Diania Merriam on Imagining The New American Dream

[01:38] Paul: Today I'm talking with Diana Merriam, who's the founder of the Econome Conference, which explores what the new American dream looks like. She's also a remote worker and someone who inspires me, who's very intentional about designing a life she actually wants to live. Welcome to the podcast, Diana.

[02:01] Diania Merriam: Thanks so much for having me.

[02:03] Paul: I'd love to start with that almost polarizing phrase these days of the American Dream. What was the American Dream to you growing up?

[02:14] Diania Merriam: Well, I think my initial American Dream is, uh, very similar to kind of how we all traditionally think of it, which, you know, you imagine going to college and getting a big fancy job and climbing the ladder and buying the big house with the white picket fence and, you know, getting married and having the 2.5 children and, you know, just kind of the traditional narrative that our culture typically subscribes to. I think I very much fell into that. And I used to say pretty obnoxiously when I was growing up that I wanted to be the world's highest paid female CEO. That was my ambition. And it's like, the CEO of what, right? Like, the, the idea behind it was not that I wanted to make a difference or I wanted to build something, or I— no, it was just that I wanted status and money.

And that's really what my focus was for a long time. And I had to kind of, um, reach a lot of goals and to realize that those actually weren't my goals. They were what society was telling me that I should want. And so, um, probably around the time I turned 30, it was a big identity crisis of like, who the hell am I and what do I want? And how do I separate that from what society is telling me I should want?

[03:36] Paul: Yeah, that definitely resonates with so many people I talked to on this podcast. I think it resonates with my own story too. I reflect back and think of myself saying when I was very young, I want to be rich when I'm older. That's kind of crazy, right? Right. Why?

Yeah, why? Where am I coming up with that? Like, why no other specifics?

[03:58] Diania Merriam: Right. And it's like, just being rich in its own right, where does that get you? Like, great, you have a lot of money, but do you have relationships? Do you have fulfilling ways to spend your time? You know, uh, there's just so much more to life satisfaction than being rich.

[04:15] Paul: Yeah. And you also remind me of something I wrote about. There's this hidden side that nobody talks about as much, which previous generations rising in organizations, there was much higher rates of organic growth. It was much easier to go up in an organization. And I think a lot of people I talked to in our generation, the, I guess we're like the older millennials. Keep rising to all these like kind of faux promotions, but doing the same thing.

But it's actually almost impossible to, uh, make it to those very senior levels because the people there aren't retiring. They've been in the jobs for 50 years, 15 years. Uh, did you sense any of that that kind of woke you up first before you started down the journey of your, um, other paths?

[05:07] Diania Merriam: Well, I'd say, you know, I look at some of the senior executives in my own organization, and you think you want to be there for— I mean, for me, it was really for the status and money, right? But then when I look at how stressed out they are and what they actually have to do day to day, it's like, no, I don't want that. I don't want that to actually be my life. So then when you're like, okay, I don't want to climb to that position, well, then what do I actually want?

[05:37] Paul: I had a very similar thing. I really struggled to find many male role models that I looked at and said, oh, I definitely want their life. There were one or two. And then a lot of the women I was inspired by were kind of dropping out of the workforce to raise families and didn't really have any good models of what to look up to. Uh, what was the first moment you had cracks in this vision to be the highest paid CEO in the world? I presume because the U.S.

has the highest paid CEO, so you were really aspiring to be the highest paid CEO in the world.

[06:16] Diania Merriam: Oh yeah, world domination. Um, I'd say so. Okay, one of— I would say there's stepping stones on the way to that, right? And I remember being in college and just thinking about a career path. And I was talking to a professor. And one of the goals that they had kind of planted this seed of try to make six figures by 30.

Like, if you're making— if you could hit six figures by 30, like you're on a good track. And so that was like a metric that I had for myself. And so then I hit it. And I was like, great. It didn't, it didn't feel the way that I expected it to feel. I didn't, you feel like I was on this path to world domination.

It just kind of becomes your norm. And so when I hit a goal like that, and I didn't feel the way that I expected to feel it, I think it started to make me question, well, what about these other goals?

[07:09] Paul: Yeah.

[07:09] Diania Merriam: You know, am I not going to feel the way I expect to feel when I actually reach them? So let me like, really start to dive into that and think about, why do I have these goals? Where are they coming from? Are they me coming up with them, or are they, again, society kind of implanting these things that I think that I want that aren't actually coming from my internal guidance?

[07:32] Paul: How did that initial exploration emerge? Was it something you read, writing, reflection, conversations with people?

[07:42] Diania Merriam: Yeah, I think all of that. Um, you know, I read a lot of personal development books. I know you've recommended a couple of good books to me. So definitely kind of exploring what do I want, why do I want it, just internally and through conversations. But I would, I would say a big turning point for me was a couple years ago, I walked the Camino. So I took a 2-month sabbatical, unpaid sabbatical from work to go do this crazy thing, which is walking 500 miles across Spain.

[08:14] Paul: And yeah, Can we pause there? So I think there's something really interesting here and I want to just try and capture it. I talk to a lot of people who want to do things like this and I suggest to them, why don't you take unpaid leave from your job? And it just seems unimaginable to people. So maybe first, and we'll definitely get to your exploration of walking the Camino, but how did you build up the courage to even ask for such a thing?

