From The "Holler" to Therapist to Creator Coach - Corey Wilks Psy. D. On Helping People Thrive

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I'm talking with Dr. Corey Wilks Psy, who I'm really excited to talk to today. I think he has a fascinating perspective, both from being in the mix in the creator economy and charting an unconventional path himself, and his actual clinical experience as a licensed psychologist. He's also an executive coach with 15 years of psychological experience.

We're going to dive into a lot today. We're going to go deep. We're going to get nerdy. It's going to be fun. Welcome to the podcast, Corey.

[01:40] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Thanks for having me, man.

[01:41] Paul: I start most of my podcasts with reflecting on how people grew up, the scripts they grew up with, and how that influences how they think about their lives. And you've actually written quite a bit about your childhood, and I really enjoyed this one piece where you wrote around how you had these ideas that like you had to lose your accent, kind of lose the essence of who you were growing up. Maybe talk to us a little bit about growing up on what you call the holler. In Appalachia. Talk to us about like, what was it like growing up as Corey in that environment?

[02:21] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. So like you said, I grew up in— I grew up in rural Appalachia, right? That's how we pronounce it is. And one of the jokes that people will say is, if you pronounce it Appalachia, I'll throw an apple at you. Right. So like just little like colloquialisms and things like that.

So I grew up Originally, both of my parents worked. I grew up, you know, divorced parents. Both of them worked, but then both had medical issues that led them to no longer being able to work. Right. So for a large portion of my life, I grew up in, in poverty. Right.

So grew up with food stamps, public housing assistance, you know, Medicaid, you know, so for, for the Americans in the audience, right, like it means I grew up super poor. Other countries, you know, you tend to have universal healthcare. So I, I grew up in a very conservative, just, you know, small town, rural America, right? Like conservative, a lot of blue collar work, a lot of very traditional values, things like that. And what I saw growing up was all of the, the quote unquote successful people, right? Like the, the doctors, the entrepreneurs, other people who tended to be in the media or you read about or heard about, none of them ever sounded like me.

So I, through part of my teenage years and especially early college, I tried to lose my accent. Where I grew up, you know, they put Rs in random words. Like you don't say wash, you say warsh. Hand me a warshcloth. You need to go warsh up. Right.

Or spoon is spoom. There's an M in it. And police instead of police. Right. And I grew up what's called a holler. Right.

So the actual word is hollow. H-O-L-L-O-W. We pronounced it holler because I grew up on this hill and everybody was related. But you would be, you know, several, you know, several football fields worth, you know, lengths away from people. So in order to talk, you would yell, you would holler at them because it would echo, right? So I grew up with a holler.

But when I went to college, I was like, okay, I want to be successful. And successful people don't sound like people from my holler. So I pronounced it color instead of collar. What's your favorite collar? Or like, oh, my favorite collar's blue. What's your favorite color?

Color is the proper pronunciation. And I tried to speak, you know, almost like a newscaster because in my mind, successful people sounded a certain way and nobody who came from my neighborhood sounded like that. But what I quickly realized was I disconnected myself from my heritage, right? Because like growing up, you know, I grew up redneck, but I don't have like redneck skills. Like I can't fix a car. I don't understand shit about sports.

Like, because literally, man, like, any time my dad or my grandpa would be like, hey, come here and learn how to change your oil, or here's how to skin a deer, I'll be like, no, no, no, that's fucking for peasants or some shit, right? Like, I'm too good for that. I'm not going to learn that. And like, as an adult, I'm like, damn, I wish I knew how to do half that shit. But I rejected so much of my culture, so much of my heritage growing up because I thought that that was synonymous with being ignorant or, or being, you know, blue collar or it just all these really negative connotations. And it was a weird like elitism, which made no sense.

But when I got to college, I, you know, go to parties, hang out with friends, and there's like one party. So like, I don't drink, but there was one party where a lot of people were drinking, so they started to relax and everybody's accents started coming out. And we're all like, holy shit, like you're from a holler too? Like you're from up, you know, such and such, wherever as well? Like I would've never known that because of how you talk. It's like every single one of us had tried to hide our accents and our heritage to fit in.

But it's like, what are you fitting in for? Right? So from that moment on, I just kind of let my drawl creep back into how I talk. And I became more okay with who I was and my heritage, 'cause it was like, all the things that I love about, you know, growing up and all the people I really care about, they're from this area. So for me to disconnect from my accent, from my heritage, you know, it's kind of like trying to, you know, cut an arm off or something. Like, you're disconnecting from the things you care most about.

So I slowly gave myself permission to be me and to embrace my accent and to embrace, you know, my upbringing. And that's made a world of difference, man, as far as embracing just my own authenticity, which has then led me to a lot of the opportunities over the last couple years that I've, you know, had the ability to have come my way. A lot of that is predicated on embracing my authenticity, which kind of started with embracing my accent again.

[07:38] Paul: When I first came across your work, You definitely stand out as sort of a one of one. And I think people look at that and when people are charting their own paths, they try to aim at, I want to be like Corey or be like someone else. But the truth is we can't actually do that, right? To arrive at that one of one, it actually takes enormous amount of work, that reconnecting, that rediscovering who you are. Was that a conscious process that started around college when you said, okay, I need to reconnect to my roots, figure out how to integrate this whole, or was that something that sort of emerged started so long in your path?

[08:15] Corey Wilks Psy. D: It started in undergrad. Yeah, it started, like I said, by, by realizing that so many of my friends— because like, I was the first person in my family to go to college, like specifically to get like a 4-year degree. Like, my mom has like a junior college degree. So for me, it was— and growing up, I was always told, use your brain, not your body, right? Because again, like, my parents, they had a lot of physical issues going on. And, you know, I'm from like one of like the opioid epidemic capitals, right?

Like I'm from around Huntington, West Virginia. And the way that opioid stuff kind of started was everybody was doing blue-collar, very hard manual labor work. They got injured, they got prescribed, you know, and etc., right? So I was always told, use your brain, not your body. But early on for me, that somehow turned into— and I went through some shit in childhood, like, you know, I went through domestic violence and not with my dad necessarily, but like you know, some of, you know, one of my mom's exes and things. And for me, the way that I felt that I was able to survive was I felt helpless in this situation over here.

'Cause like when you're 8 and like watching, you know, somebody beat the shit outta your mom, like that sticks with you. I had a lot of anger issues growing up and the way that I found to feel a sense of power was by leaning in to my intelligence, right? Like, my mom makes fun of me. Like, I would literally, like, listen. I would read the dictionary in the bathroom. Like, I would just like, I'm going to think my way out of my situation somehow, right?

So for a long time, like, I kind of relied on that. But again, like, I kind of became a prick early on. So I was like, I don't want to be like anybody in my family. I don't want to sound like them. I'm too good for that. Like, I'm going to be this super whatever person.

And the closer to that person I became, the more I just kind of hated myself. I'm like, I don't want to be this guy. Like, this guy's a fucking prick, right? So learning that so many of the people that I looked up to had an accent or they, you know, were from a similar area, learning to undo some of these, these scripts and these personal narratives that I had concocted or had inherited from other, you know, traumatic experiences or whatever. That was really transformative, like recognizing, oh, I can rewrite my story. I can choose how I think about what I've been through, and I can actively become the person I want to be by changing my current behaviors and how I currently think.

So that's when I started embracing my accent, coming to terms with my culture, coming to terms with the things that I had been through, and learning to you know, learning to be grateful for my experiences regardless of how positive or negative they were, and just sort of using that as fuel to transform into the person I wanted to be.

[11:05] Paul: It's been really interesting in the work I've done, the writing, the conversations with people. I thought I was a weirdo when I was younger too. Like, my parents didn't go to college. I didn't really understand how, like, the educated elite worlds worked, and I had to decode that from, like, the outside in. Similarly, I tried to like fit in. Ultimately, like I couldn't really fit in.

I wasn't born in that world. I wasn't of that world. And I've really only in the past 5 years started to actually connect with myself. The crazy thing is almost everyone I talk to about their reflections with work says the same things. So like from your perspective, like from your own experience and as a psychologist, like Why is everyone pretending?

