Luke Burgis on Mimetic Desire, The Three City Problem & Academia | The Pathless Path Podcast

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. So today I am very excited to be talking to Luke Burgis. I read his book Wanting a couple of months ago, and it sort of blew me away as Wow, somebody went through the same thing I went through, went through his own wake up, waking up experience and put it in book form. My favorite kind of books are combining the nerdy with personal memoir. And I want to talk today about why more people don't write those.

I think they're the most powerful books. We have way too many how-to books, but I just love that you wrote it. I want to dive into your journey. I want to riff on all these topics. And explore today. Luke describes himself as a different kind of entrepreneur, author, husband, teacher, and friend, and soon-to-be father.

Really excited for him. And he said he's lived his whole adult life in extreme uncertainty. Welcome to the podcast, Luke.

[02:08] Luke Burgis: Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me, man. I'm really excited.

[02:11] Paul: Fantastic. So I only have one scripted question on the podcast, which is what are the stories and scripts you grew up with around what you were supposed to be doing in adulthood?

[02:25] Luke Burgis: Oh man, I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and to a truck driver dad and an artist mom. So my mom lived most of her life, at least until I was born, and she became a substitute teacher. In extreme uncertainty. And my dad, I'm talking about my parents because our parents play a massive role, right, in these scripts. And my dad was a 101st Airborne paratrooper, served in Vietnam, and then skydived for 10 years after he got out of the war. Just went around the country and you could pay my dad $100 and he'd jump out of a plane into your backyard during a backyard party or barbecue.

And he would land on a little like beer can or target that you put up in the backyard. So like a crazy dude just going around the country jumping out of planes. And so he also had this extreme uncertainty and both of them then really settled down and started looking for stability. So my dad became a long-haul truck driver. He drove semis his whole life up until he retired. And then my mom stopped pursuing her art and became a teacher, a great teacher.

So I had a script that was like, you know, get everything out of your system. And then at a certain point, you're going to need to settle down and get serious and have a stable job. And, you know, stability was really important, provide for your family. And the two things were somehow like you couldn't do both at the same time, right? It was like, you know, it's either, you know, you put food on the table and you have a real, quote, serious job, or you're exercising your creative energies and, you know, doing these things that give you life. And it's one kind of comes first and then you kind of get that out of your system.

So that was probably one of the major scripts that I had growing up. So, you know, when I was in college, it was like, well, this is it. This is it for me. I've got 4 years and then I'm going to need to— I'm going to need to get serious and become like a real person. And, you know, I eventually learned that that script is, you know, a meme that I needed to kind of unlearn in my life. But it was probably the most most powerful one.

[04:46] Paul: Yeah. One of the funniest things I read in your book is your guidance counselor's telling you to go to Bowling Green. And when I was in high school, when I was in high school, I was like top 5 in my class. And my guidance counselor goes, you know, like, I see you put down you're applying to engineering. That's a really hard major. Maybe you should consider something easier.

And I just found that entertaining. But do you remember that moment? I think you were like, I want to go to New York. I want to go maybe take care of this adventure script from your parents.

[05:24] Luke Burgis: Totally. Yeah, that actually is— was— I wrote that on my Substack. It's not in the book. So I wrote a newsletter a couple of weeks ago because I've been thinking a lot about rites of passage and how, you know, we, we just don't have many really good rites of passage in the modern world that like help a person grow up. I would say especially men, you know, men really lack rites of passage. And I had this idea when I was in high school that I needed to kind of get out of the city where I grew up.

And for me, that represented like going to New York City. There's all kinds of reasons. My parents took me on vacation there. I fell in love with it. It was just so otherworldly to me. I watched a lot of MTV.

It probably has something to do with it. So, you know, as we all know, like moving to another city, like, doesn't really solve your problems usually. But at that point in my life, it was really important for me to get there. So here I am, like, jazzed up. I've got all these dreams. And I should say, like, I was not that good of a student in high school.

I was bored out of my mind. My grades were like— I wasn't failing, but they weren't very good. And I walked into this guidance counselor's office and this— the only suggestion he had for me was that I should apply to Grand Valley State University or Bowling Green because that's where he went. He said, you know, I had a pretty good education there and I have nothing against that place. But it was just that, like, it felt tremendously depersonalizing for me. And I feel like this is probably a common problem for like most students that are in high school is like, what do you have, like 15 minutes with this guidance counselor every year or something like that?

I mean, I had 15 minutes with him like my whole time in high school. And here he is, he didn't really get to know me at all. And he's making this recommendation where I, you know, for a minute I took it really seriously because you're, you know, you're vulnerable, you're susceptible, you want to give adults the benefit of the doubt. But that was around the time I walked out of his office and I was like, you know, something's— my bullshit detector was going off and something didn't sit right with me. And I like went home, I paced around my room all night. And I was like, you know what, screw that guy.

It was like I had that really— this like really important moment. And I was like, he doesn't even know me. And yeah, that was like the first time that I kind of just like really decided what I stood for and that I had to do some things alone. Like, you know, we have to do some things alone in life in order to grow. That's just part of it. We've got to like just go out to the frontier and sometimes nobody's going to come with us.

And it was that moment. My parents were kind of, you know, encouraging me not to go to New York. They're like, you know, if you go to a state school, you go to a local school, we'll take care of it for you. We'll pay for it. You got to want to go to New York City. You're going to have to take care of it yourself.

And I just had that moment where I was like, you know what, I'm going to go. I'll pay the consequences. I don't really care about the student debt. This is something that I need to do. And I didn't let that moment in that guidance counselor's office throw me off track. And in fact, I kind of used it as, you know, it probably put a chip on my shoulder.

And I remembered it when later in life I would have conversations with people like the managing director at the investment bank that I worked at when I told him I was gonna quit. It was like, if you quit, you know, you're never gonna be able to work on Wall Street again. And it took me right back to that guidance counselor's office when he said that to me.

[08:55] Paul: Yeah, that— I faced that many times. I quit several jobs. I just kept moving job to job. And at every step along the way, people said, this is a bad decision. If you stay another year, you'll get promoted. You're on a good trajectory.

And I've kind of taken this as good a good omen now. If people say I'm doing the wrong thing, it's probably a good sign now. And it's, I wonder if it sort of ties to what we experienced, which is we're coming out of the second half of the 20th century where we're given like top-down system advice. This is what you should do to please the system. And it's basically just paying attention to mimetic desire, right? It's like, well, this is what other people think we should do.

We should do this. Do you think that sort of maps?

[09:47] Luke Burgis: Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's the safe route, you know, it's why CEOs hire McKinsey, right? Because if things go wrong, they can say that they hired McKinsey. I mean, there's like a certain amount of insurance that comes with, with the safe route. And, you know, nobody— I look—

[10:01] Paul: so I—

[10:02] Luke Burgis: one of the many hats that I wear in life right now is I'm a, I'm a professor at a university, entrepreneur in residence and professor. So I have students that I mentor. So I tried to— and now I'm on the other side of the desk and in the other chair. So I'm the one now, you know, giving them guidance or trying to help them think through things. And sometimes, like, when they come to me like, hey, I have these two jobs, or I'm thinking about starting my own company when I graduate versus taking this job, it's a bunch of money and security. Part of me still is like, well, man, if I tell them that, you know, they're young and this is the time to take the risks and you should do that, and then it blows up in their face, like, am I going to get a phone call from their parents or something like that?

