Kyla Scanlon on the Passion Crisis, Vibecession, and Quitting Her Job To Bet On Herself | The Pathless Path Podcast

[00:59] Paul: Welcome to The Pathless Path. I'm Paul Millerd, and in this podcast, we examine the invisible scripts that run our lives and dare to imagine new stories for work and life. Today I'm talking with Kyla Scanlon. She is probably one of my favorite writers on the internet. I love how you are synthesizing so many data points and information about psychology, ideas, work, finance, the economy, all this. And you're turning it into probably like— I feel like you have the best ratio of like information per second on the internet.

I don't know if that's a good way to describe you, but great writing, great short-form videos, all sorts of stuff. And you're like really at the beginning stages of building something really interesting, I think. Welcome to the podcast, Kyla. I'm excited to dive in and talk about your journey, and so many things.

[02:03] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I know. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

[02:07] Paul: I wanted to start with growing up. So I know coming from Kentucky is a big thing for you. You went to a state school similar to me. I went to UConn. You went to Western Kentucky. Talk to me about growing up in Kentucky and sort of you as a child, like, what were you thinking?

Okay, I need to— what do I need to do to go be a successful person in the world? What was that story growing up?

[02:34] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I really thought about it that much growing up. Like, I just really loved reading. I wanted to be an astronaut all throughout, you know, middle school. And then I got to high school and was like, you know, I should start thinking about college and got a really good deal from Western Kentucky University, was able to go there. Not only on a full ride, but like get paid to go there, which was super cool. And it was there that I sort of figured out like, oh, finance is really interesting and like understanding money is really important and what is money.

So that was sort of my path is like I've always really loved learning and finance for me, it seemed like an infinite learning group and something that not a lot of people understood and was sort of important to begin talking about. So that was kind of the path and Kentucky was good in general. Like, it's a beautiful state. So yeah.

[03:24] Paul: What— when did you first start writing and sharing ideas and connecting with others online? It looks like the farthest traces of you I could find on the internet were Seeking Alpha contributions. But I know you also had Scanlan on Stocks, which was an early blog. Were there any other experiments early on that stand out?

[03:50] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, so this isn't online, but I started— I wrote my first book when I was 8, and it was about a little penguin. It was called The Little Penguin. And so that was like my first experience with writing, and I really loved it because I was a big reader, like I said. And so for me, it just made sense that if I was reading books, I'd start writing them. And so like, that was my first big experience writing. And then when I was in college, I did start the Scandal on Stocks blog, which is like so embarrassing now to look back on, like what I was saying.

But I started that because in my community at school, like there just wasn't a lot of people who were like thinking about markets the way I wanted to think about markets and like wasn't this sort of in-depth conversation that I was seeking. So I ended up seeking alpha and started publishing my stuff there and it was like me and a bunch of, you know, 50-year-old guys, which is— it was a really good experience. Like there was a lot of good feedback. But that was, geez, maybe 2017. So I've been doing this for a while. Yeah.

[04:52] Paul: What were some of the early questions where you were saying, I'm looking at this differently, I'm not really seeing others look at things this way? What were those like initial hunches or questions you had?

[05:07] Kyla Scanlon: I don't know if it was ever like, I'm looking at things differently. It was just like, I want to look at things more. And so, like, a lot of my writing was a quest to find additional information and a quest to, like, if I go and, you know, go research Amazon stock, I'll go and figure out what Amazon's business is and I'll understand that more. So it was never like I have this big original thought. It was like, I don't understand the world around me. And the only way that I'm going to understand the world around me is through writing about it.

That was how I processed. Yeah.

[05:36] Paul: It seemed going through school and the initial phases of work, there was almost a silent conspiracy to not go deeper. Like people would say things like, well, why would we go more? Like, why, why care? Read books? Like I would read books in consulting about like organizations and I'd be finding these ideas and like people would be like, what are we really going to do with that? Talk to me about like how some of the work you're doing now has sort of opened you up to, oh, maybe people do want deeper ideas.

Did you find that when you first started posting online too?

[06:12] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I mean, I talk about the Federal Reserve extensively, which is, you know, one of the most powerful institutions in the entire world. And it's also one of the most misunderstood and the most— where people are like, I don't even know what the Fed is like, what is that? So for me, a lot of stuff to your point, like, oh, people don't want to go a layer deeper. I oftentimes think that people just don't even have the toolkit to go a layer deeper. Like, if you don't know what you're looking for, like, how are you going to dig the hole? Right?

Like, if you don't even have a shovel. So I think that's sort of like what I try to do is be like, here's information, here's what's going on, here's how it's impacting your daily life. And that's what I try to do is give people the toolkit that they need to understand the world around them.

[06:55] Paul: So Fast Company wrote an article about you as somebody that sort of like, quote unquote, made it. And there is a phrase in there where I feel like they I feel is like another creator that's seen a lot of people's paths. Like, it doesn't really happen as they described it, which is like, oh, she was just like doing random stuff and then she like found her niche and like, boom, right? But like, you were planting seeds much earlier. Talk to me about like those early days. Like, what were some of the things you were learning from feedback from the, the 50-year-old finance bros.

[07:35] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I mean, life was just like a constant feedback loop. It always is. But like, I was just very receptive. Like, I was always trying to understand what was going on around me. Um, and so in terms of like the Fast Company interview and how they're like, oh, these things just sort of started happening. Like, when I was— when I first made my first TikTok, I've been watching TikTok for a couple of months, like trying to understand what worked and what didn't.

And also with the YouTube videos, I do the same thing with writing, like reading all these readers. And then with like the feedback from investors, like, you know, I worked at an institution and I was really paying attention there, like how they talked about things, what they were talking about, and just trying to figure out like what resonated with people and where gaps seemed to be. And so like, that's kind of how I've approached everything is like, where are the holes in the analysis and do I understand why the holes are there sort of thing? Yeah.

[08:27] Paul: What, what did you think in terms of— I think there's this legacy idea of you need to pay your dues, you need to work in an institution to like have the right to speak. Um, did you start learning the opposite lesson through writing, or did you still sort of have that frame as you were approaching graduation and looking for a job?

