Screw The Cubicle With A Side Of Pineapple (Lydia Lee)

[01:39] Paul: Today I'm talking with Lydia Lee. She is a corporate escape coach, a title I love, and helps people escape and reimagine beyond the shackles of conventional work. She joins me from Bali today. Welcome to the podcast, Lydia.

[02:01] Lydia Lee: Thank you so much for having me, Paul. It's great to chat with you.

[02:04] Paul: Super excited to talk to you today. I think I see a lot of things that resonate in your path with mine and Excited to dig into that, but just curious now to learn more about you first. What was Lydia Lee like growing up?

[02:22] Lydia Lee: God, it depends on which stage of life I was in. I was quite a crazy kid in the sense of, you know, what I would now know, you know, Emily Wapnick from Multipotentialite does a lot of work around multipotentials, but I was sort of a multipotentialite child in the sense of that I had tons of interests in different areas. I think a lot of listeners that are probably listening to this are going, "Yep, that's me as well." My corporate resume actually reflected that sort of bipolar personality that I had with trying new things all the time or needing to be stimulated in different areas all the time. So I don't really fit in the sort of traditional box of that linear way of growing up where a kid might be just interested in something for a very long time and then end up going to school for it and then go forth and get out there and climb that corporate ladder.

So my mom would probably tell you I was someone someone that would pick up hobbies and pick up interests. Like, I want to learn to play the piano, I want to learn to do this and that, you know, really quickly, and then drop it after 2 weeks and try something new. So I was a bit more of an experimenter, I think, as a child. And thank goodness, as you're a child, no one really judges you on these decisions until you're an adult, where I obviously had my own identity crisis, you know, as a young adult. But as a child, you know, it was some— I was a dibbler and dabbler, someone that dips into lots of different, uh, hobbies and interests. And, you know, growing up, I, I was born in Malaysia, in Penang, you know, the mecca of great Southeast Asian food.

I'm a bit biased, but it truly is the best food in Southeast Asia. Uh, and it's a little island, you know, not much to do. We moved to Kuala Lumpur when I was about 6 years old. So I spent about 2 years in the big city there. Uh, and then my family immigrated to Vancouver. Originally we planned to go to Montreal because we had family there, but we couldn't learn French in 9 months, which was the prerequisite to get citizenship.

My poor mother, uh, just could not pass the test. Yeah, they needed you to be fluent in French in 9 months, which is quite a hard A hard one to, to deal with. Uh, but you know, the good thing is we did end up going to Vancouver. Uh, so I was there, uh, at about 8, 9 years old. So primarily I grew up in, uh, the suburbs of Vancouver. And, uh, obviously I now live in, uh, Bali, but majority of my life has been there.

Um, yeah. And I think as a kid, you know, I, I like to play with different ideas. I love to experiment. There was a lot of pretend games I had in my home, trying on almost like, you know, I have— I always remembered, um, lining up my teddy bears in a line and becoming like a weather girl or a talk show host or a cooking show host. There's always something about hosting and teaching or having my own show that seems to be the tie that binds some of these little interests together. But I loved to sort of pretend, to take on different hats and roles, which I think really stimulated my interest.

And I think as an adult now, looking back on how that sort of pattern as a child of mine, really did bring me lots of happiness and joy. And the ability to do it in a small capacity in my business, in my life, is also quite exciting now.

[05:22] Paul: Yeah. Was there a time, I mean, even reflecting back now, when you first experienced that tension of liking multiple things and people, maybe other people telling you, "You need to focus," right? You always hear this. You need to focus. You need to pick one thing. You need to get serious.

Different phrases I've heard over the years. Was there a moment where you kind of ran up against that tension?

[05:45] Lydia Lee: Yeah, I think after high school, when you do have to kind of pick a degree, that's always a hard road, isn't it? It's like you're an adult, you just got out of high school. I mean, for you to make that decision about where your life should go at a mere age of 17 years old is lots of pressure. I don't think we do it very well traditionally when we help young adults reach that decision. Even if they've been going to college or university for 2 years and do change their major or decide that actually university isn't for me, we should have much more open conversations about that more instead of the guilty, shameful way of going, wait a second, you've picked this, which you should keep going in that trajectory. And then, you know, here we go.

Now people are probably having to pay me to get them out of that corporate job again. Right? So I think, you know, partly is that, you know, as parents, and I don't blame my parents for this, you know, my parents are immigrant people. You know, they gave up a lot to give me an opportunity in Canada. Canada to have an education. Um, and they wanted the best for me.

And I think the intention was pure, uh, and it was, uh, out of love, right? But I, I definitely never got those open questions to be like, is this what you want to do? Do you want to do that? Um, I, I sort of went into the marketing route for tourism. That was sort of my degree, right? Marketing for tourism.

Uh, because I sort of felt, hey, that gave me some variety. I could work in hotels, I could work in any tourist, you know, locations. I could switch it up a little bit as long as it's customer-facing, I'm doing well. But then the hours of hotel work and that sort of seasonal product didn't work for me either. And it was hard to leave what I had my degree for and then go into different industries like publishing and real estate development, all the different things on my resume without the sort of cockeyed look from my mother going, "Are you switching jobs again?" So every 2 years was probably my maximum. That I could last in a corporation except for my last job.

So that was sort of a good clue that I was someone that needed variety.

[07:47] Paul: That's fascinating. So I'm operating on the 2-year timeframe as well.

[07:51] Lydia Lee: Oh yeah, yeah. I think it seems 2 years seems to be the thing. And it doesn't— don't they say that about relationships too? It's something like if you can get over the 2-year hump and you can live with someone for 2 years, you've got a chance.

[08:02] Paul: I don't think I ever had the chance in the corporate world.

[08:05] Lydia Lee: Right. Yeah. And so, you know, it happens to a lot of people and I think, you know, people experience it all the time. Do we talk about it as often? Often maybe not, because we don't want to feel the shame of having $100,000 student loan debt and have nothing to show for it. So we do tend to sort of keep on going, even if the path where it's leading us may not always be exactly how we imagined it to be from the get-go.

[08:28] Paul: Yeah, it's interesting hearing you just reflect on choosing your major. I'm thinking back to my major, and my major was really hard for other people to understand, because it was this new— dual degree program.

[08:41] Lydia Lee: Right.

[08:42] Paul: And I think maybe deep down I like that because I could just map whatever I wanted on top, top of it. So in college, you're experimenting with different things and basically realizing you like doing different things, or at least you're shifting every once in a while. Did you, you still ended up going to the corporate world? How did you think about that?

