#113 Beyond Hustle Culture & Helping Creators Make Money - Justin Moore from Creator Wizard (Pathless Path Podcast)

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I'm talking with my friend Justin Moore. Instead of starting with his credentials, I would describe you as just basically showing up in the creator world with this infectious energy. And I think what makes you successful is that you seem to get a hell of a kick out of just seeing others succeed and seeing them find their, their way in these weird worlds we're operating in. So I think that's what makes you stand out the most in my eyes.

And you've been doing this full-time for at least 7 years, longer part-time. We have some similar history in terms of like going to business school and all that. Maybe we'll dive into that. That, but, um, you're currently running Creator Wizard, which teaches people like me how to actually make money from doing podcasts like this by landing brand deals. Um, welcome to the podcast, Justin.

[02:05] Creator Wizard: Thanks for having me, Paul Millerd. This has been a long time coming, so I'm stoked that, uh, we're having this conversation.

[02:11] Paul: Fantastic. So I start all my updated versions of the podcast with, uh, after the rebrand to The Pathless Path with the same sort of question, which is what are some of the scripts or stories you grew up with related to work? Oftentimes these are things our parents tell us, things we absorb from just our broader societal soup and different things like that. But what were some of the stories about what you're supposed to do once you quote unquote grow up that you grew up with?

[02:45] Creator Wizard: Yeah, so the household that I grew up in was solidly middle class. My dad is an engineer by background, worked in computers for as long as I can remember. My mom has her master's in public health, so she's been a registered dietitian for many years. So both of them had advanced degrees and saw them work my whole life. And then there was this very interesting transition where they broke out as entrepreneurs, um, in when I was younger. So they bought, they eventually, uh, came to own 3 Supercuts franchises.

So haircutting, you know, haircutting salons. Yeah. Um, and so that, um, took over our family's life basically. It was like, you know, um, they were at that time, like now thinking back, you know, they were kind of the same age as I am now, like even a little bit younger. To have owned, you know, they owned these businesses, they were running them, they had personnel, they had staff, they had all the hairdressers and everything. Um, and so, uh, I very much got ahead, you know, my sister and I, we very much had a front seat to, uh, the stress of what, uh, being an entrepreneur is from a very early age.

Um, it did not end well actually, but, uh, in terms of like the business, uh, there was like a it's a long story, but it was a big lawsuit and, and, uh, the businesses, all of them had to ultimately shutter, but, um, like related to the employees and the union and all that stuff. So it was, it was crazy, but, um, it very much like, um, and then after that saw, you know, my parents have been successful doing, doing, you know, kind of having their own small businesses, consulting type by type ideas. Um, but I think I got caught with the entrepreneurial bug very early because I, Uh, always was interested in making money. Like I remember when I was in young, probably 6 or 7, maybe 8. Like my, my son Liam is 8 now. And that's around what age I was when I started having car washes on the weekend.

I would go out to the main street at my, at my, where we lived. And I would, I, you know, we had this like, um, uh, my mom, like for 2 years was a realtor. So she, she had gotten those A-frames for like open houses. And so. She didn't use it anymore because she wasn't a realtor anymore. But I used to just slap a garage sale sign on it, put it on our main drag, and I would make lots of money and I would recruit my classmates from grade school to like help me wash cars.

And it was like, I don't even know how my parents let me do that at that young of an age. Like, it's crazy to think about that, right? But I was doing that. I had such a fun time doing that. I've done all sorts of harebrained schemes throughout my life, like, you know, but it was all solidly around entrepreneurship and like kind of forging your own path. And so when I was faced with the prospect of, um, going to college and deciding what my career path was going to be, um, I was 100% sure that I was going to be a professional musician.

That was, that was throughout growing up. That was like a whole probably other chapter is like, I have been composing music for a very, very long time. Hundreds of songs, piano, guitar, singing. I'm classically trained in opera, operatic singing, like you name it, right? Um, and maybe on the B-side of this podcast, I can do a couple bars, but, uh, you can let it rip now if you're excited. Okay.

All right. I wasn't, I didn't do any warmups, but let me, let me just like, let me sing a song right now. Okay. I don't know. I didn't, I didn't prepare my, my microphone for, for doing this, but let me, let me see. Okay.

That's pretty good for not warming up.

[06:40] Paul: Wow. That was amazing. I didn't know that. You didn't think I would be breaking out with some Italian there, did you? No, it's beautiful. That's, uh, I love it.

[06:51] Creator Wizard: Music. So, so music. I thought it was going to be music. And so my, uh, my major. Crossroads when I was applying to school was, am I going to go to school for music or am I going to go to school for engineering, which is what my dad really wanted me to do. And so, um, bless his heart, like, you know, he only had the best in mind for me, but like, we had so many like conflicts about this, like towards the end of my high school.

And he ultimately, I did decide, I did get into the UC Santa Barbara School of Music and I got into the UCLA School of Engineering. And so that was the decision. And so I, I ultimately did choose to go down the more traditional route of, you know, having the fallback plan and like, you know, if I wanted to pursue music in LA, that was my logic is like, you know, it's a hub for music and I can still pursue my stuff while I have the backup plan. Um, and so, uh, as all, as these things interestingly happen, I graduated right before the Great Recession and thankfully I had a job. And so, you know, I didn't end up being a, being a full-time musician, obviously. Um, but it was like my hope, my.

Um, it's that, it's that thing you talk about a lot, which is just like we have these creative and artistic ambitions growing up. Um, but then somehow as we get closer to having to make a decision about what we're going to do for our life, we always seem to kind of lock into the traditional route and that, and I, I'm not an exception. Um, I am finding my way back to that now, but, um, it's quite interesting.

[08:21] Paul: Yeah, it's, I think I graduated in '07 and The interesting thing was it was right before the recession, so the economy was actually really good.

[08:32] Creator Wizard: Yeah, same for me. Yeah, yeah.

[08:35] Paul: There were like several job offers. Things seemed to be like booming. And I was— I wasn't even aware like you, you had the music going and you knew about that. I didn't even notice the things I was doing, like writing and fun projects on the side and creating and screwing around on the internet. Just like I was totally absorbed with the idea that like I did engineering in college the same because it's like, oh, that's just— you're good at math, you're smart. That's how you make sure you make a good salary.

And that's the most important thing in life. The thing was like, I just didn't really think about like what that meant, that, oh, I might actually have to like do that for the rest of my life. So yeah. What did that feel like? Did you feel like you were like letting go a part of you, the music part, when you went down the engineering route?

[09:29] Creator Wizard: So I still played music quite a bit in college. In fact, I formed a duo with my friend Nick and we were called Nick and Justin and we had a, we released an entire instrumental guitar, uh, album together while we were in college recorded in my dorm room, by the way. Um, and you know, it was, uh, very much something I was trying to, you know, pursue on the side, um, you know, while I was like trying to balance my, juggle my engineering curriculum and everything. Um, but, you know, for a long time, I, whenever I would listen to my old music that I had composed or think about how much I used to play music when I was, you know, doing my engineering stuff, I used to get very wistful. Uh, I used to get very nostalgic and sad a little bit, you know, thinking like, Man, you know, I miss that. I miss getting back to that.