[08:49] Kyla Scanlon: I don't know what I was doing. Like, I was so confident my senior year because I was like valedictorian, and it was like started this club and had helped pick out her new dean. So like, I was like, I'm untouchable. And so it wasn't until I started interviewing for the jobs that I realized that there's still a lot of like bureaucratic and legacy institutions in place who maybe don't want somebody from Western Kentucky University, for better or for worse. And so the way I got into my institutional job to get that, you know, pedigree was through a blind resume. So somebody taking a chance on me.

And that's, that was like a big wake-up call where it's like, oh, things are not going to be that easy. You know, like it's not going to be as smooth sailing as it was in college. Like I'm going to have to network and I'm going to have to be more than just, you know, somebody who's good at taking tests.

[09:43] Paul: Yeah, that's— I always wonder, like having easy access to the opportunities kind of like limits our creativity and like how we hack our careers. I think a lot of my path was like trying to break into consulting. And I talked to somebody in college and he was like, well, you can't work in consulting from a school like yours. So your best bet is to go to the right schools for grad school and then we can hire you. And that just made me want to find like any way in possible. And then I eventually did.

But it also made me look at things different, which is that like I can't rely on just having like access to a company. Like I need to take ownership of my own path and like keep moving, keep experimenting. Is that sort of the sense you had after dealing with some of the rejection and breaking in to one of these firms?

[10:39] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I mean, I, I just really wanted like a job. And so for me it was like, I need to get a job and then I'll like sort of figure everything out. And so I got a really cool job in LA working for, you know, a pretty big institution and was in their top program there. And so it wasn't until I got there that I was like, oh my gosh, I'm not— like, it's such— it was a great job. It's great for some people, but it wasn't for me. And so I think to your point of like, you know, figuring out what works versus what doesn't and going after the path at any cost, Sometimes once you're on the path, you're like, oh no, time to like turn the truck around sort of thing.

[11:19] Paul: So what were some of the things that were tough for you there?

[11:24] Kyla Scanlon: At a lot of firms, and I'm sure you experience this in consulting, like probably to a higher degree, there's a copy-paste model. Like they kind of want you to think a certain way, which makes sense. They want you to do things a certain way. There's like their way of doing things and For me, I just wasn't maybe as focused on that. I wanted to do things in a different way. I wanted to focus on new things.

And I also really love doing my own thing. And when you're at an institution, you work for them. And so for me, like, that was super tough to reconcile, whereas like, well, I want to go explore this big idea right now. I think this is important and cool. And for them, they're like, no, well, you know, we didn't hire you for that.

[12:05] Paul: So Yeah, I think I lucked out in consulting. My first consulting job was as a research analyst at McKinsey, and I think the bar of excellence was so much further beyond what I had done before that I loved being challenged in that hard way. And also, like, I worked on such a range of projects that I was able to, like, keep learning stuff and I was able to, I think, I had this deep, like, synthesizing mind. I love collecting ideas and making sense of them. So I was able to, like, do that. It was— but then, like, once I got good at, like, the synthesizing, it was like me caring about all the things that I, like, couldn't care about.

And that's when it was hard for me and eventually took my own path. But want to talk about your leap. You DM'd me at the beginning of the pandemic and were like, should I leave my job? It was a very, like, just simple thing, you know, it's like, well, like I'm starting to think like maybe it's worth it to like stay in the corporate world a few years, build some cash and things like that. I think you left like a week later. And I think, I think I like in your specific case, like you should have been like running towards quitting your job.

What was that process like for you? How, how early were you starting to think about it?

[13:26] Kyla Scanlon: Like for me it was, you know, a couple of months. So I graduated school and then literally the pandemic happened a couple of months later. So I never really got like a big corporate experience. So for me, like I had a lot of reflection time during the pandemic, was working this job and I was like, geez, like life is so short, what am I doing? And that was like a big leap for me where I was like, I really want to do this. And also I really wanted to focus on financial education and there just wasn't an opportunity for me to do that at the firm that I worked at, which is fine.

So I was like, I got to take this jump. And it was so scary. I remember riding my bike to the gym. I used to bike to the gym, and I remember riding my bike to the gym and being like, I cannot believe I'm leaving this incredible, amazing job that I don't even know if I should be here. And I had so much like imposter syndrome and I had so much worry about it, but I'm really glad I did it. But, you know, no safety net.

I just was like, sure. So it was, it was thought out, but it was also terrifying, you know.

[14:27] Paul: So what I found is like a lot of people, people that are like, okay, there are downsides to taking this leap, don't take the leap. But if they're like, there are downsides, yes, but they're also like, I have these clues from experiments I've done that there might be something worth finding, there might be these exciting upsides. What were those things for you, if you had them?

[14:51] Kyla Scanlon: Well, when I was doing— I did like a pro/con list, and when I was doing that, a lot of it was around, I should take a leap. I can take a leap. Why wouldn't I try this out? And it was a lot of regret minimization. So I was like, if— will I regret not doing this? And the answer was always yes.

And so for me, I do think I have like more risk tolerance or yeah, more risk tolerance like baked into my identity. I'm just used to taking risks. But I also think for me it was like, I have to see, I have— because if I live this life without ever knowing, like, what I could have done, I would be very sad. And so I was like, I just want to prevent me being sad about that. And being sad about that was more powerful to me than being sad about, you know, leaving that job. Yeah.

[15:39] Paul: And you had some proof that, like, the content you were creating was getting traction, right?

[15:47] Kyla Scanlon: Um, a little bit. Yeah. Like I had the blog and I also like, I was trying to blog the whole time I was at my company, but I had the blog about non-finance things and I still had the blog and I kind of realized then like, if I care this much about like blogging and like writing about finance online, like I should probably go that path too. But I had a little bit of proof of concept, but nothing to where it was like, this is going to work versus won't work. Like things were going okay, but there wasn't like a solid business plan in place. Yeah.

[16:18] Paul: Did you have any path role models of people that were like, okay, they made it, I could potentially steal some moves from their path?