[09:06] Lydia Lee: I didn't think there was an alternative. I mean, everyone around me, my friends, My classmates, everyone around me was doing that. And even when you did complain on a Friday evening at the pub about how shitty your boss is or how crap your job is, I mean, it was sort of like normalized that you're not supposed to like your work. Uh, not all the time anyway, you know? And, um, this is just what you do as a responsible adult, you know, is that you pay the bills and you get a mortgage and, you know, you go and hopefully get married and have babies and, you know, you follow that traditional trajectory of what what society potentially has defined as a successful and happy life. You know, um, so that was, you know, I, I think what, what, what I mean by normalized is that you don't— you, you only know what you know, right?

And you don't know what you don't know. So you, you're— it's sort of that, um, you know, biasness and also that echo chamber, right, of the community around you that tells you what's possible and what's normal and what's, you know, responsible, right? So I think every human can, can absolutely relate to that until something changes, right? Whether it's like my story was, you know, it changed when I had a burnout, right? Which forced me to reflect, right? And rethink my steps.

Or sometimes people do it in a much more less stressful way and it doesn't require a burnout. Like they go on a sabbatical, you know, and they travel and they find their route and direction through time and space, you know, and new experiences. And that's why I really love travel as a tool. To figure that out. But sometimes we do have to get out of our existing communities, existing environments to learn an alternative path to a different life.

[10:45] Paul: Were there people you met or ideas you were exposed to in your corporate journey before you took the leap that gave you maybe an inkling of saying, "Okay, maybe there's a different path"?

[10:55] Lydia Lee: Yeah, totally. At the time, I didn't have Facebook, I think, or I wasn't using Facebook very much. I didn't connect with him past that, but I took a holiday back to Penang, actually, to see— I hadn't I hadn't been back home since I immigrated when I was 9 years old. So I went there in sort of like mid-20s and did a 2-month sort of trip there. And I actually went to Langkawi, which is an island sort of not far from Penang. I was on a boat with this German guy.

And he was talking to me about his work and he said he could do this on a digital level. He was a marketing coordinator or a marketing specialist. And I said, how do you do this? Like traveling, like you're living in Southeast Asia. 6 months out of the year, 6 months in Berlin, you know, and you're running this agency, right, that you have in Berlin full of contractors, right? How do you do this from the internet?

Like, this was still like, I had no idea about digital nomadism. I read The 4-Hour Workweek like once at the time and sort of like loved the concept, loved Tim Ferriss, but then all the case studies in there were like coders and programmers and dropshippers. And, you know, like I didn't see myself as that techie of a person. So I could be, I wasn't as attracted to that way of making a living perhaps. And then there's this guy that actually did a vocation or career that was really much more similar to mine, right, in marketing. And so being able to meet him in real life and then have discussions with him over dinner to go, oh, okay, so there's this new thing where you can contract yourself out for projects.

You could, you know, have a business online and attract a global audience and work from your laptop if you're organized and, and, and good enough to do that, right? And that the service-based, um, model can be done, uh, without being in a physical environment. right? Which wasn't something I was used to, obviously. Like, I never— like, why would anyone pay me to Skype me? Like, that, that was like so beyond my, my reality, right?

But that was sort of, you know, the power of meeting someone in person, right? That you can touch and feel and not just read about and actually get to pick their brain on what that looks like, how they got started. And that made it really real for me, right? And then so that was— that seed was planted. And then when I went back to— I still went back to corporate, right? You know, So reread The 4-Hour Workweek again, uh, and applied the concepts more to the way that I would love to sort of do my lifestyle.

And then, um, about 6 months after that, that's when I had the, you know, infamous burnout moment in Russia, you know, on a business trip where I basically had a meltdown, right? I was exhausted. I had not like taken a holiday, like besides that, um, you know, for 5 years when I was working there, I didn't take a holiday. Like every year I would give up my yearly holiday pay— sorry, holiday time to get paid so I could pay off my student loans, right? Trying to be financially responsible and so forth, you know. And I never took time off for myself.

I was working 60 hours a week, right? I was constantly, um, really thinking about work the whole time, had no wellness and well-being. And of course, that caught up to me, you know. And that moment was a breakdown, but it was also a breakthrough in a lot of ways because it sort of forced me through that painful experience to reevaluate, to actually take a pause rather than go on autopilot and continue to do what I was doing, to actually take a real pause and look at the things I was really spending my time doing and was it leading me to a life experience that I was proud to have or not?

[14:15] Paul: Yeah. So maybe talk to me a little bit more about that experience in Russia. Was there a moment or was it just kind of like a deeper feeling of saying, this is not the life I want to be following.

[14:31] Lydia Lee: Yeah. The feeling of the, the, this might, this doesn't seem right of how I feel is, has been happening to me for years. Right. But every time it was sort of band, band-aided, if that's a word, by a promotion or by more money. Right. And it's really easy.

[14:46] Paul: Job changes, right?

[14:47] Lydia Lee: Yeah. You know, and there's all these carrots, isn't it? And then whenever you start a new job as well, just like starting a new relationship, there's sort of like a fresh newness. To things and then you go about again and then 2 years later you're fucked off again. But that moment did hit me actually on a physical level. So by that time, so my job back in the day was in international education.

I worked for a really big private school in Canada that also had schools in the States. And I worked a lot with the government of Canada to promote education, traditional education in Canada. So I was on the road a lot in like expos and big conventions and so forth, right? Making relationships with agencies globally in Europe and in Europe. Sorry. So I was actually in Russia about to do a trade mission, you know, in Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey, you know, to do this combined effort to promote education.

And by this time I was probably already 3 weeks on the road, right? Jet lagged in, you know, in so many ways living out of hotel rooms. And I was supposed to go on another, you know, back-to-back 12 appointments for the day, right, to sell the thing. And it's like winter, right?

[15:53] Paul: It's like stressed here.

[15:54] Lydia Lee: It was so cold. People weren't really nice to me there. You know, Moscow is quite a gritty, hard city to be in to begin with, right? Um, and I think it was a combination of all that, but I developed temporary like agoraphobia in the hotel room where I like had such a panic attack of like— it sort of came out of nowhere. It was the weirdest thing. It sort of— I woke up, I was like making my breakfast, whatever, or getting breakfast from the hotel.

And then I just didn't want to leave this hotel room. I felt this, like, sense of, like, dread to get out there. And then this panic— I've had panic attacks before, and it felt like that. And it felt really scary because I was alone in a foreign country. But I think a lot of it was exhaustion, actually. It was like not sleeping, flying all the time, time zone changes.