[11:51] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So a sense of belonging is sort of intrinsic to being human, right? That's why throughout history, being ostracized or shunned was like a legitimate punishment, right? Because like it obviously psychologically, but it can also physically hurt us to feel abandoned. And again, you know, evolutionarily it makes sense to group up, right? Because like humans suck in the wild. Like we're not very fast or strong.

We can't climb or swim very well. We, we kind of need to be in a group, which means that we will do almost anything to feel part of a group. The issue is a lot of times we concoct what the group is. We try to become somebody else to fit into a group that may not even actually exist, right? Like, you know, even think, you know, back to high school and like all the cliques and shit, right? Like, I thankfully was able to kind of go back and forth between a couple different of the cliques.

I was probably more one of like, not the weird kids, but like, you know, like the AP student kids. But I didn't come from, you know, a lot of the AP student kids, the advanced placement honors kids, their parents were doctors and lawyers and shit, right? Like mine weren't, right? But that was— but then I knew some of the athletes and every time I would actually get to know some of these groups, you realize there's, there's more, there are more differences within the group than similarities a lot of times. But when you're not a member of that group, you think they're all the same, right? This homogeneity, you think, oh, well, all the jocks are like this, or all their brainiacs are like that.

So if you want to fit in with one of those groups, you tend to bend over backward to do it, right? But then once you get into, you're like, oh, there's actually way more diversity within this group than I realized. So I think a lot of times we so deeply want to belong that we will do anything we can to try to belong to a group that may not even actually be as cohesive as we think it is.

[13:56] Paul: Yeah, and one of the biggest stories is we tell our, we sort of imagine there is a society, right? Like this mass, like fitting into this American societal ideal or whatever country you're from. All these scripts and we sort of imagine it's there and we never stop to think, oh, is this just something I'm creating in my head versus how do I focus on belonging at the scale which will actually improve my life? Is that something like where did you find belonging when you started to lean back into who you were?

[14:34] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So for me, I joined a fraternity in college, right? And I've always kind of been like, I'm oppositional. I just, I am, whether you want to call the black sheep or rebel or whatever, I always gravitated more toward that because I'm like, you know, just as a reaction, especially growing up, I was like, I'm not like these other people, you know? And that's kind of swung both directions. Like before it was maladaptive and then, you know, especially creator economy type stuff, it becomes more adaptive, you know, the, the Pathless Path type, you know, approach. But that struggle is something that is, is hard to navigate.

[15:16] Paul: Yeah, I, well, I think that's interesting because it's something I still grapple with. I think I was always a weirdo, like, in this creator economy. It's actually been great because I find people like you who don't want to, like, have to conform to a group but are like, super excited to like, we can be part of this loose, disaggregated tribe that's like, all right, I see you, you're doing cool stuff, keep going, I support you, but do it in your own weird way, please.

[15:44] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. And so like, and like, so even though I joined a fraternity, right, like I, when I first joined, I was like, I don't drink. I'm not here to do all this other shit. Like, I legitimately want to be like a better leader and learn, you know, all these other things. I want to become, you know, a better person. And though the specific one that I joined at my college, because, you know, they differ from college to college, they were like, hey, we're the black sheep, the black sheep of campus as well.

And that's, and that's sort of the people that we attracted, right? So like, even though like we, we were all under like the same banner of like, you know, this is our fraternity, within us we're like, yes, but we're, we're for the outliers, right? Which whether that's true or not, like every fraternity thinks they're unique or whatever. but that was what attracted me to it. So I, I learned this idea of like, we can be under a similar banner, but be very, very different. So that lesson I took with me, you know, even to today, like you said, like even like the creator economy, like what does being a creator even mean?

Right? Like you and I are both in the creator economy. Like we're both creators, we're both entrepreneurs. So like there's a banner, but there's so much diversity within that. Right. So that, that's a really, for me, a really key piece is you can belong to a group that is so diverse.

There's more diversity than similarity a lot of times in it.

[17:03] Paul: Yeah. I love that. Talk to me about your path getting into psychology. Obviously you were super intellectual and curious. How did you get into that and how did you think about your path early on?

[17:17] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So I actually hated psychology early on. A combination of, like I said, you know, I went through DV growing up and I was, you know, they put me in therapy and it was, it was not helpful because again, I was a super oppositional kid and I would go through, you know, go to, I went through a lot of therapists and shit because, and one of them, she said, she talked to mom, she was like, you know, Miss Wilks, your son is too manipulative for therapy. And I was a kid, I was like, that's fucking awesome.

[17:46] Paul: Mom was like, you know, honey, you beat therapy.

[17:49] Corey Wilks Psy. D: That's exactly what I was like. Because my mom, she was like, honey, that's part of the problem that you think you won. I was like, no, no, no. If I'm like 9 or 10 and I can outthink somebody with a doctorate in psychology, I fucking win. And like, like I said, I was a prick of a kid. And so like, I hated psychology early on.

Like, I hated the therapy world because it was just, it was all, all the stereotypes you hear about with therapy. That was what I went through as a kid. And then I had a couple of psychology classes, you know, either in high school or in early college. And it was just like, read out of the book, you know, here's parts of the brain or whatever. So I thought psychology is bullshit, super soft science bullshit. I don't need it.

And then one day, for my major, I changed my majors like 3 or 4 times. One of the times I had to take a developmental psychology course for my major that wasn't related to psychology. I was like, okay, fine. I was like, yeah, your professor's Dr. Hinton. Okay.

So I walk in, there's like 100 people in this classroom, and I'm expecting some like middle-aged white dude with like, you know, the blazer with like the fucking elbow pads and shit to walk in. And when he talks, chalk just comes out of, you know, his armpits or something. And in walked this young Black dude from Memphis who had, who was covered in tattoos, right? And he, he talked like he was from Memphis. He didn't hide his accent. He didn't speak professorially.

He talked like a real motherfucker. And I was like, you have my attention. Like, you are not what I expected from a psychologist. And so that immediately, you know, I was bought in. But the way he thought about psychology, the way he explained it, and how, you know, sort of people are kind of like puzzles, and part of psychology allows you to understand how those pieces go together. And one of the things that he said that I'll never forget, he said, life isn't about right or wrong.

Life is about perspective. And through psychology, like, we, we get to learn more about that perspective, what creates people's perspectives, how to change perspectives, all that other stuff. So his passion kind of rubbed off on me. And like, that day I went and changed my major to psychology. And then bachelor's, master's, doctorate. Like, and I, and I say all the time, like, Dr.

Keenan Hinton, like, that's the motherfucker that is the reason I'm a psychologist today. Because he started me on this path, right? But now, like, I, I wasn't for psychology at all early on.

[20:17] Paul: Yeah. So when you were doing your doctorate, how were you thinking about how you were going to plan your life path? Right now you're doing something closer to what I'm doing probably than like a clinical psychologist typical path. But where was your head when you were finishing school?

[20:36] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. So I, so again, my doctor's in clinical psychology. So I, throughout school, was training, was optimizing to go into therapy. So all of my training and all of my work experience early on was, how can I do therapy and help people with depression, anxiety, addiction, all that other stuff? So it was very much like default path, right? Of like, go through this school, check off these boxes, fill out this paperwork, get licensed, and then just have a job, until you die.

And for a minute I was okay with that. But what I realized quickly was, and this is what a lot of psychologists more and more are seeing now, is I went into this field to be able to use my, use my training, my expertise to help people live a better life. But I wasn't allowed to really do that. And this is specific to America. I can't speak to psychologists in other countries, but insurance rules all.

[21:32] Paul: Yeah.

[21:32] Corey Wilks Psy. D: And what I quickly realized was insurance companies only cover pathology. They don't cover you when you become what's called subclinical, meaning your insurance will only pay for major depressive disorder, single episode mild, and it'll only cover that for a set number of sessions a lot of times. Well, my job as a therapist is to help you become subclinical to no longer warrant that diagnosis. Not to, not to help you be happy, but to help you be not depressed. Okay. Well, once you are not depressed or not depressed enough, insurance drops you.