[08:51] Diania Merriam: Well, first of all, I think I got lucky because I work for an organization, and specifically the woman that I work for, I really truly believe that she cares about my well-being, and that's pretty rare to feel that way about your employer.

[09:04] Paul: Isn't that so sad?

[09:06] Diania Merriam: Yeah, I know, it is, it is sad. Um, So I think I lucked out in, in that I found myself in those circumstances. And on the other hand, I was also pretty valuable to my organization. So I've made them like $30 million or something like that, but in the time that I've been working there, and they've rewarded me for that. So like 3 years in a row, they were giving me amazing raises, I felt very appreciated. And I got to the point where you know, I felt really comfortable on my income and I didn't feel like I needed another raise, which is crazy, right?

You always just want to make more money, more money, more money. But from all my reading and conversations and self-exploration, I realized that time and freedom is at this point in my life is more valuable than more money. And so I was able to have a— I had a very good year again. And so during my review, and when we closed the fiscal year, I said, look, I really don't need another raise. What I need is more time and freedom. And so I'm going to make this pretty unconventional ask.

And it was scary. I'm not going to say that I was like this, you know, strong, courageous person that went in and, and asked for it. I was really scared because I knew that there was a highly high likelihood that they could deny my request. And by that time, I had really rearranged my whole life to be able to do this and saved a lot of money and kind of had my safety net in case they said no. And I tell myself, if they would have said no, I would have went anyway. But that just sounds good on a podcast.

I don't know that that's actually true. Right? Like, I don't know that I can claim that I'm that brave. I lucked out that they said yes.

[10:57] Paul: Yeah, you almost need to tell yourself that to even walk in the room and ask that question, right?

[11:03] Diania Merriam: Right.

[11:04] Paul: Otherwise you're going to back down the first time they say, uh, actually this is how we're going to do it.

[11:10] Diania Merriam: Yeah. And I didn't have any examples, just like you didn't have good examples of, you know, men in that position. I didn't have any examples of anyone who was, you know, a hard worker and as ambitious as I claimed be asking for a 2-month unpaid leave. I mean, maybe if you, you know, I actually justified it by saying like, if I had a kid, I'd be gone for 3 months. I don't want to birth a child. I want to birth a world adventure.

Can I get 2 months off?

[11:41] Paul: Yeah, it's, that's fascinating. So take me to the Camino. What were your thoughts like the flight over to Spain or wherever you flew in, where was your head at that point?

[12:00] Diania Merriam: Oh, I've just— I can feel the feelings now of just being terrified. I mean, this was something that was really outside my comfort zone. Um, when I was preparing to go, a lot of my preparation was the physical side of things. So I was training a lot. I was breaking in my hiking shoes. I was doing these like 15-mile walks to try to like get my body ready.

I'd never really considered myself a very athletic person, so I was a bit anxious about my physical ability to do it. I also talked to like 20 people who had done it before I left to— oh my God, I would ask them so many questions. I would, you know, I built this packing list of all the stuff I was taking with me and I'd have everyone review it to make sure I wasn't forgetting anything. It's a very Type A way to go about it, right? I think a gift of the Camino is embracing uncertainty. And that was really hard for me as a, as a Type A person.

I'm a planner. And so I planned as much as I possibly could on the material side, on the physical side. But what I could never plan for is kind of the emotional side of being without work for 2 months, completely disconnecting. And dealing with the uncertainty of, you know, I didn't know where I was gonna sleep every night. I didn't know where I was gonna get food. I just had to trust that I was gonna walk and find it.

And so, yeah, I think just battling the uncertainty of all of it on the way there and while I was in it, you know, I was feeling a lot of that, struggling with it for sure.

[13:40] Paul: Any moments that stand out and how far along? Were you in the walk?

[13:48] Diania Merriam: Um, actually, when I think about the walk, the first day is something that really stands out to me because, you know, I wake up at 5 in the morning and the first day I'm going over the Pyrenees Mountains. So it's 27 kilometers over this big mountain. And, you know, it's one of the hardest days and it's the first day. And a lot of people, I remember there's certain people around me were maybe a little unprepared. Like I remember this one woman, her pack was too big and it wasn't fitted well to her. So she was struggling with it.

Everyone was struggling with their feet. You know, like I actually wasn't as struggling as much as the people around me. And so I felt overcome with this feeling of generosity. That I had— I was like an asshole New Yorker before, you know, so I was always just focused on myself. And to actually be genuinely concerned about the people around me, it's like this instant sense of camaraderie that you're going over this mountain with these people. And, you know, some people didn't have enough water and I was carrying more water than I needed, so I was able to help them.

Or, you know, I had some things for blisters in my pack and I was able to help people. Or I had some extra food on me, that kind of thing. Um, so I would say that first day and feeling so, um, connected with the people around me that I didn't even know, um, really stands out a lot.