So like, there's always this kind of like risk assurance kind of thing that I'm doing in my mind. I catch myself doing it sometimes and I realize like, well, first of all, I never tell them what to do. I should be clear. I usually just ask them questions and try to help them figure it out. But I think it has a lot to do with like us, you know, not wanting to be blamed for bad consequences.

[11:11] Paul: That's why I put it in book form. People email me every week now telling me they quit their job and I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, what have I done?

[11:20] Luke Burgis: What have I done?

[11:20] Paul: But do you, do you see yourself in those students? It seems like in New York is when you similar to me in college, got sort of infected with the prestige bug.

[11:39] Luke Burgis: Yeah, I didn't have the prestige bug in high school, really. I had the cool—

[11:43] Paul: I didn't even—

[11:44] Luke Burgis: New York was cool. Yeah, it's funny how that happens, you know? Like, I wish I could pinpoint a moment. Can you remember a moment or like a certain specific thing that happened when the prestige bug got you?

[11:55] Paul: I got into the honors program at UConn. I went to a state school in Connecticut, and all these kids were high SAT kids who grew up in much more, much more serious schools than I went to growing up. And they knew about all these things. And I think for me, it was just, I was always good at school, so it was just sort of the obvious game. Around me, right? And I think mostly it was junior year to senior year when companies started recruiting.

Everyone knows what everyone knows about the best companies are at the school. So I was like, well, I'm a good student. I might as well just try to be the best employee, hit the highest ranking on those.

[12:44] Luke Burgis: Yeah.

[12:45] Paul: Yeah.

[12:46] Luke Burgis: Similar for me. I had the— I wanted to be cool, I think is why I went to New York. But it wasn't prestige. It was just kind of like being like Brooklyn is cool, you know, being in New York is cool. They dress cool, they talk cool. And I kind of wanted to be a part of that.

And the prestige bug got me right after I got— shortly after I got there, I went to Pace University, a little school in downtown Manhattan, not far from Wall Street. And I got infected with the money kind of the money bug, right? It's like working on Wall Street is the quickest way to make a million bucks and then be able to go do whatever you want to do. And as you know, that's a really dangerous game to play because, like, you know, even if it works out for you, you could still, you know, more likely you're going to lose the long-term game. And it turned out that if I turned it on, if I— when I actually cared and I was motivated And I flipped a switch. Turns out I can do really good in school, which probably caused me problems because all of a sudden I like flipped this switch.

I started to apply myself to it and I had a 4.0. And then people started patting me on the head and telling me that I was smart. And I went out and like bought like a nice pair of Ferragamos. I had no business. I looked totally ridiculous wearing them, like monk strap Ferragamo shoes. Then I got into this and I was like, "Okay, I can play this game and I'm winning this game." Then I transferred into NYU and that in itself I did purely for prestige.

I didn't really pay to go to Pace and I didn't get any financial aid to go to NYU. I did it purely for the prestige. So racked up a bunch of debt, got recruited by all the investment banks and it just felt really good. It just felt like I was on a path and there was a certain amount of security in that. My parents were really happy. My friends were all doing the same exact thing.

And from the outside, everybody wants to get— it's the old Peter Thiel quote about law firms or law school, right? From the outside, everybody wants to get in, but from the inside, everybody just wants to get out. And I realized that pretty much my first week as a summer analyst investment banker, which man is just a miserable experience.

[15:09] Paul: Yeah, it's such a hard thing to avoid too, because even if your parents say, I want you to be happy, the reaction as soon as you land a high-paying job is so extreme that you're like, oh, oh, okay. And you start paying attention to what other people are saying in a different way. And I don't even think it was the prestige for me. I think one thing I've pointed out is that For me, I think it was a sort of immature male, like a male immaturity, right? And wanting to feel special. And I think this was the problem for me.

And you said too, I think you wrote, but found myself relatively empty by my late 20s. For me, the other side of that insecurity is that it never actually fills the hole of that insecurity. It only sort of adds a golden layer around, around your outside that people pay attention to and give you a free pass.

[16:12] Luke Burgis: Right. And, you know, the— it's not like you're ever free from some of the temptations and pressures of conformity and going down a path that is probably not going to make you happy. Like, it's not like you can free yourself once and for all. Like, it's kind of always they're tugging at us, right? Like when I quit my job and left to sort of become, to start my company with my cousin, I just fell into the same kind of anxiety, but just in a different form, in the startup world form. And I did that my whole, I started 4 companies in my 20s and it wasn't until my late 20s that I was still feeling really restless.

And here I am, I mean, 12 years later now. And I feel like I'm going through the same process with my book publishing. Like, you and I could probably spend the whole hour just talking about book publishing, right? Like, the different paths and options that are presented to you when it comes to a book. And it's like, here's the safe route, you know, do like, this is the book that you should write. These are the things that you should say.

It's how to not upset people. And feeling all of those things all over again, I just have pattern recognition now that I didn't have before. But it's amazing to me how incredibly alluring some of this stuff is even now, like even after the recognition and the awareness.

[17:36] Paul: Yeah, you, you have this amazing quote from Girard: "The effort to leave the beaten path forces everyone into the same ditch." And this is something I noticed, I think, when I left my former path, I was just— wanted nothing to do with creating a job for myself, anything that even reeked of a job. But I saw a lot of people around me basically create jobs for themselves. It's like I would notice, oh, you've left, but now you're still working Monday through Friday, 9 to 6. It's like, oh, there's a manager in your head now. And, uh, I think these things are really hard to turn down. I see some of the most creative people, as soon as a traditional publisher puts an offer in front of them, they basically can't say no.

And there are good reasons, but a lot of that has to do with it's what other people want, right?

[18:30] Luke Burgis: And I guess there's— there is some merit to, um, going down a more traditional path, uh, for a time to learn. And, you know, and then sometimes there's a time for everything. Like, I published with a traditional publisher my first book, and I learned a ton. Now I'm literally in the throes of trying to figure out what I'm going to do next. And, you know, that was a valuable experience for me, and there were a lot of positives to it. So, you know, these things are really, really complex.

There's just so many different factors to weigh. And, you know, the biggest lesson I learned was like, like the money. I know it sounds cliché, but like knowing what I know now, the kinds of questions I would have asked would have been completely different, right? They would have had to do with things like, you know, art control and design and like the way that things are framed and positioned and marketing, things that have nothing to do with the advance or the royalties or anything like that. So much of life is just honestly knowing the right questions to ask, right? It just seems like I never even knew the right questions to ask even a few years ago during that process.

And, you know, to the extent that I'm a mentor for my students, for instance, it's just trying to help them understand the right questions sometimes.