And then somehow this really interesting shift happened where it was like, I stopped, like, I started really enjoying these other things that I was doing more than I missed the music. And, and so it was like, like now I think back on it and, and, you know, I listen to my music and I don't get sad. I just get, I really, really enjoy it. Right. And so, um, for a long time, I thought I was going to regret it forever. A long time.

I was sad anytime I thought about it. But as I have found other new interests in life beyond music that also make me really happy, um, I think that's allowed me to kind of let that part of my past go and be happy for the things in my life now.

[10:57] Paul: Yeah. Do you, do you sense that? I mean, even part of what you're doing is play at heart, right? You're, you're organizing people, you're bringing people together, you're creating things online. Like in a sense that is similar to the creative act of creating music, right? Do you sense that you still get to express a lot of that part of you now?

[11:18] Creator Wizard: You know, I think that early on, um, I don't— I've never really talked about this, but like music for me early on was an outlet for some of the emotional things that I was going through as a kid, uh, because my parents ultimately, going back to the whole, uh, demise of the business, that that was, that amongst other things led to them ultimately separating. Um, and music was always my outlet to like express how I was, the stuff, the feelings that I was going through as a kid. My parents got divorced when I was 12. Um, and so when I look at the other creative things that I am pursuing in my life now, I don't assign them the same weight, I guess, where it's like, I, I don't, I, I feel unburdened from feeling as though these, I need to do these things to help me, um, express myself, express this trauma that I'm feeling or this, this, uh, emotion that I'm feeling now.

Now it's so much more awesome. And the reason why I love it so much more, I think, than I ever did music. I mean, I love music, but like, now it's like, it's 100% positive, if that makes sense. So it's not saddled with the baggage of like my youth. Now it's, I get to do these things and I just absolutely love it. There's like no downsides.

I don't feel like a weight on my shoulders at all when I do this thing. So it's a really weird dichotomy, I guess.

[12:38] Paul: Yeah. So definitely want to keep exploring that. Want to give the listeners a little background though on some of yours, some of your story. So I first became aware of you probably in the last couple of years when you started doing a lot of the creator stuff. But you have a whole world you've been hanging out in the YouTube world. How did you go from like manufacturing engineer in the biomedical space to like MBA student to like having a massive YouTube channel?

[13:09] Creator Wizard: Yeah, man. So the quick story is that like it was definitely not intentional. It was a very wind and circuit winding and circuitous journey. The quick story is that, you know, I met my, at the time, girlfriend April. In college when I was at UCLA and she was going to Cal State Long Beach down in L.A. and we met on Yahoo!

Personals, by the way. Wow. Yeah, this was early days of Yahoo! Personals. Like people, we were— I was 20 and she was 21 and no one that age was using online dating 16 years ago, which is when we met. And so every single time that we would told people that we met on Yahoo!

Personals, they would be like, Are you sure he's not a murderer? Like, like, are you sure? Are you sure? Cause like, no, like that was very much not a thing. Um, the story of this is actually kind of funny. Like, um, Yahoo actually emailed me her profile.

I was, I did not find her. I was like, I got, you know, I was just like, like disgruntled with the, I was very much not a partier in college. I really didn't like drinking or going to parties or anything like that. And so I felt like all the people that I was surrounded with they just kind of felt like weren't my people, I guess. And so I sought out— I was— I always wanted to just like connect with my life partner. I never wanted to like date around.

I was never— it was always like this person has to get me closer to like finding my life partner. That's— that was the way I always looked at dating. And I never wanted to just like play around, mess around. And so I, I guess that was why I signed up for Yahoo Personals and like searched around. But then, you know, realized there's no one else young on here. Like, what am I doing?

Right? And then really didn't look. And then Yahoo actually emailed me her profile one day. One day and said, hey, we think based on your, like, criteria or whatever, because you have to fill out a questionnaire, we think this girl would be good for you. And I opened the profile and I told my roommate Sean at the time, I'm going to marry this woman. Wow.

Based on— I hadn't even interacted with her. And right then I signed up. I paid $24.95 to get to be able to contact her because that was like what you had to do at that time. Uh, you could view profiles, but you couldn't message anyone. And so I messaged her and she responded like very quickly and, um, kind of the rest is history. You know, we started talking a bunch and ultimately met up.

And, and so, um, you know, once we, uh, graduated and, um, you know, actually ultimately moved in together and everything, YouTube, you know, YouTube started around 2005, 2006 timeframe. So this is again, 2009, 2010 when we first met. Uh, and so YouTube had been around for a couple of years. And, um, I told April, like, she has this beautiful, warm, lovely personality. And I always told her, like, you should check out YouTube. This is cool.

There's like some people doing some funny stuff on here. She had never watched a YouTube video in her life. And I said, no, like, she's like, isn't it just like cat videos? I was like, no, there's like cool stuff on here, right? Like early days of comedy and just like, you know, there was the early beauty gurus also like Michelle Phan and like a lot of, you know, starting to do stuff on there. And so I said, check, take a look at this.

This is really cool. She, she started getting really into it and then she started watching more and more and more. And I kept saying, you should do this. Like, I feel like you'd be really good at this. And she was resistive. And so finally I convinced her, uh, to, uh, make a YouTube video, her very first one.

I helped her film it on our webcam and, uh, and edited it in Windows Movie Maker, which is what we had at the time. And it was terrible quality. It was like letterboxed, right? Cause YouTube didn't have widescreen at the time. And I remember the first video, it was this thing called the Bellabee, and it was a facial hair removal. It was a coil, the most craziest device you could think.

It's like a coil with handles and you bend it in a U and then you use it to remove facial hair. And it's so painful, dude. It is. So I don't know why anyone uses it, but that was her first video. She still has it on the channel. And it's so, it's so funny.

And like, that was, that was like it. From then on, she was like, I love this. Like, this is— she got to connect with a community of other people who were really interested in cosmetics and beauty products. And so on, um, people, I started doing, you know, like, uh, you know, people started asking about our relationship. Uh, so I started kind of being in some of the videos. People started getting really interested.

So we made a vlog channel together. We made a cooking channel together. You know, we've made hundreds and hundreds of videos over the years. And then really we started working with brands. That was like this really interesting development that came from, uh, to take a step back real quickly. Like we were not making money on any of this for years.

[17:48] Paul: Yeah. And people didn't think you could make money.

[17:50] Creator Wizard: No, no. There was no, there was no YouTube partner program. There was no AdSense that didn't exist in 2009. You know, so it was like the partner program, which was what it used to be called. Um, that was like something that, you know, she, she actually, April actually applied 3 times to that, got rejected. Like before she actually got accepted on the 3rd time.

So it was like, this has not been this like, you know, stratospheric, you know, meteoric rise to like we've had our trials and tribulations over the years of like trying to find our way. And so, yeah, so what happened first was that brands would reach out and say, hey, we want to send you free stuff. And she was like, yes, I have succeeded in life. I'm awesome. I'm getting free makeup, free beauty products, right? Because they're expensive, right?