[15:18] Paul: That's amazing. I think sometimes it's this hidden cost to the default American dream, which is you make a lot of money, therefore you don't need to rely on other people, right? And it's almost such a gift to let other people take care of you. And that's really something I've, uh, discovered in the past couple years, which is this idea of extreme individuality, taking care of yourself. It's seen as a goal, but then you don't get to help others, or you don't get to let others help you. And there's a hidden cost there, and it's not easy to understand that, but it sounds like you captured some of what— I mean, you can't put a value on that.

That's just beautiful.

[16:07] Diania Merriam: No. Yeah. I mean, you can have all the money in the world and like pay people to do all the things that you need them to do. But think about just even simple things like, for example, last week I got a flat tire when I was on my way home from my boyfriend's house. And it was only like a couple blocks away and he was able to come and like help me out. Like, yeah, I could pay someone or have AAA or whatever, but like the convenience of having someone that I could call to come and help me in a time of need, you really, you can't put a value on that.

[16:41] Paul: Yeah. So I'd love to dive into some of the other shifts you made. You discovered some of the FIRE movement, Mr. Money Mustache, a couple other guests on the podcast have talked about that. Highly recommend checking out the blog.

[16:56] Diania Merriam: Absolutely.

[16:58] Paul: And so you negotiated as well to turn your full-time job in person in New York into a remote job in Cincinnati. You embraced minimalism, frugality. You kind of explored all these things. I love it because I've explored a lot of these things too. And it's really hard to explain to people. People see me as being cheap.

But what they don't see is that shifting this kind of equation, which is if you spend less, you have to work less and you worry less. And you also have more free time. You free up all this kind of like mind space for just thinking about deeper things that matter to you or just creative projects like you've done with the conference. What has been some of the unexpected surprises? for you in some of these explorations?

[17:52] Diania Merriam: Yeah. Um, so when I discovered Mr. Money Mustache and the FIRE movement, it was probably the fall of 2015. I was $30 grand in debt for no good reason. I was just living outside my means in New York City.

[18:05] Paul: Well, you're going to be the highest paid CEO in the world.

[18:08] Diania Merriam: Yeah, I figured I was going to figure it out later. Yeah. When I was making my millions. I tease myself about this all the time, so you're welcome to too.

[18:19] Paul: What, what were some of the expenses?

[18:23] Diania Merriam: Oh, it was going out. It was— I was going out to dinner like every night. I was partying. I mean, to me, New York City is all about like being in your 20s and being irresponsible and partying all the time, right? I mean, that's what it was for me.

[18:35] Paul: $100 dinners every night. Oh yeah, I think.

[18:38] Diania Merriam: Okay, totally, totally. Um, so when I read Mr. Money Mustache, I just never heard anyone talk about money the way that he did. And it's not just about money, but like the way that you're using your time and resourcefulness. I mean, that really lit me up because, you know, as much as I scaled back on my spending, a lot of people around me would look at it like deprivation. I mean, what you're talking about, people think it's cheap, right?

First of all, I want to—

[19:06] Paul: or you're sacrificing, right?

[19:09] Diania Merriam: A couple things there. I think that there's a huge difference between being cheap and being frugal. If you're frugal I think you're looking for the most resourceful way to get your needs met without sacrifice. When you're cheap, you're just looking for the cheapest option. So a good example I like to use is, you know, in New York City, they have all these places where you can get a dollar slice of pizza, right? It's probably the cheapest lunch option to just go get a dollar slice of pizza.

That's the cheap way out. But you're not getting your nutrition. You're not getting your real food needs met. Right. So the frugal way that I would do is pack a kale salad. I'd make these awesome kale salads.

It's my signature salad. It's kale, quinoa, goat cheese, avocado, pickled red onions, tomatoes, and cucumbers, and whatever other vegetables I have around.

[20:01] Paul: Free recipe tips here on the Reimagine Work podcast.

[20:05] Diania Merriam: So I mean, I'd bring a kale salad every day to work. And so it was a frugal option. It wasn't the cheapest one, but it was the most resourceful way that I could get my needs met.

[20:16] Paul: Are you saving on the back end healthcare costs too?

[20:19] Diania Merriam: Exactly, exactly. Um, so that's what I'll say about cheap versus frugal. But when it comes to the resourcefulness and almost this self-imposed, uh, deprivation, I guess you can call it— it didn't feel like deprivation because I was able to tap into this creativity that I didn't know that I had. You know, I was cooking every meal that I would eat So I got really good in the kitchen and really, it became really satisfying to me to cook. A lot of people say, "Oh, you're only one person, like to cook for one is not fun." That's just something people say, I think. Yeah, I'm living proof that it could be very satisfying.

I mean, I'd make myself these like candlelit dinners, beautiful dinners, and you know what, I loved it. It felt like I was really taking good care of myself. And then I'd also invite people over for dinner all the time. I could feed a table of 8 people for like $30. I mean, I got really good at it. They bring all the booze, I make the food, and I was— my goal was to make my apartment more fun than a bar so that I didn't feel like I was missing out by not going out every night.

So that was super fun. And I would, I would like make up all these games to have people come over. So I remember this one night I told people, bring a picture of you during your awkward phase. Like when you're 12 and you're like not grown into your face yet. And so we like passed around these pictures of everyone in their awkward phase and had a good laugh about it. So it's that kind of creativity that it almost replaced the thrill that I got from buying stuff I didn't need and just finding ways to get my needs met.