[19:55] Paul: When I read your book, I was surprised because Many traditionally published books sort of follow a formula, and in yours, I just found it so densely packed with ideas and also your personal story and these broader frameworks. And you just don't find that in a lot of traditional, traditionally published books. But then I remember I messaged you and you were like, yeah, I had to fight a lot to inject all this into my book. Is that—

[20:26] Luke Burgis: That's right.

[20:27] Paul: Yeah.

[20:28] Luke Burgis: No, that was—

[20:28] Paul: Yeah, go ahead.

[20:31] Luke Burgis: For sure. I mean, it wasn't— it wasn't easy to do that. You know, I did have to really fight a bit and stand up for myself and put my voice out there. And I'm very grateful. I have like an amazing editor at a traditional publishing house, St. Martin's, who really put up with me, frankly, and like listened to all of my crazy ideas, right?

I went out and got— I found an artist in The New Yorker that I really liked. And I had this crazy idea that I was gonna ask her to do the COVID art. And it's really rare for that to happen. I mean, usually the publisher handles the whole thing and as a courtesy they might like run the design by the author at the end, you know, kind of like just to like to rubber stamp it, right? They're really like hoping that you don't have like some new idea for it. So like all along the way, that's kind of the way that it was.

And even in the style of the book itself, there is a style, right? There does seem to be this really formulaic style, especially for nonfiction books, right? It's like you cite this study and then you say what the insight and lesson to be learned from the study is. And it's like, I didn't want to write that book. I would have been miserable writing that kind of book, right? I just would have felt like I was— I would be doing way too much research.

I wouldn't just be able to write and put it in my voice. And there's also a lot of pressure. Like, it's really like dangerous sometimes to ask readers like what they're looking for. Because like you'll hear, I don't like books that have a lot of memoir or personal story. I just want the insights. I just want the tips.

I just want the lessons learned. I don't want to hear about the story. You like this stuff. You like the books that have the interwoven story. And so do I. So some, like the voices that tend to be the loudest for us, like tend to be sometimes the ones that we probably shouldn't listen to.

Right. And I just had to, at a certain point, I had to just bracket the feedback and the suggestions and this is the kind of book that you should write and just close the door in the cabin for a while. I wasn't in a literal cabin. I wish I was. And just like write what felt natural, what came natural for me. My model, I still had a model for it.

I mean, probably the single biggest influence on the style of the book was Taleb. Just because it seemed like he wrote this super strange book that had like these like analogies to like mafiosos and these little stories interspersed with like interesting facts and graphs. And I was like, he clearly just put that together and had an editor that wasn't going to mess with him too much. And I was like, you know, I'm just going to like try to draw a little bit of inspiration from that and do something that's a little bit weird and out there. And if I, you know, if I'm allowed to do that, then I'm going to do it because that's what feels right.

[23:24] Paul: Yeah. So you mentioned this idea of models and it's sort of tied to mimetic desire. Mimetic desire is one of the core ideas you explore in the book. And I guess the simplest way to put it is we want what other people want, right? And the great romantic lie is thinking that our desires are genuinely ours. When was the first time you woke up to this own lie yourself?

[23:52] Luke Burgis: Hmm. Mimetic desire is wanting what other people want because they want it, right? So not by coincidence, we're converging on the things because they're, they're affecting and influencing us at the level of desire without us knowing it. So desire is contagious and You know, the first time that I woke up to it, I mean, I had inklings that this was going on right after college when I took that first job and, you know, looked around and saw that most of the men in the office were all wearing one of the same 5 watches, and they happened to be the same 5 watches that are in most of the magazines at the airports in Hong Kong. I was based in Hong Kong at that time. And if you've never been to Asia, you know this, Paul, but like the airports are different in Asia.

They're like filled with like so many high-end, like luxury shops, right? And I bought Cartier watch and I had no business buying my first year. And that was one of the 5. And I bought it. And within like, like hours of getting home, I was like, it just like dawned on me that like, I feel like I'm like becoming this like kind of person. Like, I thought never crossed my mind when I was in New York.

And I've been in Hong Kong for 3 months now, kind of absorbing this culture. And the mimesis is just different over there. The kind of things that are important, the totems of status and prestige are just a little bit different than they are in New York. And it was like shocking to me how quickly I adapted, like how malleable I was to just shifting to those kind of memetic objects that I was going after. So that was a wake-up call for me. And it took me a very long time because I left and then, you know, I went, I moved, I moved from Hong Kong straight to LA and immersed myself in the startup world.

And then I just adopted some different ones. But that was when I noticed for the first time that there was something going on. Even though I didn't learn the phrase mimetic desire until like 8 years later, um, I knew— we all kind of sort of just have a sense of it, right? Even if we've never heard this term in our life.

[26:18] Paul: The danger there too is you can convince yourself, oh, I'm becoming like them with these 5 watches, and then you can just go deeper and try to make yourself even more special by getting an unknown watch that nobody else has heard of that's even more expensive. Uh, did you fall into that trap at all?

[26:38] Luke Burgis: Yeah, you know, that definitely, right? That's the Girard quote, right? Everybody leaves the beaten path only to fall into the same ditch. And it's why all hipsters look alike, right? That's the joke. Yeah, I did.

And it's the— there's this all kinds of like weird, you know, negative status signaling thing that entrepreneurs do where it's like the more successful you are, like the simpler you dress and the simpler your car should be. You know, I tell the story in the book about Tony Hsieh who drove like this beat-up Mazda 6. And I actually had a pretty nice car at the time, even though, like, he'd exited for hundreds of millions of dollars and I was still kind of bootstrapping. Like, it didn't make any sense. So, you know, and I, you know, I tell the joke in the book, like, I started thinking, like, maybe I should drive, like, a, like, maybe not so nice of a car. And but it was just another— it's just a different form of it, right?

So, yeah, all these things, like, it seems like if you have to think too hard about it, something's probably a little off. But at the same time, like, you can overthink these things. It's kind of the danger of the whole idea of being anti-mimetic, right? And it's ironic because I write a newsletter named Anti-Mimetic, but that the idea is certainly not to just do like put a minus sign in front of like whatever the crowd is doing. That is not it at all. It's the idea is to simply gain some, some freedom some like emotional, spiritual, mental freedom to just kind of unplug and be for a while, just to, just to come into contact with who we are.

And when we do that— and I did that through taking a very long sabbatical, which ended up lasting years, by the way— when we do that, we come into contact with these dynamics, these relationship dynamics, the status dynamics just with different eyes and different heart and different ears. And, you know, we just kind of— and more emotional intelligence and awareness of what's going on inside of us. But it's— I think if we over-intellectualize it a bit, you can end up just doing like really funny, stupid things trying to counter-signal. You just end up looking even more ridiculous, right?

[28:53] Paul: Yeah. Was it— was that going to Italy after L.A.?