[16:29] Kyla Scanlon: Do you know Cody Ko? He's a YouTuber.

[16:31] Paul: Cody Ko? No.

[16:32] Kyla Scanlon: Okay, so he's a YouTuber and he was like a Vine star and he's a content creator. He makes silly videos, but he was kind of a person where it's like, okay, like if he can make videos, I can make videos. And then all the other stuff sort of happened after that too. But I was, yeah, so I think it's very common for people like around, you know, in the younger generation to be like, okay, like this path of doing your own thing makes sense. Like other people have done it successfully. So I had a lot of quote unquote role models to look up to and Cody was one of them.

[17:04] Paul: Yeah. As an, as an elder millennial, I would say that sentiment is not shared among my cohort. What is like, what is the vibes of like how you should be orienting towards work in your age cohort? Like, what are your friends doing? Like, the pandemic really threw your sort of mini cohort off track.

[17:28] Kyla Scanlon: I think it's interesting right now because you have like the whole quiet quitting thing where people are like, I'm just going to do the job I was hired for. And that became like a big phenomenon where people are like, oh my gosh, they're not working themselves to the bone. So I think there's a desire to have a lot of work-life balance and to not make work your entire identity. So that's what I've noticed with a lot of my friends is they want to be able to like, you know, have a life outside of a corporation. And I think a lot of that stems from people bouncing around jobs, like people, you know, don't have the same job for 40 years like they used to. And you also can't rely on your job like you used to for, you know, pension plan, all that stuff.

So like even our relationship with work has changed because our relationship with companies has changed, you know?

[18:17] Paul: Yeah. What did your parents say when you were thinking about leaving?

[18:24] Kyla Scanlon: They were supportive. I think they were a little nervous because like the job I had was very good. The company was very good. It was very well taken care of. So I think there was a lot of like, why are you doing this? And also I had moved from Kentucky to Los Angeles, had never been to LA before.

And so it had been a really personally trying time to like move all the way across the country for this job. And now I was like, I'm going to leave. And so I think there was a little bit of like, what's going on in terms of the actual job itself? And then in terms of, you know, the steps I had taken to actually, you know, get this job too. They're like, are you sure? But they trust me.

So they were supportive in their own way.

[19:03] Paul: Yeah. Did you have any pushback or skepticism from other people in your life?

[19:09] Kyla Scanlon: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was somebody at my previous firm who was like, you're not going to— like, you're not going to make it.

[19:17] Paul: Geez. Yeah. They said that literally?

[19:20] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. And I was like, you know, maybe. Who knows?

[19:23] Paul: So it's like, thank you for the free inspiration. I'm now going to use this and harness this.

[19:29] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, it was definitely something that it was like, got to prove them wrong, sort of out of spite. So yeah, I mean, and then, you know, a couple of my friends were like, what are you doing, dude? And I was like, I got to. Yeah.

[19:44] Paul: Yeah. I love it. I am so inspired by when people like you take these leaps and really bet on themselves. I think it's one of the most courageous things you can do in this world. And Like, I wish I had left earlier. And I also sort of write about and realize like why it is so hard.

But I'm sort of waking up to the fact that, oh my gosh, we have so much like prosperity and comfort in the modern world. And like, people are like, yeah, I just can't leave a six-figure job. It's so terrifying, right? But like, I'm trying to highlight the upsides of this kind of path, what are some of the biggest surprises in terms of the positive things?

[20:32] Kyla Scanlon: I think it— so I think, like, you know, taking a bet on yourself, like, that's a good way to frame it because you do have to spend a lot of time alone and like a lot of time reflecting on how you interact with the world. So I think it really challenges you as an individual to understand yourself at a really deep level that maybe you don't get to do at a corporation because you have to understand like all these different intricacies. So I think that's a big part of it. And then I also think like the creative freedom is, is really powerful, being able to explore different ideas and do different things and like try different projects and see what resonates and what doesn't. And the experimentation value of doing this is, is wild. And if things don't work, like it, you know, it sucks, but you can just sort of go back to square one and try again.

So I think that like creative freedom and the experimentation is— can't even price it out, you know? It's just invaluable.

[21:26] Paul: I feel that so much. Like, yeah, people have a hard time understanding this. Like, if you don't care about this, you don't care about this, right? But if you do care about the creative freedom, the cost of like having somebody like dumb down your ideas at work can be so soul-crushing. Been there, done that. But I love that.

And I want to use this to shift to another thing you write about, which is sort of related to something I've been diving into, which is what you're calling the passion crisis. And I feel like when I'm reading your writing around this, this is when you're at your most poetic and like you're really just like channeling something so powerful. So what you define as the passion crisis is many of our youth have no idea what they really care about, right? Our passion crisis is broadly a function of tapping into the uncomfortable parts of ourselves. In order to find out what you love, you have to be vulnerable. You have to care.

And caring itself is an act of rebellion in a world that seems to constantly want to put you down. How is like doing what you care about an act of rebellion in today's world?

[22:43] Kyla Scanlon: I think caring is an act of rebellion. There's a lot of nihilism out there, and rightly so, where if you show— so caring involves vulnerability, right? Like they're, you know, two sides of the same coin. And I think that if you show vulnerability, that gives people a place to poke at. It gives people, you know, something that they can use against you. But I think caring is an act of rebellion because you just don't you don't see it a whole lot.

And partially because of that, like the, the, the, the fact that the other people can use it against you and just because it is scary. So that's kind of how I think about it. Yeah.

[23:21] Paul: Yeah. It was the first couple of years on my path. I really hedged because I was terrified of actually saying I cared and because The— what goes with that is like vulnerability, right? And people might make fun of me. People might say bad things. And the thing you learn eventually, once you create enough online and share ideas, is that people do make fun of you.

All the time. They insult you and they say you're an idiot and they say you're wrong. Is it still worth it? Like, I'm sure you face more criticism than me.

[24:01] Kyla Scanlon: Oh yeah, those are peanut gallery people. They don't— their opinions aren't that important. So I mean, I've really struggled with negative comments because people are really mean and they're weird. So like, that's been a big part of overcoming that like self-doubt is understanding that like not everything that everyone says is important, you know?

