Laurel Farrer on The Global WFH Experiment & The Long-Term Promise Of Remote Work

[01:35] Paul: Today I'm talking with Laurel Farrer, the founder of Distribute Consulting and the Remote Work Association. I'm excited to talk to her today because I think she's one of the smartest thinkers on remote work. And she spent more than 10 years herself working as a distributed team manager and now works and advises many of the leading remote companies on operations and strategy today. Welcome to the podcast, Laurel.

[02:10] Laurel Farrer: Thank you, Paul. I'm blushing. That was a great intro.

[02:15] Paul: We are talking in the midst of a global pandemic and a major, major shift in how work is being done. We went from a month ago where work was as usual in many places to now where many people are finding themselves operating remotely for the first time. And I thought it would be useful to check in with you today and I want to help share some of the ideas and foundational principles around how you've been thinking about this for years and how companies might be thinking about shifting to remote work. We'll dive into some of the tactics, but I wanted to start with just a high-level framing of the vision you see for remote work and why you're so excited about it. And you wrote something that I'll quote, "Virtual jobs can change the life of our workers, our businesses, and our communities." So, I'd love to hear, like, what— where does that come from? Where does that vision take us?

And how are you thinking about remote work at the Meta level right now?

[03:37] Laurel Farrer: I'm really glad that we're starting there because I feel like that is the most important conversation. So many people, when they're thinking about remote work and are new to remote work, they get caught up in in the convenience of it, right? Like, woohoo, I don't have to put on, you know, business clothes every day. I can work in my sweatpants, or I can work from more, you know, picturesque locations or whatever. And it's very indulgent and it's very convenient. And that's fine, but what the message that I really want to drive for people is that remote work is so much more than that.

It is impacting just about every single element of our lives. Or at least has the potential to. And we're not talking about it. We're talking about sweatpants. So I really like that we're starting here because, yes, it really does have the power to change our lives of ourselves, of our families, of our communities, of our businesses, because it's so revolutionary. And not that it's new, but if we implement workplace flexibility at scale, it impacts So much economic development, diversity and inclusion, how businesses are developed and where they're developed and what their bottom line can be, sustainability during recessions.

Like, there's just, I mean, it like keeps rippling all the way to like, it impacts childhood obesity. And I mean, obviously like this is a conversation that we could have for days and days and days, but that's the real meat and bones of this topic is that it's so much more than we think. Think it is, and we're not giving it enough respect if we're only talking about how we can wake up 5 minutes before a meeting and still arrive on time, right? Like, we need to be talking about it with a lot more respect and a lot more responsibility.

[05:37] Paul: When was the first time you came to that conclusion personally, uh, in your own journey?

[05:44] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, I think It was kind of always there along the way. When I first took my own team remote 13 years ago, that's when I really saw the business case for it. That at that time it wasn't cool, right? Like it wasn't, it wasn't fun to be a remote worker. You had to like hide it because you wouldn't be a credible business if you didn't have an office. And so it wasn't like this trendy thing then.

I was really using it as a strategy to build the business effectively. So That's the first time that I saw that part. And then later on when I became a mother and I thought, man, I really want to be a stay-at-home mom, but I also really want to be a career woman. Do I have to choose? And then that kind of added another layer of this sociological case of we can be more, we can have these multifaceted parts of our lives and job accessibility shouldn't be based on location. You know, there are lots of different things that prevent people from commuting to an office that wouldn't necessarily prevent them from commuting or prevent them from working in general.

And so maybe we could, you know, really change and develop the job market in that way. So that added that layer. And then a couple of years ago when I started working with organizations like state and national governments and the World Economic Forum, that's really what unlocked the final layer of, you know, people talking about all of these problems like environmental sustainability and economic development and diversity and inclusion. And I just found that when I was sitting at those tables, every question and concern that we were talking about, I said, well, I have a solution for that. Like, oh, well, I can help with that and I can help with that. And all of these completely diverse topics.

Remote work really can be not the solution, but can be part of the solution for just about any of these problems that we're having. In fact, 14 of the 17 United Nations sustainability goals can be alleviated with remote work. I mean, that's mind-blowing. So yeah, I think that in terms of my, you know, day of revelation, it's been an evolution throughout my entire career. And so now I'm, I'm really honored to, to advocate at this level.