We were young, like, you know, and then it was really the first brand that said, I will pay you money to talk about us. That we were just like, we looked at each other like, what is happening? Like, this is bizarre. And so she was a preschool teacher full-time. I was working in, you know, medical devices. Um, and so this was, became our side hustle.

Like, you know, we were, um, you know, I have so many other side hustles I've tried over the years in college and all that stuff too. But like, this one is the first one that became like, wow, this seems really interesting. Like, this is, um, and so it became this kind of dynamic where we would like go to our 9 to 5 and then we would come home and like 5 to 10, we would be hustling on YouTube. And, uh, and so this was the way it was for years, years and years and years where it was like this side hustle, this double life that we were living. And so it wasn't, you know, we were able to, uh, ultimately, and then, you know, my wife got pregnant and then things really blew up for our channels and everything because everyone was so excited about the pregnancy journey. And so, you know, we were ultimately able to make, you know, kind of do this whole thing full-time.

Um, and there's other things we can explore ultimately, but like, yeah, I mean, this is, this has been our journey is like, you know, kind of becoming creators somehow, not intentionally. Um, and it kind of, uh, just turning into this amazing, uh, new life and livelihood for us.

[19:52] Paul: Yeah, I've, I've seen you talk about this in other places, but, um, I mean, this is something I face is that people make fun of me all the time. Oh, you don't have a real job. You're not really doing these things. I imagine it would, there was not more support in 2011 or after that? What, I mean, were some of the things people said?

[20:15] Creator Wizard: Um, so not only, not only were all of our friends and family had no idea what we were doing or that you could even make money. Like every time we would say, people would always poke at it with a stick. Like it's a novelty. Like, oh, this newfangled YouTube thing. Like, how are you making money doing this? Right?

Like that was always the, The disposition of people when they were, whenever they would ask us about what we're doing online, it was never like, oh, this is really cool. Like, congratulate. It's not like if someone opened like an ice cream shop, like people, like, that's like a thing people could like understand. Like, oh, you're running a small business. Like all this stuff. It was like the idea of like making money, uploading videos on the internet.

Um, people just didn't get it. They, you know, were kind of put their guard up and just somehow it was like, it was not that it was scammy, but it was like somehow like too good to be true, I guess is the is how it felt to most people whenever they would ask us about it. So yeah, the same questions around, uh, you know, when are you going to get a real job? Or like, when are you going to, you know, actually, so for us, like we had the job, we had the 9 to 5 traditional job. Um, my wife did quit prior to me. So she went full-time, you know, 1 or 2 or 3 years prior to me doing it because I, you know, we kept one of the full-time salaries and then she was able to kind of go full, full-time on it.

Um, but it was like, even then, you know, it was just like, And even when I did ultimately quit, it was like, what? You're quitting a 9 to— you're quitting a 6-figure medical device job to go be a YouTuber in 2014? Yeah. What about the health benefits? What about the 401k? What about the yada, yada, yada?

Right. And my response to that at the time and still is that everyone looks at 9 to 5 jobs as this like, oh, it's safety net, right? Or it's the, it's the safe option, but like, what have we just learned? In not only the Great Recession, but also in the wake of the potential recession that we're in or whatever, or entering. It does not matter how much, how many late hours you put in, how much extra work you do. When push comes to shove and things, the outlook for the company doesn't look promising, you will be made redundant.

End of story. Right? And so when you're a creator, it's actually I believe a much easier thing to not only diversify your revenue streams, but you have a much longer time span to do something about it if you think things are not going so well. So for the example of YouTube, like it's not like your income stream is just going to go to zero overnight, like it would in a 9 to 5 job if you get fired, right? Or yeah, maybe if you get demonetized, but that's a separate story. But like if you, if your views start going down or people are not watching as much, or like there are things that you can do, you can change up your approach, you can try other revenue streams, you can do, you know, merchandise, digital products, you can do courses and coaching and yada, yada, yada.

Right. And so, like, I have always looked at being in control of your own destiny as a creator to be the safer option because it's like you're not relying on just a single income source for, for your livelihood. And then just the other real quick thing I want to mention is that this whole thing about being ridiculed about being a creator or doing this whole thing on the internet is that our followers didn't understand it either. They would all like constantly in the, in the comment sections of our YouTube videos. So what's your job? Like, what do you, what do you do?

Like, what, what do you do? Like, and we would just say we're creators. This is what, like, we're creators. We, we make, this is what we do. And just for years, Paul, I'm not joking, man. They, they would just continue to ask this.

And so, um, it's changed a lot now and we could talk about that, but like, you know, we just felt like we were outliers for the longest time that just like no one gets it. Like, but we're just kind of, we're going to blaze this trail and see where it takes us.

[24:00] Paul: Yeah. When, when did people in your life start to get curious about your path? Like, the thing I've noticed is it's been way slower than I imagined. Some people are still like, don't ask me anything or don't say anything or like borderline hostile. Handful of people are like asking me tons of questions. They're like, oh, what about this?

What about that? How do I think about— how do I integrate this mindset into my job? And those are some of my favorite people, actually. Yeah. When did people start getting curious?

[24:32] Creator Wizard: I would say that most people are curious when they are in their own life transitions. That's been my experience. So, so people either are looking for a new job or they're disgruntled and not happy with their current job. Or they're trying to figure out like what their next step is. Maybe like you said, they went to school for something, they got the job and it's not what they thought it would be, or it was something there, some sort of, maybe not existential crisis, but some sort of like, you know, mile marker in their life. And they're trying to figure out what's next.

And so they look at us, you know, April and Justin over here on this island where we're kind of, you know, uh, doing our own thing and kind of figuring it all out and being entrepreneurs and incorporating and getting a bookkeeper and like all this stuff we had to figure figure out on our own as like, let me go get some insight from people who kind of are in control of their own destiny. Right. And so a lot of the counseling and the mentorship that I've done for my circle and my family and friends and stuff over the years has been related to kind of helping people find their path. Because, um, I think that when you're the traditional career trajectory that most of us are, you know, think about, um, it's like when you are an entrepreneur and you're doing it on your own, there's no, like, there's no traditional path. Like you have to invent your own goals, right?

You have to invent what you want your future to look like, right? And so, and so it's like for a lot of people that's difficult because they need to be assigned those goals by others. Right. And so it's difficult for, for, you know, to figure out how to like kind of blaze your own trail. And so That's been my experience is like people typically do ask more questions when they themselves are trying to figure out their own lives.

[26:17] Paul: The thing that, the thing that really sent me off in a curiosity rabbit hole in terms of exploring paths was my first year being self-employed. I started writing about the experience and the same thing happened to me. People started coming to me and looking for guidance, wisdom, anything that would help them in their path. But those people were so ashamed. To talk about those things outside of talking with it with people like me. And part of why I want to write about these things is to like make it more comfortable that like everyone's thinking about these things.

We're all just pretending like everything is going smoothly, like there's this linear line. Like, we can stop pretending now, man.

[26:56] Creator Wizard: I, I'm so, I'm so— that's why I just absolutely love your work and what you were trying to do for this world, because it's like you're saying, like, I feel like that's, that's the case with so many things in life. Like we look at ourselves like we're the outlier or that we're weird or, you know, so many different things related to like our personalities as people, right? Our idiosyncrasies. And most of the time it's like, we're just the same. Like we're all pretty similar. We all just want to be happy and we all just want to have love and friendship and like, you know, it's not complicated.