So all I was ever allowed to do was to help people get their head above water, to survive, but never to optimize, to flourish, to thrive. None of that, because literally, like, insurance wouldn't pay for that. So And it's also relatively difficult to kind of do your own thing. So I had basically thought going into psychology that I would make a lot of money, I'd be able to work for myself and help people in any capacity. And I quickly learned— well, not quickly, but too late learned— that I would basically always be an employee, always have a lot of bureaucratic red tape that I'd have to navigate. I would never be able to help people as much as I was capable of doing it.

and I would just very much be on that default path and not, not reaching what I considered my potential, both personally and professionally. So I quickly became disillusioned with, with that path.

[23:02] Paul: Yeah, so many people have these ideal visions of their life and their paths, especially health professions. They think, I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to do all the doctor stuff, and they don't realize You're actually 50% of the time doing a lot of administrative paperwork in physical offices, which today is another trade-off that you can actually make. And they don't actually factor in what is the actual job. So it sounds like you came to that realization and also had this deep drive of like wanting to see people thrive. Like, where does that come from? Because you can't like get rid of that.

That's going to stay with you. Like if you have that urge, like I think I share this too, I want to see people thrive and it drives me crazy when they're not. And if something's holding me back from helping someone get there, like I'm going to go crazy. Like, do you, like, where does that drive in you come from?

[23:59] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. So, so two things. One, the therapy world and medical field overall too, defines wellness as the absence of illness. But just because you're not sick doesn't mean you're healthy, right? I didn't even know that. I didn't even— like, that was such a blind spot because everybody around me, we all defined it the same way until I got into coaching.

I was, holy shit, like, wellness is its own separate thing. One of the things that got me to start writing online initially, because, you know, we all struggle with like perfectionism, imposter syndrome, all these fears and things that you know, any creator struggles with, especially early on. You know, I probably wrote for 2 years before I ever hit publish on anything. I was like, oh, it gotta be a little bit better. It gotta, you know, whatever, all the bullshit we all feed ourselves. But then I had 3 friends back to back to back either die or almost die really quickly.

One of my friends, he had been an attorney the majority of his life, and what he really wanted to do was be an author. So, you know, about 2 years ago he had quit practicing law and went all in on this book. Had a lot of potential. A lot of people were really excited for it. And then one day he went to the doctor and he got diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer. 2 weeks later he was gone.

Right. And like part of like the obit for him had, you know, it kind of referenced like, you know, it's tragic, but his book remains unfinished, right? And like, it, as a writer, like, that's a fucking nightmare, right? Like, to die with a book half done, right? And, or anything half written. And then I had, you know, another friend, same thing.

Like, he had wanted to write, finally started a creative writing degree, and then a year in, also had a major medical issue and then died. Third friend, worked her whole life, default path type stuff, and had retired early to enjoy her health. And within the year she was diagnosed with like metastatic breast cancer and is just on like long-term palliative care, right? So I got so pissed off because I watched both, you know, growing up, you know, throughout life, people putting things off or letting limiting beliefs and other things get in their way. And then, you know, all these friends back to back to back struggling with the same thing.

I'm like, I have the skillset to help people do more But the issue is, well, as far as like psychology, the majority of people who are experts either only write for like jargony journals, they're, you know, locked away in the ivory towers of academia, or the people who write a lot of content are just like snake oil salesmen and just bullshit gurus. Like there's not, there aren't a lot of people who are experts who can talk to regular people about, and just talk fucking normal. So when I had all these friends do this back to back to back, I'm like, I can't wait anymore because one, personally, I can't put off what I find fulfilling, but two, I have a responsibility to share the value that I have to help other people do more with their lives, to overcome limiting beliefs, to think bigger, all those other things.

And that was like that day, like I knocked out an article and put it up on like Medium at the time. And it was something about like on death and dying, right? It was, it was literally like that fucking story of like, this is the shit that just happened. Here's why, you know, you can use, you know, your mortality as a motivator to live fully and why it's worth doing. So like from that moment on, that's my whole thing, man, is like too many people put off a fulfilling life because of fear or limiting beliefs and then they die regretting it. So my whole mission in life is to help as many people flourish or build a fulfilling life in business as possible because we get one go at this.

So like, that is my primary mission.

[27:55] Paul: What do you see as some of the— what are the most common limiting beliefs people have that hold themselves back? And which ones do you think probably make more sense? Like, I think some of these limiting beliefs, we do protect ourselves. I think one thing I tried to pull out in The Pathless Path in taking unconventional paths is that it might be awesome, but it might also suck, right? So like, it might be worth it, but it may also be incredibly painful, at least in the short term for like a long stretch of time. I think so much we read and like, this is why I appreciate your perspective so much is like, oh, change your life, become a millionaire.

It's like nobody's actually writing the truth. Nobody's writing, change your life, quit your job, feel totally uncomfortable, weird, and like a failure for years. Your parents might like you less, and then maybe you'll stumble upon the like payoff. So some of our limiting beliefs are sort of like protecting ourselves from them. But what are the ones that like we probably should retire or move past?

[29:08] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. So two things. One, on your point of, you know, it'll probably be uncomfortable for a minute. So there's this term most people probably haven't heard of called eudaimonia. I don't know if it's Greek or Latin or what, probably Greek.

[29:20] Paul: I think it's Greek.

[29:22] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. So you've probably heard the term like hedonic or hedonism, right? The hedonic treadmill or hedonism, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll type shit, right? Things that are very superficially, immediately pleasurable are hedonic, right? Well, the root for hedonic is hedonia, which is just pleasure-seeking, right? So from a clinical perspective, one of the hallmark symptoms for depression is anhedonia, meaning a lack of pleasure in things that used to be pleasurable, right?

So hedonia is If it feels good right now, do it. Eudaimonia is more long-term thinking. Eudaimonia is basically, it may suck today, but in the long run it's worth it. Right? So one of the examples that I love is Justin Wren. He's an MMA fighter and like a philanthropist and things.

His nickname is the Pygmy. So clearly he's a giant-ass white dude. Um, and Justin is very passionate beyond MMA. He's very passionate about helping the pygmy population in the Congo gain access to clean drinking water and, and other things, right? Overall quality of life improvements. But he's gotten malaria like 3 times going over there because apparently even if you get like the vaccine and things, you can still just get malaria.

So he's a really good example of eudaimonia because If you talk to him on a day he has malaria, you'd be like, hey Justin, how are you feeling today? He'd be like, I feel like fucking shit. I have malaria. So not pleasurable. But if you said, hey Justin, is this suffering today worth the outcome in the long run? And he would say yes every day.

So that's an important piece with fulfillment, with flourishing, thriving, whatever term you want, self-actualization, whatever term you want to put to it. Is you have to understand suffering sometimes is part of the process. So it isn't, does it feel good today? That isn't a helpful question so much as, is it worth it in the long run? Because that's the thing that trips up a lot of people, right? So, you know, you and I both seen this with creator economy type shit.

People try to enter it and they're like, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm all about being a creator. And then they post some shit on Instagram for 2 weeks. They don't blow up or get hundreds of thousands of dollars in sponsorships. And then they're like, oh, this isn't for me. Right? Well, you didn't come at this with the right perspective.

You didn't see it long-term or why it's important. So that's one piece, right? Is, you know, Mark Manson says, what's your favorite flavor of shit sandwich? Right? Like, it's what suffering is worthwhile in the long run. So that's one piece.

Specifically on limiting beliefs. So I call the 4 most common limiting beliefs the 4 Horsemen of Fear. And these are the 4 most common ones that I see both in my own life with coaching and just all the people I know. So these are fear of failure, right? Everybody's familiar with that one. You know, what if this doesn't work out?

What if I'm not good enough? Whatever. The fear of ridicule, which you see a lot in the creator economy because ridicule, criticism, rejection, those kinds of things. Fear of ridicule is what will other people think? How will my friends and family react to this thing that I want to do or that I've created, put out into the world? There's fear of uncertainty.