[08:12] Paul: Yeah. And I found in many people I've talked to in exploring remote work, the first questions are always, it's kind of a reflection of the current anxieties and beliefs of how we see work, right? We see work as like a duty, something that's more about hard work, an idea of like putting in long hours rather than creativity, generosity, connection. And I see the reflection of this when people go remote. The questions are often, well, how do I control workers? How do I make sure they're productive?

I actually got a question in my email today about this, and I'm going to have a discussion with somebody next week. And it's really a hard shift, right? Because it takes evaluating our beliefs around like what work is. How have you seen some of your clients navigate that and how you think about that big question?

[09:15] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, so on a very, you know, small scale, we do talk about reporting structures and new supervisory methods and modalities. And so, you know, that's at the micro level that we help them through that change management process. But in response to the bigger picture, remote work is one branch of the future of work. And I feel like the centralized theme of all of the branches of the future of work are human empowerment, that we are really creating space for the human element to take priority, that we can be all of the things that humans are that machines aren't and that processes aren't, right? Like we can think creatively, we can make decisions, like all of these things. And have the empowerment and the permission to do that.

And so I think that if we use that as a North Star, then the managers that are worried about, you know, how do I control my workers? How do I know that they're working? We see remote work as this shift from, well, I need to supervise them and watch them in the office, to this human empowerment that You know what, human beings, maybe they don't need to be controlled and supervised by somebody else. They are capable of doing that themselves if given the proper space and structure to do so. And so, yeah, I think that that's the big picture, and it is a big shift. I mean, there's no question about that.

Those feelings of fear and hesitation are completely valid, but Yeah, we can encourage them along and say, no, this isn't about losing control. It's about just shifting it back into the hands of the worker directly and giving them more autonomy, more independence, and more empowerment.

[11:13] Paul: Yeah, I often see that the role of the manager shifts, and this can be a really challenging shift for the manager. You're shifting from kind of like doling out work and coordinating work to actually empowering people. And that takes two things. One is that the manager needs to figure out the tools, the processes, needs to learn from people like you. But there's also a jump up in responsibility. Now, for like the individual worker, you might want more autonomy, but with that comes the responsibility of designing your day, figuring out how to schedule meetings, figuring out when you work best, communicating often in written form.

And these things are really hard. And I think some of the best firms I see really emphasize these things. What are some of the themes you see with that kind of shift?

[12:14] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, so the greatest, the greatest theme that I see is more on the skill set, not necessarily the processes, which I say hesitantly because I come from a background in operations. Operations management, right? So I'm like all about the workflows. But in my time of managing virtual teams and studying remote work, this is the theme that has come up is it's not necessarily being prepared for the situation. It's being prepared to prepare for a situation. And so having that autonomy means that you are able to think critically by yourself.

In fact, just right now when we're in the midst of this work from home, you know, Time magazine called it experiment, right? That this is a really big question that I'm getting all the time. It's like, well, what do we do? You know, we're alone. Like, how do you deal with the dog barking? And how do you deal with the spouse that needs to share the office?

And, you know, how do you, how do you deal with this? And I'm like, you know what, look, there's not a a one-size-fits-all answer for every single problem. However, the, the answer that does fit all of those problems is, what's your process for solving the problem independently? Like, I feel like somebody's— anybody's ability to be self-aware enough to identify a need, then articulate the need, and then brainstorm a solution, and then proactively implement a solution, that's your answer, right? Like, and that will get you through any problem, whether it be like, I've got this massive dip in sales this quarter and I've got to figure out what to do. Or I noticed that I'm getting really tired after lunch and I'm not motivated to work on my own without my coworkers around.

What should I do? Like, no matter how macro or micro, that ability to to problem solve and to be in our own control of our time and our tasks and our energies and our ideas, that I think is, is the universal solution.

[14:27] Paul: Yeah. One of the things I've suggested people do in this shift is to put a piece of paper next to their desk or open a notepad and just make conscious notes of What are the challenges I'm facing while I'm doing this? And then have like a team meeting weekly for at least the first month, if not for the first 6 months, and say, all right, what's coming up for people? What are challenges? And kind of take them one by one and figure out how to address them.

[15:00] Laurel Farrer: Absolutely.

[15:02] Paul: The danger— I mean, I've done a lot of culture work. The danger is that if you start ignoring these things, you start embedding the assumptions that certain things are okay or we— they don't matter, right? So you need to be, especially if you're the manager, hypervigilant about like elevating every minor issue. It might seem like tedious at the beginning to the surface. It's like making everything visible, especially just the awareness.