Right. And so I feel like we beat ourselves up so much that we're not conforming to the expectations of others or the people in their lives of what— and when in reality, when we— if we could just be honest with them and say, hey, you know what, like, I don't really want to do this anymore, or I don't want to, you know, this is not really making me happy. Like, I think a lot of people would be surprised at how supportive people in their family might be when you're honest with them, you know. And oh wow, I didn't, I didn't realize you hated your job, or I didn't realize, yada yada yada. Yeah, and I get it. Like, sometimes there's a lot of, you know, people who have grow up in families who are like super strict and like, you know, if you do choose to not go down the traditional path, you'll be, you know, shunned or whatever.

So I get it. I'm not trying to minimize that. But I just on a general note, I think a lot of people are more accepting than I think generally that we realize.

[28:08] Paul: Yeah. And it surprised me the people who have reached out to me. They're not the people I would have predicted. I thought some people were more traditional than they really were. And then they are like, oh, let me tell you about what I've really been thinking, some of the things I've secretly done over the years. And that's been really cool.

Would love to dive in around your relationship to work. So you sent me some really interesting messages and you said you got really caught up in hustle culture, as you'd call it. And I mean, that makes sense. I think, especially when you find something you're really enjoying, you and April, like you guys probably went all in on that. Like, what was that like at the beginning? And when did that turn into something that maybe was a little different?

[29:03] Creator Wizard: Man, I mean, in the early days of YouTube in particular, um, I was actually talking with April about this recently, like the reason that I wear an eye mask to sleep. Now, even today, is because in our early days of YouTube, right after April had quit her job, she and I had to go, I had to go to bed because I had to go to work the next day. She was up until 2, 3 in the morning every night engaging, commenting. At the time, YouTube had an inbox feature so you could actually send messages through YouTube, right? So like, this was the thing. This is how you grew your channel back then.

Was like networking and like, you know, hey, like, you know, you follow me, I'll follow you, I'll subscribe to your YouTube channel, you know, like, you know, being the first to comment on like a big person's video. So it's like near the top and like there's all these like little growth tactics, hacky things that people would do back in the day. But like she would be up 2 a.m. with the light on and I had to go to sleep. Right. So it's like that is a perfect anecdote of what our life was like for years and years and years of like trying to grow this thing.

And honestly, it was like trying to grow this thing so that it could replace our traditional income. So like the way we looked at it was like, we need to, we, we were very meticulous with how, how we planned to go full-time doing this. So, uh, the, the goal was essentially that I had to make my salary an incremental amount, like of my salary to completely replace my salary and then some. So like, and then another $10,000 on top of that before I felt comfortable quitting. That was what our, what our marker was.

[30:47] Paul: That's a lot of pressure.

[30:49] Creator Wizard: A lot of pressure, right? And that's why we were so hard on the hustling because we were like, okay, I'm going to replace my salary, but then we also need to have some cushion because what happens if it doesn't go right? What happens if it doesn't go according to plan? Right. And so, um, I quit my medical device job 6 weeks after my first son was born. So talk about like a nerve-wracking thing.

Uh, so I did technically get my medical device company to pay for the birth. So that was awesome. But, um, right after that, seriously, I took 6 weeks of paternity leave and then I went in and gave my 2 weeks notice. I was so, I was so like mortified of doing that, but who cares? It was fine. But, and they were so nice about it, but, um, they'll be fine.

They'll be fine. That's the point. They'll be fine. They'll be just fine. They're just fine. Like I'm not, it's not keeping me up at night, right?

I'm not losing sleep over this, but anyways, like, yeah, it was, it was So the hustle culture was very much something we felt we had no choice to do if we wanted to be, you know, be full-time creators and kind of be in control of our destiny.

[31:51] Paul: But where does that come from? Like, so I, it fascinates me because I didn't even think of having this for myself. Like, so I'm 5 years in. Um, I was making about $150 grand a year in my final year, but I haven't I didn't come close to that the first 3 years. I just like wanted to do something different. And I might come close to it this year, but I don't know where, like, where, where'd you come up with that?

Because I'm so fascinated with like how people, they take, they leave full-time employment, but they're often like creating these new metrics for themselves.

[32:27] Creator Wizard: So we love traveling. And so one of our metrics is like, we don't really want to like reduce our lifestyle and the things that we love, like eating and traveling. And so that was kind of the metric. It was like, let's just like, we, we've gotten used to a certain lifestyle, I guess, you know, in terms of where we're living and traveling and doing the things that we want. And so, uh, we just have to make that same thing happen if we want to keep, keep doing that. So we would, I would say we were not prepared to like start eating ramen every meal.

So we were not there. Right. Um, and, and so that is what drove, I think, a lot of the early hustle.

[33:03] Paul: Do you, do you think you wish you left earlier or was that good timing for you?

[33:08] Creator Wizard: I think that it became clear to us that the longer I spent in trying to go on this traditional career path, the larger the opportunity cost of not going full-time on the creator business. It was like, what if I could spend 60 hours a week, 100% on our business? Not just like doing this side hustle thing. Um, and, and frankly, it was like beginning to like wear on me, you know, it was like I was traveling, I was a product manager. So it was like I was traveling too. Um, and I, you know, it just, it just was not sustainable.

And so it was like faced with this decision where it's like, okay, either I keep going up the ladder, you know, of a medical device company, or I could kind of roll this dice and, you know, try this thing out. I remember distinctly having a conversation with my dad around this. And my dad is like my best friend. Like we, You know, I bless his heart, but he very much comes from this kind of traditional mindset. Um, and I remember having this conversation with him that he was concerned that if I, you know, quit the job, that there would be— I would ruin the trajectory of my professional career or like that there would be this boomer thing. Yeah.

That there, that there would be this gap in my resume. Right. So it's like, okay, if I try this for a year or two and it doesn't work out, and then I go into an interview and people say, well, what'd you do for the last year or two? Right? Um, and then, you know, but, and so that was like his logic and concern. And he's my dad.

I get it. He just, he wants me to be fine and okay. And like, I love him. Um, but it was like, I felt really compelled. I was like, you know what? Like, we're already starting to make pretty significant amounts of money doing this.

So it's not like I, it's not like we weren't making any money. It was like, it was like, I could see the path. Right. And so, so making the, the, the jump and being like, you know what, if it doesn't work out, I'll just I'll kind of just figure it out, right? But I got to try this, right? Otherwise I'm going to regret it.

[34:56] Paul: Yeah, there's— it's so common, the kind of people that take leaps. It's not that they don't see the costs about leaving. It's that they are filled with this, like, possibility. It's like, oh my gosh, what might happen? And that excitement is like what pulls you forward. The problem is you can't like transport that excitement to someone else.

You're like, oh, trust me. Like all these, they're like, what are you talking about? You don't really buy it.

[35:28] Creator Wizard: Well, to that point, I'm really glad you brought this up because I, I'm going to say this in like real, like, I swear, the nicest way possible.