And this is where people are like, well, you know, should I use Hemingway or Grammarly or Scrivener? Like shit like that, right? Like, which is the perfect, you know, second brain system for me? Is it Notion, Obsidian, you know, whatever? Like, that's just a smokescreen, right? Because you're afraid of uncertainty.

So you just sit there and you try to find the perfect system, but you never actually do anything, right? Because you're so afraid of making the wrong decision that you make no decision. And the fourth one that trips up so many people is fear of success. And it doesn't make sense at first, because you're like, why would I be afraid to achieve the thing I claim to want? But for a lot of us, and this really comes down to like scripts and things, right? Some people believe they don't deserve success.

Well, if you believe you are unworthy of success, you're probably going to self-sabotage consciously or unconsciously. For other people, success represents like a binary before and after state. So if you've never achieved major success, however you define that, the only version of you that you are familiar with is pre-success. So becoming successful represents crossing a threshold and becoming a different version of you that is foreign. So, you know, things I hear a lot from people are like, well, what if I lose my ambition? What if it means I've peaked in life and there's nothing else, right?

Or You know, what if I become corrupted by power and influence because I achieve niche fame and people hang on my every word? Like, I'm not prepared to deal with that level of influence. So because we have these fears, these limiting beliefs, a lot of times we self-sabotage again, consciously or unconsciously, to avoid that thing we're actually afraid of. But those tend to be the most common limiting beliefs that I see.

[34:23] Paul: Yeah, those are so powerful and The interesting thing I've learned is that these fears are so much more powerful before you've actually stepped into the unknown or a new path. The only thing, like, you can't— what I've learned is you can't actually solve fear. What you can is have a relationship with it. So I still have a fear of being ridiculed. It's helped me manage that by basically being ridiculed. And surviving it, right?

I, I don't really have a fear of uncertainty. The thing that helps me manage that is basically just like surviving to play another month. And the longer I go, you sort of forget that this isn't normal. The fear of success, super fascinating. I think I've really been contemplating that one over the last year. I'm 5 years into this journey.

And I've been trying to ask questions like, what is a more ambitious version of my path? What is the version of the path people could root for? And I, I have this legacy of like, I have this idea. I didn't want to create another job for myself, but I think, I think part of that was useful. Part of that was useful in giving me space to reconnect with myself. But I think part of it was me wanting to slow myself down because I was scared.

And I've finally come to terms with that, which is all to say, like, we never fully solve any of these. Is that your experience that you just basically keep questioning and reflecting and learning to dance with them?

[35:59] Corey Wilks Psy. D: That, yeah. So two things. One, ultimately we fear the unknown, right? So when you make the unknown known, or at least knowable, you, you sort of rob fear of its power over you, right? And for some people that means leaning into it, right? Like, If you're afraid of ridicule and then you become ridiculed, you're like, oh shit, I didn't die.

Like, I can deal with that, right? Like, I can recover somehow. All right. So that, that makes it a lot more concrete and approachable and just manageable. But the other thing is like these fears cycle, like you never— like you may conquer an element of them, but they're always coming back up, right? And it isn't like, okay, I no longer have fear of failure.

It's like, Well, you could have overcome that one and then cycled through a couple more, and then this new thing, that fear crops right back up, right? They're always coming up in some iteration. And that's why, like you said, like it's important to develop a healthier relationship with them, right? Can you use this fear as fuel of like, oh, well, this is an indicator that I'm on the right path because if it's super boring and I'm not inspired, fear doesn't pop up. But if I'm really emotionally invested because I know this is a really valuable thing for me to do, logically fear's gonna pop up, right? So the fact that fear is popping up may mean I'm on the right path for me right now, right?

That it could be an indication, right? Or maybe this fear fuels you of like, okay, well, I would rather deal with this fear than complacency, right? The whole like, you know, comfort zone and growth and all, you know, all that conversation. So a lot of times it isn't about completely removing fear. It's diminishing fear to the point that it doesn't hold you back from doing meaningful work.

[37:49] Paul: I love that. This would be a good way to transition to your, to your own leap. Um, so you decided to leave clinical psychology and chart your own path in 2020. What were the fears about taking that leap you were dealing with and how did you decide to embark on this new path?

[38:08] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah, so the, the advisable way to, to go into entrepreneurship and the creator economy overall is do it as a side hustle. And then once you have a certain amount of income, then you leave your job, right?

[38:21] Paul: I didn't get that luxury. I want to pause on this. So I think that's actually like, I think some of that advice is overrated. And maybe you're like me, but like, I didn't have the capacity in my state in that mode of like working full-time to actually generate enough enthusiasm to do the side hustle thing. I had a couple experiments that was like proof I could do other stuff, but I'm like you. I just like, I had to rip the bandaid and get some space.

So I, I'm actually starting to think that like we're more normal and that this like myth of like creating side income is like I feel like that's a very small percentage of people, but I just wanted to hone in on that, but you can keep going.

[39:03] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah, no, I, and that's what I was gonna say, like, that isn't the path I took, but if you're like super anxious about that, that is a more approachable way to do it. Oh yeah. Um, but also like, also, man, for me, like I said, like a steady paycheck goes a long way to keep you from doing meaningful work. Right? Because there's such an opportunity cost to quitting that job. Right?

And that's the thing a lot of people don't talk about with this, that whole fucking conversation is like the opportunity cost is monumental because not only are you not making that income anymore, you're still, you got bills to pay. Right? So like quitting a job to do something with all the uncertainty around it is terrifying. Right. But for me, I was— it was twofold. One, I got fired.

So that just to kick out the fucking nest, because long story short, I was— I had negotiated a remote therapy job and I— 2 months into that contract, my employer quit supporting remote positions. So it had nothing to do with like my actual work. It's just they were like, hey, fuck you, pretty much. The way therapy licensure works in the US, I can be anywhere in the world.

[40:20] Paul: Oh yeah, that's crazy.

[40:21] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah, I can be anywhere in the world, but you as my patient have to physically be in the state I'm licensed in during that call. You don't have to be a resident, you just have to have your two feet on a piece of dirt. I'm licensed to practice therapy in West Virginia, and I was living in Kentucky. I couldn't find another remote job based in West Virginia. I wasn't willing to move back because we had just moved two months ago. And I, in order for me to get licensed in Kentucky, would have taken 4 to 6 months because like the board only met like once every other month and they only saw 2 or 3 candidates at a time and they were already booked up 2 meetings, right?

Just a bunch of bullshit. Like the therapy world is so fucking backward.

[40:58] Paul: Yeah, my sister's in that world, so she looks at it. Yeah, she tells us some of the stuff and I'm like, maybe you should follow a different path. Yeah, it's crazy.

[41:10] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So I got fired, and the, the issue was I had 30 days notice and I had like 3 paychecks of runway because like I wasn't preparing to get fired, right? So I hadn't like saved up like 6 months or anything like that. I'd really had very, very minimal cushion, and I was like, fuck, what do I do? So I had considered coaching for a minute. The issue was the coaching field, like executive coaching, life coaching, all that other shit, is the Wild West. Like There's no rules, there's no regulations.

And I had a lot of internalized stigma. And this goes back to Scripps, because all through college, you know, psychologists are kind of elitist in the mental health field because it's like most degrees you can practice therapy without a doctorate. Psychology, you tend to have to have one. So we're like, we're better educated than everybody. We're not fucking life coaches. So I was like, well, I can't call myself a coach.

Like, I can't. Like, that's bullshit. I'm too qualified. But I read this article by the American Psychological Association, and they were basically like, hey, Coaching is the Wild West. It is unregulated. However, that means if you have a mental health background, you should join this field to improve the quality of it because you would stand out.

And one of the people quoted in the article, his name is Dr. Jeffrey Arbok. He works with the College of Executive Coaching, largely run by psychologists for psychologists or the people with grad degrees. So I ended up going through them. I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to be a fucking coach now. Went through them and then, you know, became a certified coach just to have that little credential, um, so that nobody could, you know, say I was trying to practice therapy without a license.