[15:33] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, like that communication, that articulation of What are the problems? That's a really great first step of just being aware of what the problems are, as opposed to— well, I say this because the real danger about this big work-from-home experiment is that everybody is going to get really frustrated and say, oh, this isn't working. And then they're going to just throw up their hands and say, see, I told you, like, remote work doesn't work. So just that very small micro step of, articulating and identifying exactly what is going wrong is that empowerment to say, if there's a problem, there's probably a solution as well. Let's think of what it is together, as opposed to just, you know, throwing up your hands and calling defeat and saying, well, you know, this didn't work. Like, no, that's misdirected blame.

And let's make sure that we think proactively and constructively about this.

[16:27] Paul: If there's any guarantee, it's that they definitely will get frustrated.

[16:32] Laurel Farrer: Absolutely, every day. Like, but then that's work. Like, of course you're gonna get frustrated in your home office because you're probably gonna get frustrated in your office too. It's just a different way of— a different environment in which you're going to get frustrated.

[16:46] Paul: Well, and I think this is an exciting time because there are more tools than ever. I've been working more or less remotely even though I was in big consulting firms. I was doing remote work since 2008, and the tools and connection and the video were so bad. Yeah. Now there are a lot of tools. Part of the problem is there's too many tools and trying to figure out what to use, but often there is some sort of solution that you can prototype or test pretty quickly for free.

Mm-hmm. What have been some of the— your favorite tools you've seen or even some of your clients that have said, wow, this really made a difference?

[17:31] Laurel Farrer: Great question. So my big caveat here is that like you, I came from a generation that we didn't have the tools. We just had email and that was it. And we got by just fine. So my personal stance on this is that a tool, any software stack, is just a tool. Just like a paintbrush is a tool.

That you are going to get very, very different results with the paintbrush based on how you're trained to use it. And so it's not necessarily the tool that's going to solve your problems. It's how you're using the tools. So that being said, the tools that, that I recommend are not necessarily specific brands, but I think that every remote team has to have 5 different tools. The first one is asynchronous communication. So you've got to have something, at least email, right?

That is because I can send a message to somebody in a different time zone and they're gonna get it and they can respond and I can read it at a time that's convenient for me. So that's, I think that's number one. So asynchronous communication, then synchronous communication. So whether that be phone calls, if you prefer, I really don't recommend phone calls. I prefer video calls because you've got that nonverbal communication element. But whatever you prefer is fine.

So just some way to talk in real time. You also need file storage, somewhere where everybody has access to all of the resources at the same time. I really, really recommend cloud storage because everybody can collaborate in the same file and not have multiple versions downloaded in different places. Let's see, so that's 3. So file storage, async— And sync, and then project management. So this is how your people know what they should be working on, and they don't have to, you know, walk into your office and be like, hey, do you need me to do anything?

Like, there's their to-do list all ready to go. Examples of that are like Doist, Evernote, Asana, Trello, you know, virtual workspaces, whatever you use, totally up to you, but project management system and Yeah, and then I think other than that, a space. And ironically, we'll call this like an office location, right? If we think of an office as the place where everybody congregates and you know where you're going to be able to find everybody else and collaborate together on work, you need that place. You need to have a place where you know that you have camaraderie, that you have access to other people so you don't feel isolated. So for most teams, that's going to be a collaboration tool like Slack or Jira or Microsoft Teams or something like that.

And, and that's what I use with my own team is, you know, Slack is our office, but, but if it's not those specific tools, it just needs to be a place somewhere where your team congregates together.

[20:36] Paul: Yeah, I think one warning on Slack, I know I've talked to a lot of people the default mode of Slack is to optimize for continuous engagement and conversation. So I think the teams and companies I've seen that use Slack the best establish some sort of norms or certain times when they say, oh, we're all gonna be in during this time and here's kind of a check-in, either fun, it can be virtual happy hours, I've seen virtual dance parties they do at Zapier, things like that, or just kind of a check-in, like, what's going on? Send me a picture of your workspace, your view today, the book you're reading, your dog, your baby, things like that. A lot of those things I've seen work really well. We've seen the case of, like, Away, where they're like— my issue there was not with, like, some of the behavior.

It was actually like the norms were to put everything on Slack, which just seemed a little crazy.

[21:42] Laurel Farrer: It's a lot of noise.

[21:43] Paul: Yeah.

[21:43] Laurel Farrer: Yeah.