[28:58] Luke Burgis: It was, it was going to Italy, but even way before I even went to Italy, you know, I stepped away for a sabbatical really just to dive into kind of reeducate myself, right? I gave myself like a homeschool classical education for 6 months, which turned— made me realize that I loved philosophy. I love the classics. I caught myself, I enrolled in this distance learning program at a university and I enrolled in a class called Philosophy of the Human Person. To this day, best class I've ever had in my life. Where was that offered?

That is offered at a lot of places, but I was at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. Right. Distance learning class at Franciscan. They would literally mail me a— this is 2007-ish. They mailed me a 3-ring binder, 3-ring binder with CDs of lectures and recorded in class, like super bad audio, really bad. And, you know, you just make your way through the binder, you listen to the CDs, and then when you're done, you go take a proctored exam with some, some alumnus of the university that lives in Vegas.

I was in Vegas at the time, and I did. And the crazy thing was I was still mostly running my company, so working 10 to 12 hours a day. And then I would go to a coffee shop. I would get to this coffee shop at like 9 or 10, and I would open up that 3-ring binder and I would immerse myself. And it was the best part of my day. I would get like a tea.

I would sit there. It was 24-hour Starbucks because in Vegas we have 24-hour everything. And I would sit there until 1, 2 o'clock in the morning. And I didn't want to leave. And I was like, you know, Luke, something's going on here. Like, why is this engaging you so much?

And you're miserable going into the office of the company that you built from the ground up. There's something seriously off about that. And part of it was like the voice in my own head had become a dictator to me, like a tyrannical dictator telling me like, I need to be doing these things. I need to hustle harder. I need to be in the office by 7. I need to be the last one to leave and X, Y, and Z.

And that was another wake-up call moment for me when I just paid attention to when I was like fully alive, fully engaged, in the strangest way possible. I never would have guessed that that was what was going to do it for me and that was going to teach me something about myself. And that has to do with the kind of intellectual curiosity that I have that I wasn't satiating in any way. You know, I was just kind of doing like the utilitarian things that would help my business move forward. And that's important, but that's not all there is to it in life. And there was just a lot of kind of big questions, right?

Like, questions of classical philosophy. Why is there something rather than nothing? All those questions that I was engrossed in. And I just, I did that for a good 6 months. Every single day I went to that coffee shop.

[31:53] Paul: I love that. I like the idea of just curiosity and trusting that in a very radical way. Like, it's very easy for you to sit in that coffee shop and think, well, this is interesting, but it's not going to make me money. Right? Or it's not a reasonable thing an adult should be doing. But it seems like you came to the opposite conclusion, which was perhaps I should follow this really good feeling and, uh, see if I can sustain that.

[32:24] Luke Burgis: Yeah, yes. And there was a sense of peace that I had, you know. It's odd that I think throughout different times of our lives when we have this still peace about us, even when we're doing something that doesn't seem like it should bring us peace, that's a really good sign that maybe, you know, you're doing something right. Right. Because on the surface, like you said, there was no clear path to money. If anything, it was just making me sleep deprived, staying there so late.

It was like taking away like valuable time that I had to work on my company. So it didn't, quote, make sense on paper in any way. But I felt this tremendous sense of peace about it. And that's what just encouraged me to keep doing it. And I just— the piece was like, Luke, you don't know where this is going to lead. You don't have to know where this is going to lead, but it's going to lead somewhere and you're going to want to follow it.

Right. So I just kept doing that. And there's something tremendously nice about not needing to know where something's going to lead, but just knowing that it's going to lead somewhere eventually good. The irony is it actually has made me quite a bit of money because now I'm able to talk about these. I'm now able to integrate all of these things. But it was like way back then, Not that that was ever the goal, but like way back then, I didn't see how that was ever going to be part of my life in any way at all.

[33:42] Paul: Yeah, I get a lot of people that will say things to me like, don't you think it's risky to follow a path like yours? And I think there are two, two points. I think a lot of people do end up making money when they channel their curiosity, and that— I don't know if that was possible as much 30, 40 years ago, but it's more possible now, but also they're sort of mispricing the human spirit, right? It's not risky at all if you have very good understanding that you are going to short circuit everything that makes us human—your curiosity, your energy for life, your sense of aliveness. Were you pricing that in at that point as well?

[34:25] Luke Burgis: Man, I love that phrase, mispricing the human spirit. Yeah, I, I was Well, I was betting on my spirit, you know, so yeah, I was, I was investing in the spirit and I knew that I had this voracious appetite for something and I was getting fed in those moments of reading and study more than I was in my job. So definitely mispricing it, but I knew that it was important. I knew that it was something that I needed to invest in. 'Cause the spirit needs to be fed, just like our minds need to be fed. And they're two different things.

Some things can feed both. But, you know, play. Play is something that feeds the spirit. And humans need play. You know, we just don't get enough of it usually. One of my business partners, David Jack, who I founded a company with, he was— we founded the company together.

He was in his mid-40s. I was quite a bit younger. I was, I was in my early 30s. And this man, like, played more than any other human I know. I mean, he would just play. Would, like, would just be walking down the street together and he'd find some game to play.

Or like, we one time I went over his house and we made a game out of the leaves in his yard. We were raking leaves with his daughters. We designed this elaborate game. We're running around. I was exhausted at the end of it. We just had a ton of fun together.

And he's sort of helped me look for opportunities to play. And, you know, play is one of those things that feeds my spirit. So I try to do that whenever I can. So, you know, it's— we just live in a highly intellectualized environment. I think social media has contributed to that. And I think there is a slight distinction between the things that engage my intellect and the things that kind of engage like the, the whole person that make me— like when I run or when I, when I'm in a state of play.

And sometimes they're just very different.

[36:27] Paul: Yeah, it— I love this idea of also thick desires versus thin desires. Um, I wanted to actually read this part. Um, thick desires are like diamonds that have been formed deep beneath the surface, near to the core of the earth. Thick desires are protected from the volatility of changing circumstances in our life. Thin desires, on the other hand, are highly mimetic, contagious, and often shallow. And I love the other thing you say in the book, which is that there's a market price for thin desires.

It's a very efficient market, right? These could be fancy jobs, legible paths, things like that. But yeah, it goes back to the same thing. They're mispricing all these negative externalities for your own life, whereas leaning into those thick desires, you can sort of sustain them over long-term, and then you start having extra energy for the play, for the deeper engagement in your life. Has that been a gradual process as, as you leaned into that over the years? Like, how, how have you— like, if you reflect back, how many years ago was it you started taking that philosophy course?

[37:40] Luke Burgis: Uh, that was about almost 14 years ago now. Yeah.

[37:43] Paul: What, what does the timeline look like over those 14 years? Do you see like your energy like dramatically changing from that point in how you think about your life?

[37:54] Luke Burgis: I think it started around that time that I started, um, reading and studying that philosophy in that coffee shop. Um, that was an unearthing of those thick desires. It was an excavation process for me. Obviously it didn't happen all at once. I mean, it was a process that took years I ended up stepping away completely from my company. So when I was doing that whole night thing, I was still running my company.