[35:39] Paul: Okay.

[35:40] Creator Wizard: But I used to have this mindset when I was working a traditional job that it was always temporary for me. It was like, I'm not going to be here forever, like, but I'm doing this now and it's okay. But like, I would look around and there would be kind of like lifers in my job and like, and you know, they, they worked there 20, 25 years and like, and I never got it. I always thought like, well, don't they want to like do more or like do something else or like do this thing? And I never understood it. And that was my ignorance, right?

Because I was always kind of the hustling and like trying to like do all this stuff. But it was like, it took me a long time to realize that like, like most people are totally happy going home at 5 PM, shutting the line between work and life and just like watching TV, hanging out. And like, I do not look down on those people at all. Like that is just as valid as the path that I'm on. Right. And so, but for a long time I didn't get it right.

And so I think that that's where it comes from is that a lot of people don't really get this kind of like trying to build something for yourself. Like they're totally fine just with the life they have. And they, and so you are the weird one to them because it's like, I just, they can't comprehend it. And so we're just trying, we're like kind of two ships passing in the night. It's just like, we just don't understand each other sometimes. And like, I, I gave up trying to like justify it or explain it because it's just too different.

[37:04] Paul: I'm, I'm laughing because I was that ignorant person too. I'd go to people like, oh, what about this job? You could like switch to this career and like make this great. And they'd be totally uninterested. And like, I would be like, well, I just got to get them interested. It's like, oh wait, I'm the weirdo.

And I think that's been a great thing about this current path is I can basically just befriend people like you and we can just talk like this is totally normal. Right. So, man, so you sent me this line. If you haven't found the stuff that matters to you, it's blasphemy to slow down. What does that mean to you?

[37:49] Creator Wizard: If you haven't— this is— read that again to me. I do not remember sending this to you, so I need to analyze my own thoughts again. This must have been in one of my, like, manic DMs to you or something.

[38:00] Paul: Yeah, if you haven't found the stuff that matters to you, it's blasphemy to slow down. I think you were talking about how, like, you were, like, in this, like, hustle mindset that you need to keep keep going. You need to keep working.

[38:11] Creator Wizard: Oh, yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. I get it now.

Yes. So, so, uh, I thought that was phrased as if I believe that now, cause I definitely don't. Um, no, but like, yeah, that's how I felt when I was in this mindset where it was just like, I'm not really sure where this is going to take me, but I'm seeing the, you know, the traction I'm seeing all this stuff. And so if I slow down, I'm not going to figure it out because whatever I'm doing is working. And so if I stopped doing that, then it's going to stop working. That was, that was my logic.

For the longest, longest time. And it's actually, it's funny because I actually have been going through this even, even the last, you know, 6, 12 months or so. Um, because, you know, I teach a course called Brand Deal Wizard where I teach creators how to find, uh, and negotiate brand partnerships. Um, and the trajectory of it has been insane. So like I, my very first beta had 3 people in it, 3 paying creators, right? And my last one had 58.

And so it's not a cheap course. It's, it's for the next cohort, it's going to be $3,000. So, um, it's a, significant investment. Um, but I'm now faced with the decision and the last cohort I ran was extremely stressful. Like you can imagine like having 58 and it's, it's like me and like one other person or, and my assistant. So it's like, it's not like I have a team of 10 people like proctoring this and like all this stuff.

It's like, it's, it's, we don't have a big team. Right. And so it was very, very stressful. And so I'm now faced with this decision of like, Okay, well, I don't know if I can do that again, and it's very possible that I could have 100 people next time, right? I am increasing the investment, so it's like potentially going to go down and that's okay. But it's like I make— I'm now thinking about this kind of whole, uh, intentional life design stuff because it's like I was talking with my wife and she basically said to me, she had a very candid conversation with me and she said like, Like, I don't want our lifestyle.

Like, you don't need to build this like 50-person company. You don't need to be making $10 million. Like you, you, we could just be, our marginal level of happiness has not increased in the last like 5, 6 years, even though we've made more and more and more and more money. It's not like we're spending more and more and more. It's just like we're traveling and we're eating out and we're doing all the same normal stuff that we did before and our happiness level has been the same. Basically the same.

We're just happy. Right? And so I have, I feel as though I'm now faced with this decision with Creator Wizard where it's like I have to intentionally make business decisions to design the life and the business that I want because it's so much more, it, it sounds so much more awesome to me to like cap enrollment. I'm gonna say, okay, 50 people, it's gonna be 3 grand or whatever a seat. I'm gonna run this 3 times a year, $450K. There's other, you know, products and things that I'm running, but like, that sounds like an awesome life.

I don't need a 25-person company. I don't need 15 employees, you know, who are reporting to me and like, I'm all this stuff. I did that. I ran an agency. That's a whole nother discussion. And so I did that and I thought that that's what I wanted.

Um, but like, it's a, it's a very weird feeling now because it's like, I'm feeling I'm having to like kind of pump the brakes a little bit. and make some choices that are perhaps contrary to what others might.

[41:27] Paul: Yeah. And are you going to do that?

[41:31] Creator Wizard: Uh, I think so. Yeah. This next cohort, I think it's, I'm going to cap it at 50 and it's going to be, it was $2,000 for the investment last time and we're doubling it to $3,000 this time. Um, for a variety of reasons, infrastructure related, there's going to be more sessions and, um, I'm actually, so, okay, let's talk about this. This is actually very interesting. So going back to my mission, I have a mission to help creators big and small land a million sponsorships by 2032.

So 10 years. Um, and that's very intentionally not a million creators, right? Because if I wanted to help a million creators, I would make my course $50. But that's not my goal. My goal, it's so much more exciting to me to help one creator get 100 sponsorships.

[42:08] Paul: Yeah.

[42:09] Creator Wizard: Right? And so that's another north star that I have that will help me make decisions for the things that I'm doing in my business. And so another major pivot that we're making for this next cohort, which will be cohort number 7. Is previously I had bit my, my kind of avatar for my students has been, uh, creators with 10,000 to 150,000 followers on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. That's my audience. And that's who I'm catering to with this course.

And because I wanted to like, you know, pick a niche, make it sure it was like really specific, really useful to the people who, who went through it. But this really interesting thing started happening was that all of these other types of creators started coming out of the woodwork. Podcasters, newsletter authors, bloggers, like all these people who, you know, I don't like— I, they're not an influencer. They're like, you know, more like a traditional creator. Um, and I, and they'd say, I really want to take your course, but on the sales page, you're telling me it's not for me. You're saying that it's like for YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, this type of thing, but I really want to take it.

Can I still take it? And I, and I, I would say, I would be very clear. I would say 75% of the course will be very useful for you. Week 1, 2, and 4. Week 3 is all about social media campaigns. And so you have my blessing, you can take it, but I just want you to like know this, right?

And so a lot of people have signed up and gotten a lot of value out of it. And so, um, I, this has happened so many times and I've gotten hired for one-on-one consulting from a lot of these non-traditional creators so many times that I have had this big mindset shift recently that, um, I am now going to be— this next cohort will be the most inclusive cohort ever. And I am now shifting it to be— to serve both creators who have built their business on owned platforms, podcast, newsletter, right? Uh, versus social platforms.