Like, for example, I— the people who lived below me in my apartment in Brooklyn, I split my internet with them. So I cut that bill in half. It didn't affect the functionality of, you know, me enjoying the internet at all. It helps them out. And it just, it was like a simple way of getting that one need met that was very creative and gratifying. So when you compound all of those little things over time, it becomes a habit.

It doesn't feel like hard or it doesn't take a lot of effort because it becomes a habit and it just has its own satisfaction in its own right. But then it also saves you money. So it's just, there's just huge benefits to a lifestyle that maybe our, our society may deem as, you know, it looks like deprivation.

[22:50] Paul: Yeah. Well, I think with some of these things, I mean, they can be stressful at first or at least uncomfortable. It seems you've tried to actively transcend that by injecting joy into what you're doing.

[23:05] Diania Merriam: Yeah.

[23:05] Paul: Has that almost been your secret weapon to like deal with the natural discomfort of dealing with the change?

[23:12] Diania Merriam: Yeah. I mean, I think if, if you're suffering, then what's the point, right? You get one life. And I think that's kind of that—

[23:19] Paul: I think the Buddha would agree with you.

[23:21] Diania Merriam: Right. Uh, you know, it's one of the things I like to say is it's not enough to not buy the Tesla. You also have to actually not want it. And that's a, that's a bigger question, right? Mr. Money Mustache says that luxury is a weakness, and I totally agree with that.

If you're only satisfied with, with luxuries, or you constantly have that fear of missing out, and, um, you know, you constantly need that to— what's the words I'm looking for? Um, almost like the stakes have to be higher and higher for you to get that dopamine rush, right? I think it's a skill set to be really satisfied by simplicity and for it to not feel like, you know, a sacrifice.

[24:09] Paul: Yeah, it's been interesting living in Taiwan for me where I think there's much more of an appreciation And this goes back like thousands of years. My partner was telling me Confucius would, like it was part of his beliefs that like simplicity is honorable, right? So this is injected in the culture and it's not in the American culture we grew up in, right? So it's really cool to be in that culture and do things that are really simple and it feels much more kind of like flowing to like how life is there. Um, but it can be unnatural here, especially when people around you are constantly telling you what you should want. Um, but yeah, that dealing with that root desire of what you want is the real challenge, not just denying yourself the purchase.

[25:06] Diania Merriam: Absolutely. Yeah.

[25:09] Paul: I'd love to dive into economy. So I have some insight into how that started. You signed up. I, another example of your resourcefulness. I put out a call for a free participant in my program and you signed up for that. You actively participated.

You got a ton of value out of it. And started taking action on this conference, which I am consistently this crazy person who just tells people they should just move faster and do stuff. So I hope that helped, but I'd love to hear, like, I think when you did this course with us, you were a bit stuck, but the idea was like so ready, and I felt like I could see this. and you just needed to move on it. Um, where were you at that point? Like, talk to me about having this idea and being a little stuck and like some initial steps you took to get past that.

[26:15] Diania Merriam: Yeah, I am thinking back to when I did that program with you and the group and it, man, it seems like it was so long ago. That was probably a year and a half or more.

[26:27] Paul: Yeah, year and a half.

[26:29] Diania Merriam: Yeah, and I, you know, I had this idea of this big project. I wanted to do this big conference. And you definitely pushed me to like take actions before I was ready.

[26:41] Paul: That's my specialty.

[26:43] Diania Merriam: Yeah, you really did. But it was— I needed that because I think if I didn't have someone else pushing me, I just— I can be very cerebral about this stuff. Like you can think about it. And think about it and think about it, but until you get action, take action and get feedback, you know, you're not really going to get anywhere. So I would say this conference, basically it is like the TED Talks of the FIRE movement. And I was really inspired by, you know, World Domination Summit, which I think you're going next year, right?

[27:17] Paul: Yeah, I'll be there in July or June.

[27:20] Diania Merriam: Amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. So that'll actually be the first time we meet in person.

[27:25] Paul: Oh wow. That is another crazy thing about just all the people I've connected with. I sometimes feel like I know people through video chat, but then I realize I haven't actually met them.

[27:36] Diania Merriam: Yeah, awesome. So I love World Domination Summit. I mean, I got introduced to that from Mr. Money Mustache because he spoke at it one year. And so that's how it got on my radar. And so I've gone the last 3 years in a row, and next year will be the last year.

But just to be at this very well-produced event with incredible speakers and to be surrounded by really open-minded people that you kind of feed off of their energy and you have these amazing conversations, and everyone there is almost like living this unconventional life. And it's so interesting to hear about the different ways that people are going about that. You get all these book recommendations, you make so many good connections. I mean, every time I leave that conference, I feel so inspired and I feel just this like, like renewed sense of energy. And so I really wanted to create an event that made other people feel that way about the FIRE movement because Discovering the FIRE movement is what set me on this course to completely change my life.