[24:23] Paul: Yeah. How do you sense that like more people should just like quit their jobs and try. Like, my idea is like everyone should try like a freelance year in their life where they take a year and just like try to make money on their own. I sense that just like doing many more experiments and having the responsibility of your life is sort of the path to figuring out what you care about. Whereas like, I think you like sort of panned this whole idea of like a passion economy, right? I'm I'm sort of skeptical of that idea too, which I think starts more with like, okay, you have something you're interested in, build a career around that.

I'm not sure that works. I've tried to shift people's framing around this instead of like, don't find a niche, find a mode. And what I mean by find a mode is like find a mode of creation, a way of showing up in the world such that you can continue to show up in that mode. How do you think about, like, how do you actually find things you can care about?

[25:24] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I think that's hard too. And I think a lot of people struggle with that because it's either that they're told that the things that they care about don't matter. Like if they're really into like Russian literature, like people are like, that's not going to make you money. And so you start not caring about it as deeply or it becomes something that's on the back burner. But I also agree with you that to an extent, you can't have your passions be your job because at that point you lose them to a certain extent because it becomes something that you oftentimes have to monetize and you just lose the underlying love when unfortunately, when I think when money enters the equation.

So I think that's one of the things I'm really worried about and I don't quite know how to solve it is like people don't know what they care about, partially because we're told that we can't care about certain things because it's not capitalism-friendly, or because they don't know how to explore deeply. Like, we're not encouraged to be curious.

[26:24] Paul: Yeah, our, our perception of like what is possible is so intertwined with the economy and like our ideas of what we think we can do is downstream of like what has already been done. But things are changing so much and like we're shifting to this like probabilistic world. Like how, how do you think like the psychology of like you even said it like with your cohort of friends, like more people are seeing more ways of thinking about their path. But how do you think like that loop changes? Like we still have all these institutions, that are led by people who grew up with the ideas that, like, you need to do things a certain way, you need to follow a path, you need to put in your time versus, like, honestly, the person I go to to think about finance is you.

[27:19] Kyla Scanlon: And yeah, you're—

[27:22] Paul: but like, there's still this old world of like, yeah, she didn't pay her dues, she doesn't have the right credentials, all this. Like, they're missing it.

[27:30] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. Yeah, and they'll continue to think that way probably, and they're loud about it. But I think that there was a good research paper that I saw this morning that was talking about how society moves faster than people. So I think a lot of what you're talking about will just be the aging out, no offense to the boomers, but an aging out of the boomers.

[27:52] Paul: Or the silents.

[27:54] Kyla Scanlon: Or the silents, yeah, all of them, where they are very stuck in traditional ways because that's what's worked for them. And they're not very interested in exploring other models. So I think that's going to be what has to happen because you can glean so much more value from people who are able to explain things in a different way than being very confusing, which I think there's a lot of gatekeeping in the way that we talk about certain types of information now, intentional gatekeeping.

[28:26] Paul: Yeah. You're— what I said at the beginning is you have the most information per second on the internet. And what I'm referring to is your vertical videos. How do you think about condensing and synthesizing information in that format? Was that something you were inspired by other people doing tangential things, or how did that evolve and start?

[28:50] Kyla Scanlon: So that was mostly trial and error. If you go back to my very first vertical videos, TikToks, Instagram Reels, YouTube Shorts. It's clear I have no idea what I'm doing. So I've really tried to use all aspects of the multimedia. So having pictures, having text, having audio, having clips if needed. So like with video, it's so powerful because you can have facial expressions, you can have the pictures, you can have the text.

And so that enables me to say things even quicker because I am talking at people from like 3 different angles because of that. So that's kind of how I think about it, is I try to have the most condensed script possible. I edit out all the times I breathe, like it's tight. And then also having the multimedia aspect to it too.

[29:41] Paul: Yeah. Do you enjoy creating that stuff?

[29:44] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I do. I never thought I would like video editing, but it's actually really fun. And I also think not a lot of, not enough people make art about finance. And I don't think all my vertical videos are art, like some of them are just news updates, but I do think there's a lot of room to not be like a finance meme page. I don't think that's art, no offense to those guys, but I think like just creating pieces, like almost satire, comedy, other things like that around finance, because that is also how people learn, you know, like that's a great way to get education across is through comedy. So that's how I also think about it is that style of editing too.

Yeah.

[30:29] Paul: Yeah. What, what does that look like? Like what is, what is art in this format or space to you?

[30:37] Kyla Scanlon: What is art? Yeah, I think—

[30:39] Paul: Deep question.

[30:40] Kyla Scanlon: This is a big question. So I think it's just a different way of talking about stuff and like bringing a creative flair to it. So like the video I'm thinking of is one that I did for the Federal Reserve when they had their meeting last, where I was like pretending to be a hiker and talking about hiking and the economy at the same time. So I think it's like tying together these, you know, seemingly disparate threads, giving a creative flair to it, allowing the story to unfold within the video. And like, you know, hopefully having people chuckle and learn something. So that's kind of art.

[31:18] Paul: Yeah. I sense a deep, like, poetic inspiration in you. I want to read the second part of your passion crisis. You're talking about, and it's beautiful to care, but man, it can be difficult. The act of being engaged in the world outside of having art that is really your soul on a canvas, or perhaps in a song, or maybe it's a car that you've been fixing up. Or maybe it's a little plant on the windowsill.

Caring at any level is so deep, so raw. It was actually the original money. This is like a perfect sentence in my mind. It's beautiful. Thank you. Wait, what are your inspirations?

Like you said you read a lot as a kid, but like, where does this come from?

[32:03] Kyla Scanlon: Oh, I mean, I just, I read a lot. I read a lot. Like when I say that, I'm not joking. Like, Well, my ritual with my mom was to go to the library every week and I could get 10 books. And so I did that for, you know, from the time I was probably like 6 years old until I was in my teenage years. So 10+ years of reading, you know, 10 books a week.