Like, all of that on a physical level took its toll, you know. And I called my boyfriend at the time and was like, I don't want to go out there, I want to come home, I don't want to be here by myself. And I just had a freakout, you know. And he's like, you're always on the ball, you're organized, like maybe you're just having a bit of an anxiety attack, you know. And that did— I didn't need to go home, you know, but that was still some time off and a mini sabbatical I had to do, which I thought was a sort of mental unwellness for me, like exhaustion. But luckily when I, you know, seeked help from a therapist, right, during a time like that, it was really great to work with someone that didn't just shove a bunch of pills down my throat, you know, but instead helped me to question myself on particular challenges I was experiencing.

And was it just exhaustion or was it other things that are at play that I really needed to highlight and sort of pay attention to in my life?

[17:29] Paul: Wow. That is a lot to handle.

[17:35] Lydia Lee: It is. Yeah. And I think your body tells you, right? The body's the first thing that— your mind might just kind of keep going. I'm a high achiever. I'm Type A.

So I'm like, yeah, yeah, I can keep going. Nothing feels exhausting. But then your body kind of doesn't lie. Your mind can lie to you a lot, but your body doesn't. So it was listening to those signals and it had to put me down in a lot of ways because I think I was exhausted for many, many months and many years before that, but it sort of took a much more aggressive approach, if you will, for me to actually wake up.

[18:04] Paul: Yeah. It's fascinating hearing this. I mean, I hear similar things from some people I've worked with and I don't know if you've read any of David Whyte, but he calls— He's a poet and he writes about the corporate working world and he calls about, he talks about how we ignore our body's call for just rest and like it's screaming out and we distract ourselves with these easily quantifiable like, right, it's the promotions, the extrinsic success and the body is just saying like, no, we need to rest. We need space for creativity. We need time for ourselves.

[18:45] Lydia Lee: Or when I'm out with Netflix, right? And look forward to the weekend, right? That's sort of, again, very normalized, like Friday feeling, right? We've got the weekend and that's all we've got. And then right Sunday at 7:00 PM, it's like the worst time for me. Cause you know, you're about to go back to work and I have this sense of depression every Sunday, but again, you normalize it cause that's what everyone else is doing too.

And so you don't even complain about it in a lot of ways. And, and, you know, um, I think, I think there's something quite, um, dangerous about that complacency because a lot of us that live in the first world, it's not as, you know, sometimes we need a bit of pain, but it's not painful enough a lot of times for people to change. I certainly did not. I would love to say that I had an epiphany and a Gandhi moment here and was like, I need to take control of my life. But no, I didn't. You know, I didn't take control of my life.

I was complacent and it required this force of nature to push me. Right. And hence why I do talk a bit about this unsexy part of burnout because people need to realize the signs. They need to actually explore what that is about without actually pushing under the rug and going, oh, it's just I had a long week, you know, especially if it's occurring often.

[19:50] Paul: Yeah, there's, there's research, I think from the NIH in the US, showing that burnout is almost very close to depression, but very specific to all like workplace behaviors. So people can ignore it because people actually are able to have that burnout and then temporarily escape it. But you can never really escape it in the long run.

[20:18] Lydia Lee: Yeah. And don't you also notice like burnout is, you know, what I really figured out like during my, my stint with my therapist, right? Is that like at first it was just like a physical thing. Oh, maybe I need more sleep. Maybe I need to stop traveling so much. Maybe I need to renegotiate my role to be less on the road and more at home.

And those are some practical pragmatic things for sure to do. But I think a lot of the burnout for me too was that I was a creative person. I didn't want to sell something that I didn't believe in. And one of the kind of key nuggets that came from my conversation with my therapist was that I was actually selling a product, which is traditional education, which is actually a thing I don't believe in. Because she's like, "Hey, do you care about what you're selling? Does it matter to you?" Because some people can do the sales thing and they're happy with that.

I was someone that's built to like, if I was gonna go out there and like put my time into it, I needed to believe in the thing I was doing. And it did affect my joy. It did affect my fulfillment and satisfaction about that job. So if I was trying to make my numbers, right, a lot of my, my money, my six-figure salary was, was from commissions, right? From extra commissions that were on top of my salary. Uh, and I was chasing those commissions.

So in a way, in a way, trying to sell a bunch of stuff that I don't believe in to make the numbers, which in turn caused this feeling of guilt and, and this feeling of unfulfillment, right? Which is so much more than the physical level. Uh, and, and so that also made me realize that I actually like to work there. Like, I'm not someone that loves to escape work. I want, I am a contributor. I love to create things.

I love to produce. And that's what makes me a great worker bee, right? In, in other people's businesses, right? In corporations. But, you know, for me on a fundamental level, what causes inspiration and the ability to wake up and do the thing and keep going and have creative ideas is if I am I'm personally aligned with the thing that I'm doing. So it was very, very clear to me that that was also one of the key factors that was causing the burnout, causing the mental anguish and the distress that translated into a physical thing.

[22:17] Paul: Yeah, that's so powerful. I think it's something I've realized. When I was in the corporate world, I don't think I identified it as there is a lack of creative expression, but now I kind of see in realizing the creative expression, it's like, oh my God, I am so alive. In this moment.

[22:34] Lydia Lee: Yeah. Um, but you know, counting down the clock, right? Like when you're actually doing work, you're, you're creatively inspired about, you know, you're not like, oh my God, I have to interview Lydia. Shit. No, it was really another hour.

[22:46] Paul: I was really pumped about this. But, um, so turning that on its head though, I think the challenge I've had is convincing people that that transformation can happen for anyone. Right. And at its core, it kind of is a leap of faith in saying that, like, there might be something better on this other side of the leap. Maybe a story from your own leap or ways you've worked with clients to help convince them of this. Do you have any suggestions or stories?

[23:21] Lydia Lee: Yeah, great question. You know, I agree that you can't convince people that don't want to be convinced.

[23:28] Paul: Right.

[23:28] Lydia Lee: Right. So, so for example, like, I am only interested, I'm sure you are too, to talk to people that have already been questioning, you know, their whole point of existence, right? Like, so if someone's happy at their job, like, you know, my mom's been at HSBC for 35 years, like, she is happy. She just got her pension. She's retired early. She's happy as a clam.

And she actually loves to work for someone else. And the idea of being an entrepreneur and idea of actually even living abroad, she's like, uh, not for me, you know? And that's not someone that I would ever be like, no, no, no, your life sucks. You should actually really, you know, it's not entrepreneur— entrepreneurship is not—

[24:01] Paul: I agree.