Wrapping my head around my financial situation, getting out of debt, saving 60% of my income consistently has opened up so many opportunities for me and my life looks completely different now. So I'd love to be able to share that with people. And, and that's really the basis of how this conference came to be. When I first had the idea, you know, it was just, it was so big and I was so excited about it. I remember being at World Domination Summit and it ended on a Sunday and my flight wasn't until late on Monday and there was a guy that had a coworking space that we hung out and like journaled all day and I wrote like 12 pages in my journal about why, all the reasons why I wanted to do this. I actually have to read that.

As things get harder and harder, I have to remind myself of like why the hell I even wanted to do this crazy thing to begin with. But it was just so big in my mind. And a lot of people that I talked to about it would say, why do you got to create this crazy big event with 700 people? And why do you have to go so big? Why can't you just try to get 20 people in the room to listen to one speaker versus 700 to listen to 9 speakers? And have a big party and all that.

And the thing was, if it was a small-scale event, I just wouldn't— I wasn't interested in doing that. Like, that didn't excite me. It was the big event and the amount of energy that you can bring into one room when you do a big event. That was the exciting part to me. And also the caliber of speakers that I've been able to get. I wouldn't have been able to get them if the budget was smaller and the audience was smaller.

So yeah, I mean, at the time I was very attached to doing a big event, but it was very outside my comfort zone. And so when I joined your group, it was really about kind of thinking through it, addressing some of my fears, and then pushing me to take some action that really started to snowball after, after the group disperse.

[30:56] Paul: Yeah. So I know one thing you did was publicly share your story, took it from the journal and posted it in the Mr. Money Mustache blog. You were very resistant to do this. Um, how did you eventually hit publish and were you surprised at the response from people?

[31:20] Diania Merriam: I'm trying to remember. I think so. I think what I did is I wanted a co-founder and I did a call out for a co-founder. And as a part of that post, I put my story. I'm pretty sure that's how it came to be. It was so hard to take that step because I think we, we, we want to put something out into the world when it's fully baked, especially because when people don't know us, we want to have that good first impression and I'm really put together and I know what I'm doing and I'm capable and blah, blah, blah.

You know, you You don't want to look foolish when you put something out there. And there were actually a lot of responses to that post that were not a lot. That's my negative perception. There were a few.

[32:07] Paul: It feels like a lot. I've gotten those negative responses, right? And they can feel like you're just being attacked in a corner.

[32:16] Diania Merriam: And especially when— and here's another reason why I wanted to create an event. Is because a lot of the community around the FIRE movement is online. And it's great, like, that people help each other online and all that, but it's not my preferred mode of communication because I read how shitty people can be to each other online. And so when people are behind a screen, it's like they give themselves permission to let the negativity shine through. So there were like a few responses that were kind of like, who the hell are you to do this? You're a nobody.

Nobody knows you. Screw those people. Right. And so I remember I had an amazing conversation with the producer of Playing with Fire, which is the first documentary about the fire movement, and we're screening it at Econome Conference. And I remember talking to him, yeah, and when we were kind of talking about how we can collaborate, one of the things I mentioned to him is you know, some of that negativity online, how hard it is to deal with, and he dealt with it too because he was new to the fire movement and he wanted to produce this film and he put it out there and he got the same thing like, "Who the hell are you? Who do you think you are that you could do this?

It's not like you've had a blog for 10 years and you have this strong following and you're kind of building on that. You're starting from nothing and you want to do this big project." And what he said to me, it still sticks with me, is that the people that are saying those things are also the people that are not doing anything themselves, right? Like they're not launching anything there, you know, so it says a lot more about them than it does about us and it could be, you know, their own things that they're dealing with and, you know, the words that come out of other people's mouths are more about them than they are about you, but it's hard to, you know, to remember that when you're trying to digest negative, the negativity that you're bound to encounter on any big project.

[34:15] Paul: That's such a good thing to remember because I mean, I'm doing this podcast, I write online, I feel like a fool all the time. And if I see other people starting stuff, there's no way I'm going to criticize them because I know what it feels like to feel like a fool. and I think this is one of the hardest things because this is almost another, it's kind of like tangential to this American dream we grew up with, which is that you need to have certain credentials to do something.

[34:46] Diania Merriam: Right.

[34:46] Paul: You need, everything needs to be perfect when you launch, which makes a ton of sense if you're Procter Gamble launching a new product, right? It doesn't make sense. If you're a solo creator and all you're trying to figure out what to do is what to do next, right? So I've been trying to push people to reframe this creativity to the goal is not to create something that's perfect. It's actually to challenge yourself to improve and then to figure out where to go next. Uh, does that resonate with some of the initial steps you took?

[35:25] Diania Merriam: Oh, 100%. I mean, I can't tell you. I mean, this just turned into a full-time job, so I now have two full-time jobs. Um, but a lot of it is trial and error. And, you know, I've talked to so many people where, you know, you think about how many, like, people reach out to you, or I'm trying this, or I'm trying that, or— okay, so here's a good example. I thought that I was gonna do a Kickstarter for initial ticket sales for a number of reasons.

