you know. And it is really easy to sort of oversimplify their culture, but there's a lot to be learned from the way that they live. And they do seem happier than us. They do.

I mean, it's just my perception, but I was there for a while and it definitely did seem that way.

[32:20] Paul: You're a trained sociologist, so we can try We can trust your word. But yeah, I mean, this is one of the things that I've, I've been thrown into a bit of cognitive dissonance, right? Because I think when I first went abroad, people were like, oh, that must be so tough. It must be like, man, it must suck to not be in the US with like US healthcare. And it's like, well, some of these things are really interesting and Like, my wife is Taiwanese and we've lived in Taiwan for a while as well. And like, I mean, salaries and incomes and money are way less, but like the average standard of living for the average person, I think, is higher.

And that's really confusing for me. And it kind of just shattered my beliefs around like money and like governments and like what is the role in all these things. And I mean, there's definitely benefits to having relentless freedom in a society, but there's also costs as well. And I think, I mean, the US is grappling with that now. I don't want to go too far down the road of political and social issues because we're just not going to be able to solve them on this podcast.

[33:35] Rachael Woldoff): But even day-to-day things, like if you take medicine, I had a kidney stone when I was there. Yeah. And I mean, it was extremely painful.

[33:42] Paul: You know, we spoke to many nomads who had been in scooter accidents or otherwise. Yeah, I've gotten bit. I've gotten bit by a dog. I've gotten— I just dealt with a parasite here in Mexico, and it's actually way less psychologically stressful because I know I won't have to worry about insurance, access, unexpected bills, or anything like that.

[34:07] Rachael Woldoff): Yes.

[34:07] Paul: Yeah. I think that anytime you— I mean, you've been to Bali, so you know. I mean, it's about as different from the West as you could be and still be in a society where something like working remotely would work. And the values, everything, the way that the world is there, the sights, the sounds, the smells, the people, everything is so different. Right. And I think that stepping out into something like that from the West, it inevitably changes how you look at lots of things.

And I think that—

[34:48] Rachael Woldoff): I think also being surrounded by two groups of people. So on one hand, you have the nomads. They're trying to keep things positive, which is— that's one of the big values that's very different from our society. Very different. And then you also have the Balinese doing it. So you have two groups of people doing it.

And then you're the only one that's not on board, you know what I mean? So like, if I get on a scooter with someone my first trip, I, I, I basically got straight— I tried to walk a lot of places, which is crazy in Bali. And, and someone just insisted. He's like, please let me drive you, you know, let— please go on the scooter with me. And I get on, but I'm scared of getting in an accident, you know. And I, and I just said, can I— can you drive slower?

Because I'm very scared. I have children, you know. I don't want to die. You know, I'm saying these things to him, and he's like, you're gonna— you're gonna make us have an accent by saying that.

[35:34] Paul: And I was like, what?

[35:36] Rachael Woldoff): You know, but he— yeah, that's like the Balinese guy saying that to me. It might as well have been a digital nomad saying it because they, they are similar in the sense of, you know, why do you have to focus so much on plan B? And like, how much are you going to focus on like your contingencies and why this won't work? And, you know, and that's That's the world that we mostly live in here. You know, even if I— I mean, one of the big— and you can— this is one of the criticisms of our book that we really had to change as we worked on it. But when I came back and Rob and I would talk to our neighbors and friends about what we were doing, people not liking the digital nomads.

You know, there's this anti-millennial thing. There's a lot of schadenfreude about like people who have made these choices. There's in America a lot of distaste for people who travel as being privileged and entitled. There's also this idea for— I'm 47— people my age saying things like, oh, they were bored at work and had nothing to do from 2 to 6 but were forced there. So what? That's how work is.

They should be glad to have a paycheck. And I'm like, that's your belief about work, right? But what if, what if you don't agree with that's how work should be? You know, and like, so like posing to them, do you understand that younger people who are digital natives think that's silly? You know, and, and they, and then them just being like, almost like can't bear you're taking down their lifestyle. You know, the criticism of their lifestyle is very, very, um, upsetting to them.

[37:17] Paul: Well, look, I, I'm sure that anyone who's a digital nomad has had this conversation with people back home, wherever that is. Oh yeah. I, and I think I get a lot of criticism. Criticism all the time. But I take— well, it's just like subtle stuff. It's like, why would you be doing this?

When are you gonna get serious and buy a house? What are you gonna do if you have kids? But that's fine. Like, I'm the person opting off the default path. Like, I totally expect for people to be uncomfortable. However, like, These are people on the default path.