[21:43] Paul: Right. And it doesn't enable people to kind of step back and communicate asynchronously, asynchronously to kind of write out and think through what the deeper, deeper ideas are.

[21:59] Laurel Farrer: Yeah. Yeah. Slack should definitely shouldn't be like your new Facebook or something, right? Like it's where you connect people, but you connect people about work, and so you make sure that you still have work happening. But that being said, I think it's also great to have either— well, you need to have a remote work policy, period. But in specifically referring to Slack, it's great to have a communication charter for every remote team.

This is inspired by Evernote's communication charter, but it's where you say these are the channels that we use for these situations, right? And these are the expectations, these are the norms, these are the manners of how we use these tools in our team. And that goes a long, long way so that if somebody is in an emergency, they know exactly how to contact somebody in need. The example that Evernote gives is you would never send an email to the fire department if your house is on fire. And that's exactly what we need to provide for our team as well. Okay, you know, this is what the different methods of communication mean in our team, and this is, you know, how you use them, and so that they, they can flow and, and integrate into the culture of our virtual team much easier.

[23:22] Paul: I'd love to talk about trust. This is another big T word. This is another foundational principle. We touched on it a little in terms of of like people's uncertainties and discomfort with not being able to see where people are and what they're working on. I think the best advice here comes from companies that have been working remotely for 5, 10+ years, and almost universally they have some version of this value, which says we default to trust. We embrace the charity principle of giving people the benefit of the doubt.

And I think that is vitally important because without that barrier, you can quickly fall into the default to untrust. I don't know. I don't know if that is the right word or a word, but it can quickly devolve into kind of checking in and everything and like constantly monitoring status on chat programs and things like that.

[24:25] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, doubt and micromanagement.

[24:27] Paul: And yeah, in reading about this, and I was writing about this, um, there's not actually a lot written about when trust falls apart, but I imagine you have seen some of these situations. Can you—

[24:43] Laurel Farrer: I lived these situations, man. That's why I became a consultant.

[24:46] Paul: Yeah, no one talks about this. Can you talk about some of the scenarios when falls apart and what that looks like and feels like.

[24:57] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, it's, it's not, it's not pretty, I'll tell you that. So I had been working— so this is my personal story, and then I'll get into the bigger picture— but I had been working remotely for a decade and then got hired by a fully distributed company. I was the COO, and it was super excited about the role, and then got into into the operations, and I was responsible for— I mean, it was a workforce of about 500, and I was engaged, you know, I was people ops, and, and so I was engaged with those 500 and kind of the liaison between the executive team and the workforce. And, and so I felt like that I was like this buffer of protecting the workforce from this extremely toxic environment. What I learned was an extremely toxic environment in the executive team. And it was, it was horrible.

It was exactly what you described. Tons of micromanagement, no support whatsoever, no like emotional empathy or emotional intelligence of any kind. And it was just like pumping out the work, right? Like this was a very classic startup in which it's just so focused on output exclusively at all costs and you neglect your family and you neglect any other responsibilities or priorities. It's just pumping out the work. And it was, I'm an extremely hard worker and I'm very much used to that pace and I kind of thrive on that pace.

But to do that without any support and camaraderie from the team, from my executive team, was, I mean, I can't even describe it. People, the other members of the executive team that were quitting or getting fired were going straight to therapy. I was vomiting before standups because I was so stressed and just, it was so incredibly toxic. I couldn't even, I couldn't believe it. And so that's exactly why I became a consultant and started, started learning about this. I mean, I didn't, I didn't just jump into becoming a consultant, but that's when I started getting connected with all of the other distributed companies and saying, hang on, like, is this like this for everybody?

Like, is this the normal? And then I just started interviewing more and more and more companies and learning that, yeah, a lot of them were having this problem and a lot of them were not. And what's the X factor? And so I love organizational development. And so that's where my brain went is, How do we make sure that a company that is starting into remote work and distributed operations can become the next Envision and Automatic, as opposed to IBM and Yahoo that had to retract their policies? Like, how do we ensure that?

And that X factor really is trust. It's, it's this workflow that's based on empowerment and support, as opposed to just demanding this work and burning out all of your, your employees. It is perceiving and treating your employees as a whole individual. So yeah, so that's what we talk about now as consultants. And, you know, to be honest, if we go in there to like enterprises and we start talking about empathy and trust, there's a poor reception, right? Like you got to talk in numbers.