[24:02] Lydia Lee: Yeah. Right. And entrepreneurship is also not the only factor that can cause happiness. It can be a tool to be used to gain freedom and flexibility and right, your own independent creativity. Uh, but not everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. Right.

And the great thing about the future of work is that it's not only filled with entrepreneurs is, is, you know, even organizations are expanding into a remote working environment, right? Office space costs too much, right? Insurance costs too much. Like people are stuck 2 hours a day in commutes. Like we realize this and actually it's much more affordable and much more better at the bottom line and happiness of your employees to actually potentially restructure to a more remote working environment. And it's brilliant to see this implemented a lot more than usual.

You know, you can freelance, you can consult, you can still be employed and be remote, you know? So the opportunities are a lot more available in the time and age that we're in. But in terms of, you know, like, you know, you can lead the horse to the water, but you can't force the horse to drink, right? So I think the idea of convincing is more about like actually showcasing The possibilities, not just an inspirational level, like not just like showing a bunch of great Instagram shots of you working by the beach and having a martini at hand, because that's great, but not helpful. You know, it's really about like, what do we need to do today in the smallest step to help to increase your courage, right?

Like to ease you into the bravery of taking one tiny step, because too big of a leap actually makes people go back in corporate, and too big of a leap makes people do kind of foolhardy decisions, you know, without looking at their finances and looking at the wellbeing of their life in order to make micro decisions more effectively. Right? So what I always sort of talk about with my clients who are like, okay, I know I wanna leave my job. I know that I'm completely distressed and I wanna do something on my own independently. Like, what do I need to do? Do I quit today?

You know? And like, just move to Bali like you? Like, and I'm like, no, please don't quit. Like, don't quit. Because actually when you look at like, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs at the bottom baseline is like survival needs, right? Shelter, food, community, a sense of belongingness, right?

Family. Like we need to have that intact in a lot of ways before we can go into the second level, right? Of creativity and ideas and exploration. Because if we don't feel safe at the sort of grounds level of our lives, like forget about creativity. Like if you feel like you can't feed yourself and you've got debt problems, like the last thing your brain wants to go into and your heart wants to go into is like creative projects. You know, because your day-to-day survival is threatened in a lot of ways.

So in this part, it's like, I call it like the preparation to leap, right? Before you even think about business ideas or like what side hustle you want to start, let's just like get your, um, you know, day-to-day life like fixed up and better, right? That might actually require you to renegotiate how you do things at work. It might be a role change. It might actually be like budgeting and saving up money. It might be downsizing from a 5-bedroom house to a 2-bedroom condo, you know, to have much more disposable income.

There's conversations to have with your spouse about a potential change coming up. There's a time of exploration to see what skill sets you may want to leverage as talents for a side hustle. So there's a lot of this preparation of an environment that's not very sexy, but it is the sort of nice foundation to leap from, right? When you can feel safe that— and I had to do that too. It was 9 months of a leap zone for me to quit, to prepare my finances and to prepare my side hustle to be ready for quitting. You know, I don't recommend people to take that leap fully right away.

Do it when you're actually working. Like, great. If you, unless you have like a silver spoon in your mouth or you saved really well where you can live like with no income for a year or something, like go for it. Life is short, right? But if you've got family, you know, if you've got debt, right, that's a really different thing. And there's no cookie cutter formula for something like that.

But you do need to take, take account your financial status and how you can better that in order to effectively, right, leave your job and bring in a different type of income. Or live off your savings for a certain amount of time to be able to take a sabbatical, right? Or some time off if necessary. So where I sort of advise people on is like, do that preparation, do that unsexy work because your wellbeing will thank you. And actually this is sort of preparing your platform for creativity to happen where you're less likely going to have your egocentric mind going, but what if this, and what if we don't feed ourselves and what if, you know, and then you have like no room to to sort of go, what would I like to create? Like, you know, like there's no room for that when you're under stress.

Right. And so that's the unsexy part to really focus on. And then when you can do that step, it's like micro steps of like testing out, like almost like trying on a different hat. Like, especially if you're a multi-passionate person like me and you, like there might be different skills. Like I look at my resumes, like for 5 people, I've got like so many different skills. Right.

And I have to sort of look at patterns and themes. Like that's what I do a lot for my clients now, sort of see how their roles actually intersect. And look at our jobs as less about job titles, but more about like, what is the service and what is the sort of ingredients of great work that appears in actually multiple roles that you have? And it's taking that time to really reflect how each job actually had a purpose and had a benefit. And how can that assist you in creating something new in your body of work? And it might be a different industry.

It might be different a certain title you give yourself, but it's almost like an accumulation of your knowledge and experience that can help you towards your next big thing. But make it in microsteps. And if you're doing things in microsteps, you're not going to be afraid to take the leap because they're calculated risks. Because most of us are not the, I'll jump off a cliff and hope the parachute opens kind of people. We're not like the Steve Jobs of the world. We're not Elon Musk.

Right? Those guys are crazy and they're amazing. But regular people like you and I don't do that. Right? Kind of take these micro steps to, again, ease ourselves into the courage we need.

[29:50] Paul: Yeah, I, I know in my journey I did a bunch of small experiments in which I gave myself permission to quit. Yeah, it's basically just to find things, okay, I'm gonna learn. And then it's basically like 5 or 6 experiments where I quit them, and I was like, okay, I need to do big, bigger and more outside of the corporate world. But, um, did you— were there any experiments that stood out for you before you took Yeah, totally.

[30:17] Lydia Lee: I started, like, I thought I would be a copywriter. I was like, I love writing and I wrote a lot of the sales pages for my corporate background and wrote a lot of sort of pitches and things like that. And I do love the spoken word, but actually when I tested actually writing on some projects, I actually didn't like writing for other people.

[30:36] Paul: Right.

[30:37] Lydia Lee: I like writing for myself and it was like a flow that I could have because it's my ideas and it came from something I had to cultivate more holistically. But when it's like other people's thoughts and I have to turn it into something salesy or like, you know, engaging, I don't know, something about that, it didn't really hit the mark for me, you know? And so that's great for me to have tested something like that, for example, as a freelancer, you know, because I didn't put all my eggs in that basket and build a website and, you know, an email list and all this stuff and then realize, shit, I didn't wanna do this anyway, you know? So there's this sort of what I call the beta test period, right? It's a validation period where you actually, you're allowed to, just as you did, like you're allowed to actually choose a few things.