So I'm, I'm always like, if you're on the default path and succeeding, you shouldn't be upset that I'm not competing with you on the default path anymore. Well, I think one of the things that we learned, and I think this is where the millennial thing really comes in, is that an awful lot of people who we interviewed were in their 30s. Yeah.

[38:14] Rachael Woldoff): The median age was like 33.

[38:16] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. I'm 36.

[38:18] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah.

[38:19] Paul: And so a lot of them, when was their formative moment at work? It was during the financial crisis of 2008, 2009. Right. And so talk about fearmongering. That was, that was a moment where it became very— even, even though most of the people in our sample were not actually personally laid off or anything by that, we had a few that were. But, but that, that it became crystal clear to them that the default path, as you say, was not going to be a guarantee of much of anything going forward.

[38:52] Rachael Woldoff): And so whether they witnessed their parents, like, with their having a mortgage crisis or getting their parents being laid off or just listening, one of the things that I found really disturbing, and this has really affected me as a mentor, I just had a meeting with my chair yesterday about this. I said, you know, I was trying to get him to lead on a topic around a subject about hire. And he's like, well, why don't we just survey everyone and see what they want to do? And I'm like, no, no, no, you need to— like, this can be your legacy. You can lead on this, not push a vote through, but lead on this and make it sound exciting and positive and stop anticipating all the negativity. And he's older than me.

He's much older than me. He's a grandparent. And I said, but this is what the nomads told me. They would say to me, Rachael, no offense, You know, you know, but, but I had people your age at my job with their coffee mug by my cubicle bitching about their pension, about home renovations, their— they don't make enough money, uh, all the things in their life. And I'm like, why are you my role model? Why?

I don't want your life, you know what I mean? And it was, it was— we'd hang up because, you know, we're doing the interviews at different times, so we'd hang up and be like 11 o'clock at night, Rob and I. And we'd be like, shit, you know, like, we'd be like, these people, like, like, this is interesting. It's like, they, they, they're getting— they're looking at people like us. And they think that we're horrible. Not me and Rob, obviously.

But like, it made me think about like, what are we conveying to our students, to our grad students? What, what is the message? She— I'm a full professor, I'm fully promoted— to the assistant professors, to the associate professors, when we're in meetings, and we're talking about— and the chair comes in and and says, they could turn over a criminology department to poli sci. You know, if that's what we're doing to start our meeting, you know, why would you expect idea generation? Why? You know, and, but when you say that in our world, you know, the response you get is, Rachael, I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist.

You know, you're like a silly dreamer, you know, kind of person, you know what I mean? And it's like, it's not a dreamer to take the temperature of a room and realize Otherwise, you're stealing all the energy from it and you're creating fear. So that, like, that language about the, like, abundance mindset, it's really easy to make fun of all the woo-woo talk, right? But there is something to it.

[41:28] Paul: I think people can get— there's definitely— I have issues with that. I think people can get a little too detached from reality. Yes. And kind of be seeking only positive experiences. Experiences, which actually undermines meaning because suffering and struggle are often the things we reflect on that give our life substance and fulfillment. Um, but there is this underlying thread, which is that things could be better.

And I love that. Like, I need that.

[42:04] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah.

[42:05] Paul: And I want to be part of building institutions for the future. I know how to work in institutions, but I don't know where to play. I think the pandemic has actually opened up a lot of possibilities because things have gone online and then they're gonna go offline again. Like, I've seen a lot of academics just hit the eject switch and go just start writing publicly online and build online communities. They're gonna build the universities of the future. There's a program called On Deck which is basically going to replace the NBA, like a top-tier NBA in the next 5 years.

Like they've laid out their playbook. To me, it's very obvious that they're going to destroy the full-time top-tier NBA and they're putting it out there in public transparently.

[42:55] Rachael Woldoff): And like it's seen that on LinkedIn.

[42:57] Paul: Yeah, it's happening.

[42:59] Rachael Woldoff): I think.

[42:59] Paul: I mean, I don't know. I'm guessing Harvard will be okay no matter what happens. If you look beyond that, I mean, I do think that some of the traditional pathways, like I never recommend students, I mean, I actually, I only recommend students go for an MBA if they're gonna go to a top-tier program, because that's sort of a networking pathway to get you in a specific place, right? If that's a thing that you want to do, but for most people, it just doesn't make sense anymore. And there's so many other ways to gather the knowledge. And there's so many other paths that you might take that would be more rewarding either in less time or allowing you to just Do something else during that time alongside it.