I ended up turning over control, doing a lot of things, and that allowed me to completely step away. I was fortunate to be able to do that, to travel for a bit, to immerse myself and continue that journey of reeducation, really. And it was very gradual. I ended up on a very kind of spiritual path, and that's the one that led me to Italy of discernment. At one point, I considered a very radical life choice to form a religious life, and that's what brought me to Italy. And that was a complete sort of self-emptying.

I had to go through some— I had to blow up my life in order to make that move to Italy happen, right? Broke up with a long-term girlfriend. Had to do a lot of things. I mean, in hindsight, it was the best decision I ever made. I don't recommend, you know, everybody blow up their life to that extent, but I had to do that. I felt at that moment, I felt like great peace in making those decisions.

And then, you know, that was years. And, you know, even it's— but it's not like a linear process. You know, so much of life is presented as this linear track. Where, you know, my desire is just getting thicker and thicker and thicker, and the thin ones are falling away, and I'm just this guy who lives with thick desires. Not at all the case, right? Um, it's, um, you know, it's like we always have, you know, two wolves inside of us, right?

And there's been times in my life, even very recently, where I felt, you know, thin desires taking over. But there's always these things that bring us back and remind us, you know, the memory is really important for people. Memory is important in human life. One of my big worries— I won't, I won't, I promise I won't go on a riff on this, but I think we're losing our memories. I think technology has a lot to do with that. So like remembering those times in our life, like for me, it would have been my guidance counselor.

It would have been the way that I sort of felt like that tug at my chest when my managing director told me I'd never work on Wall Street. It'd be the peace that I felt in that coffee shop. Like, it's crazy how many people forget the good things in their life, the good things. Right? We remember the trauma and the bad things, but sometimes we forget the times when our thick desires were activated, when we felt that peace. So the act of remembering has been really important.

And there have been things in my life that have made me forget. But then there are moments that bring us back where— I don't know if you've had this happen to you, but like something will happen. Sometimes it's a tragedy, somebody that needs us. Something happens where it's like nothing else matters and you know exactly what you have to do, right? Like the thin desires just almost instantaneously fall away. So for me, my parents both got sick over the last couple of years.

And, you know, when I'm a caregiver and I'm taking care of my dad, it's like it's the only thing in the world. It's just me and it's him, right? And there's tremendous joy. There's tremendous peace in that. I'm very happy when I'm with him. And it's sort of like, look at all the stupid little things that I was concerned about before that.

And they just seem silly. So these kind of concrete, like, family, friends, people in need— we all have people in our lives and they're probably very close to us. For me, I have this very, like, incarnational idea of how to mine the thick desires, right? Like, very, very concrete things around all of us— could be your children— are kind of calling at us and offer clues to us on where we can find the kind of thick, the thick desires. I mean, some of these are just part of what it means to be human, right? Like, we all, we all have this, this deep desire to give of ourselves, right?

To pour ourselves out in a loving relationship. Sometimes we need to actually be reminded of that.

[42:14] Paul: Yeah, I love that. I, I met my wife in a similar moment of your piece at the coffee shop. In my first couple of months in Taiwan, I had no income, no plan, nothing, but sort of my first experience with sitting with myself and liking it and following my curiosity. And I think I'm lucky in that I met my wife in that period. So that's sort of our founding myth of our relationship as well, because she was on a similar journey. And, uh, I had a publisher reach out in the first couple, first month of my child being born, and it triggered the hell out of me.

It basically hijacked my body because I became terrified of my former self that was somebody that would've instantly said yes to such a thing. And my wife was the one that pointed out to me you're totally off after that call. And as soon as she told me that, it was very easy to walk away from that and continue on what we were building. But also cheat code, which I know is coming up for you, is having a little cute baby which is yours. It's, it's sort of the greatest reminder in the world of what really matters. And it's actually made it so much easier to know what the right thing is to do with that kid because you can just look at things through a kid's eye and it's all about joy and playful playing and things like that.

How, how are you thinking about the upcoming arrival of your, your son or daughter?

[44:05] Luke Burgis: Well, I'm already preparing myself during that first month for some kind of like amazing opportunities to come my way or something like that. I'm already— well, you're already ready for it.

[44:16] Paul: Right after the birth.

[44:18] Luke Burgis: Yeah, well, that's a crazy story. Actually, let me— I got to tell this story because this is really funny, right? You can't make this up, right? Um, we make plans and God laughs. I, I planned this big conference on René Girard at my university in DC for October 13th, and I planned it late last year, a long time ago, right? Getting way out ahead of things.

And then a couple of months later, we found out that Claire's pregnant. And the doctor's like, your due date is October 16th. And that's not good. That falls right in the window. Like, chances are the 13th might be the day that this baby's born. And obviously I'm not going to not be there for the birth of my first kid.

So, Paul, I am so stubborn that I, for like a few months, I refused to move the date. And I was like, you know, because I had signed a $30,000 contract with a hotel and like I'd put a lot of work. It was a real pain in the ass to move. So I was so stubborn. I was like, you know, like, what are the odds that, that, you know, our daughter will be born on that day? They're very low.

You know, I'm just going to keep the day. And then I had some friends that talked some sense into me like, look, you're not going to even want to have to worry about the possibility of that. So I moved it. So I'm going to have to be very sleep deprived when I pop my head above water for November 3rd for to actually host that. So I'm, you know, I'm getting ready knowing that those kind of those things are going to come right. It's a little bit easier to deal with when you're at least prepared for it and they're not unexpected.

And throughout my whole life, it's always worked like that. Like, the damnedest things come my way at the craziest times. And I kind of do believe, like, the circumstances really matter and help us find meaning in things. But I'm going to do— my wife is very good. She's going to— she's very good like you. I mean, there's just no substitute for having somebody in your life who can, you know, speak truth to you and who sometimes knows you better than you know yourself.

Who can remind you of those things. Very, very hard to find. I have to say, one question I had for you, because I was in— I met my wife in a similar situation. What brought you to Taiwan in the first place? What were you doing there?

[46:20] Paul: I don't really have a good answer for that. I traveled throughout Asia for a month and something I felt in the one week I spent in Taipei said I had to return. And that was it. I was really trying to strip my life down. I think I was going through a similar process of what you were doing, which was just letting go of everything and just clearing the slate. And I think it was likely just everything's in Chinese characters.

I can't read. I don't know what's going on. It was so different. From a place I grew up in the suburbs, and I just went and it changed everything. And that was also when I started to fall in love with writing. I noticed I was literally doing nothing, but I noticed I kept being excited to pull up my laptop and write in the mornings.

And I declared then that my only goal would be to write most days. And that's the only goal I've really had for the last 6 years. And it, it's sort of working. Um, so yeah, it, it was, uh, it's one of these things you can't explain it. And at some point you have to release the tiller and just start listening to what the world's telling you.

[47:48] Luke Burgis: Yeah, that's, that's really well said. You know, the, sometimes the most important things happen when we you know, when we least expect it and when we're not trying to control everything, we're just kind of open. You know, I, I've definitely liked to be in control, but I'm more comfortable being less in control in my life now than I used to be. And I've just noticed this very strange thing that when I just kind of let go a little bit, The things— there's amazing people and things come into my life when I'm just open. Kind of like the way the creative process works, right? Like when you're really, really busy, I mean, it's impossible to be creative.