So a lot of that was that. And then I also really love poetry, like really love philosophy. So that shaped a lot of like my recent writings is like reading poems and then reading philosophy too. So yeah, I love that.

[32:40] Paul: Have you discovered David Whyte yet?

[32:42] Kyla Scanlon: Um, uh, what does he write?

[32:45] Paul: He— so he's like a poet who writes about work.

[32:50] Kyla Scanlon: Oh, maybe. I'm thinking of David Sedaris, but those are two different guys.

[32:55] Paul: Very different.

[32:55] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, I haven't read anything.

[32:58] Paul: David Whyte is like a, uh, British or Scottish poet who used to like be a naturalist and writes now. But yeah, both good writers.

[33:10] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. Yeah. But different writers, right? Like, that's also a cool thing about writing is like you can write in all these different ways. And that's something I've gotten actually criticized for is how casual my writing style is about the economy because people are like, this is not academic. A 5th grader could have written this.

And it's like, that's the goal, you know, that's the goal. So people understand it. Yeah.

[33:31] Paul: Yeah. I feel like you've invented like your own sort of format where you're just like, okay, additional thoughts I'll just throw some sub-bullets and bullets here. Like, did you steal that from somebody else or did you just sort of create that?

[33:45] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I write how I think. So the bullets are my brain, like taking pauses. Also, like how my thoughts look in my head is text. So I just sort of— it already has bullet points in my brain, if that makes sense. So that's— it's just— it's literally just my brain. Yeah.

[34:00] Paul: Yeah. Is text the thing you're most fired up about? In the next 10 years?

[34:06] Kyla Scanlon: 10 years? I don't know. I think there's a lot of weird stuff happening with the AI models and what they're doing. I don't know how that's going to impact the writing space.

[34:16] Paul: We're all waiting. We have no idea. It's kind of crazy.

[34:21] Kyla Scanlon: But there's this video of Elvis Presley going on America's Got Talent or something. It was a deepfake of him. And you can still tell it's not quite real. And I feel like that's how AI writing will also feel like— I do think really good writers, you can sense the humanity behind them. So hopefully that'll remain a variable that cannot be touched.

[34:43] Paul: Yeah, I was playing around with Lex and it did a really good job of quickly generating stuff that was passable and mediocre, which is probably better than 70% of people's writing. Right. But I have like years of reps and different moves and different, like, you develop like your own like shticks, right? Of like, this is the thing I talk about. Like, AI is not going to generate that. But at the same time, I'm also wondering, like, this stuff will just exponentially get better, right?

So at some point, we'll have enough training data to like, there's nothing theoretically stopping AI from generating a TikTok video equivalent to like what you've been creating, right?

[35:33] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah.

[35:34] Paul: And but at the same time, it's almost like I feel like it's kind of like, what is it called? Having like a sense of agency. I'm missing the phrase, but oh, free will. Right? It's like, it's better just to pretend like we have free will.

[35:56] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah.

[35:57] Paul: Because if we didn't, you're just gonna be like helpless. It's better to pretend that like the humans are going to continue to evolve and create interesting stuff than pretend AI is just gonna take everything over.

[36:09] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. I don't know. I think that like, they have AI influencers who are like, you know, computer-generated images and like they have millions of followers. But I also think like people crave humanity in a way that I don't even think people know that they crave it. Like we are communal creatures at heart. So I think like we can interact with this AI stuff, but there will always be like a, you know, a slightly metal taste in your mouth after you do that kind of stuff.

Like I do think we're that discerning. I could be totally wrong. Hopefully not. But I do think like there's still going to be a space. Hopefully there's still going to be a space for humans. If we have an AI like WALL-E kind of world where we're just like scooting around on scooters and watching screens, that would be terrible.

[36:57] Paul: Yeah. What's your balance between being in creative mode and disconnecting? One thing we share in common is a love of bike riding. Like, bike riding is one of my cheat modes. Like, that's how I write is I go for bike rides.

[37:12] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah.

[37:14] Paul: How do you think about the balance between doing and non-doing?

[37:17] Kyla Scanlon: Oh, this is— What kind of bike do you have?

[37:20] Paul: I use the bike share rental. I need to get a bike, so maybe I'll have to ask you for advice.

[37:26] Kyla Scanlon: Well, I can give you—

[37:27] Paul: I've been nomadic for like 4 years, so I just haven't bought one yet.

[37:31] Kyla Scanlon: Well, yeah, so I was like, I'm still slightly all over the place in terms of living and traveling. But I got— I used to have a felt bike and now I have a Cannondale. Because I crashed my felt. And so once I got my Cannondale, like a whole new creative outlet opened up because that is a huge unlock for me. Like when I don't— if you're familiar with my Vibe Session piece, like that was essentially crafted on my bike. Like I was— I biked to and from the gym and I was just— I think about things because all you really do is like pedal and, you know, make sure you don't get hit by a car.

But there's so much like fluidity to that movement that the way I think about it is like you get your gears going in your brain as you're pumping. So biking is a huge— to answer your question, a huge balance for me. I really love like being active, that kind of stuff. I am actively working on learning how to take a break. I think that's something that's really hard when you do your own thing and especially like, you know, creative thing because you do end up becoming your content to a certain extent. So I'm still figuring that out.

But biking is huge.

One thing I was thinking about, or one thing my friend mentioned to me once, he was like, you should do your TikToks, but like on the bike. So like stick the phone on the bike safely and like just talk about the economy. And I was like, that's actually so fun because I love watching this point of view videos where people have like a GoPro on their helmet. And they're just like, boop boop. Like, I feel like that with the economy would be super funny.

[39:13] Paul: So yes, this has to happen. Do you get the moments though, when you're like so flooded by like so many good ideas that you need to like pull over and start jotting it down? Or you do just sort of trust the good ideas will stick around?

[39:27] Kyla Scanlon: I make up an acronym so I remember them. So like, if like for vibe session, like that, yeah, I just remember that word. And then sort of everything else came after it. So, but if I have to remember like a key phrase that I want to sort of write about moving on, I'll just come up with an acronym for it. Yeah, my brain.