And then learned entrepreneurship just by like Googling and YouTubing shit. And then like I ended up connecting with some super cool people on Twitter who were willing to lend a hand and just like teach me like how to spin up a website, copywriting, how to create an offer, like just little things, because I have no business background. Like, everything I've done the last 20 months, like, that, that's it. It's just bumblefucking my way through. So it was a combination of, I can no longer go back to therapy, well, now let me go all in on this shit that I've always wanted to do but never gave myself permission to, and now I no longer have an excuse not to. So I'm forever thankful that I got fired, even though it was super shitty at the time.

[43:31] Paul: Yeah. And this was during the pandemic, right?

[43:33] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. This is peak COVID. Yeah.

[43:36] Paul: So where was your— I mean, where was your head at the time? Like, how did you start? Like, obviously the moment you find out you're fired, you're kind of in reaction mode. When did you start saying, okay, my new path is not in the psychology world, I'm going to brave this world of self-employment, maybe coaching is a piece of that. How did you start putting together the pieces to formulate a vision of where you were headed?

[44:04] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Thankfully, from where I had been working remote for a couple months, I got a taste of a life I had never had before where, like, alone, I could wear pajamas all day. I fucking love pajamas because I hate khakis. I hate having to wear khakis and a polo, which I had to do for work. I loved being able to, if I, at noon, I could just go into the kitchen and make lunch with my girlfriend or something. Like, I I loved not having to commute, all that other things. So I was like, okay, well, at that point I was like, okay, well, I'm going to find a job that's remote.

I don't want to go back into the office because that isn't for me. Like, I'm a hermit. I love my little setup. But then when I started looking for all these therapy jobs, I just, I got like this, this just sinking feeling in my stomach again of like, I'm just going back to the same shit with a different fucking job. Of dealing with all this paperwork, all this bureaucracy, not being able to actually help people as much as I want to help them and as much as they want to be helped. You know, being beholden to insurance and, you know, filing shit a certain way, making sure I'm coding their diagnosis appropriately, all the things that get in the way of actually fucking helping people.

And I was like, and, you know, I applied to a couple of jobs and then I was just like, you know, this isn't for me anymore. Ultimately, I want to write, I want to connect with people, and I want to use my expertise to help people build what I call an intentional life, right? Which is flourishing, fulfillment, whatever. So it was like, how can I do that on my terms? And the most logical thing was entrepreneurship. Create your own business, you know, and do it yourself.

Quit waiting for somebody else to give you permission to give your value to the world. And that was just like, okay, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I'll figure it out. And like, for me, man, especially like with this whole Pathless Path thing, that is for me the most helpful empowering phrase you can say to yourself is, I don't know, but I'll figure it out. Right? Like, don't, none of this bullshit of like, fake it till you make it. And also, you know, I don't know, but I'll figure it out.

And just taking an iterative mindset, an iterative approach has helped me so much to overcome imposter syndrome, perfectionism, all these limiting beliefs. Cause it's like, Yeah, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I'll figure it out.

[46:23] Paul: I feel like that could be the title of your future book. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I will figure it out. Um, that, that's so, it's so simple, but it's so profound because it does, it just gets rid of all those scripts. Like we have all these scripts, these success scripts. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I'm going to be a creator.

I'm going to succeed. I'm going to crush this course. It's like, Nope. None of us know what we're doing, especially when you're on paths like ours. Literally, you're just making— I described this to a friend recently. I was like, literally all I do is make up stuff in my head and then I try some of them and then I fumble and figure stuff out.

And then like sometimes they work, most of the times they don't. And that is, that is like really hard to understand. But once you realize that, it's kind of freeing. You can be looser with your path. You can kind of laugh at it. And approach it like that.

So with, with your path, I wanted to actually call out a tweet you tweeted. This was like a month ago. You said, okay, I made— and this kind of relates to what we're talking about— I made $27,000 in a single month. What they don't want to hear: I made zero for the first 6 months. Took 18 months of grinding to get here. It was filled with uncertainty and doubt the whole time.

The outcome's pretty, the process isn't. And I asked you what kept you going like, and this is hard to put in words because I think it was similar for me. Like I was telling my aunt the other day, I was like, she's like, I'm so pumped. You're like finally making good money and feeling good about your path. I'm like, yeah, it's crazy though, because I felt so stupid and I couldn't actually explain to anyone where I was headed. But I knew deep in my heart that like I was headed somewhere interesting or at least worth following, even if I failed.

What kept you going? Like, what is it? This like inner drive? Is it— what is it?

[48:29] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Two things. In a nutshell, it's because I can't imagine doing anything else. So I am willing to accept whatever sacrifices are necessary to do it. Okay. Longer version is, so I'm a huge fan of the Stoic concept of memento mori, right? So, you know, remember death or remember you will die.

And it isn't meant to be depressing or whatever. It's meant to say, hey, use your mortality as a motivator to live fully, right? Like this little skull in my background, like my whole like right tattoo sleeve is, you know, dedicated to memento mori. And so I got fired in December and then in January, a couple weeks later, I thought I had a hairline fracture on my leg. So I do martial arts. So like big bruises and fractures, you sometimes you just, you get them.

So I was like, ah, fuck it, I'll walk it off. And it actually ended up being a really bad infection. I waited too long to go to the doctor because I was like, oh, it's just, it's a little thing. It'll go away. By the time I got there, they were like, hey, you have a super bad infection. It could get into your bloodstream or your bones.

And if it has, you could die. This is peak COVID. So the hospital beds were full. They couldn't transfer me to surgery. And the IV drip for antibiotics they had me on, I was unresponsive to. So for like 12 hours or longer, I was just sitting in this waiting room with unresponsive to, to meds, waiting to get transferred for surgery.

The labs hadn't come back yet. We had no idea how bad it had actually gotten. They finally transfer me and I'm gonna be, you know, sent up to surgery the next, you know, in the morning. I, this is after visitor hours, right? So I was just alone in a, in a hospital bed at night. And it was like snowing.

Like, my girlfriend had to like go home and like in super dangerous roads and shit because they wouldn't let her stay. You know, we're only a couple of months into living in a new place. I don't know anybody. And I remember thinking, because all I had for company was like this beeping machine and the occasional nurse checking vitals and like taking blood or something. And I remember sitting there in the hospital bed thinking, I could die tonight or tomorrow. Like this could be my last day.

And I asked myself, if this had been my last week alive, am I satisfied with how I spent my time? And for me, this was a much more effective thought experiment than, what if you have 30 days to live? That isn't helpful because if you know shit's going to happen, you can be like, oh, I'm going to go to fucking Vegas or skydive or party. Like, that isn't helpful. But if you can only look in retrospect, that is way more powerful because immediately you can see all the bullshit you let into your life that you didn't have to. All the things you did out of a sense of obligation.

That week I looked back and I said, I spent time with loved ones. I wrote, I was working on this new project that gave me, you know, tons of energy and I got to train. If this is my last week alive, I am satisfied. With how I may go out. I don't want to go out now. I want more time.

We all do. But if so, I'm satisfied. And ever since then, every week I ask myself that same fucking question, because any week that the answer is no, I'm not satisfied, I look at all the things that are the reason why that's my answer. And then I say, okay, next week, whatever is within my power to change, I'm going to fucking change. So anytime I say, well, I really wanted to do X, but fear got in my way, I allowed fear to get in my way or I allowed all this bullshit, I overcomplicated it or whatever to get in my way, I immediately say, fuck that, not again. Right?

So for these months that I wasn't making, you know, money and I was coaching, volunteering to coach and get testimonials and shit, whatever, I was like, look, this is filling me with so much fucking energy and I'm, you know, memento mori type shit. Like, what the fuck else am I going to do? I will eat beans and rice for a minute if I fucking need to, because this life, money aside, is the most fulfilling thing that I can think of for me and is the best way for me to share the value I have to give to the world. I will accept nothing less than this regardless of the price tag attached to it. So if I make $100, if I make $20,000, cool. Because I know what I would do if I never had to worry about money again, because I know what I did when I didn't have money.