And even if you're like, okay, I don't know if I could take on some paid projects I'm not really sure what my skillset level is yet, but I wanna trial it out. Well, geez, offer it, offer it to a couple people for free and actually do it wholeheartedly as if this person is a paid client and give it your all to sort of look at your processes and look at how you might approach that work and measure yourself up, you know, to where your level of expertise should be. Or potentially it might even tell you that I need to educate myself more. I need to take a class or I need to be trained better, but I am interested. I I'm, you know, this sort of gave me some light in my belly. And that again, can't be cultivated unless you do the thing, right?

Lots of people are like, how do I find my passions? Like, I'm sorry, but like, you just gotta do, you go to the, yeah, if something, an inclination comes to you, just like I did, like, I think I wanna write for people. Yeah. And you just sort of have to do it right with a timeline. Like, don't go forever on it, but like, I'm gonna spend the next 30 days just writing to 5 sample projects and just see if I like doing that. You know?

And then you can sort of stop at 30 days and go and reflect, right? Did I like that craft? Would I, can I see myself investing time learning more and improving my expertise and mastering that craft? You know, did I enjoy the customers that I helped? Did I like the types of pieces of projects that I was writing on? Did I like more biographies versus sales pages?

Like, you know, like it gives you that more meat in a way to gauge where your interest lies before you actually go out there and build a business around it, which I think is super important for people to realize that this is an important beta process step.

[32:44] Paul: So you wrote a bit about your leap and transition, and you said you wrote the phrase, I had to navigate an identity crisis and deal with the legacy of my previous resume. So how were you processing that as you started, as you took, after you took your leap?

[33:04] Lydia Lee: Yeah, so Screw the Cubicle was not my first business, right? It was an accidental business, uh, in a beautiful way, right?

[33:11] Paul: Like, wait, I want to pause there because I think that's a really interesting, um, thing that I've seen in a lot of freelancers is that they're so— they think they need to know exactly what they're going to be doing, right? And in essence, they're trying to create like another job for themselves. Um, but what I've seen is a lot of people get out there, they experiment with this freedom, and then radically shift to something else like 6 months down the line. So that's really cool that you're highlighting that. So maybe a little more around that and then we can dive back into that other question.

[33:45] Lydia Lee: Definitely. So the first business I created was actually a transition business from the industry I was in, right? Except that— sorry for my cough— instead of marketing sort of like traditional education, I was, because I already had the contacts, right? So that was a sort of low-hanging fruit idea for me, right? I've already accumulated almost like social equity, right? With my colleagues and industry partners and so forth, right?

And where I sort of started a business around is becoming a middleman, an agency that was sort of like someone that customized educational tours. So there could be like summer camps or winter camps, like skiing and learning a skill for a university student or a college student. And I marketed to, primarily China and Taiwan, which is sort of an emerging market in international education at the time, and leverage some of that missing gaps of opportunity that I found out when I was an employee in the industry. So it was very niched. It was sort of a boutique agency. It brought me some good income.

It wasn't six figures, but it was a good chunk of money for me to be able to quit. And I worked on projects by project. So there were sort of gaps in time. That was freelancing. Thing, you know, when big active projects weren't going on, but it was enough to pay the bills. Right.

And that was enough for me to say, that's good enough for me to quit at that time. So 6 months down the road, as I'm working this business, um, I felt just like, as you said, I've created a job, right? It was like doing a bunch of stuff, like going to China and like really trying to make like really rich parents in China, like buy a program due to like them wanting to push their kid really hard, you know, uh, to like have American or North American experience, you know, they weren't interested interested so much in the development of their child in a positive way. Yeah. It's almost like, are you going to go do tours at Berkeley? Because I need to have that on his student application when he goes to university.

Right? And then I was having to again sell something to people that— and it wasn't the way I wanted to sell it. Right? But that market demanded, in a way, China demanded that the prerequisites for them to say yes to something like that was around credentials. And it was around these sorts of— it's all about the names of the schools and the sort of things like that. And then it made me fall out of love again.

And I remember going into a wave of depression because I'm like, well, shit, I thought the whole prescription for my burnout and dissatisfaction was being an entrepreneur. And here I was working from my underpants at home and having the ability to work from anywhere, and still I am feeling unsatisfied. And so I felt like a failure a little bit because it was like, oh God, what should I tell people now? I had made this whole hoo-ha about leaving and people were like, "Awesome, good for you." And here I am going, "I hate my job and I'm the boss." Like, you know, it was like kind of a shameful thing to admit. And to be honest, at the time, I didn't have anyone around me that were entrepreneurs either. So I didn't have support.

I didn't know who to talk to in a lot of ways. And I did have to hire a business coach to help me with that. But, you know, I didn't have peers around me that could help me sort of, you know, workshop what that was and what that maybe there was a reposition or something that needed to happen. And so what happened after that was that I started Screw the Cubicle as a blog. Blog of documenting this transition of what it felt like to go from a corporate employee to an entrepreneur and the sort of honest emotions that come with that rollercoaster ride, that you will come with lots of failures. And that first year is like 10 years of therapy.

It will challenge you in so many ways psychologically, and what it felt like to be an entrepreneur. Sometimes fall out of love with the things that you are creating and producing and what to do about that. And that's the whole point of the whole identity crisis problem, which was like, did I make a mistake? Did I pick the wrong business idea? Should I have not been so foolhardy and left so quickly? There's all these sort of questions that sort of came for me.

And that blog was sort of around that. And then it wasn't until someone from Toronto, a lawyer from Toronto emailed me who'd been reading my blogs, which I wasn't promoting that much at the time, and said, hey, do you coach people to get out of corporate and like help them find a different path? And I was like, what's a coach? And so like I had to Google it. And like, I was like, do I have to go back and be a therapist? I don't think I'm like way too blunt to be a therapist.

Like, you know, what, what does a coach entail? You know? And then I was like, do I want to coach? Well, I get really annoyed at people's problems. Like, you know, like you, we don't know. Right.

And that's the whole point of like trying the hat on, right? Trying that coach hat on. Put on and seeing how it feels. So I decided that, hey, if people got a lot of insight and encouragement from my blogs, I wonder what it would feel like to work with them more intimately. I wonder what it would feel like to answer nuanced questions that people have around their life. And I would be honest about what I can and can't help with.

So for example, I was very adamant that I did not help on business because who was I to help on business when I haven't started something sustainable? And I hate that when people do that. But what I can do and what I have experience in doing is that I understand the road to that, from that transition, what you have to prepare before you quit, what sorts of things are going to happen to you emotionally before you quit, and what are some pragmatic and practical ways to prepare for that leap and test out some ideas while you were still employed. So that was sort of my idea. I didn't know how I was going to do it, how many sessions that was going to be, how it was going to roll out. So I decided to experiment and take on 8 guinea pig clients for 2 months, right?