[43:59] Paul: Wow.

[44:00] Creator Wizard: Yeah. Both, both have built businesses this way and a lot have both, right? And my sponsorship frameworks and the strategies that I teach are universal. And so my, my copywriter, actually my copywriter for my, my, my course said to this to me, this is what changed changed my mind. She said, you are depriving a whole lot of people from your expertise for no reason. And once I got goosebumps when she said that to me, and I was like, you know what, I'm coming at that.

If I'm coming at this from a place of service, like, why am I doing this? This makes no sense. And so, yeah, it's a big change. It's a big decision. There's lots of structural things we're going to be changing about the program. But, um, yeah, that's what I love about this, man.

It's just like, there's so many fun and exciting new things that we get to try being an entrepreneur that I just wouldn't in a normal job.

I need to, I need to clip this testimonial, put it on my sales page. No, but, but, you know, the other thing too is that like about that kind of unlock, like having these like, like really intimate conversations with people and rather than just being like, how many people can I get enrolled in? Like, you know, all this stuff like that does not excite me at all, dude. Like, I, I think it comes down to like, I truly have an abundance mindset. With this stuff. Like so many people, they'll see someone else get a, like doing well or getting a sponsorship or something and they'd go get mad.

They're just like that, that's like, how dare they? That's my dream brand. Like they don't even use that brand, like this type of thing. And, um, there's so many reasons why that is so wrong. Number one, when a brand partners with someone else, the first thing that they're going to do afterwards is think, I need to find 20 other people just like this person.

[46:34] Paul: Yeah, exactly.

[46:34] Creator Wizard: Because every brand has marketing objectives. They have to find new customers. So just because they partnered with someone else, and not only that, that is a great indicator that that brand is investing into your niche. So they have dollars that they're allocating to partner with, with people like that. And so, um, this scarcity mindset, there's, there's gonna be $15 billion poured into the influencer marketing space by the end of 2022. And so it's just like this mindset of scarcity is simply not required.

And so I bring that same level of energy and that emotion to all my interactions with people because like, I, I just want to see people win. I want to see people. I want people. I did a newsletter, uh, last week around how our relationship with money holds us back.

[47:17] Paul: Oh yeah.

[47:18] Creator Wizard: Because how we were raised, especially our upbringing, you know, whether if money was like taboo to discuss or tight or things like that, somehow like a lot of us emerged from our youth thinking that money was evil, honestly. And so like, as like we're now that we're, you know, for a lot of people who are on non-traditional career paths or freelancers or creators or whatever, entrepreneurs, um, like money is not evil. Money allows you to run your business, to feed your family, to give back, to, to be charitable, to, to make more art, to be more creative. Right. Um, and so like money is a tool to allow you to do that. And so I bring that mindset when I teach people is like, you know, you have to shed this relationship, this toxic dynamic that you feel with money because it allows you to do these amazing things.

[48:02] Paul: That's such a common script. Um, and it's this, it holds so many people back. And one thing I've kind of tapped into on my current path is seeing generosity as a practice, uh, as basically a skill you need to practice. We sort of short circuit this in society by donating to like charities, because that's like what everyone else does. In my mind, like one of my hot takes is like, that's just like getting a full-time job and like putting on a suit because other people do. Actually giving in a generous way is quite hard.

And even the things you're doing, like I think I showed up for one of your workshops, you had like 4 or 5 people and you showed up in such a genuine way. Like, and people can tell this, it's like, oh, he really cares. But it's like, where does it— and yeah, you can respond to that.

[49:01] Creator Wizard: It's so funny actually, because I, maybe you, I swear you must've just seen the tweet that I posted literally like 2 hours ago. Like I, I have done 3 talks this week. I did one right before this, the same talk. It's like a presentation plus Q&A. I've given it now probably 20 times, but this week I did it 3 times and I average between 5 and maybe 15 people showing up. These are like private creator communities that invite me to like give a presentation and talk about it.

Um, like I did one for vidIQ. That was what I did this morning. Right. So they're like that plugin that helps you like optimize your YouTube channel and they have a private community. And so I did this thing and I think maybe there was 10 people maybe on it, like 10 creators. Um, and like, this is how it's not hundreds.

This is how I have built my business over the last 2 years to educating creators. Like, it's just like, Slow, steady word of mouth, like being like people, like when they sense that, like feeling of like that you actually genuinely want to be there and show up. It's like, you know, that, that is what I think ultimately drives like results from a business perspective. But just again, like being a nice person like that, I, I, if one person showed up, I would have the same energy because it's like, that's one person's life that I can impact. I truly genuinely am being honest when I say that because it's just like, That person, like, I, like, okay, this is a great example. I had a one-on-one coaching client who, uh, is, I love talking about him.

He's like such a nice guy. His name is Paul. He has a podcast called The Green Industry Podcast. Okay. And Paul, Paul's podcast caters to people who have lawn care businesses. That is his podcast.

It is a daily podcast, Paul. Okay. All right. So you're, you're, you're fellow Paul, right? And. He has brands beating down his door to sponsor him because he is the guy that everyone follows about, you know, hedge trimmers and lawn mowers and like all the tools that you need to run your landscaping business and all this stuff.

Right. And so I've done multiple calls with him now and I've, I have like helped him kind of shepherd him along this journey. And I literally just got an email from him about an hour ago saying that he had just— one thing I teach is how to provide post-campaign reports. After a partnership so that you can illustrate, you know, you do a postmortem, right? You're a management consultant. You get this, right?

You talk about what went well. You talk about opportunities for the next partnership or, you know, project or whatever. And he literally just emailed me and said, I sent the post-campaign report and now I need to hire you again because now they want to work with me again. Right? So I need to propose— I need to propose something. Right?

And so it's just like, that makes me so happy. Like, now I'm so excited. I get to go back on this call with this guy, like, super niche. Like, we get to design this thing. He's, he's making income. He's having fun.

He's living living his dream. And so it's just like, that is the dream that to me, I could do this from now until the day I die. Like, it's just so fun to me.

[51:54] Paul: I love that. Where does that come from though?

[51:58] Creator Wizard: Okay. Let's talk about this topic because this is interesting. My wife and I personally have had so much success throughout our career as creators. We've literally done over 500 sponsorships personally. I was looking at our QuickBooks software. Like we were literally, I think I just invoiced like number 510 or something.

Right? So it's like 500 times we've worked with like brands, right? And so we've had, we've made over $4 million. I'm like very transparent. We've talked about this, right? Um, we've had so much success that I now view it as like my duty to like teach the next generation.

And so it's interesting because I see this conversation happening a lot where it's just like you become really successful, right? A startup entrepreneur, founder, whatever. And then it's like they have the IPO, they have the liquidity event or whatever. And then now they like start the charitable organization and like now they're Now they're doing this, right?

[52:46] Paul: And it's like angel investor.