I wanted to do a Kickstarter because I also met another guy at World Domination Summit that started a conference and he did a Kickstarter that went really well and like he talked me through all the reasons why, you know, a Kickstarter was beneficial. So I was a bit attached to that idea because of his influence. I saw it as a marketing platform in its own right. So for someone who doesn't have a blog, who doesn't have a following and I'm trying to build that from scratch. I thought it could help with that. I also thought it could help with maybe people are really supportive of the idea, but they don't, they aren't able to attend for whatever reason, or they just want to support me.

They would be able to, you know, almost donate to the cause without buying a ticket. So there were a lot of reasons why I wanted to do a Kickstarter, but it got overcomplicated. You know, you have to have a really cool Kickstarter video in order to get attention. And it was gonna cost me like $7,000 to produce a Kickstarter video. I interviewed like 5 different filmmakers to be able to do it. And it just felt like I was putting so many eggs in that basket.

And there were so many unknowns still with the conference to invest so heavily in the Kickstarter. I just ended up like pulling the plug on it. After I had already, I paid a deposit for the film, for the filmmaker, so I had to walk away from that deposit. All the time and energy that I put into trying to figure out the Kickstarter, it wasn't wasted effort, it was more, it was something I needed to explore so that I could say, okay, I went down that road, I decided it wasn't right, pulled the plug on it, and I just opened up ticket sales on Eventbrite.

[37:34] Paul: I love it. You know, just simple, right? Just put it out there.

[37:38] Diania Merriam: Yeah, but it was hard because I opened up ticket sales and like August, and I think I sold like 1 ticket or like, I think I sold maybe 10 tickets by the time October came around. And then, and then that's when a lot of the podcasts that I had already recorded that they were being released and early bird pricing was ending at the end of October. So by end of October, then I sold 100 tickets. So 100 tickets are sold by end of October. And now again, we're here in on January 4th, Um, you know, they, they've kind of fallen off again. So it's scary.

Like, should I have done the Kickstarter? What are the— but you know, shoulda, coulda, woulda. Yeah. I can't live there. Like things are happening the way that they're supposed to happen. I just gotta trust that, um, you know, it, it's gonna, it's gonna work out fine.

[38:27] Paul: So hopefully there's a Reimagine Work bounce and I can start telling people there's this effect, but, um, I don't know how many people, um, are listening, but I actually bought a ticket. And at the beginning, I'm going to give that away to someone who's a listener. Um, so if you share this episode, um, and you can make this same offer to your community too. If you share this effort or this episode of the podcast, I will, um, add you to a potential free giveaway for a ticket. The conference is in Cincinnati. Um, but yeah, I'll blast that out to my newsletter, um, readers as well.

And hopefully we get some, uh, more traction.

[39:14] Diania Merriam: Yeah. Thank you for that.

[39:16] Paul: How many, so you're about 8 weeks out. This is going to go out within the next week, uh, which is the second week of January. Uh, talk to me about the final stretch, where you're at, um, what you need. What people should— where people should go to check it out?

[39:34] Diania Merriam: Absolutely. So the website is EconomeConference.com, and it's M-E, Econome. So that's where you can kind of read about our speakers. See, I need to add the full schedule to the website and like a facts page, but you can read about the speakers. You can kind of see what the event's all about. All the other podcasts that I've been on are also there, so you can kind of listen to me, chat away about economy all day if you'd like.

But yeah, basically where I'm at now is still spreading the word. So I'm looking for sponsors. I reached out to like over 50 companies to try to find sponsors, which is really hard to find for a first-year event, but I'm trying anyway. I'm reaching out to a lot of different local organizations to try to get them to kind of share this with, you know, Hopefully it's a subject matter that they think would be interesting for their followers and they'd be willing to help me share. I'm sponsoring a couple of other events to also get the word out and reaching out to a number of student groups and professors because I am offering students half price to the conference. So I think it's a great opportunity for someone just starting their career to walk into it with the right money mindset that would set them up for long-term wealth.

So that's super exciting to me to be able to offer half price to students. I would say spreading the word is like the thing that I'm most focused on. A lot of the logistical things, getting the venue set up, thinking about videography, the details of the schedule and all of those logistical nuts and bolts that need to come together, I've done a lot of planning on that on the front end. So I was able to kind of take a break and focus on marketing and getting the word out. But now I'm— now that it's 2 months away, I'm coming back around to some of those logistical things. But the logistical stuff is easy for me.

It's the marketing and getting the word out that has actually been the toughest part. But when people hear about it, they respond very positively. And, you know, thinking about when you start something, usually it's your friends and family that are like your initial supporters. I look at those 100 people that already bought tickets. Tickets. I don't know any of them.

[41:46] Paul: Wow.

[41:47] Diania Merriam: I know you.

[41:47] Paul: That's great.

[41:48] Diania Merriam: But, but yeah, I mean, that says a lot, right? That there's a demand for this thing that people that don't even know me, or maybe they heard me on podcasts or something, and then it's enough to make them want to buy a ticket. But yeah, it's gonna be an incredible day. We've got 9 speakers who are experts in the FIRE movement that are tackling money mindset stuff from a lot of different angles. I've been really careful to curate content that would appeal to a broad audience. So when I think about who should attend this kind of event, it's people like me that are already pursuing FI.