So that's what we do is we create a very convincing case for change about how this method of work is much, much better for the bottom line of the company. And then as we're doing the training, it happens to be that this is the theme of all of the changes is this emotional intelligence and this trust and this empowerment that's based on the future of work.

[28:57] Paul: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I'm seeing people's firsthand accounts of the communications from their companies. And you see the companies that have been remote for a while, and they're communicating things like this. I read a tweet from Amir, who's the co-founder of Doist, and he's saying, we expect you to work less. This is going to be stressful. You have other things going on in your life.

Just like take time if you need it, no questions asked. Don't worry about being the best you can be at work right now. Be the best person you can be right now. And then I'm reading things from companies that are going remote and they're saying, well, you might have more time so you can get more done now. And nothing is going to destroy trust quicker than saying like, you should do more work now. Right.

[29:54] Laurel Farrer: Or getting frustrated. Like, Okay, we're on a video call, we're trying to work, and here, you know, your kid comes into the room like, what are you thinking? Like, are you not committed to your job? And it's like, dude, like, in a couple of days, our homes have now become our offices, our schools, our doctor's offices, our, you know, like, our churches, our playgrounds, like everything have, have been smashed into just a few rooms all in a few days. Like, we have to be a lot more patient, a lot more communicative, a lot more understanding amidst this, this entire, you know, chaos in and of itself.

But then just, yeah, in general, like, I think that that's kind of the— I mean, if we go full circle all the way back to people thinking about how convenient remote work is, like, Yeah, that this is the fun foundation of this topic is that you don't need to sit in a car for 2 hours a day in order to be really great at your job. And that's, that's like really what starts this conversation. And so that opens the door for, yeah, I can also be a mom or a runner or a cook or a daughter or a friend. And also be really great at my job. And so we're really just, we're, we're valuing again, valuing the human element as the whole human element, not just somebody's professional output.

[31:29] Paul: Yeah. And I think this takes time. That's important to note. I think when I first started working independently, it took me about 6 to 12 months to get a sense of, okay, when do I like to work? How do I design my day? And then And one huge lesson for me is that if you are not going to an office, you actually need to be more excited about your work because you're— it's like a base rate of motivation.

[31:59] Laurel Farrer: Yeah. That intrinsic motivation is, yeah, it's all you have. You don't have your boss walking by you and you're like, oh, I've got to hurry and get back to work. Like your motivation of yourself is all you have.

[32:11] Paul: Right, the extrinsic motivation of like pleasing others is just higher in an office, and that can be useful. Some people like that, and that falls away. And something you might be 5 out of 10 excited about and you're able to do pretty easily at work can become impossible at home, right? You're just staring at the screen and you're like, I could go clean over there, I could go do these things. And that was one of the hardest things for me. And I think proactively, like, I'm trying to create my own work and focus on what energizes me.

But if you have tasks to do, really thinking through, like, how can I automate some of these things? How can I get help to keep me accountable? Maybe an accountability buddy. Different things like that are very different. Working independently.

[33:07] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, and again, it circles back to that workflow of identifying your blocks and identifying where am I having trouble and how can I solve this problem. And, and yeah, if that motivation, that self-motivation is hard for you, look for solutions. Ask people for advice, you know, really solve this problem because it is, it's absolutely critical because that mind shift is tough. I mean, so my career way back when started as an interior designer, and so I'm a really big believer in the impact of our work, of our environment on our psychology. And this is proof of that, right? Like when we get home after being in an office all day, when we walk in the door, it's a signal to our brain of, relax, chill out, hang out, have a snack, right?

And we design our spaces in order to facilitate that mood. And same thing with the office. You guys would be absolutely blown away that the money and time that is invested into corporate design, because it's all about fueling productivity and managing output and really inspiring your brain to be very, very focused. And so yeah, we, I mean, we've created these environments for one or the other. And so now putting them into both and trying to have that intense focus and productivity in an environment that is designed to help us relax and, and, you know, be our very personal selves, it's a mind meld. And so yeah, we've got to give our brains a little bit of time to adjust accordingly, but we can help that along with routines and be more focused on the ways in which we, like our personal workflows and processes, help us change our mind shift as opposed to our environment.

[35:07] Paul: One interesting thing, or one opportunity I would say is, and I think this is important as companies make this dramatic shift or are thinking about it, is how do you create more space for deep work, right? I think this is one of the biggest opportunities of remote work, such that people can work on something deeply for 3 to 4 hours. And the meeting, to me, seems like the biggest opportunity. I think we've just gotten so used to in-person meetings that they build up. You get them— nobody takes away meetings from the calendar. You only add more meetings.