I mean, I don't know, maybe you know somebody that can be super creative while they're busy. No, I can't. I can't be. No, I can't at all. Right. So like, I just need to be— I need to go on long walks and runs and just like travel and just sort of observe and think and allow these collisions to happen in my life.

And that really only works when you sort of let go of the reins a little bit and expect the unexpected. Like, you know, I was in Rome studying. I was actually, I was on a pathway to eventually become a priest and I sort of like let go of that idea. I even wanted to control that. I wanted to control the process. And I sort of finally let go of that and completely opened up myself to any possibility.

And, you know, walked into an Irish pub in the middle of Rome on Thanksgiving Day to watch the Detroit Lions football game. And it's the only place in Rome that was showing it. And I sat down next to the girl who would eventually become my wife and like, just like allowing absolutely anything to happen. And and she was there just touring Europe, working on farms, trying to learn about food. And, you know, here we are many years later and we're making a beautiful life together. And, uh, you know, neither one of us— if we would have— we're very different too, and we even let control of expectations and the boxes we would have checked— we never would have picked each other on Match.com or anything like that.

Not even— I know she wouldn't have picked me. Not even close. You know, I didn't check any of those boxes. But, you know, there was a— there was just kind of a peace there too, right? The same, very similar sense of peace that I felt in that coffee shop. I felt that day and in the weeks that followed.

And it's always been a sign for me that, you know, Luke, you don't know where this train is going. You don't really know where this is going to lead. But it's good. It's beautiful. There's truth in it. There's love and the love is real and that's going to lead you somewhere really cool.

[50:37] Paul: Do you struggle to get into that state in the US? I think one thing I've struggled with— I mean, I wrote most of my book in Taiwan and I think the energy for me there allows myself to wander mentally and physically a little more. The lower cost of living helps too. But yeah, have you Do you struggle with the energy and pace of American culture and just how we live?

[51:03] Luke Burgis: 100%. Yep. And I, I wrote at least half of my book outside of the U.S., too. I was in a sleepy little town on the Mediterranean and just very, very— channeling Taleb.

[51:20] Paul: Yeah, yeah.

[51:20] Luke Burgis: Return to the Med. Yeah, I literally— I mean, I basically threw a dart at a map. It's how I found that place. And it helped. So yeah, I find it really tough. So I think like I'm trying to— and I'm learning, right?

Because I'm starting to work on another one right now and it's harder than the first one. And I don't think it's the material. I think it's actually environment. I mean, environment, I think, affects people in different ways. I know some people who, like, environment doesn't affect them very much. They just— they seem to be able to just like dial in and do their thing no matter where they're at.

I'm the kind of person where environment affects me a lot, a lot. So finding that, that's going to set me up and sort of unlock some of that creative potential is, is key. And man, when I was— I spent a lot of, a lot of time outside of the US, been lucky. Asia, Europe, both. And there is some, something sort of distinctive about expectations of like work, right? We just, we just have a different relationship with work.

I won't get into Japan, but like we just have, there's something different about our attitude to work here in the US that I haven't seen anywhere else.

[52:42] Paul: Yeah, in Taiwan it's an extreme work culture, meaning you don't get many vacation days, you are working a lot. But I do find the, the weight of the work is a lot lighter there in an interesting way. Like it isn't the center. And I think that's a lot to do with family cultures in Asia. And every system has its different relationship with work. But I think also just if you can get outside of your own default work culture, it can lead to some interesting ability to kind of disconnect from that.

And that's what— that's definitely what I experienced for the first time being in Taiwan too, is like, I don't even know what people think I should be doing, right?

[53:28] Luke Burgis: Yeah, I think it's easy to internalize scripts about work, um, and then take them into our personal lives or our lives as entrepreneurs. Even if you're an independent creator, it can be easy to take scripts about what work is into that. I mean, I know I have. So it's the kind of this idea, I mean, the real danger of, you know, working for yourself is that there is no, you know, if you don't have an off switch, you can just convince yourself that if you're not working, then you're being lazy. I mean, you could have worked 80 hours that week. It's 11 PM.

It's like, well, if I'm, you know, I can always work more. You can always work more, right? But that's a false dichotomy, right? Which is not healthy in any way. And a lot of, especially a lot of young entrepreneurs really have a hard time setting any kind of healthy boundaries whatsoever.

[54:23] Paul: Yeah, I love what you wrote about looking for reference points outside the system. You said, make visible what is invisible, mark the boundaries of your current world of wanting, and you'll gain the ability, at least possibility, to transcend it. It does seem, and I wonder if this is tied to what you were saying at the beginning about rites of passage, we sort of lack any sort of cultural wisdom about how to transcend our bubbles. And I think it's become a lot more challenging with like the just information flood we're experiencing of technology and just constant exposure to everything around us. How, how have you seen sort of effective ways to transcend our current experience, find those points outside the system?

[55:18] Luke Burgis: Part of it is, part of it's physical. And what do I mean by that? I mean that if we're very online and we try to solve this problem in a digital sense only, it's extremely difficult, maybe even impossible to solve. Because everything is too abstract and it's too easy to stay in the bubbles and the algorithm is working against us. So there's really no substitute for, you know, living in a city, for instance, that's really diverse and where you can go like go to a bar and there's like an equally good chance that you're sitting next to a Republican or Democrat and there's like people are just having like all different varieties of conversations. Those places are really important, right?

These third places in our world, they're not home, they're not work. I think there's really no substitute for them. I really don't. And I think that we're going to have to end up finding them in the real world. So I mean, I literally make a point to go to places that I feel are like that in the various places that I'm at. Arthur Brooks once told me, he said, you know, Luke, go to show up to places, to unexpected places and places where you're not invited and say unexpected things.

Because I asked him like, what's been like a piece of advice that's been useful to you? Because if you only sort of go where you're invited or you sort of like, stay within the system that feels comfortable, those opportunities for like interesting kind of collisions that lead to growth are just never going to happen. So, you know, being intentional about entering into relationships with people, um, online and offline, but especially offline, and that can come in the form of, you know, dinners at my house, barbecuing, going places, holding events, things like that. Have been one way to stay grounded and to remember what's real. And I, I love technology, but I think that it ultimately has to lead us back to and serve the real, like what's, what's actually real. And to the extent that it's doing that, I'm all for it.

But we can't, we can't expect it to do that. Like, we have to take an active role in making that in making that happen.

[57:47] Paul: Yeah, that's, that's sort of something you point out, which is, uh, missing from a lot of the tech narratives. And you frame this— I, I love your idea of the three-city problem. It's such a good, uh, remix of the three-body problem, which is that, uh, we have Rome— or no, Athens, which is, um, sort of the church of reason. We have Jerusalem, which is faith, and then, um, Silicon Valley, the three cities, and Silicon Valley is technology, right? And technology has kind of come in. And I think you've pointed this out to me, or at least made me aware of it.