You know, that's, that's almost a whole separate conversation, but it's, it's—

[43:41] Rachael Woldoff): But who are people looking up to now, right? And that's what you're saying. It's like, they're not looking up to the person that was there at the company for 30 years as much as the person a couple of years ahead of them who went off and did their own thing or who branched off or who took a risk to have, you know, you know, who is your role model might be evolving now. And like this, the talk around being a boss and entrepreneurship and all that kind of stuff is, it's in the zeitgeist a lot now. I mean, I point out to Rob, like, when we go to Target, I'm like, look at all these lady boss desk supplies. It says lady boss everywhere.

It's like, it's like my kids, I mean, my kid dolls say that now. You know, it's like, there's, it's easy to make fun of it. But it is kind of interesting. Avon commercials and all the pyramid schemes and everything. They're marketing to this desire for people to create something for themselves too, and people's frustrations with the institutions where they work. I mean, I think one of the things that a lot of pushback we got sometimes from people when they would hear is like, why don't these people become teachers if they don't like their corporate job?

Or why don't they become like helpers?

[44:49] Paul: I mean, we are like— I run 2 online courses. I've taught hundreds of students in multiple countries, and I do everything myself. Run the full thing. Like, I'm basically building a mini school. I do it for any— much cheaper. And it, it's pretty interesting.

Some of the most engaged students that take my course are actually from low-income countries, and I have scholarship programs for them, but they are so driven. Because they're going online first. They don't have an opportunity to go to a university, but they can go on the internet and apply to take my course for $5 because I am just trying to help people.

[45:41] Rachael Woldoff): Right, and we have students who are involuntarily in our classes that are angry to be in school right now. You know, a lot of— we have students that don't want to read, they don't want to take tests, they don't want to write papers. They're just following what their parents told them to do. I think my kids have learned to appreciate school from not having school.

[45:59] Paul: But I think also another important point about this whole milieu, that's, that's, and it's not true of all digital nomads, but I think it is kind of true in the Bali community, um, it's that the, the bumping up against the sort of new age philosophy and the, the And in particular, this idea of this abundance mindset. I mean, one of the things that I take away— it sounds really woo-woo, but one thing that I take away from it is you've got all these small entrepreneurs and freelancers and other knowledge workers who are pretty marginal. They recognize that they're pretty marginal to the big system that's going on in the world. And what's smart about it is these people, they might have these very libertarian values. But what they've been hit with is, gosh, actually, I'm not in competition with the guy sitting next to me at Dojo Bali.

We might even both be coaches or something, but we're really not in competition. And we would gain more by helping each other than we would hurt— than we would gain by viewing each other as a competition to steal business from. Well, even if you are— like, this Generosity theme is one of my like the most important principles for me. Even if you are in competition, life is way more fun played on generosity mode. And like, I pretty much help anyone that reaches out to me because it's way more fun.

[47:31] Rachael Woldoff): Is it because you believe, though, on some level that there are dividends?

[47:36] Paul: No, I just— I think I don't have any attachment to my work. And when I create something, like, I want the world to have it. And like, I'm— I don't need to own the resources or the anything that comes from that, right? Like, the greatest thing that could ever happen is that like if ideas I create or put out there enable people to do things on their own or build their own life or their own path. Um, well, now you do sound like an academic.

[48:16] Rachael Woldoff): So wait a minute. So no, no, he doesn't, because, because academics are also obsessed with intellectual property.

[48:21] Paul: Yeah.

[48:22] Rachael Woldoff): So you're not—

[48:23] Paul: well, I, I think I'm a— like, I wish I could go into academia and teach college students. I do this in— for like, I'm giving a mini lecture to college students later today, but like, it will never I'll probably not figure this out in the next several years. My dream would be to mentor and coach young people in a college university setting. That path right now I think is inaccessible to me because I think it would make me a worse person because I'd have to compromise my values to play the game. And I just don't know how to do that anymore.

[49:01] Rachael Woldoff): You think if you worked in a corporate atmosphere it was interfering with your ability— if your core value is to be nice to people and kind, do you think that that was interfering with that?

[49:13] Paul: It was, yeah. I used to, I used to like do a self-assessment every quarter and just like try to rate myself against my like principles. Like, what am I trying to do? And like towards the end, I just noticed I was becoming a lot edgier and more frustrated and like I had no creative energy to like do the like volunteering and mentoring stuff I was doing on the side. And I just wanted to explore like a new terrain and see what could emerge. And I've been pretty pleased with what's emerged.

But yeah, I like, I'm not going to change a 30,000-person organization. Like I'm, I know too much about how complex systems work.