It's the same shit. The only difference, like, if I made like fucking millions of dollars or some shit, I'd have more pajama pants and eat sushi more often, probably. Like, that's it. Like, that's like my day-to-day life. I just want to fucking write, hang out with cool fucking people like you, and help people. That's it.

Maybe travel more. That's it.

[53:27] Paul: It's so true.

[53:27] Corey Wilks Psy. D: It—

[53:28] Paul: that resonates so much with my story and The thing I'm curious about is so many people sort of know what the gaps are in their life or what the things they want to change. How do you develop that capacity to actually implement it? Right? Oftentimes it does take these crises, right? These health crises. For me, it was a series of health crises and losing people in my family that were like, wake up, Paul, you have to actually do what you say.

Otherwise you're a bullshit artist. But how do you start to develop that capacity to actually turn these reflections of what we want to be different into change in our lives?

[54:08] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So a near-death experience is a great thing I recommend to nobody, right? Like, I don't recommend doing it, but it's super fucking powerful. And you see that, right? Like, everybody who has a near-death experience, they're like, shit totally changed, right? I'm more grateful. I'm more present.

All this other shit. So it's like, how do you bottle that? How do you get the same mindset shift without risking actual death? And that's hard to do. Obviously you can, you know, study philosophy, you know, Memento Mori, or pick up a book on it or some shit. I think there's a new book, it's called like 4,000 Weeks or some shit somebody recommended.

I haven't checked it out yet, but like things like that. Tim Urban has talked about on, you know, Wake Up Why or whatever. There are a couple exercises you can do because here's the thing. When it comes to fear, limiting beliefs, questioning yourself, all sorts of shit, it's all a matter of perspective. And this goes back to what I said, you know, with what Keelan said about, you know, how life is about perspective. Anytime we overcomplicate something or we let fear get in our way or all this other bullshit, It's because we have lost perspective.

Fear makes us lose perspective. It makes us myopic. We get so short-sighted of what if I fail? What if I succeed? What if people make fun of me? Whatever, that we lose sight of what actually matters.

The value we have to give, the legacy we want to build and leave behind, the people we want to help, whatever. So doing whatever you can to cultivate a more empowering, adaptive perspective that actively moves you forward into the person you want to become and the life you want to have, that is, for me, the most effective route forward. So, you know, simple shit like, you know, write your fucking eulogy, for example. Like, how do you want people to talk about you when you're gone? Like, that can be a really good slap in the face. One of the things that a lot of us have done, it's like when I was in high school, right?

We did that letter, you know, write a letter to yourself 10 years from now, right? So 18-year-old me wrote to 28-year-old me, And like when I, when I got that letter, I was like, all the shit I thought was important fucking wasn't right. Like the girl that I was dating, we broke up like 3 months after I wrote that letter. My best friend, you know, we hadn't talked in 8 years, all that shit, right? And you can do the same thing hypothetically from your 80-year-old self to you now, right? Because like simplifying the math, the overall life expectancy is around 80 years.

Okay. What the fuck would your 80-year-old self tell you today? What did they achieve? How, you know, do their children or grandchildren speak about them? What kind of person, what kind of man or mother or whoever are they? Right?

What did they think mattered at your age that turned out to not matter? Right? And all that exercise does is help you develop a longer-term perspective and see things beyond your current worldview. That can be very powerful again, to just help you see things from a different perspective than your, your day-to-day.

[57:21] Paul: I love that. So powerful. I think these kinds of exercises have been great for me too. I sort of go through these exercises and it does actually enable you to take these different perspectives. It sounds like you're integrating a lot of your experience in the one-on-one coaching and one-on-one therapy work that you've done into your course, Intentional Life Design, which I love that you're teaching. I sort of like created something like this a few years ago and I don't really run it.

So I'm glad you're running it and I'm like all hands, like ready to support you however you want. What, how have you found like applying these things to a group online experience, which I think is so powerful because these virtual online experiences, uh, I think are the future, like learning for adults. Um, and it seems very silly to outsiders right now, but if you're in the mix, you're seeing like, oh my gosh, people are being transformed.

[58:23] Corey Wilks Psy. D: And you keep seeing the same people. Because like once you get into the world, you're just like, oh, this is, this is awesome. So I coach people one-on-one and I quickly realized that although I love coaching people one-on-one, because there's a lot of depth you can get, again, I ran up, I ran into this issue of, for lack of a better word, scale. Impact is a better word. I couldn't have the impact only seeing people one-on-one, only helping people one-on-one. So I decided to take a lot of the frameworks that I use in one-on-one coaching and kind of turn it into a curriculum that is very applied and very, you know, built around exercises that added a community element, right?

So like you said, mine is called Intentional Life Design. And all an intentional life to me is, is a life, you call it self-actualization, flourishing, fulfillment, An intentional life is a life that is aligned with your core value, the thing that fundamentally resonates with you and what a life well-lived must be built around, right? So like my core value is freedom. So everything, so an intentional life to me is a life aligned with freedom, whatever that looks like for me specifically, because there's no one-size-fits-all. So I took all of these best elements from, from 101, turned it into a curriculum, and then added this community element because You know, just like you, man, like with this whole Pathless Path thing and the creator economy overall, it can be a very lonely road, especially if you're from an environment to where nobody gets that, right?

Like my closest friends that I've known for, you know, almost 20 years at this point, none of them get it, right? Like they support me in their way, but none of them are on this current path necessarily, right? A couple of them are kind of dabbling right now. But they don't get it. I was— I grew up, like I said, in poverty. I didn't know entrepreneurs.

I didn't, you know, creator economy, like all this shit, I had no idea. So when I would try initially, when I would talk about this, even when I had a job, man, I would talk about like, yeah, I want to write to like help make psychology more accessible to people. And every one of my coworkers looked at me like I had 4 fucking eyes. They're like, what? Yeah, sure, man. Cool.

You do that. I don't know. Right? Like they just— they didn't. Get it. So I made this into a community-based course because having other people around you who get it and who can support you and lend a hand or just lend, just, just support is transformative.

Like the reason I'm here today, like I, I, you know, I took some courses and I met people who like, they proved the model. They proved that I, that I could do this entrepreneur thing. Because even if I questioned myself and even if they weren't in a position to give me specific feedback, the fact that I knew a real fucking person who made this work kept me on this path, right? So that's why I had this community element. It's just, it's a bunch of people who are dedicated to being more intentional with how they live, work, and create, whatever that means to them. Because that's, man, like for me, community is where it's at.

Like people can copy your content. Content's cool. Like it's got to be good, but You can Google most of this shit, right? The community is where the real transformation happens for a lot of people.

[01:01:39] Paul: Yeah. The first time I ran a cohort around this stuff, I think the most interesting thing for me was you shift from this like, okay, I need to deliver a lot of value. You need to like organize everything. And then you realize, oh wow, they're learning from each other. And the power of saying somebody like me is going through something like that. Therefore, I can do this as well.

It's another form of perspective taking. It can radically shift your experience. I think my wife Angie went through Write a Passage and went through some of the mentor sessions with you, and that was so transformative for her because I think she had similar scripts. She's an outsider to the US. She's from another country and She had these ideas like a successful person looks like Paul, has a— it doesn't work like me, but like a successful person like looks like Paul, but like is in the corporate world making good salary, talking in a certain way. And actually the mentor session with you where you were like, actually you can just show up as who you are, accent and all, and bring that to alive.

I think that was so freeing. For her. So I know she would thank you. And I think one interesting thing, like I wanted to ask you, I think you have such an ability to sort of mirror the people you're talking to and give them the lens and the feedback that they need. You're, you're good at like ramping up or down the F-bombs based on who you're talking to.

[01:03:20] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Thanks.

[01:03:21] Paul: I noticed in your convo with Chris Williamson, a lot of F-bombs on Modern Wisdom. Makes sense for his energy. In this one, I'm noticing a little less. How do you think about like how, what sort of energy you're bringing as the person that's reflecting back and helping people grow?

[01:03:38] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So this is one of those, I guess, skills that if you practice it enough, it becomes just inherent or intrinsic, right?