You got 60 days. We coach once a week. So basically you've got 8 sessions with me, right? I don't know yet how these sessions are gonna pan out, but what I will promise you is that I'm gonna give you as many of the resources and advice that I know. And I'm trying to be as present for you to not just like giving a formula of what to follow, but actually try to identify the right formula for your life and your way of, of approach. Coach, right?

Which did challenge me in a lot of ways to scale that, you know, in the beginning of time. But it really taught me to be a better coach, right? To not actually like, you just give people a step-by-step blueprint, but actually a lot more holistic about the concepts and to listen to the actual needs of these people, you know, and tailor the, the journey according to what they need, right? Which is a little bit more of a holistic approach. And then after taking on those 8 guinea pig clients, that's when I started to realize who I wanted I did not want to work with again, what issues and problems that I could solve confidently, what were issues I did not ever want to tackle again. And I had some clients that were really mentally depressed and really going through burnout that I would never work with again because they needed a therapist first in order to be ready for me.

But I could gauge that now. So it was a great little testing period for me to understand where I sat in the position of my coaching products, but also what I was wanting to be known for at the time. Time, right? You know, and that was, that was good.

[40:42] Paul: How did you find the 8 people? Did you charge them? Did you— how did you communicate what you were trying to do?

[40:49] Lydia Lee: So I did not charge them because to me this was an experiment and it was something I hadn't had any experience doing before. And there's no right or wrong answer in charging or not charging because it all depends, right? Certain people, like for example, I have a lot of clients that are like, let's say like nurses, you know, in a hospital for a while, and now they're going to to be a holistic practitioner, right? But they're actually still taking 20 years of experience, right, into their holistic practice, right, of health and wellness, let's say. They're not going from like, I wanna be, I'm a lawyer now, all of a sudden I'm a copywriter editor. Like, you know, very different skillset that actually might require you to master it or even create an internship, you know, sort of section of your experimentation to, right, master that craft.

So for me, I felt like I was in that beginner mode. Like I didn't have I didn't have any corporate experience or work experience that I could sort of bring to the table at the time, I thought, you know, uh, and I wanted to really do this in a low-pressure way. Cause again, I'm type A, I am a perfectionist. I know that if I put that big pressure of like, I charge and I have to meet the value of that price, I'm gonna start to like get frazzled. So I sort of just went, you know what, what if I just give myself this window of play, you know, like where I can make mistakes, I'm allowed to make mistakes, but it's okay. Cause I'm not charging any money, but I am going to be, I need committed people, right?

And I need them to know that I'm treating them as if they were paying clients, right? But they were going to be collaborative with me in exploring what this can look like. And they have to actually put in the work too, right? It's not a Lydia tells me what to do and then I'll do it kind of session. It's like, it's fully collaborative and you have to actually, you know, have goals in mind and you have to actually have to do the work, right? So I had to interview a few people in order to get the right ideal client.

Now finding those 8 clients, um, was more, again, very bootstrapped and very, um, holistic, right? It wasn't like a Facebook ad or whatever, you know, it was like me approaching like my own ecosystem of a network, right? Like, of course there's burnout people around me. Of course there's people dissatisfied with their lives. Like, you know, I already knew some of them. So like, you know, to make it easy for myself, I just actually approached these people privately.

[42:52] Paul: Yeah.

[42:53] Lydia Lee: And you know, they already knew about my journey. I already had social proof there in order, in the sense of what I was doing, And I said, hey, you know, like the other night I was talking to you about, you know, this and that about your job. And it sounds like you might need some help, you know, to do this. And like, surprisingly, I think I can help you. And I would like to test this out, you know, to see what can happen if I can help someone externally beyond myself. Would you be willing to go on this ride with me?

And here are, here's the exchange of this commitment. You know, here's what my responsibilities are and here's what your responsibilities are. And it's a collaborative effort and it will be a 2-month commitment. Commitment? Do you have time and do you have space to do this? You know?

And so that was how I got the 8. It wasn't by any mass marketing. It was through people I knew. And actually, to be honest, even if I was to do it all over again, you know, something that wasn't a beta test and it was actually a product to sell, you know, I would do the same approach because I think in the beginning of time, it's very unlikely you have a big list and a big audience. And actually your community is your list. We forget that.

We forget that there's lots of people that have known you for many years. You don't have to explain yourself and convince people you're awesome. Like, you know, they already know that. So you just have to actually tap into to your, like, you know, what my, my coach Pam Slim calls your watering holes. Like you already, you have social equity built there. You've got trust built there.

Like these are the best people to actually invest in you, you know? So start there and actually like do great work instead of actually hiding behind things like lead generation activities or Facebook ads. Cause you know, it's a, it's a longer road for those things and approaching people one-on-one is very effective.

[44:19] Paul: That's incredible. I love this approach. I did something similar, but not as, um, I didn't consciously do it, just kind of happened. But I love how you approached it because you, you basically said, all right, all right, I'm not going to do like a coaching certification. I'm just going to start coaching. And you created, you created a 64-hour program for you, right?

For yourself, right? Yeah. Plus like all the time you're spending like learning and challenging yourself and it's just an incredible approach and. It's kind of how I push people to do it too, is like tapping into their network. Like everyone has 100 friends and family they can email and say, I'm doing this journey, I'm scared shitless, and like come help me if you think I might be able to offer some value. And people are always so surprised that people are like just waiting to be asked.

[45:11] Lydia Lee: Totally. And also, you know, to me it's kind of a responsible way to create great work because, you know, just like when we used to go to university Like we didn't question doing school for 4 years and having, you know, a $50,000 student loan debt, you know, and potentially not even pay it off. Right. And get a job that, you know, there was nothing was guaranteed in a lot of ways. Right. Once you graduated.

Right. Uh, and, and, and we were fine with that because that was just normal. Right. Everyone does that. But then when it comes to business, people are like, I need to start making money like today, or it's a failure. And we forget about like this mastery period where we actually have to be good at our work, where we actually like have to stop trying to look good with having great Instagram accounts and actually start to be good in the work, which requires you to do work with people.

Right. And so this internship piece, right, of this, like, whatever it was, 2 months for me, for example, and continue to be, to be honest, I'm learning all the time, right. In my coaching practice. But in that beginning, it was an internship period. It was a moment that I had to be humble and be like, I don't know everything. And I will have to take more time researching techniques, right.