[49:55] Rachael Woldoff): Right. So, yeah, but the self-reflection part, see, that's like, that's like another thing about the individual differences between I talk a lot about when you study cities and places, migration patterns are selective. So certain kinds of people tend to move to certain kinds of places. Right. But the kind of person that would do an assessment like that is a certain kind of person. A lot of people don't do that.

I mean, I'm amazed. One of the things Rob and I would talk about, like we've of course stayed in touch with a lot of the digital nomads and we've developed, I mean, a lot of great relationships with people. But one of them, I remember she posted on Facebook, people like, I would like you to tell me my worst character trait honestly right now. And I was like, I would never do that. Like, if I did that, I would be ruminating on that. Like, it would be so hard for me.

I'm so weak on that. You know, I could not believe she did that. I was just, I said to Rob, I go, these people, like, it's just how many people would really want you to answer that and publicly online? I mean, it's mind-blowing.

[51:13] Paul: I think the pandemic has really shaken things up in terms of people's beliefs around work, how they're living and how they think about communities. And we're gonna unleash like a crazy amount of experiments across the world. In the next 5 years. And I think nothing could be better than like shaking up communities and beliefs around work. I don't know what will emerge. It could certainly go in a bad direction, but I think there's going to be a lot of interesting and positive things that emerge as well.

And I think a lot of nomads are looking to go back and invest in their countries and communities because they like— I want to see America thrive. I don't want to burn it to the ground. And I think I'm very proud of the country and I think it has a lot of amazing things, but we need to like harness that and invest and believe in people.

[52:16] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah, but even just opening people's minds to the idea that some of it can be done online so that people can have that quality of life back. Oh yeah, you know, that you need, that other people— I mean, we met people who wrote a novel on their commute on their phone. I mean, did they need to? And he had a digital job, right? Why was he commuting in for a digital job? And, you know, and, you know, it's just like, it doesn't have to be that way.

You know, now of course I want to acknowledge that for many, many people, because I, it's very easy to talk about like the only the knowledge workers, you know, lots of people don't have jobs. My mom works at Neiman Marcus. I mean, she has to go to work and expose herself to risk at a mall, you know, and my stepfather works the meat counter at a supermarket, you know, so they're, they're not going to have digital. Now I did try to brainwash them into thinking about their futures and how to do that, but they're not open to it, you know, and that's fine. But now for the future generations, I, I really think everyone coming out of college now, and I, and we are hurting them by not doing this, should be forced. Like, here's something I wanted to implement, okay?

Here's an example of the institution not working. Uh, when I first started this research, I came back and I wanted all of my students who go through our major— there's a, there's a one-credit course they all take, like, what is this major, right?

[53:45] Paul: Yeah.

[53:46] Rachael Woldoff): I thought they should all have to take an Upwork job. Just one.

[53:50] Paul: That is such a good idea.

[53:52] Rachael Woldoff): That's what I think.

[53:53] Paul: So smart. This— I tell college students this all the time. I say like, you should just— I just tell them to find some sort of freelance job and you can actually do it easier, which is like, you— people love working with students. So just say like, hey, I'll do a pro bono freelance project for you and just get experience having owners.

[54:14] Rachael Woldoff): Oh yeah, that's what I said. Your first gig you have to do for free anyway because you don't have a resume, you know. I said, just, you know, just if you want a line on your resume, just one, just post one job. You're sociology, okay? They do census data research, they do interviews, they're critical thinkers, they understand structural consciousness, they care about diversity. I mean, there's so many things they do.

I said, you could, you know, you, if you write well, you could do a blog post for someone in Russia, you know, you could do whatever, you know, but just take one one gig, and that's your assignment. And then write it up, put it on your resume, and then you could then charge after that, you know, whatever it is. I mean, it's not the Philippines, you're gonna have to figure something out, you know.

[54:57] Paul: But like, I talked to a lot of Gen Z students and it's, it's actually very different than like my older cohort of millennials. Like millennials get a bad rap, but we mostly work hard and you're just frustrated that nobody gets leadership positions or houses.

[55:16] Rachael Woldoff): Okay.

[55:17] Paul: But like the Gen Zs are like, I'm not even going to go down that route. Like, I'm just going to try and create my own path from the beginning.

[55:26] Rachael Woldoff): Yeah, that's true. A big lesson from our millennials is like that they saw value in their time in the corporate world.

[55:33] Paul: I actually just wrote a big, long article about like the benefits of the corporate world because I had so many young people just saying like, I don't want to do any of that, right? It's like, well, maybe like 3 to 5 years might be good, right? Like, you can approach it with like a more entrepreneurial mindset.