[01:03:48] Paul: Yeah, it seems very genuine. I don't think it's something you're like trying to manipulate or anything.

[01:03:55] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah, it's so originally the therapy world, right? We call it building rapport, right? Because whether you're doing therapy or coaching or anything like that, your primary job is to create an environment where people feel safe to, to be vulnerable, to, to be authentic. And the way you do that is through connection. And early, and this, you know, goes back to our original conversation around authenticity. Early on, I was told I needed to be a certain type of person, right?

Like, don't cuss, don't show your tattoos, dress a certain way, be more formal, whatever. And every time I tried to do that, I felt so inauthentic that it got in my way of connecting with other people. And over, you know, the last 15+ years or whatever, I've really tried to completely do away with that script and say, who the fuck am I and how can I use who I am most authentically, but also being professional, right? They're not mutually exclusive. How can I use my own authenticity to give other people permission to embrace their own authenticity? I was talking to Kevin Shin about this the other day, the, cause you know, Kevin, Kevin's made a name for himself, you know, big into like the studio setup and things.

And that was something he and I were talking about is like, when you embrace your own authenticity, you give other people permission to embrace their own. Because fundamentally, all we want is to be ourselves and to be accepted for who we are. So I try really hard. That's a— I don't actually. I try very genuinely to embrace my own authenticity. At this point, I'm not trying hard.

It's just who I am. Right. So that for me has been really transformative and it all started with, oh, you need to build rapport with people. Here's how you build rapport. You need to practice active listening and you ask open questions and you know, all the classical skills. But the whole purpose of all of it is how can you form a connection with somebody?

So for some, and mirroring is a really good way of describing it, right? Like I don't think about it as mirroring, but that's a great way to describe it. Of like, who is the person in front of me? What do they best respond to that coincides with an aspect of me and my authenticity? So yes, sometimes it is cussing a lot, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's making certain jokes and not others.

It depends, right? But it's very much like, you know, we contain multitudes sort of deal. So there isn't a one version of you. There isn't a, you, there's versions of you, right? So that to me is sort of how I approach it is what aspects of me would best connect with this person that would help them feel comfortable being who they are. Yeah.

[01:06:44] Paul: And it seems rooted in you, you care, like you care deeply. That's the authentic version of you showing up. A powerful lens for me has been basically figuring out who I'm not serving. Because when I'm trying to pretend or trying to be someone I'm not, that's when you just, you start committing to things you're not actually good at, you can't deliver on. And especially as a creator, narrowing in on, okay, I'm, I'm not trying to help people in traditional jobs who are crushing it. I don't know how to help them.

I sucked at that. But I am happy to help like unconventional weirdos who are taking some sort of creative path. And in that mode, I can show up fully as myself. Have you had to define like who you're not working for as well?

[01:07:34] Corey Wilks Psy. D: To an extent, yes. So I'm still not like niche down right enough. I'm sure that just doesn't really jive with how I think about things.

[01:07:43] Paul: Yeah, it's a constant. For me, it's been more of a process of like just committing deeper and deeper to what I care about rather than like defining a niche. I let my curiosity guide me. I want some people to be offended and stop following me in the sense that like, well, my curiosity changed. I'm not going to keep talking about that. You need to go find someone else.

[01:08:09] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So that's a super good, good point. So two things. One, I chose to write fully under my name. Some people use a pseudonym, right? So one of the women in Write of Passage, her name's Charlie Bleeker, right?

[01:08:23] Paul: Yeah.

[01:08:24] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Charlie isn't her name, right?

[01:08:26] Paul: Yeah. I love her writing.

[01:08:27] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. So Charlie and I take opposite paths for the same reason. She uses a pseudonym because she feels that allows her to be more authentic. I use my full name and credential because I feel it, it, it removes all friction for me because early on I tried to write not under a pseudonym, but like under like a more of like a business name. I was like, oh, this is, you know, my website is what it's called. And I felt like I was shoehorning myself.

I was trying to force who I was through this and it just created way too much friction. So finally I was like, I'm just going to write under my fucking name. My website is going to be my name. And this is just, this is me. There's no pretense. There's nothing.

This is who I am. And that freed me. Because like, if I want to talk about something else, you, you're here because of fucking Corey Wilks Psy. That's it. Right. That was really freeing for me.

But the other thing, as far as like, how do you send out the right signal to attract the right sort of, you know, people, right? This is with creator economy. It's great because you don't really have to fuck with like a resume or CV anymore. Every piece of content you create is a living portfolio. So people know who you are and how you think. And this is one of my biggest pieces of advice for like people who are aspiring coaches is just fucking write.

Most coaches don't write. They just, they throw up a website with a bullshit little bio and like, hey, book your free 15-minute call now. It's like, I don't know who the fuck you are. Like, I don't know how you think, how you problem solve, how you approach anything, right? Writing alone will set you apart from most coaches. But so for me, I'm like, you know who I am when you see my, my profile picture.

Right? Like, I need to get more headshots because you told me I need to smile in them more. But like, my, my profile picture isn't some shit you expect to see on LinkedIn. It tells you immediately, like, I'm not a corporate guy. I don't wear suits and shit. Like, I mean, I rarely do.

And, you know, on Chris's podcast, on Modern Wisdom, after that episode, I had an editor from Psychology Today reach out to me and he was like, hey man, I really liked what you had to say on that podcast. Would you be willing to write for us on like human flourishing and fulfillment? And I was like, that's fucking cool. Like, I've looked up to Psychology Today for, you know, since I changed my major. And I was like, oh no, but like, what if I have to like change how I talk or change, you know, whatever? And then I'm like, no, this guy saw me on Chris's podcast.

He knows exactly who I am and how I think. There was no interview process. There was no changing who I am. It's like, You know exactly who I am. So all the people who come to me know who I am beforehand, right? Like, you know, one of our friends, Art, he, he talked, you know, he, he and I worked together early on and he was like, look, man, Nassim Taleb has this quote that basically goes, anytime you have to pick between two doctors, choose the one who doesn't look like a doctor.

And he was like, that's why I reached out to you. Because you look— because you are different, you are clearly authentic. So that is the biggest piece of advice that I can give, is like, when you create a portfolio of your work, people self-select. People know who you are, and the people who you resonate with come to you, right? David Perell's whole concept, like a serendipity vehicle type thing. That to me is, is probably the most transformative habit that I can recommend, is just share who you are online and you will attract the right people.

[01:11:52] Paul: Yeah, I love that. Did you start writing for Psychology Today?

[01:11:55] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yes. Yeah, I have like 4 articles up right now.

[01:11:57] Paul: Yeah. Amazing. I will, I'll definitely link to that. And it's so true. I think this is something that is underappreciated and I want to touch on the brand idea for a moment because I think we're shifting away from this idea that like we need to build these brands. And one of the failure modes I see in people taking an unconventional path or self-employed path is they think I need to have a brand name for my company.

I need to build a webpage around that. I need to offer services. And I call this like mistaking yourself for a company. Like you're basically just a human. Luckily, I think the trends have shifted towards like just showing up as yourself and the personal brand, the personal portfolio. But I think there's, there's also some use sometimes in doing the brand for like the first 3 months, just as a way to like, even hide a little behind it and like give yourself the, like, fake courage to take that leap and commit to it.

I was Vivo Strategies in my first 6 months. Like, I'm not Vivo Strategies. You're laughing, right? Because it's like, yeah, that's not Paul.

[01:13:06] Corey Wilks Psy. D: But that sounds official, right?

[01:13:09] Paul: That was me still trying to play the game of thinking I had to be someone. And then quickly you realize, oh, they're just hiring Paul Millerd as the freelancer. I don't need to be Vivo Strategies with my service offerings and transformation programs. It's just Paul who can help you with stuff, who's good at ABC. And there's so much power in that. And I think it's still so early and the writing is such a transformative vehicle.