[39:47] Paul: What were the dots of vibe session? Like what dots did you connect?

[39:52] Kyla Scanlon: Well, that was actually like a couple of weeks of work in a way that I hadn't realized until I was writing the piece because I had been publishing TikToks because GDP came in negative. And so everyone was like, oh, we're in a recession. And they made this TikTok being like, we're not in a recession. Like, we're not. That's not the definition of a recession. And I was getting yelled at and people were like, but we need a recession.

And I was like, what the heck is going on? And so I wrote this piece called Do We Need a Recession? And I got more feedback based off that piece. And I was like, man, the vibes are off. And so like, that was kind of the whole connection is like the economic data is okay, but people are feeling terrible like that. We're not in a recession or in a bad session, And yeah, it got mixed reviews, but it was a fun piece to write.

[40:35] Paul: So yeah, it sort of ties to this idea. I mean, what's his name? He has this idea of reflexivity.

[40:44] Kyla Scanlon: Oh, George Soros. Yeah.

[40:45] Paul: Yeah. George Soros idea.

[40:47] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah.

[40:48] Paul: Yeah. He has this idea of reflexivity of like basically our emotions influence the market and the market changes and then you have this loop, right? And it seems we're in an age where like more people are becoming more aware that like this basically like finance in the economy is like highly psychological. But then like more people are aware of that and like using that information to like try and influence things. Like we seem to be like in an arms race of like trying to shape how the economy goes, basically on vibes. Like, what is that?

What does this look like? Like, it's totally different than like your grandparents' economy they grew up in.

[41:33] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, well, it's all social media, which is funny. And markets too. So markets, you know, are sort of dictating to a certain extent what the Fed does. So if markets are like, oh, the Fed is going to slow down, they're going to pivot. The Fed is aware that markets are thinking that. So the Fed has to position with the knowledge that markets might know what the Fed is going to do.

So it's like really all these like almost like third, second derivative things that are happening because of the way that information is disseminated and also because of how people are feeling. Because like consumer spending is, you know, 70% of the economy and consumer sentiment drives consumer spending. So like everything does boil back down to consumers and consumers impact the market to a certain degree and the market impacts or the economy impacts the market. And so it's like all connected, you know.

[42:18] Paul: Yeah, I sense you have quite a bit of power and influence. Like, yeah, I mean, you could easily go down the road. I don't think you want to take this path of like hyping stocks, right? And then profiting off that. Like, there are plenty of people like that doing that on the internet. Obviously, you would not do that because you care and you're playing long games, but you're like, your stuff has enormous reach.

And is continuing to grow, like at a certain point, like, will you be responsible for like nudging up GDP at some point?

[42:54] Kyla Scanlon: Oh, I don't know. It's funny that you say that. Nick from The Wall Street Journal is sort of like this unofficial spokesperson for the Federal Reserve. Like he hinted at they're going to slow down in December. So I don't know if that'll ever be me. I don't know how I feel about that, but yeah, I don't know.

I don't know.

[43:19] Paul: Yeah, I think one thing I've— I think like with my book, it's been really interesting to see like how powerful an effect my story has had on other people. And people are emailing me and saying like, yep, your book totally convinced me I need to quit my job. And I'm like, oh no, I need to like, oh, I need to like create a foundation of like safety nets for people, this responsibility. But I do try to write with care and qualify things. But yeah, you can never really control what people are going to do with information.

[43:55] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, absolutely.

[43:58] Paul: Do you— who's your favorite financial leader? Is it Jerome Powell?

[44:04] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. No, I mean, Oh, that's a tough one. Favorite implies always liking. I think that I love the Federal Reserve. Like, I call it a Fed simp all the time, but I'm a little frustrated with them and they're doing what they can with what they have. But like monetary policy is not enough to fix the inflation that we have.

So I would say yes, like, like if I ever met Jerome Powell, I'd be like, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe you. I actually got to interview Mary Daly, who is the CEO and president. Yeah. And when I got in that initial call with them, they were like, oh, we're a huge fan of your work. And I was like, stop. Like, no, you're not.

So yeah, it's always really cool. But yeah, Jerome Powell was great.

[44:49] Paul: Yeah. Say, say more about that. You're not a fan of what the Fed is doing. I sense a lot of it is just like 20th century mindset and toolkit. For like a 21st century world?

[45:00] Kyla Scanlon: Well, so like the Fed is technically responsible for fixing like 50% of the inflation that we have because 50% of the inflation that we have is demand, right? Like it's outsized demand. It's bullwhip demand from the pandemic, being locked inside. The other 50% is supply-side issues, and that's fiscal policy. And so the Fed is essentially like just hammering the economy like, hey, everybody just stop spending money, stop spending money so the supply side can catch up. But I, and I and a lot of other people are like, well, you know, it probably makes a little bit more sense to approach this from a fiscal policy angle where you're actually fixing the underlying problems versus just like forcing things downwards.

So that's my frustration. It's not something the Fed has any control over, but it's just like we have to have a deeper approach to inflation. But of course, like politics gets in there and it's never that easy.

[45:50] Paul: Yeah. Do you, do you buy the idea that a lot of this is excess savings and income from like upper income people who basically just like won't take the cues and stop spending?

[46:02] Kyla Scanlon: I mean, maybe to a certain extent, like luxury companies are doing pretty well still. So there's still a lot of spending power at the upper echelons and, you know, lower income consumers are not doing well. So there's definitely increased bifurcation there that is really difficult. But I think a lot of the inflation that we have is from broken supply chains, from price gouging, that sort of stuff. So it's more nuanced than just like people spend money, but that's how the Fed has to fix it.

[46:32] Paul: Yeah. And I sense more broadly there's sort of like different reality tunnels people are living in. Like I was sort of joking the other day about like, okay, if, if you're like a retired boomer with a pension, that just gets a massive raise in your, your Social Security as well because it's adjusted for inflation and you have a pension, like you're sort of protected from super downside. So like you might as well just keep spending, right? You might have a 2% mortgage, you might have paid off your home and you're just sort of like collecting assets versus like a Gen Z who is like looking at an 8% mortgage rate and like, shit, I may never have a home, the job, like there are no stable careers, there's no pensions, all this. Like, what does an economy look like when you have basically people living in different realities?