Learning how to do exercises, learning how to give people challenges, learning how to deal with conflict, learning how to deal with emotional breakdowns, you know, and things like that in order to like understand what was that framework of my process or my steps, you know, or my concepts that will now be a product that has been validated in some way, right? That's been gone through by another human beyond myself. And I think if we don't invest that time, what we do start doing is we start, start to market things and then we're not confident in what we're actually doing. So we don't market it. Market strongly anyway, because we're sort of like, we hope that funnel works. But then when it comes to like someone getting on a call and being like, why should I hire you again?

You sort of don't have any like evidence to pull from, you know, that can really give you that confidence boost. So I think sometimes we have to take that humble pie and go, when we start entrepreneurship, we are an intern for the first year in our business. And we have to do the dirty work. We have to do all the housekeeping and learn things and be a student again. And that overnight success best is just not reality, you know? And hence why I tell people to do this while they're still working, so that, you know, they're not resentful when they quit, you know, to expect income right away.

And then sometimes that passion they have fizzles because all of a sudden your passion has become a burden to your livelihood, you know?

[47:30] Paul: I love that. I'd love to ask you about your use of language. So I think you use some, uh, words that just kind of awaken my mind. Like escape the shackles of conventional work, escape the rat race. And then you said you like asking people what's the point of their existence. So where does this bold use of language— I know you have a background in marketing, but where does this come from and how do you think about putting your message out there?

[48:02] Lydia Lee: I thought for a minute there you were going to say, I want to question you and your profanity.

[48:05] Paul: No, no, no, no.

[48:08] Lydia Lee: Sometimes if people read my blogs and things like that. I was going to say I was very careful in this podcast in case you have some sort of less than PG-13 sort of rating. I guess I'm quite expressive in the way that I say things, like my tone of voice, and I am quite a no-bullshit kind of person. I don't like to use woo-woo words, and I primarily don't beat around the bush, and I sort of get to the point. In that sense, In a sense, the way that I write is usually the way that I talk. There's something around storytelling that I really like.

Every time I talk about a concept or even a technical bit, I use analogies and story to explain the point, which I think helps to get people remembering things. Instead of like, "Break free, unshackle yourself," it is a very visual word, isn't it? You can imagine yourself in the golden handcuffs and breaking free for the first time. I do like to play with words. And I am getting a lot better at it in a lot of ways when I don't overthink sometimes as well. And yeah, I have no idea how these words sometimes come into play, but it's usually from me being fired up about something.

And then I sort of try to record those things as much as possible and then pick words that sort of are strong statements or strong descriptors, right? That can sort of help you visualize the concept rather than these sorts of airy-fairy words.

[49:32] Paul: Yeah, I love it. And so I'm sure you get this question a lot, or maybe people don't ask, but the purple pineapples, I love them. Like, is there a story behind the pineapples? And for people that are listening in audio, like, you have to click through to go to her website. She has the most, like, incredible imagery and branding with purple pineapples, fruits. Hopefully that will get people to your site, but is there a story behind all this?

[50:03] Lydia Lee: Well, I mean, I guess the pineapples and the tropical theme applies to a lot of like what my lifestyle is like these days, right? I'm a small-town girl. The island life really suits me. I really love— this would be like a whole new podcast episode, but like there's so much I've learned from living in Bali, from the culture and the way people operate here and the presence that that the people have here, which has really changed my own definition of how I use my time, how I think, how I work on my emotional intelligence by living here. And I love Bali as really— I don't, to be honest, remember what life was like before Bali, because I really feel like I'm finally living a life that I have created, like consciously.

So whereas everything else felt like a bit of a sleepwalking, walking episode, you know, where I was just like going through life, but not really conscious, you know, and just sort of doing things. And so I guess a lot of that tropical vibe and the pineapples really represent this like newfound zest for life that I have with my life and my business. The other thing is, you know, when my retreat participants come, you know, I host a couple of retreats a year in Bali and they come here to incubate and to take a sabbatical with me. And, you know, it's a space to sort of think about some of these big questions that you never get to think about in between Netflix and your gym appointments. And commutes, right? And someone had sort of mentioned once at a retreat, like, you know, you're kind of like a pineapple.

You're like really sharp on the outside, like kind of blunt and, you know, like a force of nature. Cause I'm quite small. I'm 5'3", you know, like you're like this, like kind of like, you know, go-getter, like spicy hot tamale, right? But in the inside, like when you actually spend a lot of time with you, like a lot of your, you know, no bullshit advice and sort of your push and challenge to people comes from an intention of actually like really loving people and being very compassionate about that. And it was really lovely to hear because growing up as a sort of, you know, um, harder, you know, like sort of very masculine personality sometimes, I was always misunderstood a lot as like aggressive sometimes, you know.

Or, um, back in the day in high school, I would be bullied a bit on like, I never say things ladylike, you know, or something like that, which made me feel like, you know, I can't I can't speak my mind and be honest and open, and then I would be called a man. And so that was sort of my own personal sort of meaning around the pineapple is like, you could be like, looks like it's tough on the outside, but it's actually quite sweet on the inside, right? If you only open it up. And so that helps me sort of remember that actually it's okay to actually challenge people. People need that in the world. We need less fucking frou-frou things and you can do it.

Rah, rah, rah. We actually We need people to challenge people on what they're doing. And actually sometimes it's tough love. Sometimes it isn't nice, you know, it feels nice, but that's the commitment I have to my clients to point out perspective that, you know, it's going to challenge them. It's going to make them feel uncomfortable, you know, because as Susan David says, right? Sorry, Susan David says, uh, in, you know, uh, in her TED Talk, it's like, you know, um, discomfort is the, the price of admission.

Condition of a meaningful life, right? Like, if you want a meaningful life, you've got to get uncomfortable. And if people around them aren't helping them get uncomfortable, or they themselves don't have the stomach to make themselves uncomfortable, like, that's the job, that's the experiences I create, that's the, the outlet that I create for them so that they can explore these things safely and not be judged if they made a mistake, and, and still hear the truth but are supported in doing the work, right? Not just like yelling at you and then goodbye, right? Like, it's not— there's no yelling, you It's like very much a collaborative experience and it's very much not an easy thing to do, right? But I'm very drawn to helping people do difficult things.

It's just the thing I like, right?

[53:50] Paul: I love it. People need more pineapple in their life.

[53:53] Lydia Lee: They need more pineapples.

[53:56] Paul: I really just love the courage so much and I think given that you've really found something that brings you alive, it doesn't come across as prickly anymore. I think it comes across as like super genuine, maybe because I'm, I'm part of the converted, but I think it's fantastic. So I'd love to leave people with something. Maybe what is one of the exercises in your retreats or conversations with people that really helps people shift their minds in terms of like what might be possible? Is there something that jumps out or a framing that has helped people or an article or something?