[01:13:39] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yeah. And so, right, defining branding, right? Because like the thing that trips, that trips people up, that, that tripped me up too, is we think a brand is just design, right? Like what hex code should, you know, should my primary color be or what font should I use and shit like that matters so little, especially early on because like even major companies like Coca-Cola or Pepsi shit change their fucking logos like they evolve. Like you're allowed to evolve. but it trips up so many people like, okay, I have to get like, buy this domain.

Oh, the.com's taken. Should I do like.net or should I just change a different one? Or, you know, let me look at this branding kit. And that virtually doesn't matter at all. And even if it does matter, it doesn't matter in the beginning. I like, man, I hired like professional designers to like come up with a fucking logo.

And then like, then I was like, no, I need to change it. Then I hired more people to design a different logo. Like, Nobody's ever like, go ahead.

[01:14:37] Paul: I think that ritual can be valuable, right? It's sort of like this way of shifting into this new world.

[01:14:45] Corey Wilks Psy. D: It can be, right? Like, and that it's like, it's also a trap. It's like a rite of passage, right? Like it represents the crossing of a threshold into something more, right? The issue is, like you said, it becomes a trap because people spend 4 weeks figuring out their hex code or they're setting up their website, right? And it's like, when it becomes, when it turns into friction, when it is preventing you from just putting yourself out there and doing work that matters, that's when it's time to be like, good enough, let's move the fuck forward, right?

But beyond like the design element, the way I think about branding now is what is my reputation? What reputation am I actively trying to build? I think about it much less as brand and much more as reputation. Because that's because I'm not a designer. Like, I— design trips me up all day. Like, any, anything, literally.

Like, you can ask my girlfriend. Like, if my girlfriend is like, hey, if we painted the walls this color, what would you think? I can't see it in my mind. Like, I cannot. Or what if we move the couch to this wall? I have no idea.

I literally can't see it in my mind.

[01:15:50] Paul: I just asked Nate, Nate Cadillac, any questions I have about design.

[01:15:54] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So exactly right.

[01:15:56] Paul: So I'm like, plug for Nate Cadillac. Everyone needs a Nate in their life.

[01:15:59] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yes. 80/20. Of design. And, and, but that's my thing, man. It's like, what reputation am I trying to build? That's it.

So whatever piece of, like, if I'm, you know, put out a fucking thread or a new article, how does this fit into the reputation of who I am and who I want to be? That simplifies the whole process for me.

[01:16:20] Paul: That's such a good question. So a couple rapid-fire questions before we wrap up. Um, One question I've been asking people is, what— do you have a path role model? Somebody on a path like yours, maybe they're far ahead of you, maybe they're not far ahead of you, that you admire and you're like, I like that path. I want to pick and choose some good things from that.

[01:16:45] Corey Wilks Psy. D: So as far as people who inspire my path, Ryan Holiday, because, you know, I— part of my path will be, you know, writing books. David Perell, because he's doing phenomenal work with courses and creating a movement around online writing. And Ali Abdaal, right? Because Ali, same thing, doing really, you know, making really big moves and helping people live their best life on their terms, right? There are, you know, there are plenty of other people, but these are the people I routinely come back to when it comes to where's the gap between me and them and, and what have they already relatively figured out that I can use as a template for what I'm trying to do?

[01:17:30] Paul: Yeah, I definitely learned a lot from those people and, and lucky to get to know some of them as well. So this might be interesting. Like, I know you coach Ali Abdaal. I've gotten to know him over the past couple of years. He seems to have taken a liking to some of my writing, which is pretty cool. I get a nice boost in sales every time he plugs something.

But what I think the biggest takeaway I've had from Ali is like, he's just a normal dude and like, he just needs friends like us. He's still figuring out all these things. He just happens to have this elite set of skills which has enabled him to wildly succeed in a very specific domain. But his path is very familiar to me. And you'll probably see behind the scenes a little more too, is like he's still grappling with a lot of these questions and people sort of project success on him, but he's still very curious and trying to figure it out as he goes.

[01:18:31] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Yes. Yet, like you said, none of us know what the fuck we're doing. Like, fundamentally, none of us do. And like, the only people who tell you, who like, who tell you 100% they know what they're doing, are selling you some bullshit. Like, that's just it. Like, none of us fully know, right?

We're all trying to figure it out. Now, you develop competency in certain areas and you develop confidence through that competency, but none of us fully know what we're doing. And once you realize that about people, it allows you to see people as people instead of paragons, right? Like you said, like, Ali is super accomplished. He is very intelligent. He has a team.

He's financially, you know, successful. All by most metrics, he's highly, highly successful, but he's still a person, right? You, me, every, any, anybody, Chris Williamson, you know, we know, we both know him. Like all of these people, Tim Ferriss, Ryan Holiday, whatever, all of these people, they're just people. And that is something When losing perspective, when we lose that perspective, that's when we become intimidated by people or we say, well, there's something different about them that I don't have. And because I lack that quality, I can never succeed.

We lose that perspective of they're a regular person. Yeah, they, you know, we all have our own life circumstances for better or worse, but they're not inherently better than anybody else.

[01:20:00] Paul: What is something that's inspired you, either a book, podcast, or could be anything in the last 6 months that's really stood out?

[01:20:08] Corey Wilks Psy. D: 6 months. That's a better question because I was gonna be like 4-Hour Workweek like everybody else, right? Something that has inspired me the last 6 months. This isn't planned. You and your book, right? And like both me and my girlfriend Rachelle because, and Rachelle was like, I'll tell Paul like I love his book because I got your book, right?

You graciously gave it to me. And then I immediately was like, Rachelle, you have to pick this book up. 'Cause she's getting her doctorate in criminal justice, right? Like she was on the default path. She was very, very much going to get a doctorate and then teach in academia. And she had started to become disillusioned with it.

But then, you know, she picked up your book and, you know, she's seen me, go through all the trials and tribulations of early entrepreneurship and things. And then she read your book and it was just like, well, that's it. Like, I'm not taking this path anymore because we would, you know, we would— I would get a job somewhere, we'd have to move there and we'd live there for 40 fucking years and we'd die there, right? Like, there's no this digital nomad shit like everything else. And like, so—

[01:21:13] Paul: Wow.

[01:21:13] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Your book, your book. So like, it resolidified it for me, but it legitimately like switched her onto that new path. So That's a combined answer from both of us. So thank you for that.

[01:21:27] Paul: Wow.

[01:21:27] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Plug again for your book.

[01:21:28] Paul: I'm very humbled. That is so, so kind of you. And definitely tell her to reach out to me. I'm happy to talk to her if she wants to explore more. I always feel a little guilty when like people are like, yeah, I read your book and I'm going to not follow my life path anymore. It's like, well, maybe I need to start volunteering to help these people.

So tell her to reach out to me.

[01:21:50] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Will do.

[01:21:51] Paul: Final question is, you can go back to your 21-year-old self. I don't like giving the 21-year-old self advice because that screws with the timeline. Nobody really likes doing that, but you can plant a seed in their brain, right? A thought, a small phrase, maybe a clue they can find. What sort of seed would you plant in your 21-year-old self?

[01:22:17] Corey Wilks Psy. D: You don't need anybody's permission to help people.

[01:22:22] Paul: I love that. That is a great segue to close things out and also plug your course, Intentional Life Design, or anything else you want to plug. Highly recommend it. Like, I think you're one of the most thoughtful people in helping people navigate like the metagame of what we're doing. I can only imagine like where you're headed. Like you have this stuff and I'm so pumped to see where you go with all this stuff.

I want people to check out your stuff and definitely support you. So please tell people where they can find it.

[01:22:58] Corey Wilks Psy. D: I appreciate it, man. So easiest way to find me is CoreyWilksPsyD.com. Same thing on Twitter, Corey Wilks Psy. D. My DMs are open, so feel free to message me with any questions. My course is Intentional Life Design.

If you go to my website, you'll see a link to that and go from there. So yeah, just CoreyWilksPsy.com. I'm Corey Wilks Psy across the board online.

[01:23:19] Paul: Fantastic. Thanks for talking today, Corey. This was an incredible conversation. I appreciate your presence and work.

[01:23:27] Corey Wilks Psy. D: Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.