You sort of see like reason and religion have coexisted for thousands of years and they've sort of figured out how to live with each other, especially in the US. I think the US is probably a good example. But then technology sometimes tries to be all of those things at once, right? Where we abdicate technology, ourselves to technology. And you can see it in tech leaders. They try to like, crypto is our god, blockchain is our god, AI is our god.

It's like, no, you need to, we need to figure out how these all connect. And I sense making your version of the idea in a right way and like, what would you add there?

[59:12] Luke Burgis: Yeah, you definitely are. So I think of Athens as, you know, the city of, of reason. Jerusalem is not just faith. Let's just say spirituality, right? Or an openness to things that can't be explained by reason alone. Like wonder would really exist in Jerusalem.

And Silicon Valley, as you said, is technology, but it's also utility. Doing things that are just useful. And I've spent a lot of time in all three, and I've been siloed in various ways in all three where there's not a lot of contact with the others. So I know a lot of people in Silicon Valley that have no contact with any form of spiritual life or spiritual people whatsoever, right? Everything is what's practical, what's going to make money, what's useful, and how can we make progress with the tech. I know people in Jerusalem, I know people inside of my own church that just really don't have any interest in innovation and just don't have any contact with innovation.

That's a problem because innovation is a good thing, is a positive thing. And then there are people in Athens, right, like inside of universities and academia who just really don't have any contact with either of those other two cities. They're just like writing these long papers that are, you know, it's just like circular references. And they're not sort of exposed to any kind of innovation or anything that transcends the limits of like reason alone, which can become very circular because reason needs to be open to more than reason. This is a central point. Like reason, where's reason going?

What are we doing with it? Sam Altman tweeted like yesterday, or he didn't tweet, he said it in a thing. He was like, "Well, what I've realized is that intelligence," which I take him to mean reason, like reason can just sort of become this detached thing completely, and then we can just put it inside of computers. And that's basically— AI is just going to— and it's like, well, no, you can't just detach reason from these other, you know, these other— from embodiment, right? From like a human person. Like, what is it for?

Right? So this disintegration has been a topic that's been fascinating me for a long time because like whenever I feel disintegrated, it usually has to— because I'm like all in one of those three cities. and I feel most whole when I'm sort of finding a way to live at the intersection with all of them. So this is fundamentally, I think this is one of the big problems of our time. I think all of the big debates about AI are happening without any involvement of Jerusalem whatsoever. And Jerusalem can propose answers for the teleology and the end, like what does this all mean?

They at least need to be at the table. And like going back to earlier in the conversation, there's no bridges. There's simply no way to get from one to the other. People have a hard time, as you said, like somehow transcending whatever world that they spend most of their time in. And I'm trying to bring people together. And this whole thing that I'm organizing in November this year, I always hate mentioning dates on podcasts because I know people listen to this will be listening to this next year too, probably.

But I'm hosting this event. I'm trying the whole framework. My whole mental model is to get all 3 of those cities in the same room having interesting conversations with each other. And I just know that good things are going to happen. And it's not— I'm not making it up. I test this in my own life every week to the extent that I can, right, in various ways.

And I know that that's when all of the most interesting things happen. Whether it's just good conversation, engaging real conversations, innovation. I mean, you know, if I was going to start another company, I would probably want representation from Athens, Jerusalem, and Silicon Valley.

[01:03:00] Paul: What, what are the best parts you've seen being part of a university that have the potential to really— that we can lean on in the coming decades?

[01:03:12] Luke Burgis: The best positive things about being at a university?

[01:03:14] Paul: Yeah. Because I think universities get dunked on probably too unfairly sometimes. I think there's a lot of great things that happens at universities and we mostly, especially people outside of academia, just focus on the nonsense and waste, which is definitely bountiful. But there are a lot of great things that go on in these environments, I think.

[01:03:40] Luke Burgis: Yeah, and some of the best conversations that I've had in the last 5 years have happened with my colleagues at my university. You know, you've got a university that has all these different departments, these diverse departments in it, and you know, when you have somebody from philosophy, somebody from English, somebody from theology, somebody like me who's in the Center for Entrepreneurship in the business school, politics, you got all these different people that are able to have conversations with one another. I'm probably very lucky. I'm at a university that we don't have some of the nonsense that's happening in other places not happening at our school. So I'm lucky we're able to have these real conversations where people are not scared to speak and say what they think and seek the truth together. Right.

The word dialogue, dialogos, right? Two people seeking the logos, seeking the truth together, shoulder to shoulder. I feel like I can do that. And a university should be a place where you are liberal arts, you should be free. You should feel free to seek the truth. And that happens.

There's a lot of amazing information sharing that happens. There is organizational wisdom that's been passed down from a university that's well over 100 years old. You know, we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think you're right. It's easy to dunk on higher education and schools and tuition. That is a problem.

But in the environment itself when there's real intellectual diversity and academic freedom to the extent that I've seen that, it's hard to recreate that inside of a for-profit company for instance, right? So there is something privileged about being in a place where you can have intellectual discourse And I mean, I'm hosting this conference at the university because it's a place where, you know, people can come together and have conversations that I simply haven't seen anywhere else in terms of like when a business hosts some kind of a conference, it's sort of like the usual suspects show up. And they're usually people that are in some, in some case, like, linked to some kind of a motive that the company has. So when profit is removed from that, sometimes it allows for the kind of conversation that can be free from the wrong motivations. What are you hoping comes out of this?

[01:06:10] Paul: How are you thinking about the next sort of chapter of your journey as well?

[01:06:15] Luke Burgis: Part of the cool thing is that I don't, I don't know. And I'm in a position, I'm in that cool position where with a baby on the way, I don't know what my life's going to look like a year from now. I've got— I've been told I've got some guesses, at least the first 3 months. But I love not knowing. There's something exciting about that, of being able to let go, especially those first 3 months. I'll probably write a little bit, right?

I'm going to be on leave, but I'm going to write probably just for my own sanity when I'm up in the middle of the night. But it's going to be a And I know, I know that having a child is going to give me a completely different perspective on all of the very things that I've been talking about for the last couple of years. Probably the number one request I get is like, Luke, like, why don't you write a book like this but for children? And I'm like, well, I'm not going to do that because I don't have children yet. Yeah. So maybe, maybe this, maybe this will, will, will help, will help with that and eventually lead to some new projects.

But in general, though, I love one of the best parts about writing and putting ideas out there into the world in whatever form you do it in, whether it's a podcast, not just writing, right? Just like putting— having conversations and real conversations and putting ideas out there in the written form or in oral form is, you know, people are listening and people are reading. And, you know, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation if we both hadn't done that. And it's really, really satisfying to be able to meet you, to be able to meet other people that have read my work. And I know It's got to be the same for you. You know, you get these messages and you have these— you realize how many kindred souls are out there.