[52:48] Creator Wizard: Yeah, they do the angel investing and it's like, like, why can't you do that before you have found your own personal success? I've always like thought of this as like a very interesting topic because even I'm not immune from that. Like, I very much like look at that now as like what I'm doing is like as a result of like having so much success, like personally, but I'm not nowhere near like, you know, I didn't IPO or anything, but it's like we're fine. Like we'll be fine, right? But it's like I definitely felt compelled to get back, um, as like a duty. It wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go.

Now I'm making like a lot of money doing it. I didn't think I was going to, you know, when I, for a long time when I was making this content to educate people around brand partnerships, I was not making any money. Right. But now I am. And I think that's just the result of, of, of maybe that mindset of like not wanting it to be about money. But yeah, I don't know, man.

I think it's just like, I truly feel like I, I am responsible for the next generation.

[53:43] Paul: Speaking of the next generation, what, what do your kids say about, um, your paths? Like, how are you thinking about the scripts that you inevitably will pass down to them?

[53:55] Creator Wizard: Man. So a great example of how we are approaching raising our kids, uh, that's quite different, I think, than maybe a normal path is that, um, when I was in the 9-to-5 job and we were doing all that, we started a um, 529 account, 529(a) account, which is an educational savings, uh, investment vehicle that allows you to, you know, you get tax preferential treatment for money that you put into that. And then as long as it goes towards educational expenses, when the child comes of age, uh, it's like a tax shelter, right? And, um, we stopped contributing to that. And are now contributing to a fully liquid, basically cash-based investment vehicle, like Fidelity type, you know, type idea. And the reason is, is that my oldest son is 8.

I think higher education is going to look a lot different in 10 years when he goes to school. And so maybe we're going to take the money and if he wants to start a business, if he wants to use it to do something else. It's like a non-traditional path. Like, um, it feels scary saying that now, but like, I'd be completely hypocritical. We would be completely hypocritical if we just be like, go to college, do this thing, because it's like what we did as, as people, you know? Um, and so we very much, and it's like the other, the other thing too that I think is quite interesting about this is that our kids have been in our content since they were born, right?

So we've been, we were family vloggers. And so, you know, we shared our lives. Our life was our business. And so they have literally grown up knowing that this was how we made our income for our family. And so, um, I think that that's, you know, now it's like, it's very interesting because we are, you know, we've had to take, we've had to make different choices than other families because of that in terms of privacy. We've had privacy issues in our life in terms of of, you know, weirdos online and in real life and stuff like that.

So it's like, I don't like talking about it, but it's like, it's a, it can be a reality to being online. Um, and so, you know, our, whether in terms of like, uh, you know, where our kids are going to school or their daycare, all that stuff is like, you know, we have to be careful about things we share and like all that stuff. And so, you know, they have grown up in this life and they didn't choose it. Right. And so my wife and I have had long conversations about what, what does this look like in terms of like us taking a pause? On us as social media creators personally.

And so, yeah, one of the reasons why I'm, I'm also very excited about doing this other chapter of my life of educating people is that it has nothing to do with our family. Um, and it's all 100% related to just me and, and the advice that I can give to people. And so I think that, that, yeah, I'll be totally honest. Like, that's another reason why we're excited about growing this part of our business, um, which will allow our kids to just just, you know, grow up outside the public eye a little bit more.

[57:05] Paul: What would you say— so I write about this in my book as like the real work of your life. And I talk about the real work of your life is like basically the things you want to keep doing. It sounds like this generally is that work. But at the core, like, what is the work that if you don't do it, that's when you get restless? And this is something I find that like flips for people is like they shift from feeling restless if they aren't working to like actually feeling restless if they aren't doing this kind of work. Is this, does this fall into that bucket?

[57:39] Creator Wizard: So I was faced with this question recently, Paul, because, uh, I have had an acquisition offer for Creator Wizard. Um, and, uh, I can't really say much about it, but, um, I ultimately turned it down. I can say that. but I was faced with this idea, you know, there's a lot of creator economy startups right now and big businesses who are trying to become advocates for creators and have educational arms and all this stuff, right? So you can fill in the blanks, right? There's one of the big ones, right?

Um, and I had to be, I was faced with this decision of like, because what happens in that scenario? Well, I'll have probably an earn-out clause. I'll have to be there for a year or two or three or whatever. And, you know, kind of do that. And then it's like, after that, you know, my contract's over and they own the IP and, you know, the kind of the brand and all that stuff. And then, then what?

And I started to pull this thread, talked it over with my wife, thought about this, all this stuff. And like, I think I'd be pretty miserable, man, honestly. Like, I love what I do. I love helping people. Like, I cannot imagine doing anything other than what I'm doing right now. And the idea of getting some short-term payday, which may or may not set us for the rest of our lives.

Um, you know, like I'm, I'm, you know, traveling, like we have kids, like, you know, we have routines, we're sports, like I love that routine with the kids and everything too. So it's like, what do I love doing on a normal Tuesday at 11 AM, you know, in a norm, you know, the dead of the winter, like what is it that I love the most? That's my litmus test is like, you know, because that's most of life. Right? And, and to me, that, like, doing this is that. And so that's why I'm like, just kind of strapping myself to this rocket ship and I'm not letting go.

[59:26] Paul: I love it. What, what does rest mean to you now?

[59:32] Creator Wizard: I still struggle with this, Paul. Um, I have a really hard time doing nothing because I feel the guilt of not being productive. I still feel this to this day. It's not something that I, I literally I downloaded the Calm app, like, right after my cohort ended last, like, couple weeks ago or a month ago. And because I was so stressed out, dude, like, I, um, because it's also, it's like my cohort ended and it's like now I'm launching my next course and it's like busy, busy, busy, like, you know, doing the copy and the email marketing and like all this stuff and like that's launching in 3 weeks. And so it's like I do this to myself.

So it's like I have no one else to blame other than myself. But I have a really hard time on the weekends, like, because it's, because it's like, again, going back to this whole hustle idea, it's like It's just what we've always done. The line between our work and our life and our family has always been blurred. Um, and so yes, we, we do the one benefit. I'll be totally honest. It's like we can go on vacation whenever we want.

Like we just literally just got back from Hawaii like last week. Uh, and we were in the Bahamas earlier this summer. He went to Minnesota to visit family, rented a cabin. So it's like, it affords us an awesome life. And what I'm struggling with now is I'm pretty sure that even if we took our foot off the brake, we'd still be able to do all this stuff. But somehow in the back of my mind, it's like, I think to myself, like, like, we have to keep doing this if we want to keep doing this thing.

And so it's something I struggle with and I haven't figured it out yet.

[01:00:52] Paul: Honest answer. I appreciate that. A couple, a few rapid-fire questions for you. So do you have a path role model? So this is somebody that doesn't have to be doing something similar, but like somebody who's taken an interesting path in life that you look to and say, okay, they they made decisions I want to follow.

[01:01:14] Creator Wizard: That's always been a really big struggle for me, for us, actually, because especially in the early days, we had no one, very few people to look to, to model our, our business after or life after. Um, because there really frankly was not amongst the, we call ourselves like the OG YouTubers, right? There really wasn't that many people like doing this, especially, and, and an even smaller pool of people who are still doing it today. Right. And so, yeah, there's a lot of people who went kind of the, you know, we're going to build this big business or like a production company and hire other people. So there's people who went that route.