[54:37] Lydia Lee: Yeah, actually what would probably be helpful is one of the big questions that I get a lot is like, yeah, I want to quit my job, but then what work should I then start to replace my income? Right? Like, great question. Of course you're not going to be motivated to leap if you don't know what you're leaping into. So I have actually a really great like free training that I just break this down. There's an accompanying guide workbook that sort of helps with these puzzle pieces of questioning and identification.

And this This is the What Business Should I Start training, you know, just really to the point. So I can give that to you guys. It's free. You know, you'll get it. You can watch the webinars about probably 90 minutes long. And then it comes with this workbook you can work on, right?

After you're done with it, which can help you to define a niche and help you to define a path or a focus or a direction for work. Now, as I said, you know, one of the things that I don't believe in is job titles, right? Like to me, we all have a body of work. Like all your work has meant something. It's all actually quite purposeful. But they're sort of the next chapter, the next branch on your tree that you want to expand into, right?

Or amplify. And sometimes, you know, the reason why we don't know the answer of like, what work should I be doing next? Or what business should I be starting? It's also very likely because we're unaware of what our strongest skills are. And we look at skills in a lot of ways of like technical stuff. Like I can write, I can website, you know, design, and I can do this and that.

And they're again, titles, resume skills, resume skills. But to me, it's a bit more higher level than that. That is sort of like more like ingredients, you know, that like actually you don't have to give up. So if you're like, I'm a great copywriter, you know, and I'm a great web designer, right? You can actually like have both happen in your business, right? Like you can actually, it's better because then you don't stick out as just like some ordinary, you know, Jill and Joe.

Like you're, you're someone that comes with a suite of skills that actually can amplify your primary skill even much more strongly. You And I think that's super important. So what the first thing that, you know, you'll learn from that webinar is first we have to take stock, right? Because most people don't, they just sort of been working and worked in an industry and they know themselves as just like, I'm an accountant, right? That's all I do. But actually there's a lot of things that you do as an accountant or different versions of roles in accounting that actually, if you extract some of the things that you do day to day, like You know, like the fact that you can make like an intangible skill for accountants sometimes is like, they can make like something complicated, like financials really digestible for regular humans that are afraid of numbers.

So there's something like really sympathetic or empathetic about you where you can be like, don't worry. Like, look at this, the analogy of how we budget for you. Like instead of going to spreadsheet mode and like, you know, like all the forecasting, right? You're going to do a lot more like managing the emotional feeling people have around their money, let's say, right? Or making them feel more comfortable about making money an ally rather than the enemy, right? You have a special thing to do that.

Now, not all accountants can do that, you see?

[57:35] Paul: Yeah.

[57:35] Lydia Lee: So you have to know, know that and acknowledge that that part of your skill of being an accountant is really valuable. And I really enjoy it and actually comes really naturally to me. And that's some things to sort of extract from your job titles. And you'll start to see you have a whole bag of skills that you might wanna bring forth, right? Or, right, bring into your next ideas if necessary.

[57:56] Paul: I love that. Ingredients. Yeah, pineapples.

[58:00] Lydia Lee: Yeah.

[58:00] Paul: So, so many good, so many good things we're leaving with people with today. Where do you want to direct people if they want to connect with you or learn more about what you're doing?

[58:12] Lydia Lee: Yeah, so as promised, you know, when we just talked about this free training, I'll give you the link for it. You're more than welcome to add it to to the page or wherever that, that we do it. Uh, and then where people can actually just get more free stuff and actually just check out like what we're doing for work to help people transition, right, from corporate is to go to screwthecubicle.com. Uh, that's sort of where, um, the home, right, of everything that I do. So a lot of my video interviews are on there. You'll see my YouTube channel that's on there.

Um, and we do sort of monthly video interviews and monthly video learnings around some of that identity crisis moments and imposter syndrome. And you know, all the things that are just not always about business is really about the human during change, which is super important to talk about, right, and explore and be honest about during that time. So if you go to screwthecubicle.com, you know, there's some free resources there that you can sign up for. Obviously you can get a hold of me there as well. I answer every single email that comes through from our website. It takes a long time sometimes, but I do actually really care about learning more about what happens with people when they're about to make this leap.

So a lot of it is market research for for me, but I too want to have a conversation with you. You know, I want to know, you know, like where you're at, because everybody's next step or what leap, you know, path they need to get into is different, you know? And I'd rather be giving much more tailored advice rather than like, you know, just go do the 6-step plan and you too will be successful. Like that is so disingenuous and not true, you know, easier to sell and scale, but I wouldn't be doing my job if it was so cookie cutter. Like that.

[59:43] Paul: I love it. I— that totally resonates. And we need less 6-step ebooks and more human connection and kindness.

[59:51] Lydia Lee: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, if anyone loves Bali, I mean, I hold my retreat every April, you know, which is called Your Next Big Thing. So it's for people who are like, what should I do next with my life? And how do I have this time and space to take this break, to take a pause, that sabbatical, a mini sabbatical with like-minded people, to actually explore some of these questions that we don't ask ourselves, right, about what is that plan can, you know, to make income, to have a different lifestyle, you know, to have much more of what we envision to be meaningful in our lives, and start to actually think about that and plan the right activities and actions to help bring that into fruition, right? So I think that's great for people to get out of their normal environment, right? That's what we need for change, to not be in a routine, right?

Routine is what kills creativity, right? And to be back in nature again and actually be somewhere new. And experience new cultures and new people in a place like Bali in order to, you know, help you cultivate that dreaming visionary part of you that's been dormant for so long, you know, stuck in routine, and actually give you a space to explore those ideas.

[01:00:55] Paul: Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I would not be surprised if you have some people reaching out to you, but thanks again for your passion and the work you're doing out out there.

[01:01:06] Lydia Lee: Yeah, thanks, Paul. I really enjoyed this conversation.

[01:01:11] Paul: Thank you for listening to the Boundless Podcast. If you have feedback, guest suggestions, or ideas I should explore, I'd really love to hear from you. One of the best things about this journey I've been on is connecting with all the people from around the world who are resonating with some of the ideas, some crazy, some better, some worse, that I'm putting out into the world. You can email me at paul@think-boundless.com or find me on the various socials which I link on my site. So I'm focused on keeping this podcast ad-free, clear of requests for ratings on various platforms. Basically, I just want to keep it useful, interesting, and worth listening to.