And, you know, each of these conversations— I mean, for me, a book is a conversation starter. It's all it is. It's really what it was for me. And it's proven to be true and effective. We're having one. I've had thousands of others.

And the conversations seem to be leading towards something. And I can't tell you what it is, and I'm cool with that. So I'm certainly on the Pathless Path right now and enjoying it along the way.

[01:08:26] Paul: I love it. I would say, I think based on learning a lot about you and how you're thinking about life, I think you'll be surprised at how amazing those first 3 months actually are. I think this is something my wife and I have reflected on. It's actually far, far, far better than we ever imagined. And the costs are legible and easily understand, easy to understand. And they do suck, but like the upsides are just so rich.

So I'm definitely excited for you. And I think, yeah, it's funny, people have asked me, oh, you should do a Pathless Path parenting book. It's like I'm 4 months into this. I don't know anything. Um, but yeah, people are already—

[01:09:15] Luke Burgis: are you 4 months in right now? Yeah. I didn't realize it was that recent. Wow, man. Congratulations. So you're, you're just coming out of those first 3 months.

It's weird though.

[01:09:24] Paul: It's not our, our daughters slept pretty good, but if you stagger sleep, this is like inside strategy. On parenting, like my wife and I both really, we are not, we didn't prioritize work at all in the first 3 months. If we could fit it in, we fit it in. And we just really started with how can we both thrive such that if one person's down, the other is thriving, right? So if I don't get, like, if she's not getting good sleep, I'm going to try and get good sleep so that she can sleep during the day. And just like working as a team.

But man, the baby cuddles and the baby laughs are just like, it's all worth it.

[01:10:08] Luke Burgis: Can't wait, my friend. Yeah.

[01:10:11] Paul: And I think, I think it makes things easier. It's weird as the guy, I think, prior to giving birth because you're not going through a transformation, whereas the woman is going through a day-to-day transformation and actually building a connection. I think in the final 4 months, the baby's like dancing every day. And yeah, even after the birth, it really still is like a slow process, I think, for the man because it's, it's a different relationship. But it can be, it can be pretty beautiful from what I've experienced so far. So excited for you.

[01:10:50] Luke Burgis: Yeah, I know. She's— we're in the second trimester and she's feeling a lot of dancing already. It's amazing how, you know, what— how transformation happens, right? Like, in a person, it's— transformation is always mysterious, right? It's just not always easy to find a cause and effect. I mean, in the case of a woman who's pregnant and having a baby, it's pretty obvious there, right?

The body is changing completely. There's this mystery and gift of life. I mean, it's just an amazing thing to think about a person, human, growing inside of you. So, I mean, that transformation is a little easier to understand. So, you know, we're transformed when things happen to us, right? Usually, you know, through life.

But then there's also part of it that has to come from us, right? I mean, you can have the same inciting incident can happen to two people and they can respond in two totally different ways. Like some person could just they could seem like it didn't affect them at all, and the other person could respond in a way and sort of lean into it and be transformed. And, um, that's the part I'm interested in, right? It's something I feel like I need to, um, something I need to sort of respond to in a certain way. And it's easier for my wife to respond to it right now than, than, than for me.

Um, and I'm just kind of— sometimes I feel like I'm along for the ride, uh, but I know at some point there's going to come a time where I need to sort of like shift it into into second gear or something like that, and something's going to— something different is going to happen.

[01:12:21] Paul: Yeah, I think it's just really hard during the pregnancy for the man, but I think after the baby comes, it, it does completely transform you. But I think this is the interesting thing you're exploring with the thick desires, because to me, getting in touch with your thick desires is all about self-awareness around what really matters for you, are about what you're seeking to have in terms of what matters to you. Because a lot of people are cynical about the sleep in the first 3 months because they're basically living life downstream of what a story is about how they think they're supposed to be reacting. And I think the power of the thick desires is really not trusting those stories and getting in touch with Oh, how am I actually feeling? And yeah, yeah, I love that so much.

[01:13:16] Luke Burgis: Well, that, that is the first time I think anybody has framed thin desires or linked it to stories, right? Like the scripts and the stories. But there's a lot there, man. Like you're— I'm going to leave this conversation mulling on that one probably tonight when I go for a run or something and when I write something up, uh, in the next month, I will credit you for giving me that idea. Because I do think that's— that there, there is a deep connection between thin desires and stories. Because the thin desire would not exist if we didn't have some idea in our head about what that thin desire would do for us if we fulfilled it, right?

[01:13:56] Paul: They're inseparable things. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's sort of simple to think about, right? If you picture, all right, I'm gonna get promoted to— or I'm gonna found a company and then exit it, right? You can almost instantly come up with a story and an expectation of how you think you would feel. But if you instead said, all right, I'm gonna take this random course and then wander around in Italy for a while and follow that, you don't really have a feeling for how that should feel. And I think that's why people don't do it.

Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm excited to read your, uh, perspective on that. So I have one question I like to ask people at the end. Do you have any PATH role models?

[01:14:43] Luke Burgis: I have— I've had a lot along the way, but nobody listening to this podcast probably has ever heard of them. You know, I have a lot of hidden models, right? Simple people in my life that have come along, along the way at various times. And one of the models that affected me profoundly when I was living in Vegas, right around the time that I was embarking on that reeducation in the coffee shop was an attorney who had a large family and was probably the happiest man I've ever met in my life. He still is to this day. Good friends.

And had 5 kids and was a partner at a law firm. And we struck up a friendship. We met through a mutual friend and struck up this friendship. And he welcomed me into his home. You know, I was a young, single entrepreneur guy at the time. And welcomed me into his home.

You know, he'd invite me over every couple of weeks for dinner, and the whole family would just shower me with love. And we'd grill out in the backyard. And I saw in him a model for somebody who on paper should be incredibly busy and stressed out all the time. Like, how in the world do you have 5 kids and you're a partner at a prestigious Las Vegas law firm? And he didn't— he didn't have any of the things that I would expect to see in somebody like him. And he gave me hope, right?

He gave me hope and inspiration that, you know, there was a— there's a lot of reasons why he was able to have that disposition. He wasn't just born that way. He might have been sort of born a little bit. Maybe disposition is part of it. But he also was very intentional about the way that he lived his life and has served as a model for me when, you know, people give excuses and, you know, if you want to have this kind of life, then these are the things that you need to do. You know, you shouldn't have this many kids, or you shouldn't, you know, do X, Y, and Z.

That listening to those voices, I mean, in my experience, it's even, even listening to people telling me about how the first 3 months of pregnancy are going to be. I know it's— my experience is going to be different than anything that I've heard so far. And because, you know, I'm me and Claire is Claire, and we have our own family, and we all experience things subjectively. So that guy, Rick is his name, was a model and an inspiration for me. And I was like, whatever he has, I want some of that, that joy and happiness that he has, his ability to be present to me. Like, when I'm in his home, he is completely present to me in every moment.

And I would just like to be able to one day, when I have a family, invite some young guy or girl, whatever, over to our house, to our home, with my family and make them feel the way that he made me feel, um, because it would put me on a completely different trajectory.