[47:26] Kyla Scanlon: It's tough. Yeah. And like the Fed's tool is pretty blunt and right. Yeah, it's destroyed— not destroyed, but it's really impacted the housing market and it's created, I think, a lot of financial nihilism with the younger generation. And it's really tough because boomers and older generations, you know, 32 million people have no mortgage, so they're not going to feel any impact from mortgage rates. They have more spending power because they've been working for 40 years.

So it's an unequal playing field. Yeah.

[47:59] Paul: Yeah. How have the vibes of your path changed over time? If you had to say, like, the vibes of, like, your path at the beginning and, like, how it's evolved. How would you describe it?

[48:10] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I think at the beginning I was really scared and nervous and didn't know what was going to work versus what didn't. And just like, I was just focused on doing TikTok. And since then it's like really become sort of a little machine. I'm still a team of one person, which is— it can be a little tough sometimes. But, you know, now I have the YouTube channel and the Substack and the TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts, and I get to do interviews and do speaking engagements. So for whatever reason, people are taking me more seriously, I think, than they used to, which is really nice.

It's still an uphill battle in some aspects of that, but like the opportunities that I've gotten, I think are like the vibes of those are something I couldn't even have dreamed of a year ago, you know? Yeah.

[49:00] Paul: How has, how have you thought differently about making money? From like the beginning to like how you're thinking about making money now.

[49:09] Kyla Scanlon: So I'm like one of the worst monetizers in the world.

[49:13] Paul: I'm really bad at this too. Like, I wait till like the world is like giving me money and I'm like, oh, I'm so dumb. I should have done this before.

[49:21] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, I do it through brand deals right now. Or, well, I shouldn't say brand deals, working with companies. So I have different partnerships that I make videos for them and they distribute that on their platform. That's my primary mode right now. I have the Substack, which is sort of like a Buy Me a Coffee model, and people are so generous there. And then I make money from YouTube as well.

So those are all the different paths. Yeah, I got to figure it out a bit more.

[49:48] Paul: Yeah, I do sense there is upside in sort of putting off monetizing things too early because it gives you more room to experiment. And Chris Abdelmesih, who I know you follow as well, Awesome. Yeah. Shout out, Chris, if you're listening. Shout out, Chris. But he planted this idea in my head, which I can't like unhear.

You might have heard it in the podcast we did, which was sort of just riffing, but it's like the future options of a path like ours are unknown to us, right? Duane Reade didn't know they were a real estate company until the value of real estate became more valuable than being a retail company. Right. Similar to like McDonald's becoming a real estate company. So it's sort of like my conception. This also could be like partial cope of like, I'm not making tons of money from my path, but like really, like I think so important is basically just staying in the game.

That seems to be like 90% of it. Once you have like a curiosity rabbit hole that you can explore and like I've sort of proven that to myself, it seems like you could probably go with finance for the rest of your life. Does that feel similar to you and how you're thinking about it?

[51:02] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, like you don't know what's out there until you know kind of thing.

[51:06] Paul: Or it may not even exist yet, right? Like a lot of people are doing cohort-based courses now. When I started my path in 2017, that wasn't like common knowledge yet. Right. But then you see people do different things and you're like, oh, I could do that. Right.

The ecosystem now is so much better than it was like when I started in 2017. There was no like Twitter scene. People were just posting like dumb, dumb comments on Twitter. There were no threads. And but now it's like you can sort of go online and see like 100 different ways to make money and things like that.

[51:44] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, no, totally. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the ecosystem evolves for sure.

[51:50] Paul: Yeah. And who have been some of the biggest supporters that have really encouraged you and helped you kind of maintain the course and stay on your path?

[52:01] Kyla Scanlon: Chris has been really supportive, actually.

[52:04] Paul: He's amazing.

[52:05] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, he's been really great and like have been able to bounce ideas off him. There's a bunch of people on Twitter who just, you know, are there and like are checking in and stuff. So like, it's really too many names to even list. I'm really lucky. Yeah.

[52:22] Paul: What, what have you learned about putting yourself out there?

[52:25] Kyla Scanlon: It's scary, but you have to do it. I had to do it. I don't think it's for everybody. Like, I don't think everybody in the world has to make videos or has to, you know, have a podcast, but I think if you got something to say, you know, you should say it. And that's sort of what I've learned. And I've also really spent a lot of time understanding my perception of myself.

Because if you get really involved with like how other people are perceiving you, you forget who you are. So that's, I think, a big thing with that. Yeah.

[53:03] Paul: Yeah. How did it feel getting some of the big features in different magazines?

[53:09] Kyla Scanlon: I struggle a lot with imposter syndrome, so it was weird. Like, so unbelievably amazing. But I was like, me? Like, are you very kind of, you know? And like, for me, I think, and maybe you relate to this, like, you get so deep in the day-to-day that you don't think about the impact. Like, even when you're talking, when you said 10 years from now, I was like, I can't even think 10 days from now.

Like, what is going on?

[53:34] Paul: I'm the same, so I shouldn't have asked that.

[53:37] Kyla Scanlon: No, no, it's okay. But you have to think about it to a certain degree. But I think that's a big thing is like, you're just like, okay, I have to execute. I have to get this video. And I like to, right after this conversation, I have to edit a video, then I have to film a video, then I have to edit that video, then I have to write. So you just get really involved in the execution.

And so, but like, like some of the comments that people have left, I feel like I've been focused on like negative stuff and this will relate back to the features. Like people are like, oh, Kyla, like I've learned so much about the economy from you. Like you've really done an amazing job, like helping me understand the world around me. And that's all that matters at the end of the day. You know, features, no features, whatever, is that people are understanding the economy a little bit better. So that's how I think about it is like, you know, it's amazing the impact that it seems to be having.

So.