So I'm 8 years away. I am still battling my cultural conditioning around money and career success and, you know, those kind of ambitions. And, you know, when you're battling your consumerist culture, I think you need to kind of surround yourself with, with people that have similar mindsets, but then also engage with this kind of content that solidifies these ideals. I say that you should come to Econome if you're pursuing FI to fuel the fire because we need to kind of keep engaged with this kind of stuff to keep our mindset on it. So that's kind of one segment of the audience and I've definitely curated content for people like me, because if you— if we just had speakers get up there, talk about what is financial independence and, you know, what is the 4% rule, people like me are just going to get bored because we already heard this stuff over and over.

So I wanted to make sure that people like me would walk away feeling like they've learned something new. The second part of the audience are people who maybe they've done a Dave Ramsey program, maybe they're financially literate or financially savvy. But they didn't know that you could do like, you could really hypercharge it. They don't know much about the FIRE movement. They're maybe uninspired by their money situation, though they're comfortable. And so there's definitely content I've curated for them.

And then lastly, students. Students are in the best position to pursue financial independence because first of all, they get the benefit of compound interest. And when you start, the best time to start investing as early for that compound interest. And also, aside from their student loan debt, they probably don't have a lot of financial mistakes that they have to dig out of, right? So, you know, if I, I learned about this stuff when I was 28, if I learned, I would hope that I would be receptive to it when I was in college. I mean, I would have just been set up to have a very different decade in my 20s.

So I'm very excited to share it with students. Students, and I've curated content to appeal to everyone. So everyone walks away feeling like they've learned something. The day itself is a full day. I actually mirrored the schedule a lot after World Domination Summit because I feel that the flow of that day works very well. So we'll basically have a session of speakers in the morning.

We'll have a mid-afternoon break where people can go to lunch. They can have attendee-led meetups and also screening of Playing with Fire. So there's like a 3-hour break in the middle of the day for that. And we'll get back together for a second session of speakers. Then everyone goes their own way for dinner and then we meet back up at 8 PM at the Woodward Theatre for an after-party. So it is a jam-packed full-day event.

[45:11] Paul: Yeah. That's amazing. I think the— key thing for these two, especially if you're taking different paths like FIRE, unconventional living, you need friends. Oh yeah. Because I'm sure you've faced challenges from people in your life who kind of say you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be living this way. And it's just a little easier if you have those weird friends who totally say you're not crazy.

Let's share some ideas.

[45:43] Diania Merriam: Yeah, I mean, money is such a taboo subject.

[45:47] Paul: It's so emotional too.

[45:48] Diania Merriam: It's so personal. And what I realize in all of my conversations, I mean, because I'm just like jabbering on about this conference, literally anyone who talks to me, like if you've talked to me over the past year, I have undoubtedly told you about this conference just because that's what I have to do. I have to spread the word, you know. And I met with like two kinds of people. There is one kind of person who will say, "Oh my gosh, you got out of $30,000 of debt in 11 months and you walked the Camino and you moved to Cincinnati and you bought a house and you completely changed your financial situation in a matter of 4 years to the point where you're going to be able to retire before you're 40? That's amazing.

Tell me more about that. I'm curious to see how I might be able to learn from what you're doing and translate it to my life." Right? There's that kind of person. And then there's another kind of person who immediately Immediately when I tell them, you know, I got out of $30,000 of debt in 11 months, oh, I would never be able to do that. I could never do that. Right?

Or, oh, well, you don't have kids and that's why, or you make a high income and that's why, or, you know, it's just that their immediate response is just no. And look, FIRE is not a religion. I am not here to convert anybody because honestly, what other people do with their money is none of my business. It doesn't impact me at all what other people do with their money. But I recognize the value in sharing my story because if Mr. Money Mustache never shared his story, I may still be in New York wasting away, partying all the time.

So I feel that I want to make it accessible, but I don't feel the need to convince anyone. And I recognize that their money mindset and their perceived limitations, you know, then that's just kind of where they're going to stay. And I don't feel the need to convince them. And regardless of the criticism that we get in the FIRE movement or the naysayers, I mean, I said this on another podcast, I don't want to be repetitive, but it's like, could we get angry about something like human trafficking? Why are we getting angry about people saving money? Right?

Like, why is that? Why is it such a problem? But I think what I love it.

[48:06] Paul: That's— I'm, I'm gonna replay that in my ear when people are criticizing me. I get, I get shit for the same thing. It's very, yeah, it's very interesting.

[48:16] Diania Merriam: Get mad about something that's worth getting mad about, you know? I mean, there, there is no harm in, in people saving money and creating a life that, that they're excited about. And I think that people get— it's a touchy thing because at the end of the day, when we're talking about money and we're talking about spending money, we're talking about What do you value? And so let's— I was reading a book. Oh man, I'm going to have to send this to you afterwards because I can't remember what it's called. But it was a really good book and it was talking about this, how the way you spend money and the way you spend your time says a lot about your values.

And so you might want to really investigate that because if you're saying, I really value time with my husband or whatever, my spouse. And yet, you're spending all of your time working or doing other things. Well then, do you really value that, right? Or I really value a marriage and having a good marriage, but I'm going to spend $5,000 on an engagement ring and $30,000 on a huge wedding. So now I have to work really hard to pay that off and I'm not spending time with the person that I spent all this money to spend time with, right? It's just kind of like a catch-22.