[55:50] Rachael Woldoff): If you have a bachelor's in sociology or criminology, okay, which you have tons of research skills that you don't have in business. I mean, they learn how to do all kinds of things about doing research, but it's perceived as a soft thing for some reason. And then, and then I'll see the job ads, like, it'll be like like, you have to have 5 years experience doing this for like an entry-level position that pays $40,000 a year. And I'm like, but you don't need 5 years experience. You actually don't. You really, really don't.

And that screening process of all these bullshit prerequisites for every job, it's ridiculous. And I hear the nomads tell me this all the time, you know, that like this, these, these, like instead of humanizing us, we have like like a database with keywords that like funnels you through based on these requirements so that you don't have too many applicants come in, you know? I mean, that's why some people love the nomad world because, you know, you have like, and we criticize this too, but you have people giving talks and lectures on things that they've just started to gain expertise on.

[56:52] Paul: Well, that's what you need for the emergence of new ideas. You need risk and you need things that are bad ideas, right? You can't actually control the downside without eliminating the good ideas too.

[57:08] Rachael Woldoff): So, right.

[57:08] Paul: Yeah, this is— yeah, I mean, all of this is really interesting and we could go on for a long time. I don't know if you guys want to have like closing thoughts or—

[57:20] Rachael Woldoff): I mean, I think, I think like I believe I'm optimistic. About the good things about the liberation of not having to do everything face to face, especially for certain categories of people like women, like people who live in places where the work, where the economy is going to put you in a job that's either not good for you, not pleasurable, not fulfilling, or not appropriate. In terms of like for people who are married, having a spouse that is more mobile so that you can move more easily and not have your relationship end or have one person underemployed or not employed at all if they want to be employed and need to be employed. I think for, I think for so many things, this is going to be a good, this has been a wake-up call about how far behind we've gotten. Because at the time we started the book, and I can't stress this enough, we're actually just, like I said, just in March.

I mean, we've, in the last year, my own home department has had arguments about whether or not we could have people Zoom in. You know, I mean, that's the level of like closed-mindedness. And then after COVID happened, like in August, people like, well, how are we going to take attendance? How are we going to do this? How are we going to do that? And it's like, I'm like, you guys, no.

And, and these are people younger than me. I mean, I got excellent teaching evaluations, highest ones that I've ever gotten last semester. And I actually think it's because of the nomads. I had already adapted a lot of my thinking. So I was able to, even though I, the work of making my course online, my courses online was difficult and it's still evolving. I'm still changing it.

I already had a can-do attitude about it. So, but, but I mean, I'm just saying, it's like, I'm trying, like, I think I've really learned to think about what motivates people more and not be so focused on the power structure of me as the evaluator and me as the person conveying knowledge and teaching. And me is like, they are responsible for their learning. Here's what I'm doing. Everything isn't about evaluating every single thing we do. You know, like if, if let's say, for instance, here's an example.

Like something I did last semester I would never normally do. Normally, there was a hole in one of the days where there were presentations, right, because I had less people enrolled than normal. And so I said, usually I have the students present readings in class. So I said, oh my God, now I'm going to have to present these two readings. So I start to prep because I don't usually present them, these two very hard readings. And then I was like, you know what, I was like, instead, I'm not going to present it.

I'll still quiz them because if I don't quiz them, they don't read. So I'll quiz them on the readings. But then I'm going to have a speaker from the community come in. And I had a high school principal from a community where a child was shot on Halloween and died. And I had him come in and just give like a real talk to my students about what it's like to be a principal in a low-income, majority Black community where there's just been violence against a student. And it was very real.

And he just talked about, you know, he told me that, you know, we had such a real conversation. He said, He said, I go, what do you think about, like, you guys have really low test scores at your school. He goes, Rachael, I don't care about test scores. I'm trying to get people like free lunches and going to school. And I want them to be safe. I'm trying to get them a Chromebook, you know?

And I was like, right. I live in a white suburban community where we care about test scores, which are based on income level, you know? And it was like, he checked me in front of all my students, you know, which is great for them. To see that I'm not an expert on being a principal at a school.

[01:01:10] Paul: Yeah, you know, that's amazing.

[01:01:12] Rachael Woldoff): So I've really loosened up and like tried to like just understand learning in a much more holistic way. And I think a lot about what will motivate my students.

[01:01:25] Paul: Um, well, it was good chatting with you both today. It kind of went off in a bunch of different, uh, directions. But appreciate your thoughts. Like, kudos to you for having the courage to like go experiment with your lives and immerse yourself in that as well. And appreciate that you're writing a book on this. So thank you.

[01:01:45] Rachael Woldoff): Thank you. Thanks for having us. We're gonna reach out to you to talk to our students.