[54:24] Paul: Yeah, it is. It's a weird disconnect. I've had a couple people sort of treat me like some sort of, like, famous person when they were like, oh, I read your book. Like, oh my God, you're this— you're Paul. I can't believe I'm meeting you. And it's like, it's like, like you, like, I'm mostly doing everything myself.

And then I'm like going to do like podcast show notes and like grinding on audio editing or something. Paying. And so like, it's just, it's this weird disconnect. But I really like that kind of stuff and like the combination of things I'm doing, I enjoy. But yeah, it's also— I just want to say, like, I find your stuff absolutely delightful as a fellow, like, infovore. I'm like, I wish there was like a slow-mo, like a charts version of your things.

I'm like, oh my God, I want to see that chart.

[55:16] Kyla Scanlon: I'm like trying to hold and then like Oh, I should do a better job about that. Yeah. Yeah.

[55:21] Paul: No, just, just keep doing what you want to do. But yeah, I bet people would pay for like a, like a download of the charts or something. You could probably like figure out some like charts of the day.

[55:36] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. Something I really wanted to get more into, like longer daily content. So I'm trying to figure out like how to, how to do that. So maybe it'll be something like that. Yeah. Because I, There are so many good charts out there, you know.

[55:48] Paul: Yeah. What— how do you think about like the cadence and pace of your stuff? Has that mostly just been like trial and error of what works or like do you have something, a philosophy you're thinking about?

[56:01] Kyla Scanlon: So actually kind of circle back to an earlier point in our conversation of I write them as poems. So they're actually structured as poems.

[56:11] Paul: This is This is amazing. Do people know? Is this the first time you're revealing this?

[56:17] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. Yeah. Like, they don't sound like poetry, but in terms of like the beats and how it processes, I'm forgetting the exact like poetic word, timbre, I think. But yeah, they're both.

[56:31] Paul: I actually think they do. Like, that makes a lot of sense. Like, that is the perfect answer. And it Makes sense. I'm never going to be able to unsee your Reels or TikToks as poems now.

[56:45] Kyla Scanlon: Now they're poems.

[56:48] Paul: What do people get wrong about short-form video?

[56:51] Kyla Scanlon: Oh my gosh. Like a lot of people, it's crazy. They're like, oh, you know, too fast, not good. I would never, not interesting to me. And it's like, if it's not interesting to you, like, sorry. But I think a lot of people are definitely, you know, TikTok has its own like national security problems.

But in terms of like that form of disseminating information, that's how the younger generation gets news. And like, that's what they pay attention to. They're not gonna read, you know, different blog posts. Like they're gonna watch videos. So I think it's really important to like meet people where they need to be met. And oftentimes that's short-form video platforms.

Yeah.

[57:27] Paul: I also think it's a really effective, what I call curiosity trigger. You're basically just like putting like tiny morsels out there. And then like when you started a Substack, I was like, oh, hell yeah, there's deeper thoughts. I'm going in, baby.

[57:42] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. Different dimensions to the brain.

[57:45] Paul: Yeah. And how have you enjoyed like going from like TikTok to YouTube and the different creative constraints?

[57:54] Kyla Scanlon: I like YouTube a lot because for whatever reason, it feels like more personal. Like people go to your page, if that makes sense, versus TikTok, like they'll sometimes just be scrolling and you'll just be like a part of their journey versus like their final destination. Information. So I really like that aspect of it. And then I like the longer form stuff because I can have more of my personality be there versus the TikTok. It like has to be so concise that I don't get to like make a lot of jokes, theoretically.

But yeah, so that, that's the main thing is you get to be more of a person.

[58:26] Paul: So on Jim O'Shaughnessy's podcast Infinite Loops, one of my favorites as well, You were talking about what you're trying to build. You're calling it Bread. Yeah. What is this? What does this mean? Is this a brand name basically for your continued one-person shop, or what are you aiming towards?

[58:47] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah, it's a financial education company. So kind of like Duolingo, but for finance. So creating different learning paths for people to understand the economy a little bit better, to understand the stock market, to understand the bond market. And really, you know, meeting people where they need to be met in terms of learning styles, having video, audio, text, all that stuff available, but gamifying learning about finance. So Investopedia, but with a ribbon on top. Yeah.

[59:14] Paul: Why bread?

[59:16] Kyla Scanlon: Money. It's another name for money.

[59:18] Paul: Oh, nice.

[59:19] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah. And also, like, it's— there's a couple of other dimensions that I can't talk about right now, but like the bakery is part of it. Dough is a part of it too. So like there's other arms to it.

[59:31] Paul: I like that.

[59:32] Kyla Scanlon: Yeah.

[59:32] Paul: Yeah. You wrote in one of your essays, money is not a moral compass. What do you mean by that?

[59:39] Kyla Scanlon: So, you know, money is going— it's incentivized by making more of it. And a lot of times making more money is not always morally the quote unquote right path. Like you can't follow the money and be led to the perfect solution most of the time. People get swayed by money in ways that are immoral. So that's kind of what that means is like you cannot have money be your guiding force if you can allow— if it's allowed, you cannot have money be a guiding force, I think.

[01:00:14] Paul: I love that. What do you need help with? Like, I think I have such a cool audience. They're so generous. And like, what do you need help with on your path? Like, what kind of support and encouragement do you need?

[01:00:28] Kyla Scanlon: Okay. So it's like in terms of the content or just in terms of like being a person?

[01:00:35] Paul: Yeah, being a person. That's what this podcast is all about.

[01:00:39] Kyla Scanlon: Well, I'm— so I've been under quite a bit of stress recently and have not been handling it very well. So like stress management tips are always well appreciated. And then I think like, you know, self-confidence things like understanding yourself a little bit better. And then if anybody has advice on how to rest and how to sleep, I would love it.

[01:01:02] Paul: But yeah, also like I think just as another fellow creator on this path, like this stuff is hard and it's so overwhelming sometimes. And I totally feel like what you've been feeling as well. So stay the course. And I think your stuff matters. Keep going.

[01:01:24] Kyla Scanlon: Thank you. Thank you.