I, one of the routes that I went was I created an influencer marketing agency. So I helped other creators get deals. And so I have that perspective too. And so I built a business there. So it's like, um, a lot of it came from just like having no idea. Like there's no, I had no one to look like traditional entrepreneurs.

It's like not really, or small business owners, not really freelancers, not really. Um, so it was just like the people making the money on the interwebs, there was just like a very small pool of people, uh, doing it. And so even to this day, that's one of the reasons why, um, I have started seeking out like masterminds or other group coaching programs or other ways in which to surround myself with people who are kind of doing this similar thing. Because most of the time, honestly, dude, I have, I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing even to this day. Right. And so it's just like, and I feel like that's most people.

Right. And so, you know, yeah. So it's like, I crave that connection because it's like, I always, my, my, my rule of thumb is like, I try to get, um, like from every interaction, my goal is I just want to like, like try to either improve my life by 1% or improve someone else's life by 1%. And if that's like one sentence that someone said in an hour-long conversation on Zoom or something. Like, to me, that's worth it. Like, I'll give a great example.

I'll give a shout out to my new friend Matt Koval, who used to be the YouTube liaison. Um, he is now head of creators at Mighty Networks. And I just had a conversation with him yesterday, the day before. And it was just like a friendly, yeah, I've seen you around the interwebs, let's talk kind of thing. And he said something to me, like a kind of a throwaway comment at the end of our call. And he said, hey dude, you know, I really think you'd find value from doing this exercise called the perfect day where you literally.

Sit down with a piece of paper and you write in as much detail as you possibly can what your perfect day looks like. You wake up, what's the temperature? Who are you sleeping next to? What sheets are you wearing? What do you, what do you do right when you get out of bed? What do you do after that?

Who are you? You know, yada yada, the whole thing up until the very end. And you have, if you have a partner, you have your partner do it and then you compare notes. And to me, I was like, I'm going to do this. This is awesome. I love this.

Like, I need to think about this, right? And so it's like, that's just a great example of like the spice of connecting with people in life because I'd never heard of that before. And like, that to me is now going to measurably improve my life because I'm going to do that exercise. Right. So, um, yeah, I love it, man.

[01:04:05] Paul: Yeah. I resonate with that so much. I, um, I feel so lost when I'm doing what I'm doing. Like a lot of this kind of path is basically generating ideas that have never been done as you, the individual in your unique way. And then just saying, oh, might as well try it. And a lot of the source of that comes from just observing other people trying similar things and then remixing it.

[01:04:30] Creator Wizard: The one observation that I have of, um, people on the internet these days is I, I see a very big separation between the people who are generating new ideas versus curating ideas. Because there's a lot of people, especially on Twitter, there's a lot of people, you've seen them, it's like, oh, top, you know, 10 resources to like like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Or whatever, you know, these viral threads you see or something like that. Um, but I very rarely see original ideas coming from folks like that. And it's not a knock. I'm just saying like the, the things that always excite me, excites me at least, is that I, I believe if you do want to create a sustainable business for yourself as a creator or freelancer or entrepreneur, um, that generating unique and new ideas is the best way to do that because people gravitate to that.

Curation is good and it's helpful for sure, but it's new ideas and new ways and new methodologies that people will actually pay you for, in my experience.

[01:05:37] Paul: Yeah. And that you can always hack the algorithm in the short term, but you can't hack a life by hacking the algorithm. And I think that's where a lot of people get caught up. You see these people, it's like, yeah, you've grown a lot of followers, but they're following you for being basically like a mini news agency, 100%, not an actual person. And like, in my path, I, I had this idea that like, I'm gonna take the slow and stupid path and basically optimize around my own obsessions. And as long as I can just stay afloat, I can win in the long term.

[01:06:12] Creator Wizard: 100%, man. I mean, equally as valid as any other path.

[01:06:19] Paul: What is one source of inspiration, maybe beyond your friends, exercise in the last 6 months, whether it be a podcast, video, something you've seen, somebody in your life? What's something that's had a profound impact on you in the past 6 months?

[01:06:34] Creator Wizard: Past 6 months. Wow. I don't know if this counts. Perhaps it does, but journaling, I would say. I had got the 5-Minute Journal. And literally, it's 3 minutes in the morning, I say what I'm grateful for.

And, you know, today would be awesome if— and then, you know, 2 minutes at night is my highlights of the day. And what did I learn today? And that simple thing has really improved my life, actually. Because it's like, you just have to take a pause to think about, you know, what, number one, what happened in your day, but also what were those special moments throughout, throughout your day? Or I'll get actually a very interesting, a very tangible example of how this actually impacted my life for the positive was when I first started doing it, my, in my what did I learn section, I said, I kept saying over and over and over, day after day, My email inbox is giving me anxiety. I just kept writing it over and over.

I got to the end of the day. I have so many emails. This is so— and finally, after writing this down for 2 weeks, I was like, this is stupid. Why am I writing this down over and over? And so I hired a virtual assistant. I'd been thinking about doing, hiring a virtual assistant for years.

And some reason writing it down, like actually writing it down, I am stressed out. I was like, this is so dumb. And so I hired a virtual assistant and my life now, he is full-time. He started like 10 hours, 20 20 hours, eventually I hired him full-time and it's like my life is so much better for, for, for, for that change. And so it's just like doing small things like this, uh, and actually taking action can make just a big difference, man.

[01:08:21] Paul: I love that. Yeah. Writing for me is a big, just like turning my dumb brain thoughts into like, oh, those are dumb brain thoughts. They were nothing. Um, what, so the final question I, I'm asking people is if you could go back to your 21-year-old self and you're not giving them advice, I don't like that question because I don't like to change the timeline too much, but you are going to plant a seed in their mind, which might grow. What is that seed?

What is that clue you might leave for your 21-year-old self? Maybe it would just be to respond to the Yahoo! personals email.

[01:09:01] Creator Wizard: That would definitely be— well, that happened a year prior to being 21. So that would have been like, been a little too late, but, um, you know, I have found that I, I thought that I had to do a bunch of very aggressive and active things to make money when I was that young. I thought like I have to actively be doing like, um, like my time is directly correlated to like my output, right? So it's like I'm being I'm going to be directly compensated for this thing that I'm doing, right? Which led me to take the traditional job and all, and doing all this stuff. And what I have found is that generating unique ideas and genuinely helping people without an expectation of things in return, money will come to you.

That has been my genuine experience over the last, how many, 15 years, right? I'm 36. Um, that's what I would tell my 21-year-old self is that, um, start generating unique ideas now and helping people. Um, and you can, there's always time to do that other traditional stuff if you have to, but it's actually the compound effect of generating unique, unique ideas is so much more powerful than your direct workout output. And, um, I think that that, that's, that has been my biggest lesson over the last number of years.

[01:10:31] Paul: Couldn't have said it better myself. Uh, where do you want to send people, Justin? I'd love to help, uh, some of my listeners make money if they're creators.

[01:10:41] Creator Wizard: Absolutely.

[01:10:42] Paul: Where should, where should we send them?