Right, so we almost need like a meeting jubilee for the start of remote working. And I love the idea of just take using this as a hard look at saying like, what meetings do we actually need? Let's validate that we actually need everyone and like start with none, add the meetings back. Um, have you seen companies free up more time for their workers by eliminating meetings?

[36:14] Laurel Farrer: Absolutely. In fact, GitHub has a really great article on this, and I, and I reference it often because it so closely reflects my own values, which are that we can't really convert the physical work dynamic into a virtual work dynamic effectively. And that's where we see a lot of companies going wrong. Just saying, okay, we're gonna take everything that we did in the office, and we're just gonna translate that into virtual meetings and Slack channels and things like that. And that's okay. However, yeah, I mean, you're gonna be shocked at how much time you're wasting if you do that.

And it's really pretty incompatible, and in the long term, you're gonna see a lot of problems. So what GitHub recommends, and, which is just perfect. They articulated it so well, which is use this as an opportunity to take a step back and evaluate how work is being done in the office and using this as an opportunity for improvement. Like, okay, we had all of these meetings every day, and we now are translating this into a new virtual workplace. Is it worth keeping, right? Like, think of this as like de-junking the closet, and this is where we're taking everything out and deciding what is the most valuable put back in and in which format and how are we going to store it?

And it's a, it's a really, really great exercise for your team. And so, because of that, your team, when working remotely, can have so much more deep headspace and more productivity, not only because they are cut off from the, the busy distracting office environment, but because you've taken the time to also simplify the logistics of their schedules and their roles and really cleared up a lot of that time as well. So, and again, that communication charter from Slack and things like that all give them permission to say, cool, I'm gonna have a couple of meetings in the morning to, you know, check in on what I'm supposed to be doing and check in with this client and set my priorities.

And then I'm gonna turn my notifications off and I'm not gonna be distracted by anybody or anything other than, you know, my dog that's sleeping next to me, and I'm going to just zero in and focus for a couple of hours. Like, what opportunity do we have to do that in the office? Like, we don't. So yeah, remote work is really something that can and should be leveraged. Like, cool, I want to give my team more deep headspace times to increase creativity and innovation and critical thinking. So I'm going to let them work offsite more often.

And give them that space. But oh, I should also add though, that, that deep headspace comes in different places and different scenarios for different people. So for me, it ironically, it's actually going out into public is when I get that deep headspace because I am really, really introverted. And so I want to get out of there as quickly as possible. So I like put my earbuds in and like shut people out because I'm uncomfortable, right? And so I like, I kind of like withdraw into myself and really focus and get really amazing results really, really quickly.

And then I can go back to my home office, which is where I feel more comfortable and also more casual. And so I'm like, oh, okay, this is where I have fun meetings and collaborative brainstorming and, and, and, you know, get my, my usual work done. But if I really want some deep headspace, I go out. So if we have this workplace flexibility, leverage it, capitalize on it and say, okay, not just, you know, I'm going to go home and get that deep headspace, but where do I go as an, again, that unique empowerment, right? Where do I go to get my best work done? And, and what is the workplace that I choose because I have the permission to choose that in my company.

[40:26] Paul: Yeah, I love that. I've also seen people change the entire purpose of meetings from— and a lot of, a lot of companies just use meetings for thinking, and a lot of remote companies realize that the thinking should actually be done before the meeting. And they do this in a few ways. They either say, come to the meeting with a decision or your view or your stance on that next steps or kind of write up your perspective on a certain problem and prepare it before the meeting. This obviously takes a lot more work but can often make the meetings a lot shorter, right? If you're just saying, all right, we're gonna have a 15-minute meeting, write up your view on how the project is going or where we're headed, and then share that before everyone reads all the memos, and then we'll use the 15 minutes to figure out what's next.

Whereas a lot of times, I mean, a lot of companies are using meetings to say, well, just show up and then we'll just kind of like think out loud, which tends to favor people who are good at thinking on their feet or just tend to dominate a room, which I am terrible at that. Like, I need time to disconnect and like think for a few hours to like know what I actually think. Yeah, I've gotten better at that, but I think there's a real opportunity in how we're thinking about thinking and like the purpose of what meetings are actually for.