What do you actually value? And I think that's why people get so offended about conversations about money is because they feel like they are maybe recognizing a discrepancy in themselves that they don't maybe want to be conscious of. And so it's a very kind of visceral reaction of like, this isn't for me.

[49:55] Paul: Yeah, that's an interesting framing. I like that. You're talking to somebody who actually, I haven't told you this, but me and my wife got married a couple months ago.

[50:05] Diania Merriam: What? Congrats.

[50:07] Paul: And we did it for, we did a marriage registration for $6 in Taiwan. And our thinking was like, we'd rather spend the money on traveling and free time and kind of learning and kind of been experimenting further with building businesses and doing things like this. So, um, you're preaching to the choir. I'd love to perhaps close with what is your vision of the new American dream? Hmm.

[50:40] Diania Merriam: I see it as, and it's, if you look at kind of some of the stuff I wrote on my website, I have this line that the American dream originated as an ideal where each person can pursue his or her own individual idea of happiness, right? It's you creating your own idea of happiness and it's kind of devolved into this, you know, materialistic consumerist culture. But I imagine it as, you know, we're reclaiming the right of the original American dream and for me, it's going to look very different than someone else. Like, I, I have friends that are digital nomads or who travel around the country in an RV and do that kind of stuff. And that looks amazing. That is their unique picture of what they really want to do with their time.

I actually really enjoy having a home base. I don't really want to be a digital nomad. Right?

[51:34] Paul: You want to be in Cincy with your dog?

[51:36] Diania Merriam: That's right. Because he's the best dog ever. So yeah, I mean, it— my American dream looks very different than someone else's American dream. But having the the resources and the creativity to pursue it, no matter what it looks like. And that, that to me is, is a worthy pursuit. And my vision of my American dream is constantly changing.

I think one of the things that I'm learning is that we, you know, you read a lot of stuff, I read a lot of personal development books, and it's like, go after your passion, go after your goal, go go do the thing you've always wanted to do. And what I'm learning is that maybe what I think I want, I actually, I go out and I go pursue that thing. And maybe that's not actually what I want. So like, for example, I've always thought that I wanted to sing. And so growing up, I would like, I would have all these fantasies in my mind of like standing on a stage and like singing really well. And so one of my goals when I got back from the Camino is to take singing lessons.

And I just kind of had it in my mind, had it in my mind, reached out to a couple people, wasn't really going anywhere. Then one day I'm walking the dog and I pass a School of Rock opened on the corner of like where my house is. And it's, it's a franchise where a lot of people think it's for kids, but they have an adult program. And so I was like a sign from the universe, like you said you wanted to sing. Here's, here's the School of Rock, so go sing. And so I signed up for a 4-month program where I had a band practice once a week, I had singing lessons once a week.

I worked for 4 months to sing 7 songs in front of 100 people. This is what I really thought that I wanted to do. And as I stood up on that stage, and I did my best, I really put my best effort in, everyone thought I sounded great. Okay, I can sing, that's nice. But I didn't feel the way that I thought I would feel if I was doing that. But because I tried, I can now put it away.

Like, okay, I'm not going to be 80 years old thinking I could have been a singer. No, I tried to do it. I'm happy that I tried. And now I can put that away because that's, that's actually not what I want. So, so I think you kind of have to experiment with the things you think you want and see to see if it passed the test. I mean, even with this conference, I thought I really want to do this conference.

And, you know, I went through months of like depression and anxiety and another identity crisis and, you know, struggling with the uncertainty of it and why the hell am I doing this? And, you know, I went through a really, really hard time trying to do this. But conversations like this remind me of like why I wanted it for the first place. So I appreciate you reaching out It's me again. But, but yeah, I think that my American dream is to have the ability, the time, the resources, the mental bandwidth to constantly be testing these things that I think I want. And I think it's a lifelong journey.

I don't think you come to a destination of, you know, this is what I'm passionate about. This is why I want to explore. It's just a constant experiment.

[54:56] Paul: I love that. The freedom to define your own dreams and the freedom to change your mind.

[55:02] Diania Merriam: Yes. Yes. You said it much more succinctly than I did. I had to ramble on for about 10 minutes to get to that one point. Yeah.

[55:12] Paul: Now everyone wants to know where they can buy tickets. You told them before, but maybe just repeat it again, other places to find you.

[55:19] Diania Merriam: Absolutely. Yeah. So EconomeConference.com is where you'll find the most information about the conference. We also have a Facebook page, so look for Econome Conference on Facebook, and then we have a group on Facebook called Fueling the Fire. And I really encourage you to join that because I put funny posts up there. And also, oh, as we're planning out like attendee-led meetups and other— I think we're going to do like a pub crawl and like a hike, maybe even a little tour around Cincinnati, learn some history and why I love this city so much.

But we're trying to plan out those kinds of things surrounding the actual event, and we're going to be posting that stuff on Facebook. So definitely join the group. And then you can also find me on Instagram @economicon.