[41:59] Laurel Farrer: Yeah, I can completely agree. In fact, we see a lot of great results from that, such as neurodiversity, right? People that need more cognitive processing time or just have personality diversity, right? Like more introverts have more of a voice because it's an equal playing field. So we see great results from that, but we— this also comes back to that cleaning out the closet analogy of shifting to remote work can and should be so much about assessing needs. What needs to be done in the office versus what can be done independently.

What needs to be done and talked about synchronously versus what can be done asynchronously, right? It's just constantly filtering information. Is this something that I need to talk about with somebody, talk about with somebody else and should I ping them on Slack and risk interrupting them? Or can I do this myself? Right? Like there's just so much filtering that needs to happen on a daily and even, you know, minute-by-minute basis in remote work.

And it helps us really evaluate what we're doing as opposed to just going through the motions, showing up in the office, sitting down at the desk and, you know, just doing our work like we always have. It really is an chance to, to evaluate and to innovate.

[43:23] Paul: What are some of the practical conversations or advice you're giving to companies in these couple of weeks? What are you telling them to think about? What are some of the questions people are coming to you with?

[43:40] Laurel Farrer: The questions that I'm getting are, are there's a wide variety, let's say. And ironically, my response is usually, hey, look, right now I'm learning too. We as remote work consultants and thought leaders, our, our primary message about going into remote work and adopting a virtual operation infrastructure is that in order to be successful, it requires intention and preparation. And so to throw everybody in, in an emergency situation is not something that we are prepared for. And so we are frantically trying to collect answers as well and to consolidate our knowledge for, you know, just Band-Aid situations. So that being said, in these couple of weeks of consolidating and adjusting all of the methodologies and processes that we use at Distribute Consulting, it really boils down to that skill set.

Again, that even if nothing else, like even if you don't have the tool, like tool change management, don't touch it. Like that is a multiple week, if not multiple month process, and you cannot expect your team to adopt a new tool and all go remote in the same 2 days. Like Don't, don't even try. So coming back to just those skills of stay engaged with your team, communicate with them, stay together, stay unified, and use tools that you're comfortable with, and that will get you through this. So it really does circle back to that, that soft skill set. Just stay together and through communication and talk about what you need, talk about what's going well, talk about what's not going well, and that will get you through at least the emergency phase until you can make a more comprehensive plan with the adequate preparation and intention.

But communicate, communicate, communicate. That is, that's the emergency plan right now.

[45:54] Paul: I love that, and I also appreciate your humility around this. I think I think that's one of the most exciting things for me around the remote work conversation is that the most interesting companies and thinking around this is all with such a deep sense of humility, acknowledging we're probably 10% in on this journey.

[46:19] Laurel Farrer: Yeah.

[46:19] Paul: And we're figuring it out as we go. I mean, you have companies like GitLab and Basecamp, which have like their operating code, their handbook, which is continually under edit. So like anyone can edit these handbooks and update it and kind of evolve the processes. And that's the most exciting thing for me is that it positions the organization more as an emergent organization, which is probably much more what they're designed to be than these top-down hierarchical beasts, which they've kind of been forced into. But yeah, it's early and it's exciting and there's so much opportunity. And I think to the companies out there making the shift, just like stay humble.

It's going to be frustrating and stay open to kind of what emerges within your company.

[47:13] Laurel Farrer: Flexibility is one of those critical skills in remote work, and these have been academically researched and proven by Roberto Sawatzky. This is, I mean, flexibility is one of those critical traits for a reason, is because of exactly this. Like, this is, this is new. I mean, yes, teleworking has been around since the '70s, but 50 years in the terms of, you know, the history of business, that's, we're in our infancy. And so there's always new tools to use. There's always new methods.

There's always new learnings. It's really critical to to be flexible, and companies are screening new candidates for that skill of flexibility for exactly this scenario. It's like, look, if things change, which they are going to, are you going to be able to keep up with us? And so that's, yeah, it's an interesting shift in the business world in general that, you know, for so long we've been built on dependency and tradition and structure and, you know, all of the tried and true, like, especially in the '80s and '90s, like, that was part of our mindset and our branding, right? Like, established in 1801, right? Like, we wanted and needed that sense of permanency.

But now it's just changing. It's like, no, look, this is the future of work, is that we— that dependency was what our you know, international business world needed in, you know, post-war sociological ripple effects to, in order to just give us a sense of safety and security. But now that we have that safety and security, now we can take a little bit more risk and embrace a new way of working that is more innovative and creative.